Viper ACR Track Performance Debate

[5.9 R/T]

It's funny how vipers look so much bigger then they really are. I remember when i saw a viper for the first time i was amazed at how small it was. God those are sexy cars!

[rage2]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T
It's funny how vipers look so much bigger then they really are. I remember when i saw a viper for the first time i was amazed at how small it was. God those are sexy cars!

You must be kidding me... Viper's are boats. They handle like crap (the street cars, not the race cars) and they brake like crap. Sure they're fast in a straight line, but after driving it for 30 minutes, you don't want to drive 30 minutes to get home and switch cars.

[ScCab]

Originally posted by rage2


You must be kidding me... Viper's are boats. They handle like crap (the street cars, not the race cars) and they brake like crap. Sure they're fast in a straight line, but after driving it for 30 minutes, you don't want to drive 30 minutes to get home and switch cars.

agreed they are big and not fun to drive after 30mins. but lots of power on the straight

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by rage2


You must be kidding me... Viper's are boats. They handle like crap (the street cars, not the race cars) and they brake like crap. Sure they're fast in a straight line, but after driving it for 30 minutes, you don't want to drive 30 minutes to get home and switch cars.

They really arn't all that big in person, like i said in pictures they look much bigger. I was just commenting on my experience looking at them, you didn't have to go off on a tangent about their handling and what not. Just because your 944 can't beat one... j/k :D

[D'z Nutz]

Originally posted by rage2


and they brake like crap.

I've heard the brakes smell like crap too. :D

[rage2]

The Viper's scared of my 944 :D.

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by ScCab


agreed they are big and not fun to drive after 30mins. but lots of power on the straight

They are comparable in size to your BMW. Just wider and lower. That really isn't that big, but size is relative i guess.

[speedracer]

The vipers are difficult to drive due to the over abundance of torque IMO.

I've taken one out for a spin on the track and my gawd is it scary in the corners. Just a slight blip in the throtle and the tires break loose. Come to think of it in any gear with any modulation on the gas pedal would break the car loose. Very hard to to drive smooth... But lots of fun :thumbsup:

No one would trust me long enough let along for 30 mins to drive one on the street :rofl:

[turkeysilk]

I've heard a lot of talk about Vipers being not that good, and up until about 4 weeks ago I would have agreed with you. The Viper ACR pulls almost a full G in the Skipad, which not even Rage2 can say. Up until 02 didn't brake well, but now they brake very well. They are one of the best bang-for-buck performance cars on the market today.

[redline_13000]

vipers are frickin boats...thats why they need that 8.3 liter to make em move..but its still a beautiful car..i dont think the braking is that good since its so big..and ya those wide tires still cant get enough traction to the ground...imagine and awd viper:drool: :D hahah

[[GaGe]]

Vipers may be fast on the straight, but they're not too good on the corners. They're pretty heavy.

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
I've heard a lot of talk about Vipers being not that good, and up until about 4 weeks ago I would have agreed with you. The Viper ACR pulls almost a full G in the Skipad, which not even Rage2 can say. Up until 02 didn't brake well, but now they brake very well. They are one of the best bang-for-buck performance cars on the market today.

Maximum lateral G's doesn't mean shit. Try transitioning in a Viper. Talk to ANY Viper owner that's taken it to the track or driven it hard on the street. Both me and ScCab have lots of seat time in the Viper ACR. The last Viper that was out at Solo2, it spun on the *1st turn*.

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
The Viper ACR pulls almost a full G in the Skipad, which not even Rage2 can say.

Almost a full G? Look what I found :

http://www.virgeweb.com/rage2/944t/1999-03%201.00%20g%20cornering!.jpg

That was in the 944 turbo a few years ago using Bridgestone Potenza S-02's and relatively stock suspension. Calculated using G-Tech Pro in continuous G's mode, meaning you have to hold that G force for a few seconds before it registers (instant g's are far from accurate, I can hit 1.2g's easily on entry).

[MYKN]

OUCHED owned!

1 rage
0 turkeysilk

[Speed_RaSiR]

That one parks right accross from my building where i work in the parkade, I stare at it all day... lol :drool:

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by rage2


Maximum lateral G's doesn't mean shit. Try transitioning in a Viper. Talk to ANY Viper owner that's taken it to the track or driven it hard on the street. Both me and ScCab have lots of seat time in the Viper ACR. The last Viper that was out at Solo2, it spun on the *1st turn*.

Perhaps the person that spun out may not have been that great a driver, (MAYBE). I'm sure that it is hard to drive, but any car that is as fast a a 911 Turbo and costs $30 000 less earns my respect.

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
I'm sure that it is hard to drive, but any car that is as fast a a 911 Turbo and costs $30 000 less earns my respect.

Actually, the Viper ACR (or even the 450hp standard Vipers) is faster than the 996 twin turbo in a straight line hands down. Nobody's saying a Viper's slow in a straight line, we're talking about how the car handles and stops.

[5.9 R/T]

*puts bench racing helmet on*

I dunno man. According to road and track, with mario andretti behind the wheel, the viper was the quickest through a transition and hairpin turn out of all the cars. There wasn't a 911 turbo but carrara 4, lotus esprit, nsx, F355, and corvette. They were all about 1/2 second behind the viper through both the transition and the hair pin. These arn't the top cars anymore of their respective models in most cases anyways, but a 1/2 second is a lot when we are talking about 10-12 second lap sections.

On the other hand though, in the subjective ratings the viper was rated lowest in the sections of brakes, steering, and L to R transiton. Despite all that it was still by far the fastest car in the group. So rage i think your presenting a little bit of a biased look on this car. Yes, even mario said it's a hard car to drive, but if you have the skill to control it properly it can also be a very quick car, both in the straights and in the corners.

[Ekliptix]

I would personally rather own a Z06 over an acr

[rage2]

There are some places where the Viper can make up tons of time with it's brutal amounts of torque and power, not to mention big fat tires. Slower corners, the Viper probably has better cornering than a lot of cars where fat tires matter more than suspension/aerodynamics. The exit can gain tons on lesser powered cars... the F355 and the corvette can't compare to the Viper in terms of raw power. As a comparison, kenny's car can beat F355's and non Z06 vettes by a little bit (they're close) in a straight line, but the Viper pulls carlengths on the little AMG very easily.

As an example, on a slow 1st gear corner, I've floored the ACR and the tail doesn't slide out, just grips. Once you get into the 2nd and 3rd gear corners, the car is very twitchy and on the edge. Grip isn't anything spectacular either, so many times you're over confident and enter corners a wee bit too fast =).

As for me being biased, I'm just giving an opinion based on seat time in the car. Maybe my expectations were too high before I drove it.

[5.9 R/T]

If I could find a test of the Z06 vs viper acr or gtsr vs 911 TT (or even better a GT2) it would be a much fairer comparison, but I couldn't find one with all cars on the same track on the same day at the same time. Bias was not the right word, what I meant was that you need to be clearer when you say vipers don't stop or corner very well. Just because they feel like a roller coaster or boat or whatever doesn't mean that they arn't, in reality, going very fast through the corners and around the track. I hope that makes some sense. :)

[mwmhong]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T
If I could find a test of the Z06 vs viper acr or gtsr vs 911 TT

Ha ha, there's a test just like that in current month's Car and Driver (10,000 HP shootout on the cover). Same track, same day, different drivers though.

Generally, the Viper ACR was best in straight line acceleration, while the Porsche was best in braking and road course, the Corvette Z06 was in between the two.

[Toms-Celica]

I seen that ACR yesterday, very nice.

[jonny]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T
*puts bench racing helmet on*

I dunno man. According to road and track, with mario andretti behind the wheel, the viper was the quickest through a transition and hairpin turn out of all the cars. There wasn't a 911 turbo but carrara 4, lotus esprit, nsx, F355, and corvette. They were all about 1/2 second behind the viper through both the transition and the hair pin. These arn't the top cars anymore of their respective models in most cases anyways, but a 1/2 second is a lot when we are talking about 10-12 second lap sections.

On the other hand though, in the subjective ratings the viper was rated lowest in the sections of brakes, steering, and L to R transiton. Despite all that it was still by far the fastest car in the group. So rage i think your presenting a little bit of a biased look on this car. Yes, even mario said it's a hard car to drive, but if you have the skill to control it properly it can also be a very quick car, both in the straights and in the corners.

If the Viper has enough power to make up for the time lost on the corners then it is still faster.

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by jonny


If the Viper has enough power to make up for the time lost on the corners then it is still faster.
That's VERY circuit specific. Just because its faster at streets of willow or thunderhill doesn't necessarily mean its going to be faster at laguna seca or the nurburgring. Different courses suit different types of cars, and what works well at one track isn't always the fastest at the next.

[rage2]

Originally posted by jonny
If the Viper has enough power to make up for the time lost on the corners then it is still faster.

Only on long straights, at that time it loses it all back under braking. I've got a few Viper laptimes of decent drivers at Race City, and it's about a second a lap slower than Kenny in his less powerful SLK 32 AMG.

[jonny]

Originally posted by 4wheeldrift

That's VERY circuit specific. Just because its faster at streets of willow or thunderhill doesn't necessarily mean its going to be faster at laguna seca or the nurburgring. Different courses suit different types of cars, and what works well at one track isn't always the fastest at the next.

Thats true for EVERY car.

[jonny]

Originally posted by rage2


Only on long straights, at that time it loses it all back under braking. I've got a few Viper laptimes of decent drivers at Race City, and it's about a second a lap slower than Kenny in his less powerful SLK 32 AMG.

Somehow I think that given a professional driver you could get the Viper ACR to go significantly faster then the SLK AMG which needs a much less skilled driver to go fast. And keep in mind that we arent talking about what we could get, were talking about what the car is capable of.

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by rage2


Only on long straights, at that time it loses it all back under braking. I've got a few Viper laptimes of decent drivers at Race City, and it's about a second a lap slower than Kenny in his less powerful SLK 32 AMG.

Here is my knowledge on the whole issue. On the N'ring, the Eurospec Viper, which has less horsepower, less torque, and generally less "umph", had a run of 8:10, and the SLK 32 AMG runs in at about 8:18. And that was not even the ACR version, it was just a GTS, that was Eurospec.

[rage2]

Originally posted by jonny
Somehow I think that given a professional driver you could get the Viper ACR to go significantly faster then the SLK AMG which needs a much less skilled driver to go fast.

The Viper laptime was done by an instructor level person. Get the same person to drive Kenny's car, and he'll shave 2 or 3 seconds off his time making the gap even wider.


Originally posted by jonny
And keep in mind that we arent talking about what we could get, were talking about what the car is capable of.

What's the point in that, so you can go sit at home, log into forums and bench race? Ask anyone that's driven a Viper, professional, instructor, or amateur. Everyone will agree that the car drives like shit after 2 laps. No brakes, can't corner, etc.

When's the last time you drove a Viper jonny?

[rage2]

Originally posted by turkeysilk
Here is my knowledge on the whole issue. On the N'ring, the Eurospec Viper, which has less horsepower, less torque, and generally less "umph", had a run of 8:10, and the SLK 32 AMG runs in at about 8:18. And that was not even the ACR version, it was just a GTS, that was Eurospec.

damn bench racers. Same day? Same driver? Perfect lap? Brake fade? There's soooo many factors involved in a 8 minute lap that 8 seconds can be a mistake in a corner to a hot day vs cold day.

But I guess if you want to do bench racing :

I searched for "viper z06 laptime" on google and the first hit resulted in some laptimes of a race at Lime Rock Park.

The Viper ACR fastest laptime : 1:01.111
The Corvette Z06 fastest laptime : 1:00.750

Same day, same conditions, not sure about both driver's experiences. Safe to say the Corvette Z06 is faster than the Viper ACR.

Last time out at race city, we had a Z06 driven by a very experienced driver, and the SLK 32 AMG driven by Kenny who's only been on the track 3 times. Kenny's pretty much as rookie as you can get. Over 4 laps, the average laptime :

Corvette Z06 : 1:32.8
SLK 32 AMG : 1:32.1

That's an average laptime. The best laptime, the Z06 edged the SLK 32 AMG by 0.1 seconds. Since the SLK 32 is faster than the Z06 (on average) or equal to the Z06 (best lap time), it's safe to say that the SLK 32 is faster than the Viper at the track.

The numbers speak for themselves.

[jonny]

Originally posted by rage2

What's the point in that, so you can go sit at home, log into forums and bench race? Ask anyone that's driven a Viper, professional, instructor, or amateur. Everyone will agree that the car drives like shit after 2 laps. No brakes, can't corner, etc.

When's the last time you drove a Viper jonny?

Holy crap man, calm down. I'm just saying what is the point of arguing what some random person can get in any particular car. When saying one car is faster then another you might as well assume its the best driver in the world driving both. Instuctor level of skill varies big time rage2. You should know that. The Viper is a hard car to drive, thats not in dispute. Obviously I havent driven a Viper but I wouldnt be able to get good lap times out of it either. Thats not the point. I also doubt that 'everyone' will agree with you.

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by rage2


damn bench racers. Same day? Same driver? Perfect lap? Brake fade? There's soooo many factors involved in a 8 minute lap that 8 seconds can be a mistake in a corner to a hot day vs cold day.

But I guess if you want to do bench racing :

I searched for "viper z06 laptime" on google and the first hit resulted in some laptimes of a race at Lime Rock Park.

The Viper ACR fastest laptime : 1:01.111
The Corvette Z06 fastest laptime : 1:00.750

Same day, same conditions, not sure about both driver's experiences. Safe to say the Corvette Z06 is faster than the Viper ACR.

Last time out at race city, we had a Z06 driven by a very experienced driver, and the SLK 32 AMG driven by Kenny who's only been on the track 3 times. Kenny's pretty much as rookie as you can get. Over 4 laps, the average laptime :

Corvette Z06 : 1:32.8
SLK 32 AMG : 1:32.1

That's an average laptime. The best laptime, the Z06 edged the SLK 32 AMG by 0.1 seconds. Since the SLK 32 is faster than the Z06 (on average) or equal to the Z06 (best lap time), it's safe to say that the SLK 32 is faster than the Viper at the track.

The numbers speak for themselves.

The N'ring times that I gave to you were by the same driver and relatively equal conditition. I say relatively because cars running at two different times of the day may yield much different conditions.

I found some track times for the Z06 and the Viper ACR at the Willow Springs International Motorsport Park. The Viper got 1:34.9, and the Z06 got 1:36.3. Same conditions, same driver, same day.

[gpomp]

Shut up all you bench racers. Just in case you didn't know, some people don't buy cars based on how fast it completes a track. There are lots of other factors. I dare you to find someone who can truthfully say that they bought Car A over Car B because i'ts faster on some racetrack in the middle of nowhere by half a second.

[ME_VS_YOU]

well put gomp:clap: :clap: :clap:

[gpomp]

Originally posted by ME_VS_YOU
well put gomp:clap: :clap: :clap:

Who's gomp?

[turkeysilk]

Originally posted by gpomp
Shut up all you bench racers. Just in case you didn't know, some people don't buy cars based on how fast it completes a track. There are lots of other factors. I dare you to find someone who can truthfully say that they bought Car A over Car B because i'ts faster on some racetrack in the middle of nowhere by half a second.

I think you misunderstood the thread. We haven't been discussing which one is better to buy, we are just discussing which one would be faster.

[Stratus_Power]

but I definitly agree w/ you gpomp :D when i get a car i would rather it be newer and more comfty than buying a old civic and turbo charge it or wat not ... but thats just me.. plz dont bash me :(

[rage2]

Originally posted by jonny
I also doubt that 'everyone' will agree with you.

Actually, everyone I've talked to that's driven a Viper on the track has agreed with me that the brakes are useless after 2 laps. That's why all Viper owners that track their cars get brake upgrades, because the stock ones suck.

[Tha_Shot_Caller]

I think Rage2 needs to step back and think about what he's writing. He seems like he very angery and is not able to think before he writes. Obviously, if someone is going to be racing their car hard, they will be getting brake upgrades regradless of what car they own, any car being raced somewhat hard would have poor brakes after a few laps. I don't think that is the point of this thread, i thought it was discussing the faster car. Keep it cool rage and don't be a foo!

[4wheeldrift]

Originally posted by Tha_Shot_Caller
I think Rage2 needs to step back and think about what he's writing. He seems like he very angery and is not able to think before he writes. Obviously, if someone is going to be racing their car hard, they will be getting brake upgrades regradless of what car they own, any car being raced somewhat hard would have poor brakes after a few laps. I don't think that is the point of this thread, i thought it was discussing the faster car. Keep it cool rage and don't be a foo!
Umm..no.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Tha_Shot_Caller
I think Rage2 needs to step back and think about what he's writing. He seems like he very angery and is not able to think before he writes. Obviously, if someone is going to be racing their car hard, they will be getting brake upgrades regradless of what car they own, any car being raced somewhat hard would have poor brakes after a few laps. I don't think that is the point of this thread, i thought it was discussing the faster car. Keep it cool rage and don't be a foo!

911 twin turbo works fine with stock brakes.
SLK 320 works fine with stock brakes
SLK 32 works fine with stock brakes.
Viper ACR (American Club Racer) has massive brake fade after a few laps. Why they even call it a "racer" package, I'll never know. You sure the hell can't race an ACR out of the box.

I've already said the Viper is fastest in a straight line (compared to say 911 TT). I was bitching about the handling and braking of the car (the point of this thread). The Vipers can be very fast if upgraded, I've already mentioned that earlier as well.

You should READ before you write.

[Ben]

I think the reason he may have came off as angry to you (i found his posts direct, but hardly angry) is because every time he makes a point, someone misreads it or says something that it not entirely correct, and so he ends up repeating himself over and over on the same issue.

Like it or not, rage is correct on his explanation of the Vipers performance when the runway ends. The viper desimates all on the strip, but loses all its ground on the not so straight.

[Redlyne_mr2]

one of the first thing that many viper owners upgrade is the brakes, as rage stated brake fade and burning out rotors is a common problem with those cars. Althoug it has a 48/52 weight distibution Ive heard that it has soe really strange handlign characteristics, ive also seen countless videos of stock vipers smokign the walls due to brake failure....ive never driven one so i cant make any mroe claims than this..would I buy one..never

[mwmhong]

On an interesting side note, Fear Factor host and UFC spokesperson Joe Rogan chose to buy an Acura NSX over a Dodge Viper because the Viper drove like crap compared to the Acura. :)

[Stratus_Power]

but NSX soooo out of date! how can they not change the design for like 10 years ;(

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by Stratus_Power
but NSX soooo out of date! how can they not change the design for like 10 years ;(
because evenm after 10 years it still looks better than 95% of the cars on the road today.....the viper has basically retained the same style since its release as well....these cars arent shitty little sunfires, they arent produced in huge numbers and dont rely on image transformation in order to generate sales

[Ben]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2

because evenm after 10 years it still looks better than 95% of the cars on the road today.....the viper has basically retained the same style since its release....these cars arent shitty little sunfires, they rent produced in huge numbers and dont rely on image transformation in order to generate sales

Word to that buddy, word to that!

[Ben]

Check this out for comparisson.

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_opener.xml


Check out the braking distances. The porsche had 640 feet to stop from 150MPH to 0, and on the stock Discs and pads...almost all the other cars were 700+ and there was a vette at like 880 feet! There was a viuper that was close to the porcshe, but hey, I would expect that when spending 6 large upgrading the wimpy stock brakes... This is what we were saying, vipers are good at getting fast, but bringing them back is HARD!!! And these cars are the best of the best. This is with upgraded brakes for sure. So any talk saying this or that about vipers having wicked brakes is a farce.


And yeah, after reading it, I dont know how the porsche lost out...it excelled in everything but 1 second on the total course time...

[HOK]

Originally posted by Stratus_Power
but NSX soooo out of date! how can they not change the design for like 10 years ;(

dudes the NSX has changed... its all new and better too... NSX -R dynamic balancing... a matter a fact saw one today... WHITE! niceee

[5.9 R/T]

Originally posted by rage2


911 twin turbo works fine with stock brakes.
SLK 320 works fine with stock brakes
SLK 32 works fine with stock brakes.
Viper ACR (American Club Racer) has massive brake fade after a few laps. Why they even call it a "racer" package, I'll never know. You sure the hell can't race an ACR out of the box.

I've already said the Viper is fastest in a straight line (compared to say 911 TT). I was bitching about the handling and braking of the car (the point of this thread). The Vipers can be very fast if upgraded, I've already mentioned that earlier as well.

You should READ before you write.

Well the point of this thread was the looks of the vipers, not their handling characteristics, shitty or otherwise, you changed the subject by bitching. Not that i'm keeping track or anything... lol

[rage2]

Originally posted by 5.9 R/T
Well the point of this thread was the looks of the vipers, not their handling characteristics, shitty or otherwise, you changed the subject by bitching. Not that i'm keeping track or anything... lol

lol bastard! Since we're keeping score, the thread started out as viper acr looks, someone pointed out that it was small, I said it was big and handles like crap, then a few people said how awesome the viper handles, and the discussion focused on the track abilities of the Viper. Time to split the thread...

[jonny]

Originally posted by Benny
Check this out for comparisson.

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_opener.xml


Check out the braking distances. The porsche had 640 feet to stop from 150MPH to 0, and on the stock Discs and pads...almost all the other cars were 700+ and there was a vette at like 880 feet! There was a viuper that was close to the porcshe, but hey, I would expect that when spending 6 large upgrading the wimpy stock brakes... This is what we were saying, vipers are good at getting fast, but bringing them back is HARD!!! And these cars are the best of the best. This is with upgraded brakes for sure. So any talk saying this or that about vipers having wicked brakes is a farce.


And yeah, after reading it, I dont know how the porsche lost out...it excelled in everything but 1 second on the total course time...

I dont know who was contesting the brake quality on the viper. I certainly wasnt.

[Ben]

Originally posted by jonny


I dont know who was contesting the brake quality on the viper. I certainly wasnt.

Quality of the brakes is a direct corrilation to its ability to enter a corner later and hense allow for quicker lap times. If you can late brake, thats going to save you time, but if you have to start braking half way down the strait, that would suck.

[jonny]

And? :dunno:

[Ben]

There are still people out there who think Vipers are wicked top knotch in every aspect, this just shows some clarification.:thumbsup:

[jonny]

Oh ok. I thought it was directed at me for some reason. :banghead:

[kenny]

Originally posted by Benny


Quality of the brakes is a direct corrilation to its ability to enter a corner later and hense allow for quicker lap times. If you can late brake, thats going to save you time, but if you have to start braking half way down the strait, that would suck.

Ask any racer, any real racer, its all about exit speed, not entrance speed. :rofl:

[HOK]

this is what you get for putting a truck engine in a car lol...

[5.9 R/T]

Actually it's a car engine, that was put in the truck.

[silverEJ8]

Originally posted by Ekliptix
I would personally rather own a Z06 over an acr

I second that:thumbsup:

[silverEJ8]

Originally posted by Stratus_Power
but NSX soooo out of date! how can they not change the design for like 10 years ;(

I would still buy ten year old NSX over a Viper any day, but that's just me and probably most people on this board haha....

No offense Viper lovers!:nut:

[infamous]

i would rather take the new nsx than a viper acr.....too many vipers running around, how many nsx's???

[Tuner1]

Originally posted by infamous
i would rather take the new nsx than a viper acr.....too many vipers running around, how many nsx's???

Is this seriously what some people base their buying decision on? If so, why not buy a Lotus Esprit or something oddball like that? At last count there were over 40 NSX's in Calgary.

Rob

[5.9 R/T]

This summer I've seen a total of 10 NSX's, all different. I've seen two vipers, both R/T 10's.