Fighting U-Turn Ticket on Aug 3rd, need advice

[frizzlefry]

Hello all,

I had posted about this U-Turn ticket some time ago and the general consensus was to fight it. So I signed the ticket indicating a not guilty plea and sent it back to the Red Deer courts. Now my court date is this Tuesday and, never having been to traffic court, I thought I would ask some advice on what to say. Simply put, I entered a controlled intersection from the left turning lane and had a green light. Except the turn lane leads no where...no road to turn on to. So I was stuck in the intersection. Traffic was fairly heavy and there were a couple of cars turning left in front of me so any opening I could take to get back into the lanes that go straight would have also been attempted by the cars turning left in front of me. So I did what I thought was safest, no traffic coming straight toward me so I pulled a U-Turn and then got pulled over. I have as evidence my clean 10 year drivers abstract and these photos I took of the intersection, taken from the same direction I was heading that day:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37239394@N06/4839587742/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37239394@N06/4839588118/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37239394@N06/4839588506/sizes/l/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37239394@N06/4839588956/sizes/l/in/photostream/

So, if the cop shows up, I am thinking that the last thing I want is to give him opportunities to explain, in whatever way he can, that the ticket was justified. So my plan is to just ask him what lane I entered the intersection from and what road the turning lane turns onto (nothing) and that’s it. My main defence will be that I was stuck in a catch22. No road to turn on, if I turned onto that dirt "driveway" and pulled a 3 pointer (off the road) so I could re-enter the intersection, I would be entering a controlled intersection the wrong way, without any lights to give me right of way. Option 2, change lanes in the intersection and continue straight. Which, given the cars turning left from the opposite turning lane gunning for any openings I could have taken, could have resulted in a ticket for an unsafe lane change due to someone having to hit their brakes to let me in....that or I would have hit someone turning into the same opening.

Thoughts? I know that the law is vague but lane changes in an intersection are a no-no in every drivers ed guide I could find. So, final argument, I was in a catch-22 due to the poor design of the intersection. No matter what I say, I pulled a U-Turn at a controlled intersection which is illegal...but I did what I thought was safest...can safety trump the law?

[[Yu]]

Originally posted by frizzlefry


My main defence will be that I was stuck in a catch22. No road to turn on, if I turned onto that dirt "driveway" and pulled a 3 pointer (off the road) so I could re-enter the intersection, I would be entering a controlled intersection the wrong way, without any lights to give me right of way.
T

Well, I guess you are doing what was safe for you, but the point where you said "I would be entering a controlled intersection the wrong way, without any lights to give me right of way. " is somewhat wrong. In Edmonton, many intersections only have a set of lights going in one direction, so I don't see whats wrong with entering a intersection because you don't have any lights. As you clearly have shown that the traffic lights indeed do turn red, so you may enter.

I know that it all happened very fast so I'm not really judging you, but ideally turning onto that dirt road then doing a 3-point turn would be the correct and legal approach I believe.

[frizzlefry]

Thats my biggie concern right there....in Calgary where I live, if you are at a controlled intersection looking at the back of a set of traffic lights without any lights facing you to provide direction, you are going the wrong way and will get busted.

[frizzlefry]

Well, I figure my best argument will be that the current state of the intersection is not by design. Traffic was not intended to turn onto the side of the road and try and pull a 3-point turn. Traffic was intended to turn onto an access road for the SouthPointe Junction (billboard advertisement seen in the pictures I posted), a series of shops and college access. Construction to start spring 2010. The project fell through and has been delayed. Instead of closing the turning lane, Red Deer just left it there. If that turning lane led me off a cliff, the RCMP would be investigating criminal charges against the city of Red Deer for leaving the turn lane open. But it lead me into a U-Turn which the RCMP have decided should be my fault and not Red Deer's. The left turn lane would lead to the development, if it actually existed.
http://www.qualicocommercial.com/assets/pdf/sp_junction_plan.pdf

[Barlow]

In Calgary and Alberta AFAIK U Turns are illegal at all Controlled intersections,

Traffic Light would mean controlled.


I'd still fight it though, you got nothing to lose!!!


Barlow

[JordanAndrew]

Originally posted by Barlow
In Calgary and Alberta AFAIK U Turns are illegal at all Controlled intersections,

Traffic Light would mean controlled.


I'd still fight it though, you got nothing to lose!!!


Barlow

Pretty sure OP knows it is illegal. It's just the fact that the left turn led to a dead end leaving him with no choice but to do to a u-turn.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Barlow
In Calgary and Alberta AFAIK U Turns are illegal at all Controlled intersections,

Traffic Light would mean controlled.


I'd still fight it though, you got nothing to lose!!!


Barlow

That’s what I figure. I DID break the law. No argument there. But there were extenuating circumstances. It’s unreasonable for crown to expect drivers to improvise due to a turn lane that leads no where, especially considering the turn lane was supposed to lead to a mall complex, not a dirt driveway for 3 point turns (if that is what they expect drivers to do). At the end of the day, my goal is to make sure that the ticket is in no way profitable for the city of Red Deer. Just fighting it hopefully cost them more than the fine.

[[Yu]]

Originally posted by JordanAndrew


Pretty sure OP knows it is illegal. It's just the fact that the left turn led to a dead end leaving him with no choice but to do to a u-turn.

He had a choice, but at the heat of the moment, he thought what he did was the correct choice, and no shame in thinking that way.

Frizzle, what do you mean you are facing the back of a traffic light, all you have to do is look at the adjacent lights (left and right) to see if they are green or not. Thats the biggest argument I see coming back from the police officer if you said that the traffic light was the issue.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by [Yu]


He had a choice, but at the heat of the moment, he thought what he did was the correct choice, and no shame in thinking that way.

Frizzle, what do you mean you are facing the back of a traffic light, all you have to do is look at the adjacent lights (left and right) to see if they are green or not. Thats the biggest argument I see coming back from the police officer if you said that the traffic light was the issue.

Pulling out of the dirt "driveway" I can see the lights for traffic going left and right. But its a T intersection. So there is also a lane of traffic heading into the intersection facing me if I were leaving that dirt driveway. I would not be able to see the light status of them and if I screwed up it would be a head-on collision. You can see their light in the 2nd pic I posted.

[Wrinkly]

Surely the sensible thing to have done, would've been to pull on to the dirt road and then just get back into the flow of traffic when safe to do so - even if it means you are going in the opposite direction that you originally intended :dunno:

From the photo's the OP posted, it's pretty obvious there is no road there anyway, so I fail to see how this even happened in the first place. But since it already has, I think your intended approach (OP) is reasonable, and wish you luck with it. I'll be interested to know how this plays out.

[euro_racer]

your best bet at fighting this ticket....postpone the court date on the day before, make up some kind of story about going away or family related. the new trial will be most likely mid-next year and by then the cop will most likely forget about you or not bother showing up and you get out of the ticket....this method has been tested and proven, works aprox 7/10 times lol :angel:

[Blue-Wolf]

I guess my question would be this... If you had pulled in to the dirt road, COULD you have safely turned around and re-entered the interesection? From what I see in the pics, you would have caused damage to public property with you vehicle had you tried to turn around there, otherwise, Backing up in to traffic wouldn't have been a safe option either, if you had gone on to the small dirt driveway. Only safe option I could see is a U-Turn when it was safe to do so. Another question would be... Have they caught others doing the same thing in this location? If so, why has the lane not been blocked off to prevent further incidents and possible unsafe conditions for other drivers caught in this very same situation?

Just my 2 cents.

[topmade]

You will have to prove that there was nothing legal you could do to get out of the situation. I'm not 100% on these rules, but do some reasearch on them and this is what I think.

- First off make sure there was no signage before the lane starts that no left turns could be made. Is it legal to make uturns after intersections?

- There is a solid white line at the turn light meaning it would be illegal to try to get into the right lane and go straight at that point so you had to turn.

- If you turn in anyways, there is no posted U-turn sign so it would be illegal to do a U-turn there anyways.

[frizzlefry]

Well I went. Here is what happened...
- Got there and waited in the courtroom with everyone else waiting to fight their tickets.
- All the RCMP cops there to testify were waiting just outside the door. I heard them laughing and making fun of everyone who was exercising their right to defend themselves, including me. The cop who pulled me over was having a laugh telling everyone that my gps told me to pull the u-turn (which is not true, I told him that the damn thing kept telling me too U-Turn but I knew I could not so I went into the left lane to turn onto the non-existent road to find some way to get to the highway). They also made fun of another defendant’s accent.
- My turn came up and the prosecutor asked the cop the usual questions. You never lost sight of him, what kind of car etc etc.
- I cross examined him and asked him what lane I entered the intersection from. He said the left turn lane. I asked what road that lane turns onto. He said "A dirt driveway" I presented my photos and everyone agreed that’s what it turns onto.
- I asked the cop if he knows if you can pull a 3-point turn from that driveway without backing into the intersection, he replied "I don't know". I asked if you could pull a 3-point turn in that driveway without driving off the road on the grass in a car he replied "I don't know"
- I proposed that it’s not reasonable to expect motorists to have to improvise a 3-point turn off the road due to a turn lane that they may or may not be able to pull off without driving off the road or backing into the intersection.
- I was feeling pretty good. The cop himself said he was not sure if you could safely pull a three point turn in that driveway. The prosecutor had the pathetic argument that I should have known it went nowhere by looking to the other side of the road. I told him I am not in the habit of taking my eyes off the road to double-check to see if identified turn lanes lead anywhere. I told him I noticed as I got right up to the intersection but by then I had a solid white line and could not change lanes.
- So, in the end, the cop saying "I don’t know" when asked if I could have safely turned around in that driveway means reasonable doubt to me. Not the Judge. Guilty. Full fine. He said he "Did not imagine that I would be breaking any laws by driving off the road, on the grass, to turn around" and enter an intersection the wrong way. (I think he ignored that argument I made, you would be entering the intersection potentially facing oncoming traffic, depending on the lights, which you can’t see all of.
I have lost respect for the RCMP for their behaviour before court took session, especially the way they made fun of that lady's accent (very much like the high school jock making fun of nerds in the locker room), and I have lost respect for the courts. There was clearly reasonable doubt in what the safest thing to do was. Pointts told me there are two judges in Dead Rear, one is very fair and the other thinks the RCMP can do no wrong. I got the later. I did manage jam 2 RCMP lidar traps on the way home. Which made me feel a bit better. Won't feel any regret doing that anymore! :)

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
Well I went. Here is what happened...
- Got there and waited in the courtroom with everyone else waiting to fight their tickets.
- All the RCMP cops there to testify were waiting just outside the door. I heard them laughing and making fun of everyone who was exercising their right to defend themselves, including me. The cop who pulled me over was having a laugh telling everyone that my gps told me to pull the u-turn (which is not true, I told him that the damn thing kept telling me too U-Turn but I knew I could not so I went into the left lane to turn onto the non-existent road to find some way to get to the highway). They also made fun of another defendant’s accent.
- My turn came up and the prosecutor asked the cop the usual questions. You never lost sight of him, what kind of car etc etc.
- I cross examined him and asked him what lane I entered the intersection from. He said the left turn lane. I asked what road that lane turns onto. He said "A dirt driveway" I presented my photos and everyone agreed that’s what it turns onto.
- I asked the cop if he knows if you can pull a 3-point turn from that driveway without backing into the intersection, he replied "I don't know". I asked if you could pull a 3-point turn in that driveway without driving off the road on the grass in a car he replied "I don't know"
- I proposed that it’s not reasonable to expect motorists to have to improvise a 3-point turn off the road due to a turn lane that they may or may not be able to pull off without driving off the road or backing into the intersection.
- I was feeling pretty good. The cop himself said he was not sure if you could safely pull a three point turn in that driveway. The prosecutor had the pathetic argument that I should have known it went nowhere by looking to the other side of the road. I told him I am not in the habit of taking my eyes off the road to double-check to see if identified turn lanes lead anywhere. I told him I noticed as I got right up to the intersection but by then I had a solid white line and could not change lanes.
- So, in the end, the cop saying "I don’t know" when asked if I could have safely turned around in that driveway means reasonable doubt to me. Not the Judge. Guilty. Full fine. He said he "Did not imagine that I would be breaking any laws by driving off the road, on the grass, to turn around" and enter an intersection the wrong way. (I think he ignored that argument I made, you would be entering the intersection potentially facing oncoming traffic, depending on the lights, which you can’t see all of.
I have lost respect for the RCMP for their behaviour before court took session, especially the way they made fun of that lady's accent (very much like the high school jock making fun of nerds in the locker room), and I have lost respect for the courts. There was clearly reasonable doubt in what the safest thing to do was. Pointts told me there are two judges in Dead Rear, one is very fair and the other thinks the RCMP can do no wrong. I got the later. I did manage jam 2 RCMP lidar traps on the way home. Which made me feel a bit better. Won't feel any regret doing that anymore! :)


You don't know much about law I suppose from what you posted about reasonable doubt....

And p.s. I'm assuming you were speeding on the way home? OP your ticket was justified, you should have went on the dirt road and turned its not that dificult.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Type_S1

OP your ticket was justified, you should have went on the dirt road and turned its not that dificult.

I'd agree, from your previous thread, you made it sound like the gate was right up against the road, but there's clearly enough room to turn around there.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have U-turned as well, but you definitely didn't have a chance fighting this one.

As for the RCMP... who do you think they were in H.S.? Positions of authority attract a certain breed.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Type_S1



You don't know much about law I suppose from what you posted about reasonable doubt....

And p.s. I'm assuming you were speeding on the way home? OP your ticket was justified, you should have went on the dirt road and turned its not that dificult.

Actually I was not speeding. Anyways, maybe I could have without bottoming out. I'm not about to try. I will say that many cars with a lower suspension won't be able to turn in there. Period. My boss's Genisis would get hung up without a doubt. So I guess they should post signs that in order to navigate the streets of Red Deer you can't have a sports car as they may require you to drive off road from time to time.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


I'd agree, from your previous thread, you made it sound like the gate was right up against the road, but there's clearly enough room to turn around there.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have U-turned as well, but you definitely didn't have a chance fighting this one.

As for the RCMP... who do you think they were in H.S.? Positions of authority attract a certain breed.

Thought I would try at least. In order to turn in that driveway you would have to drive on the grass to avoid backing into the intersection...I would have thought that a cop who saw it every day would have said "Yes you can turn in there safely" but he didn't...."I don't know"...well, I did not know either, I was not about to try.

And the RCMP does attract a certain breed. The ones in Red Deer anyways. Got pulled over years ago by a BC RCMP officer. Really nice guy, let me off with a warning. So its not universal. But the Red Deer RCMP certainly fit the stereotype.

[16hypen3sp]

Originally posted by frizzlefry
Thoughts? I know that the law is vague but lane changes in an intersection are a no-no in every drivers ed guide I could find. So, final argument, I was in a catch-22 due to the poor design of the intersection. No matter what I say, I pulled a U-Turn at a controlled intersection which is illegal...but I did what I thought was safest...can safety trump the law?

BUMP!

My god am I glad I found this! I drive Taylor Drive all the time. I have never had to pull a U-turn here or drive on the grass, but I have always wondered what would happen in this exact situation... now I know.

I know what you mean about the two judges in RD. I have had both. The one always lets you off, and the other always convicts you. Pretty brutal. The RC's in this town are definitely brutal as well.

Anyways, the reason I found this is because I want to know more about changing lanes in an intersection. I know it's been said that its vague. I have heard that its legal and some guy is chirping at me saying that its "cut and dry ILLEGAL".... so what is it exactly???

I couldn't find anything in the Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation.

[JordanAndrew]

Pretty sure it's not illegal, just not recommended.

[desto2para]

topic has came up already...

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?threadid=241475

Why would you want to change lanes through a intersection? That's kind of a douchebag move IMO

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by 16hypen3sp


BUMP!

My god am I glad I found this! I drive Taylor Drive all the time. I have never had to pull a U-turn here or drive on the grass, but I have always wondered what would happen in this exact situation... now I know.

I know what you mean about the two judges in RD. I have had both. The one always lets you off, and the other always convicts you. Pretty brutal. The RC's in this town are definitely brutal as well.

Anyways, the reason I found this is because I want to know more about changing lanes in an intersection. I know it's been said that its vague. I have heard that its legal and some guy is chirping at me saying that its "cut and dry ILLEGAL".... so what is it exactly???

I couldn't find anything in the Use of Highway and Rules of the Road Regulation.

It's legal in Alberta as far as I know. Illegal in some other provinces.

In my case (wow blast from the past) I could not execute the lane change safely. A couple people turning left in front of me, I cannot be confident that they can predict my behaviour if I change lanes suddenly. So without anyone coming at me heading the opposite direction I pulled the U-Turn. Lost the court case but don't regret it at all. It was the safest thing to do and I would do it again. A fine is nothing compared to an accident.

Got the RCMP officer to admit he was not sure if you could safely pull a 3-point turn in there. And he sees it every day. Judge still figured a reasonable person would have pulled the 3-pointer in the dirt and reversed into a controlled intersection without any right of way. *snort*

But in the end I never got hit with demerits. Just the money. So I suppose that says something in this day and age when people rarely get demerits dropped.