Rx8 - Worthy of being modded?

[GQNammer]

Modded for the everyday driver. Pros and cons?

[rice_eater]

if people can mod shittier cars like neons or civics then why the heck not?

[C4S]

Originally posted by rice_eater
shittier cars like neons or civics

:( Oh no .. Civics and Neons are now in the same group ? :dunno: no . please.. Civics are not that bad....:dunno:

[1badPT]

Neons aren't that bad either, especially the 2nd gen and 3rd gen. Even the first gen neons can be modded up nice whether you're going for go or show.

As for the RX-8, I've heard its on the weak side, but everything else I like about the car. So some power mods are definitely in order - is there much of an aftermarket for it yet?

[lude_conduct]

I've read that a full standalone or piggyback fuel controller will definately help for gains on a stock car. Apparently, the RX-8 runs rich like a pig from the factory.

[Team_Mclaren]

if the RX8 is not worthy to be modded i dont know what is:dunno:

[Maxt]

I would yank the motor and either drop in a 13b-rew, or build a Peripheral exhaust, but bridged intake n/a motor...
I don't have any faith in mazda electronics, yank that, put in a e6x...
The only time I would actually own an rx-8 though is if there was no other rx chassis's available to drive... I would still take a first gen over an rx-8...Maxt

[Redlyne_mr2]

its all personal preference, I know that the car has only put down about 133whp but dr. lightspeed on the board has developed a chip that yields a 20hp gain. as an autox car im sure it would be awesome...as a flat out drag car its useless..IMO

[Akagi Redsuns]

Just saw a video of the MazdaSpeed RX-8 lay down a beating to the RSX Type-R, Golf R32 and the S2000 at the racetrack, so I would say that it is worthy of being modded. Mind you I think all they did was revise some suspension setting and added an exhaust and intake.

I like the concept of the RX-8, just not the execution and definately not the styling. Not coherent and just seems like used a mish-mash of styling cues to try to attract everyone and instead it has a clumsly design, at least compared to the 3rd Gen RX-7 and the newer Mazda 6 and Mazda 3.

Anyways, I do think it is worthy of being modded.

[three.eighteen.]

from what i've read the rx-8 has alot of electronic failsafes and checks that prevent it from being dyno'ed properly, in order for it to make 'real' power the front wheels need to be spinning, which is impossible on a dyno

alot of supercars are pretty dyno proof as well, the e46 m3 needs both rear wheels to be spinning in unison to produce max power

[SwitchBlade]

^^^ Ya i heard that too, its looking to be more common with manufacturers making it difficult to mod cars nowadays but why :confused:

[^SkylinE^]

I read that some where too Maybe in SCC. But there is 50/50 weight front back. I hands like a 911 and the power is there.
Definatly WORTHY!:burnout:

[Redlyne_mr2]

Im not sure how worthy articles and even videos are these days. ive read articles where they do nothing but complain about the car and the handling while some praise it to the point where theyre almost advertising for the car. I dont understand why an article would compare it to the handling of a porsche just because it has 50/50 weight. The rx8 is fr while the porsche is rr, my corolla is 50/50 but my porsche would out handle it anyday. Ive also seen best motoring vids where the rx8 gets murdered by the integra r, g35, s2000, and silvia and just barely finishes ahead of the miata, this is after having pole position at the begining of the race.

In reference to all the talk about poor dyno results from what ive read is that because the car is in a stationary position and the front wheels arent moving the computer senses the lack of movements it also does not have a fresh plentiful source coming into the intake chamber causing hotter exhaust temps which causes the ecu to pull timng ultimately reducing power.

Bottomline cars theses days are becoming a complete mystery to weekend tuners

[1badPT]

Originally posted by three.eighteen.
from what i've read the rx-8 has alot of electronic failsafes and checks that prevent it from being dyno'ed properly, in order for it to make 'real' power the front wheels need to be spinning, which is impossible on a dyno

alot of supercars are pretty dyno proof as well, the e46 m3 needs both rear wheels to be spinning in unison to produce max power

If what you say is true, then this would make it a great candidate for chip tuning.

I'm not sure what you mean by the wheels need to be spinning because a dyno involves spinning the drive wheels on the dyno's test wheels.

Edit: do you mean the dead wheels (non drive wheels?)

PS - I agree with you Redlyne_mr2 - reviews I find are very biased but hey, car magazines sell ads to car manufacturers, so they are going to cater to their best customers.

[three.eighteen.]

the scc article made a good point though...fuck how much it makes on a dyno, it probably handles like god...we all know mazda has done their homework when it comes to handling:
-fc
-fd
-miata
-ms protege/mp3

horsepower sells cars these days...doesnt anyone remember that those old ass coopers that were fun to drive had like 70hp, and those were the powerful ones!

[Maxt]

They probably do handle like god, that seems to be the area of focus of all the rotary mags from Japan, since they can't seem to get the power up..
I think you have to accept that even lowly grand ams and pickup trucks are gonna eat you alive from light to light until you dump 8-10k under the hood....
The power rating problem really shows up when compared to the FD in accelaration times, in Rx-7 magazine they do some 1/8th mile testing between the FD, the(g35) skyline coupe, and the rx-8, and its like leading the lambs to slaughter, the fd makes both those cars look pretty bad in real world drag testing, and on the road course, the power deficit shows up again, granted the 2003 FD is probably one of the most capable road cars ever built, but still, at least some of that heritage should show in the '8...Maxt

[Wookey]

I think the RX-8 is deffinetly worthy of being modded. Just need to know the know hows and what things make bigger and smaller power gains.

[Barlow]

did he say he wanted to tune up the motor, or looks, cause looks yeah deffenitely worthy and power is deffenitaly worthy, but looks will be a hell of a lot cheaper.

[Dr. Lightspeed]

Ok here us the scoop right now we have over 500 inquirys and 150 orders for our piggy back unit. I have spent about 3 months now to get this product where I want it.

a) you can not dyno this car not due to the exhaust temperatures but due to the traction control issues. Even with the traction control shut off the wheel speed sensors are kept active for the abs. As soon as the computer does not see the front wheels moving and the rear ones are it immediately pulls 12 degrees of timing. Making it a new procedure on properly dynoing this car which will not be discussed here. There is no temperature sensors monitoring the cats so this rumor that was printed in a mag was just this a rumor. Hmm a mag print misinformation can hardly believe it LOL

b) We made 25 horse on the dyno but more road tuning netted a whole bunch more. Probally due to the fact I got my timing back from the ecu.

c) Was making consitent runs on the G Tech Pro of 15.4 stock this was on a 5 degree day and cold roads so traction was an issue. With the mod consitent gtech runs of 14.10 to 14.11 was being done with our best run being a 13.78 ( this run was absolutely perfect no spinning at all out of the hole or during shifts)

d) This was the comment from everyone that has driven the modded RX8 it felt like a turbo cut in at 5000 rpm.

e) The RX8 is not going to be well suited to a turbo or supercharger mod. Due to engine design flaws. One being way to high of compression.

f) This car handles exceptionally well with the large rotors and weight balance it was alot of fun to drive. Unfortunately in stock trim it is underpowered. I was very impressed this car had no understeer and had to push it very hard to get it to oversteer. With a little more time in the seat and few suspension adjustments this car would be a killer in the corners.

g) No this car is not an RX-7 twin turbo but deffinately a fun car and would not need 8-10 K under the hood. But for those who are intrested Adam at RX7 Specialties has already developed new Apex Seals and has the ability to drop the compression. With these 2 mods this motor would really like a turbo or SC setup. The internals on the stock motor will not handle a turbo or a SC. If anybody could build a good RENESIS it would be him. 14 years as one of the leading rotary builders in the world. Right here in Calgary.

h) This is not going to a monster performer it will not be a supra or a skyline or even a very modded 3 gen but as far as buying a stock car and adding a chip to it the performance is there. The aftermarket is coming on strong for the car. Right now we have the only plug and play solution that will leave no tell tale signs it was even there for the good old warranty program. It is a fun car not a supercar.

[Akagi Redsuns]

Dropping compression requires more than just "newly designed" apex seals. Requires either some grinding on the 13B-MSP rotors (bad idea as you will affect balance), or putting in 13B-REW/13BT rotors. Either way it requires the teardown of the engine, not something I would be willing to do on a brandnew car. You will in the thousands for underhood costs, and for what? The new 13B-MSP's ports doesn't suit turbocharging like the old rotaries. Waste of $$$ if all you are after is more speed. But thats just me I guess.

[Dr. Lightspeed]

You are absolutely right about Apex seals not droppiing the compression that is merely to make the engine survive the increased combustion pressure of a turbo or SC.

[rx7_turbo2]

g) No this car is not an RX-7 twin turbo but deffinately a fun car and would not need 8-10 K under the hood. But for those who are intrested Adam at RX7 Specialties has already developed new Apex Seals and has the ability to drop the compression. With these 2 mods this motor would really like a turbo or SC setup. The internals on the stock motor will not handle a turbo or a SC. If anybody could build a good RENESIS it would be him. 14 years as one of the leading rotary builders in the world. Right here in Calgary.


I think the estimate of 8-10k is reasonable if you want to make decent power out of the renesis say 350rwhp. 8-10k would get you 350rwhp in a second gen or 3rd gen.

You yourself said it would need lower compression rotors. That means ripping the whole motor apart. Then putting in turbo rotors from an older model, which I'm not sure is advisable. When the motor's apart you would want to port it, the porting I've seen from Adam among other things has not been all that good. With all that you still have not built a manifold for it, or purchased a turbo or intercooler. Not to mention an engine management system or fuel mods.

If you could do it cheaper please explain.

[Maxt]

e) The RX8 is not going to be well suited to a turbo or supercharger mod. Due to engine design flaws. One being way to high of compression.
The compression is not a flaw, the engine itself is designed for n/a purposes, thus neccesary for its application...
New apex seal huh?..hmmm.... Wise that, there is no peripheral port to bridge... And 3 mm's are a waste of time period, they do not make the engine any more detonation resistant, despite what others would have you beleive, in fact on rotors designed for 2mm purpose, that have been milled to 3mm's the engine is actually weaker due to the hardened lip of the seal groove having been machined away...
BTW, earlier rotors will not work in a Renesis, they have no cut of seal for the side exhaust port.... so unfortunatly, one is stuck with t the high compression rotors...Maxt

[Dr. Lightspeed]

This post is dirrected to MAXT and RX7-TurboII

First of all BOTH of you seem to have an issue with Adam at RX7 Specialties let me just say this. After you are known as one of the top engine builders in the Rotary world then you may critize porting, 3mm seals and other such technology.

a) 3mm seals are used on the World Record Holding Drag Cars your opinnion means nothing on that issue as they obviously use them because they are better.

b) Structual Mass = Strength this is a known fact. Fransceco Ianetti probally only makes them because they are weaker. ( note sarcasm)

c) the only car that has hardened grooves is the 93-95 TT. When replaced with 3mm seals there is NO structual weakness no different then machining an unhardened Turbo II.

Now onto the my comments that have been challenged by both of you. First of all there is many design flaws in the RENESIS when you have taken one apart you may comment on that other than that your comments are based solely on heresay from what you have read or heard from someone else. Second although the high compression is "not a design flaw for a stock NA engine" it ceratainly does impede adding forced induction to a stock engine as well as certain other components in the engine which you would know if you had actually taken one apart. 8-10 K is not needed to have a fun and quick street car. I did not say a fire breathing dragon. With our mod alone the RX8 ran a 13.78 now this was based on cold and slippery conditions. I will say that most of our runs were were 13.9 to 14.11 but we did manage to get a good one off. This is quite comparable to a stock third gen TT. Not bad I say.

There is one other thing that disturbs me you have basically bashed me and several other people including Adam from Rx7 Specialties a world renown engine builder with an exceptional reputation. We have invested thousands of dollars in time and money buying test cars, buying engines(one brand new from Mazda), and engineering parts. Building and then marketing a product for the automobile industry. We are striving to improve and benefit the automotive community. Continually doing R & D to add to the aftermarket performance world. I don't know who you are but you bash us I ask you what have you added how much money have you spent in the last 6 months on R & D. I have looked inside this car and its motor I am not regurgitating what I have read in SSC or got off the forums. Have you ever gotten props in a magazine or had an entire feature done on you or one of the cars you have built. It is easy to bash someone on the internet when you hide behind a screen name and have absolutely nothing sitting on the line for anybody to critisize. Do either of you pull wrenches all day long or build motors all day long do you make your living in the automobile trade or are you merely enthusiasts who do a little on the side. Not that this makes you bad at what you do but it leaves no place for anyone else to judge your workmanship as you so freely judge others. I am not a rotary expert nor do I claim to be but I have done more R&D on this car in the last few months on a daily basis ( that is from 8 in the morning to possibly 7-8 at night)then most in the industry. I have probally spent over 200 hours in dyno and road time alone. The point of my first post was to merely inform people of what I found out about this car not heresay or I read about it but this is my results of testing this car I feel attacked by both of you on mute technical regurgitated garble points.

[sputnik]

not a fan of the rx-8 body lines myself

[trdjce10]

I didn't like the styling of the RX-8 when I first saw it, but after seeing the Auto Exe RX-8... :drool:

[Maxt]

Why the name Dropping, niether of us mentioned any shops name, you posted alot of myth in your post, about the rotary...

a) Also the two fastest and highest hp cars are running 2mm's so recheck your info... Alot of people use the 3mm's for financial reasons, mainly to save money on rotors, and also when I priced 3mm seals, they were cheaper than the 2mm's...
My, R&D, well a how about seeing how much hp a 3 mm motor can make, I know where its limits are, and where its failure points are, and to date, I have much better results with the 2mm's... Both in compression numbers, leakdown results, and combustion pressure, I have yet to see a locally built 3mm motor crank more than 80 psi on a compression tester, but I can take just about any 2mm motor, and get number well over 90 psi, even with large amounts of overlap built in...
b) By using Iannetti as comparison, you are saying nothing, let me remind you the Iannetti seals are ceramic , were developed for high rpm use, and were developed as 3mm's to fit the earlier 13b rotors, which were all 3mm, till the 2 mm'ers came out in 86... People push 3mm's to sell used rotors that have been remachined, if you think 3mm's are gonna save a motor against detonation, talk to Shauno on the Rx-7 forum, and how many km's he has out of each 3mm motor...Not to many...
c) not true, even TII rotors have the hardened slot.... Not only that , is when you mill the rotor for 3mm, you also reduce the vertical wall of the seal slot, which reduces not only the support for the seal, but also the realestate used to seal the gases...
d) nice attempt to try and paint us as a couple of rubes with nothing to offer, lay off the personal shit... not interested....Maxt

[rx7_turbo2]

I think Max answered the real technical issues very well. The 3mm bullshit has gone on long enough, do your research before you spout that type of shit.

I base my opinion of Adam's work on what I have seen in person. I have now seen the internals of multiple engines built by him. Used parts were often used, and when his "streetport" is compared to the racing beat "streetport" template there is no comparison, Adam's ports are small. I have also seen car's running Adam's streetported motors NONE have had the idle lope associated with a proper streetport.

You critisize me and tell me I don't know my shit because I've never pulled a renesis apart. Fine good point, but don't then go start quoting g-tech time slips. Send me a P.M when your bringing one to the track for a REAL time slip.

I don't know anything about your shop Dr. so I can't comment on your work. I have seen work from Adam's shop, and I think the whole rotary community recoils in fear when you call RX-7 Specialties and the engine building Adam does as world renown, and in the top ten of engine builders. Other than an ad placed in Modified Magazine every month I don't EVER hear his name or the shops name come up.

I don't know everything there is no know about rotary engines and I don't pretend to either. I do however know enough to recognize when bullshit's being tossed in my direction. Get some solid numbers at the track and show us the receipt's, untill you do that our estimate of 8-10k is just as much conjecture as the g-tech times your claiming.

I didnt want this debate to become a flame war, but you seemed to get your panty's all in a bunch.....

[bj4life]

what about an rx-7 any ideas for mods... any body kit suggestions?