Your Paying For Private Schools With Your Taxes!

[Nusc]

Not just in Ontario but Alberta as well.

Catholic school funding protest:
http://www.cbc.ca/video/watch/News/ID=1590737298

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCxXQyt7_Fk
XCxXQyt7_Fk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAfCBZWtvQI
JAfCBZWtvQI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=698qo1LknN0
698qo1LknN0

[kertejud2]

This is why you have that "Public or Separate" option to allocate where your tax dollars go

[speedog]

Actually, things are not as they seem.

If you deem your school tax dollars as separate, then those dollars go to the Catholic system in Alberta.

If you deem them as public, then they go into a pool out of which the public system gets monies as well as every charter and private school.

Not exactly a fair system as any public designated dollars are being used to support charter and private schools - the charter schools are a bit of a interesting situation because they are a spin-off of the public system here in Calgary, but are in essence pretty much a private school operating at arms length within the public system with specific entrance requirements.

We will have one of these so-called charter school operating in our neighborhood (a Foundations for the Future school) and it presents problems in that most of the kids come from out of the neighborhood, are driven to/from school by the parents adding considerable traffic issues to our community as well as the school does not actively involve it's self in the community in any form or fashion.

Now immersion schools are becoming a bit of a stretch also within the public system with French immersion once being the only option. But now there are Spanish and German immersion schools in Calgary and next year will see our local K-6 school converted to a Mandarin immersion school. Immersion schools are rapidly becoming a bastardized form of charter schools with all the community problems that come with them IMHO.

Public school tax dollars - not that public after all.

[DayGlow]

I remember on the news they covered this a few weeks ago. I forget exacty goes to the private schools and the NDP were really bitching about it. My thought was if you slash all of the money how many people would have to pull their kids out of private schools because they couldn't afford the increased tuition? Then the tax payer would foot the full bill for the child's education.

The number of kids in the province is a steady number. The more that are in private education the more have a lot of their education costs being subsidized by their parents, relieving pressure on the tax payer to gave more money to spend on the rest.

[speedog]

First thing, the real solution would be to have all school tax dollars go into one single pool and then allocate them on a per student basis after that. There are a couple of things that complicate this though - first being that a separate Catholic school tax regime is something that's not going to disappear as because it's allowed to exist that way by our Canadian Constitution (if my memory serves me correctly). Secondly - immersion and charter schools would still continue to operate as they are specialty public schools funded by the public tax regime.

IMHO, some school tax reform needs to happen in order to allow specialty schools (private, charter and immersion) to truly stand more on their own and if there are operating shortfalls that can't be covered by the tax dollars being allotted to them on a fair per-student ratio, then the parents of the kids attending those schools will have to fork out the true difference. Of course if this were to happen, we would soon see all sorts of private, charter and immersion schools in Alberta closing their doors as the adjusted true tax dollars they should be receiving would most likely be considerably less than what they're getting right now and most of the affected parents probably wouldn't have the available cash to make up the difference.

And for the record, our three kids have attended only public english schools in Calgary with one now in university and the quality of their education IMHO was great. But then again, we took an active roll in their education from an early age (before K-1) instead of just shipping them off to school and expecting that the schools would do everything that was required to spit them out as highly functional and well learned young adults. Parents have a significant role in their child's future lot in life and no school, be it public, Catholic, immersion, charter or private, will produce a significantly better prepared young adult if the parents are uninvolved.

[ZenOps]

Meh - it happens.

You are paying for Rob Anders too, and every member of the Bloq Quebecois.

You are about to be paying 16 Billion for 60 or so jet fighters (but amazingly enough, not a single aircraft carrier to put them on)

Now take your flavoured Kool-Aid and swallow it.

I actually like Catholic Schools. Weeds Season 1 (or was it 2?) Lesbian athiest girl gets hot Catholic girl to "save" her.

[DayGlow]

Originally posted by speedog
First thing, the real solution would be to have all school tax dollars go into one single pool and then allocate them on a per student basis after that. There are a couple of things that complicate this though - first being that a separate Catholic school tax regime is something that's not going to disappear as because it's allowed to exist that way by our Canadian Constitution (if my memory serves me correctly). Secondly - immersion and charter schools would still continue to operate as they are specialty public schools funded by the public tax regime.

IMHO, some school tax reform needs to happen in order to allow specialty schools (private, charter and immersion) to truly stand more on their own and if there are operating shortfalls that can't be covered by the tax dollars being allotted to them on a fair per-student ratio, then the parents of the kids attending those schools will have to fork out the true difference. Of course if this were to happen, we would soon see all sorts of private, charter and immersion schools in Alberta closing their doors as the adjusted true tax dollars they should be receiving would most likely be considerably less than what they're getting right now and most of the affected parents probably wouldn't have the available cash to make up the difference.

And for the record, our three kids have attended only public english schools in Calgary with one now in university and the quality of their education IMHO was great. But then again, we took an active roll in their education from an early age (before K-1) instead of just shipping them off to school and expecting that the schools would do everything that was required to spit them out as highly functional and well learned young adults. Parents have a significant role in their child's future lot in life and no school, be it public, Catholic, immersion, charter or private, will produce a significantly better prepared young adult if the parents are uninvolved.

I fully agree, the money should follow the student. The Wildrose Alliance has some interesting ideas on this.

[HyperZell]

It doesn't appear as if you're paying for school at all.

[Jynx]

Public schools get money for every child enrolled as do private schools. Parents of private school children pay the same taxes that public parents pay so why shouldn't their education get subsidized? Private school parents flip the rest of the bill either way so really its no difference!

[Melinda]

Originally posted by Jynx
Public schools get money for every child enrolled as do private schools. Parents of private school children pay the same taxes that public parents pay so why shouldn't their education get subsidized? Private school parents flip the rest of the bill either way so really its no difference!
This.

All those kids who are in the immersion, private and charter schools have parents who pay the same taxes as those who are in regular public school. Their dollars go into the pot just like yours and mine. It's all the same in the end, you guys are whining about nothing.

[Phenix]

Well I know our taxes all go to friggin quebec. So not too surprising

[speedog]

Originally posted by Melinda
This.

All those kids who are in the immersion, private and charter schools have parents who pay the same taxes as those who are in regular public school. Their dollars go into the pot just like yours and mine. It's all the same in the end, you guys are whining about nothing. Well maybe things have changed, but when we voted as a parent council nine years ago to shut down and move the english portion of our community's local public K1-6 school (20% of the school's head count and leaving it just a french immersion K1-6), we found out through various meetings with various levels of government that not all schools are funded equally out of the public school tax monies pool. Charter and private schools at that time were getting considerably more than their share. Of course, that was nine years ago and things could have very well changed to a completely equitable system by now.

[Nusc]

Monotheistic religions provide poor answers to important questions. In a 21st century society, I'm deeply opposed to funding such schools as it indoctrinates future generation students with their utter bullshit in attempt to preserve power - reminiscent of the Conservative Party and their obsession with obscurantism.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by speedog
Well maybe things have changed, but when we voted as a parent council eight years ago to shut down and move the english portion of our community's local public K1-6 school (20% of the school's head count and leaving it just a french immersion K1-6), we found out through various meetings with various levels of government that not all schools are funded equally out of the public school tax monies pool. Charter and private schools at that time were getting considerably more than their share. Of course, that was eight years ago and things could have very well changed to a completely equitable system by now.
Nope, I still think that might be true. But within the "normal" public system, 'coded' kids (kids who need extra help, etc) get more funding, and so do the super smart kids. They also devote a lot of extra money to setting up special ed classes within the public schools, they bring in mentors, tutors, other professionals (psychologists etc to deal with problem kids) and it all comes out of the same pool. So it's not as easy to track as you might think.

[speedog]

Probably the biggest sticking point with me is the fact that none of the Catholic (separate) designated school tax dollars go into supporting private or charter schools - Catholic dollars support only Catholic schools with public dollars being used to fund everything else be it immersion, charter or private.

Better yet, if you are of the Catholic faith (such as I am), then you are required by law to designate your school tax dollars to the Catholic system even if you are a non-practicing Catholic as myself. This I know first hand because of a quite lengthy discussion I had with the Calgary Catholic school board about 6 years ago and I basically told them they would have to take me to court to have me designate my school tax dollars as Catholic (ours have always been allocated to public).

[Melinda]

Originally posted by speedog
Probably the biggest sticking point with me is the fact that none of the Catholic (separate) designated school tax dollars go into supporting private or charter schools - Catholic dollars support only Catholic schools with public dollars being used to fund everything else be it immersion, charter or private.

Better yet, if you are of the Catholic faith (such as I am), then you are required by law to designate your school tax dollars to the Catholic system even if you are a non-practicing Catholic as myself. This I know first hand because of a quite lengthy discussion I had with the Calgary Catholic school board about 6 years ago and I basically told them they would have to take me to court to have me designate my school tax dollars as Catholic (ours have always been allocated to public).
By law? How does the government keep track of you and your religion, and what exactly is the penalty they inflict on you if you choose to support the public system instead? Do the police come to your door and arrest you? Slap you with a fine?

Or are you saying it is frowned upon by the catholic faith to allocate your taxes to public schools and there really is no penalty other than some old dreamers giving you the stink eye and telling you how much God hates you for your traitorous ways?

[CUG]

Is this another Nusc "really tackling the issues" thread? He's on ignore, but I thought I'd ask.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by CUG
Is this another Nusc "really tackling the issues" thread? He's on ignore, but I thought I'd ask.

At least he didn't blame Harper, yet.

[DayGlow]

Originally posted by Nusc
Monotheistic religions provide poor answers to important questions. In a 21st century society, I'm deeply opposed to funding such schools as it indoctrinates future generation students with their utter bullshit in attempt to preserve power - reminiscent of the Conservative Party and their obsession with obscurantism.

I see, you want to oppress their beliefs and substitute your own. So really you are no better than what you say they are. How 'bout this? You stand on the merit of what you believe and if enough people agree with you, then you have something.

I see no reason to interfere with any culture that wants to pass along their beliefs as long as the school curriculum meets a legislate standard of education in the core classes.

You really fear anything that you don't agree with don't you? You are no better than any religious zealot that wants to force their beliefs on everyone else. Guess what? They believe they have the truth too.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
Better yet, if you are of the Catholic faith (such as I am), then you are required by law to designate your school tax dollars to the Catholic system even if you are a non-practicing Catholic as myself. This I know first hand because of a quite lengthy discussion I had with the Calgary Catholic school board about 6 years ago and I basically told them they would have to take me to court to have me designate my school tax dollars as Catholic (ours have always been allocated to public).

Are you on drugs? :facepalm: No one is forcing you to do anything. You get the same form everyone else gets when they start paying property tax. You pick which school board you want to send your money. It's clear as day on the form you pick either the seperate school board or the public.

Did you do something dumbass like send your kids to catholic school and then try not to pay for sending them there?

[speedog]

The existence of a separate school system (Catholic) is something that came to be when Canada became a country in 1867 and there is wording in section 29 of the Canadian Constitution. Better yet, Section 17 of the Alberta Act, 1905 also guarantees denominational school rights for Catholics in Alberta and because of these two things, the Catholic church (and Protestant where applicable) could probably force someone of the Catholic faith to sign their school tax dollars over to the separate system. Myself, as a non-practising Catholic, supports and pays into the public Calgary Catholic school board to force me to do otherwise.

For some light reading on this, please reference this Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_Twenty-nine_of_the_Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms) which includes references to a fairly recent Canadian Supreme Court decision which reaffirmed these constitutional rights.

This was all quite an eye opener for ourselves when we, as a parent group, in our community voted to shutdown and move a small public english program in our community's public school where 80% of the school population at the time was french immersion. We learned so much because of this shut down/school closure process regarding funding and constitutional rights.

[speedog]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin


Are you on drugs? :facepalm: No one is forcing you to do anything. You get the same form everyone else gets when they start paying property tax. You pick which school board you want to send your money. It's clear as day on the form you pick either the seperate school board or the public.

Did you do something dumbass like send your kids to catholic school and then try not to pay for sending them there? Read my posts and see what is actually entrenched within the Canadian Constitution and the Alberta Act - kind of amazing that stuff from 1867 could control us so tightly still in a world that has changed so much.

And for the record, my kids went to public schools where my school tax dollars are directed to even though I was politely informed by a Catholic school board employee that they could force me to direct my tax dollars to the Catholic system just because I was baptized into the Catholic faith. That said, my challenge to the Catholic system still stands and to this day they have not acted upon anything.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
The Catholic church (and Protestant where applicable) could probably force someone of the Catholic faith to sign their school tax dollars over to the separate system. Myself, as a non-practising Catholic, supports and pays into the public Calgary Catholic school board to force me to do otherwise.

Strawman? I mean you fill out a damn form to say where you want your money going... Seriously how is that forcing you to send money to one school board vs the other? Did the Catholic church hold a gun to your head when you filled in your property tax form?

[speedog]

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
Strawman? I mean you fill out a damn form to say where you want your money going... Seriously how is that forcing you to send money to one school board vs the other? Did the Catholic church hold a gun to your head when you filled in your property tax form? Can you not read? The Catholic church could challenge someone if they wished and challenges have actually been made to this effect on where the Constitution stands and all challenges have been lost - the Constitutional rights of the separate schools systems still stand as per Canada's 1867 Constitution and the Alberta Act of 1905.

It's all out there in black and white for someone to read (if they wish) and I was politely informed by the Calgary Catholic school system where my tax dollars by law were supposed to be going to even though they have not seen one red cent of my school tax dollars signed over to them. I have not been forced to date to do anything although I was told what I was constitutionally bound to do.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by speedog

It's all out there in black and white for someone to read (if they wish) and I was politely informed by the Calgary Catholic school system where my tax dollars by law were supposed to be going to even though they have not seen one red cent of my school tax dollars signed over to them. I have not been forced to date to do anything although I was told what I was constitutionally bound to do.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and read what's there in black and white. The Constitution does indeed guarantee the right for a Catholic school system, but it does not bound Catholics to allocate their tax dollars to the Catholic school system whether their kids went to those schools or not. Even if you had 8 kids all of whom went to Catholic schools from K-12 and then went to St. FX or Loyola for university, you could still check the box that says "public" and there's nothing the Catholic school system could do about it.

[speedog]

Originally posted by kertejud2


Perhaps you should take your own advice and read what's there in black and white. The Constitution does indeed guarantee the right for a Catholic school system, but it does not bound Catholics to allocate their tax dollars to the Catholic school system whether their kids went to those schools or not. Even if you had 8 kids all of whom went to Catholic schools from K-12 and then went to St. FX or Loyola for university, you could still check the box that says "public" and there's nothing the Catholic school system could do about it. Maybe you should have that discussion with the Catholic school board then and then challenge them as to their assertions.

[Melinda]

Originally posted by speedog
Maybe you should have that discussion with the Catholic school board then and then challenge them as to their assertions.
I'm actually shocked that they have any method of knowing who is giving their dollars where. The catholic board gets a print out every year from the government of who the catholics are and where their money is going? Isn't that a violation of privacy?

[speedog]

Okay, I am not saying that the Catholic board has any way of knowing who is giving their school tax dollars to them as I just am not that aware of what information is freely available, but I do know that they made contact with us regarding where our school tax dollars were being alloted to in the past. Don't know how they became aware that I wasn't sending them my school tax dollars, but they were well aware. Never the less and even after they educated me as to what the Canadian Constitution and the Alberta Act says, I still informed them that they would not be getting my school tax dollars and they would have to take me to court to force any such thing. That hasn't happened to date and probably won't ever IMHO.

Finally and for the record, I have not once said that the Catholic boards can force a baptized Catholic (such as myself) to sign over their school tax dollars - I am an example of that in that I still send my monies to the public system. But, the law has been challenged in the past and the Constitution has been upheld in the separate board's favour. I do not agree with what the Constitution or the Alberta Act says, but it is what it is and no doubt, there will be future court cases to come yet to challenge all of this.

[mazdavirgin]

Originally posted by speedog
But, the law has been challenged in the past and the Constitution has been upheld in the separate board's favour. I do not agree with what the Constitution or the Alberta Act says, but it is what it is and no doubt, there will be future court cases to come yet to challenge all of this.

You are confused... The law hasn't been challenged they tried to weasel funding for other faith based schools through the clause. The interpretation of the constitution was not questioned. In either case you can choose to disagree with the constitution for all the good that will do. The constitution isn't like a normal law it can't be struck down. Making changes to the constitution is about as likely as pigs flying. What the supreme court ruled is very explicit pretty much they told all other faiths to GTFO since they were not there when the constitution was penned. Pretty much the ruling was that creation the nation was conditional on these agreements thus their legality cannot be challenged.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by speedog
Maybe you should have that discussion with the Catholic school board then and then challenge them as to their assertions.

My guess is that their assertions are correct and that your interpretation of their call is wrong.

[speedog]

Originally posted by kertejud2
My guess is that their assertions are correct and that your interpretation of their call is wrong. Geez, this is just like wrestling with a pig in the mud.

[ddduke]

Originally posted by Melinda

This.

All those kids who are in the immersion, private and charter schools have parents who pay the same taxes as those who are in regular public school. Their dollars go into the pot just like yours and mine. It's all the same in the end, you guys are whining about nothing.

haha, that's great. You just killed this entire argument so quickly.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Melinda

This.

All those kids who are in the immersion, private and charter schools have parents who pay the same taxes as those who are in regular public school.

I was going to say the same thing, pleasantly surprised I'm not the only one that could figure this out. I see zero problems with gov't giving the same funding to private schools as they do public and anything extra being paid for by the clients. If the gov't is paying for a student in public school, why shouldn't they pay the same for a kid in private? The parents are just using their funds to supplement a public system.