Religion, Politics and the End of the World [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

Modelexis

08-05-2010, 09:57 AM

I didn't really like the debate that much, I thought that Harris gave the religious guy WAY too much slack and divergence.

In the start of the debate it sounded like Harris was doing a great job of laying out his position and the typical noise that gets thrown at it and why it's not to be given credit.

Then goes onto make a great argument that the moderator seemed to agree with and posed a tough question to the religious guy.

Next what happened was the religious guy went on a big rant about nothing, a bit cloud of fog and make believe, hoping to dodge the question.

Then was able to turn out a few questions to Sam which sadly hooked him and kept him busy and forgetting about and getting off track of the key points he made at the start.

Sam allowed him to get into statistics and opinion and all these junk, he didn't even force the religious guy to give a clear stance or define god or ANYTHING.

The religious guy who is obviously well acquainted with the culture and had superior experience was able to transform the debate into a political one rather than a religious one.

Brutal debate, the religious guy said god is a verb, which is not true and i doubt this is what he thinks, unless he's a massive troll, and then goes on to tossing political and opinion based comments until Sam responds and wastes time trying to conquer.

Sam uses the 'weapons of mass destruction' argument to toss at religion, but I don't think its helpful to go that far with religion, IMO he should have stuck with removing credit from religion rather than going on opinion quests about what it is capable of or what it has done in the past.
BUT he should have just not given that much credit to the religious view, simply telling the guy his god doesn't exist would be a fine way to hover around.
There wasn't enough establishing of views being put to the religious nut.

I don't even think it's healthy to debate religious people, by offering a debate you are giving them the credit of having a possibility of winning the debate.
We don't debate the existence of unicorns because that would give them a vague ounce of possible credit, which they don't deserve.

Xtrema

08-05-2010, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by DRKM
Sam Harris is an amazing speaker and writer. I love how calm he is throughout the whole thing.

He did lose it at a few points but in a calm way. Comparing religion to Nazism is straight trolling.

While we are on the subject of religion.....

xrjOEKxwhlI

Nusc

08-05-2010, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Xtrema

He did lose it at a few points but in a calm way. Comparing religion to Nazism is straight trolling.

While we are on the subject of religion.....

American Fascists, Chris Hedges on The Hour (CBC)

Dycker

08-05-2010, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Nusc
...
Chris Hedges compared christian fundies to fascists, not religion to nazism in general.

Nusc, please stop.

Xtrema

08-05-2010, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Nusc

American Fascists, Chris Hedges on The Hour (CBC)
...

Dycker nailed it. You are against religion and you are an atheist, I get it. Religions need more Chris Hedges and less Pat Robertson or Al Sharpton. The morals religion teaches are good. Mindless following one's opinions based strictly on faith is bad.

Modelexis

08-05-2010, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Xtrema
Mindless following one's opinions based strictly on faith.

You just described every religion that has ever existed.

hmm
Also, the fact that religious texts contain debatable moral laws doesn't say anything about the existence of a god.
I accept the 'strong atheist' position as true in that I know for certain there is no god.

Dycker

08-05-2010, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Xtrema
Religions need more Chris Hedges and less Pat Robertson or Al Sharpton. The morals religion teaches are good. Mindless following one's opinions based strictly on faith is bad.

Originally posted by Modelexis
Also, the fact that religious texts contain debatable moral laws doesn't say anything about the existence of a god.
Voices of reason. :thumbsup:

Nusc

08-05-2010, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Dycker

Chris Hedges compared christian fundies to fascists, not religion to nazism in general.

Nusc, please stop.

Your analysis is wrong.

Given the ideological nature at the time, nazism had a religious elements to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism

Look at the hordes Hitler attracted during his speeches.

Nusc

08-05-2010, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Dycker

Voices of reason. :thumbsup:

First, while it may be obvious why Chris hedges is needed in the religious world, Xtrema does not say why.

Second, when he refers to the teachings of religious morals, not only do does he miss where they are derived from, he insists that are good.

Which religion is he referring to?

This is not reason.

Dycker

08-05-2010, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Nusc
Your analysis is wrong.

Given the ideological nature at the time, nazism had a religious elements to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...pects_of_Nazism

Look at the hordes Hitler attracted during his speeches.
My analysis of the video clip was spot on. He WAS mentioning ALL fascist states, not just the Nazis.

Originally posted by Nusc
First, while it may be obvious why Chris hedges is needed in the religious world, Xtrema does not say why.

Second, when he refers to the teachings of religious morals, not only do does he miss where they are derived from, he insists that are good.

Which religion is he referring to?

This is not reason.
I am saying Xtrema and Modelexis are voices of reason, not Chris Hedges.

Please tell me why are you arguing against a video you posted? Were you merely mistaken by what the two nice people in the video were talking about? Could it be that you are posting videos at random to troll for a bite??

DRKM

08-06-2010, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by Xtrema

The morals religion teaches are good.

Hahahaha. Are you serious? Which morals would that be? Condoning slavery? Condoning human trafficking? Waging war with non-believers?

I am at a loss here...

kvg

08-06-2010, 10:59 AM

nusc your the reason why crazy homeless shouldnt people have smart phones. Dammit man sell it and buy a sandwich! You can't keep a thought together. btw tinfoil hats are are cheap because they don't work.
Later hater:burnout:

kvg

08-06-2010, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by DRKM

Hahahaha. Are you serious? Which morals would that be? Condoning slavery? Condoning human trafficking? Waging war with non-believers?

I am at a loss here...
They still do that shit and it's not for religion it's for profit or in wars case "security and human rights" religions just a BS excuse.
Religion is a crutch for the weak and a excuse for the crooked.

Xtrema

08-06-2010, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by DRKM

Hahahaha. Are you serious? Which morals would that be? Condoning slavery? Condoning human trafficking? Waging war with non-believers?

I am at a loss here...

More like the ten commandments. You need more Chris Hedges to weed out all other crazy shit.

Originally posted by kvg
Religion is a crutch for the weak and a excuse for the crooked.

Unfortunately, that's how most religious organizations ended up to be. I'm not against people having faith as long as they have critical thinking to go along with it.

Originally posted by Nusc

First, while it may be obvious why Chris hedges is needed in the religious world, Xtrema does not say why.

Second, when he refers to the teachings of religious morals, not only do does he miss where they are derived from, he insists that are good.

Which religion is he referring to?

This is not reason.

I'm have only very basic knowledge in Christianity as I grew up in a catholic school system. I have not gone thru every page of the bible or quran to quote them like Sam or Chris. But Chris shows that there's enough critical thinking within him to know not to follow orders and actually question them. He's the type of religious people I respect. Not the sheep type that repeat everything told by pastor/priest/fox news personnel.

Are you telling me 'thou shall not steal' isn't something everyone should follow?

Again, stop thinking in absolutes. Everybody believes in something that eventually create conflicts. Religion is just one of the system that people love to bash on the most because it is the biggest belief system of them all.

kvg

08-06-2010, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Xtrema

I'm not against people having faith as long as they have critical thinking to go along with it.
I'm a not religiousperson or a believer and I agree completely:thumbsup:

Modelexis

08-06-2010, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by Xtrema
I'm not against people having faith as long as they have critical thinking to go along with it.

I'm gonna stop you there, maybe you didn't get my early comments in this regard, but I think you are missing the basic reality that religion, any religion is by definition anti-critical information.

It's not even the opposite of critical thinking, its anti-critical thinking.

You tell me how a person can use critical thinking to believe in a supernatural being.
(god by definition, no matter the religion is defined as a supernatural being that is all powerful and all knowing and has always existed)

I don't mean to be so argumentative, I just think it's important that we are accurate and precise when we use this lingo.

Xtrema

08-06-2010, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis
It's not even the opposite of critical thinking, its anti-critical thinking.

I know the 2 seems to contradict logically. But as I grow older and know more people, you start to meet the brillant people who remain religious but not fundies. It works for them and we are all better for it.

Not all religious people impose on others and not all are crazy fundamentalists. Sam Harris's extreme atheists view is also a form of fundamentalism who cater to people who believes there is no god.

I'm not here to say this is or isn't a god or whose god is the one true god. Neither side can prove or disprove their case. You just have to respect each others view and don't impose on each other. Everyone need a support system.

The fact that fundies keep getting on the news/blogs etc is polarizing the debate which is harder for moderates to exist.

Remember, there are Christians who support theory of evolution and gays. Both this and last pope also support evolution. They are just getting drown out by the crazies.

Modelexis

08-06-2010, 12:55 PM

To make my position more clear, I'm not saying all religious people are evil or nasty, I'm just saying that religion as a concept is by definition anti-rationality and you can be a perfectly rational person in every other area of your life other than religion.

I would disagree with your claim that neither side can make a valid argument.

I happen to think I have an overwhelmingly solid proof for the non-existence for any god.
I can prove my case in that regard, fully.

god by definition does not exist, something that is not composed of matter or energy and cannot be detected is by definition exactly the same as something that does not exist.

I have no problem with people saying the IDEA of a god is nice to think about and such, but when someone says they believe that god exists in the real world, this absolutely subject to the rationality of the senses and critical thinking that everything else in life is subject to.

This is sort of what I was getting at earlier when I was criticizing Sam for going too far into the debate unnecessarily when he can end the debate as soon as someone describes an entity and the definition includes non existence.

Xtrema

08-06-2010, 01:09 PM

Ok, I knew I should not bring god existence into the debate.

I agree religion is irrational and defy logic. But I am not downplaying the role of religion play in some people's lives. I denounce any fundamentalism of anything. I just don't believe in absolutes.

Modelexis

08-06-2010, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by Xtrema
I just don't believe in absolutes.

Is that an absolute statement? :D
I think you can see how confusing that claim is.

What I heard when I read that was "I don't believe 2+2 is always 4"

Xtrema

08-06-2010, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis
What I heard when I read that was "I don't believe 2+2 is always 4"

Basic math has been proven and leave very little room for error.

Move into quantum physics, then things become a bit more uncertain. But eventually thru science, we'll prove that sooner or later.

Modelexis

08-06-2010, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Xtrema

Basic math has been proven and leave very little room for error.

Move into quantum physics, then things become a bit more uncertain. But eventually thru science, we'll prove that sooner or later.

But we don't need to figure out the absolute answer to every question in the world before we can establish some absolutes.

Like we don't need to know quantum physics before we can make the absolute claim that 2+2=4

That's what I'm getting at with your position on religion, you're for some reason not willing to apply absolute knowledge about existence to god that you apply to every thing else in the world.

Also, there is something telling about how scientists actually attempt to understand quantum physics and it is something that can be worked out, while god is a complete waste of time and has no possibility of working out something that is by definition not in existence.

Nusc

08-06-2010, 09:40 PM

I forgot to add the Chris Hedges video so I added that later and I will post Hedges interview afterwards for which he makes false statements when he knew they weren't true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vdl_xNMTYvs
Vdl_xNMTYvs

The comments before this post:

I don't care about Hedges' comparison of fundamentalists to fascists.

I wasn't attempting to insult Xtrema but Dycker said the statement was a "voice of reason". It is clear, if you had read the statement that it is not.

Regarding the 'thou shall not steal' remark - I'm not here to debate subjectivism but if you're interested watch Michael Sandel's justice lectures.

One can point out that violence in the middle east has to do with the deep grievances from Israeli aggression toward the Palestinians.

But Sam Harris clearly points out that Islam gives the potential for someone to harm others, e.g. suicide bombing, as long as they rewarded in the after life.
NB: the 9/11 hijackers were college educated and came from middle class families.

He further suggests that religious moderation is bad theology as opposed to accepting the terms from literal reading of religious doctrine.

There are of course those who claim that religion can cause people to do 'good' things but to him the risks do not outweight the benefits.

To impose ideologies that potentially harm and discriminate other people makes religion an impediment to human progress.

After watching the above video, watch this one:

If you are following transhumanism, you can understand why.

These religious fundamentalists are an impediment to human progress by imposing socially conservative values through the state.

This is one of the reasons why we should shun the Conservatives. There are more reasons relevant to this discussion but I will not mention them here.

Sam Harris clearly points out, it's only politics because it's religion first.

Nusc

08-07-2010, 12:47 PM

wow

Dycker

08-08-2010, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Nusc
A mind like CUG is a disgrace to the human species.
Are you getting your vast number of rambling threads mixed up?

CUG hasn't even been apart of this thread's dicussion, but the thing is, every one of the threads you have started in this section pretty much are the same:

- You hate Republicans
- You hate Conservatives
- You hate Religion

Why not have just one thread that ties it all together instead of spamming?

There are quite a few people who regularly post in the section who would agree with you on all three of the above points. That is if you didn't come across as a troll and try to argue your points only using youtube videos of credible scholars.

A790

08-08-2010, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Nusc
A mind like CUG is a disgrace to the human species.
Wow. Let's call out a member who hasn't even posted in this thread for sake of theatrics.

Good for you. I bet you did great in your high school debate class :thumbsup:

CUG

08-08-2010, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Nusc
[B

A mind like CUG is a disgrace to the human species. [/B] This is probably the first non-ad hominem reply I've ever made to someone like you:

The nature of your statements is a little bit hypocritical. On one hand, you want everyone to open their mind and think for themselves, free of the tyranny that is anything non-liberal, but in that same move you won't make room for rough analysis of your propaganda.

I'm not offended by you, as I'm fully aware that you're projecting your frustration, which is coming from our successful exposure of your tactics, combined with the fact that no one is buying your political snake juice.

You devolved this engagement into what it is. Not I. :)

Thanks A790 and Dycker :thumbsup:

Nusc

08-08-2010, 08:36 PM

Sorry I shouldn't have written that but I just had to point it out.

I know that most people on this forum don't like to read long passages, nor respond to them; so I don't waste my time writing them especially when several can't be convinced of anything anyway. Hence I try to keep it simple.

CUG

08-08-2010, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Nusc
Sorry I shouldn't have written that but I just had to point it out.

I know that most people on this forum don't like to read long passages, nor respond to them; so I don't waste my time writing them especially when several can't be convinced of anything anyway. Hence I try to keep it simple.
I doubt the effectiveness of it, but you're fully entitled to all of that. My political polarity leans on the conservative side with certain issues, and on the liberal side with others. A heavy liberal flavor is just as dangerous as a conservative one.

You're applying the flood theory, which is similar to spam emails. If even one person reads and buys, you're making money, or in your case "becoming enlightened".

With the amount of spin being put on everything coming from parliament, I'm surprised such a studious individual like yourself would actually take the face-value of some of your content. You should know it's likely as bogus as heavy-bias conservative jive.

While liberals (like you) won't have religion shoved down their throats, they have no problem force-feeding their political prop. to people, using the same mediums and tools.

Quite the conundrum.

st184

08-09-2010, 12:29 AM

When CUG keeps shutting you down in your own crap threads why do you keep posting?

kvg

08-09-2010, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Nusc

A mind like CUG is a disgrace to the human species.

Originally posted by CUG

I doubt the effectiveness of it, but you're fully entitled to all of that. My political polarity leans on the conservative side with certain issues, and on the liberal side with others. A heavy liberal flavor is just as dangerous as a conservative one.

You're applying the flood theory, which is similar to spam emails. If even one person reads and buys, you're making money, or in your case "becoming enlightened".

With the amount of spin being put on everything coming from parliament, I'm surprised such a studious individual like yourself would actually take the face-value of some of your content. You should know it's likely as bogus as heavy-bias conservative jive.

While liberals (like you) won't have religion shoved down their throats, they have no problem force-feeding their political prop. to people, using the same mediums and tools.

Quite the conundrum.
NUSC GETS OWNED AGAIN!!!! OUCH!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Nusc

08-18-2010, 11:23 PM

frizzlefry

08-18-2010, 11:40 PM

I love "The Blank Slate; The Modern Denial of Human nature". I like reading Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens.

I also like pointing and laughing at religious nut jobs because they are dumb.

I also like pointing and laughing at liberals because they are, also, dumb.

One likes to take my money to spend on their causes. The other, aside from annoying me with how dumb they are, tend to leave my money alone. Guess which one I vote for.

Nusc

08-20-2010, 11:56 AM

What utter nonsense. You'll be taxed anyway and cutting the GST was not the wisest thing to do especially with all the Conservative spending.

On top of that, cutting the GST and cutting corporate taxes only favours corporate business.

Xtrema

08-20-2010, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Nusc
On top of that, cutting the GST and cutting corporate taxes only favours corporate business.

I have $1400 in my pocket favors me just fine.

And probably another $1000 when I need a new roof and various house renos later in the year.

frizzlefry

08-20-2010, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Nusc
What utter nonsense. You'll be taxed anyway and cutting the GST was not the wisest thing to do especially with all the Conservative spending.

On top of that, cutting the GST and cutting corporate taxes only favours corporate business.

Everyone pays GST genius. And Corporate business employs people. The more money they have, the more they spend on growth (if they are smart) which helps everyone who works for them. Here is my issue. I don't like American right wingers. They are idiots. Everyone knows that. And Day is a moron. Harper? He is not a camera person at all. But I would trust him with my tax money as opposed to Chretien. The conservatives are spending, true. But not funnelling my money to Liberal supporters in Quebec. My money is at least being spent on government projects. I may not agree with said projects as a voter but at least it’s legitimate. The liberals will do what it takes to get elected. Such as a similar tax cutting budget as the conservatives. You will never see a conservative pretend to be a liberal to get elected. The liberals are politicians. The conservatives are, well, conservatives. They are consistent. That’s why I voted for Ralph Klein. Hated the man. But he is honest. You knew what you were getting. All you had to do was ask what he thought and he would tell you. Chretien was an ass kisser. Him and the liberals lie, cheat, schmooze and do whatever they can to get elected. The NDP are the honest left wing party. And as a result never get elected. The conservatives are honest, stupid like everyone else in politics, but honest. The liberals are whatever they think the voters want them to be...during campaigns. Vote them in and Ontario and Quebec (the big have nots) start begging and pleading for equalization money and if they don't get it....look out. As a result I don't trust them. Plus, as I mentioned before, all members during ad-scam should be kicked out before I trust them again. I voted conservative because they are guaranteed to tax me less. To do anything else would be un-conservative...and they need to stick with that image. Consider it a vote not for the conservatives but against all other parties. The NDP are nuts and the liberals are liars, ready to bend to whatever they think will get them elected. I can't trust that.