Homebuilder - Foundation Cracks

[anarchy]

I built a townhouse with Cardel and took possession in December 2009. I've since had a home inspector come out and he noticed that there were originally cracks in the foundation that were patched before I took possession, but since then there are two significant cracks that are 3/8 inch wide (Alberta Home Warranty considers 1/8 inch significant).

I've informed Cardel and they pretty much dismissed my home inspector. They brought out their "foundation guys" and they said it's fine, nothing to worry about and they want to fill it in.

I don't want this as a temporarily solution, clearly my foundation is still shifting and at a significant rate. I asked one of my neighbours and he said he has four significant cracks in his foundation.

So my question is: What can I do about this? They are basically downplaying it and saying they just need to fill it. Do I wait until my one year is up and contact Alberta Home Warranty (which is funded by the home builders)? My home inspector suggested I contact a lawyer if they don't budge. I'm going to touch base with the rest of my neighbours but just wondering if anyone has any suggestions.

I won't be home for a couple days but will try to upload my home inspection report with photos when I have an opportunity to do so.

[Kloubek]

3/8" is pretty significant. Basically, the rule of thumb (as I've been told) is if you can stand a loonie up in the crack it needs to be addressed. Clearly, this needs to be addressed.

With that said, I've also been told that settling after a new build IS normal, and that it is almost impossible to keep a floor crack-free. Are these cracks in your floor as I suspect, or are they in the walls? The walls are an entirely different issue and much more concerning.

[anarchy]

They are in the walls, not the floor, which is why I knew my neighbour would have cracks as well.

[D. Dub]

I'd spend the money and get a proper structural engineers report with a recommended course of action.

Fax it to Cardel so they know you're not fucking around.

That way you're sure Cardel fixes it right and if they don't/won't -- you can have ammo for your Home Warranty company or for a small claims court case.

[anarchy]

Originally posted by D. Dub
I'd spend the money and get a proper structural engineers report with a recommended course of action.

Fax it to Cardel so they know you're not fucking around.

That way you're sure Cardel fixes it right and if they don't/won't -- you can have ammo for your Home Warranty company or for a small claims court case.
So you're suggesting I spend my own money to hire a structural engineer? That's too bad, it should really be Cardel's responsibility.

They replied to me and quoted Alberta Home Warranty which basically says a crack larger than 1/8 inch is significant and requires repair, but it doesn't state what repair means which is why they just want to fill it.

[Kloubek]

Which way do the cracks run? Horizontal or vertical?

If vertical, they should be tended to, but are probably curing cracks. If they are horizontal (generally around mid-way up the wall), that indicates outside pressure which is something of particular concern.

Either way, fight tooth and nail for proper fixing. The last thing you want is moisture coming through the wall into your home.

[anarchy]

They run vertical. Cardel says they are from shrinkage and curing as well, but I think filling it in is just a temporary solution.
Btw the cracks are on my side walls which are adjacent to my neighbours, not the outside.

[theken]

Those walls won't let moisture in then so there is no cause for concern. They can fill those, if it is an exterior wall then you will have problems with moisture.

[Kloubek]

Oh sorry... townhouse. Duh.

Honestly, and I am by no means an expert in the field, I think that simply filling them should do the trick. If you don't have to worry about moisture issues (being a dividing wall), and they are vertical curing cracks, I really don't think it is a huge deal.

But that's just one uneducated man's opinion.

[bignerd]

Originally posted by anarchy

So you're suggesting I spend my own money to hire a structural engineer? That's too bad, it should really be Cardel's responsibility.

They replied to me and quoted Alberta Home Warranty which basically says a crack larger than 1/8 inch is significant and requires repair, but it doesn't state what repair means which is why they just want to fill it.

So why don't you just call Alberta New Home Warranty and ask what the recommended repair is or what course of action you should take? Your home inspector does not know what repair is needed, only that the cracks are signifigant if over 1/8 of an inch becase ANHW says so?

[anarchy]

Originally posted by bignerd


So why don't you just call Alberta New Home Warranty and ask what the recommended repair is or what course of action you should take? Your home inspector does not know what repair is needed, only that the cracks are signifigant if over 1/8 of an inch becase ANHW says so?

I will be calling them for sure, I'm just taking what they say with a grain of salt because ANHW is funded by home builders, and from what I've heard they usually side with the builders (but could be completely wrong about this.)

I was just hoping someone here could give me an idea of whether I should be worried or not or whether filling it in is appropriate.

My home inspector doesn't feel filling it in is enough and is concerned because the cracks are significant in a short period of time and it tells him that the house is shifting. He's not an expert in structural engineering either.

Thanks everyone for your opinions and suggestions. I'll check with ANHW and see what they say. Moisture isn't an issue but I'm just worried about major structural damage. If filling it in is appropriate, then I'm good with that. I just want to make sure it doesn't require more attention before my one year is up and it'll be too late to file a complaint through ANHW.

[Wrinkly]

I would strongly advise getting third party independent input immediately.

Go to a foundation specialist such as Abalon. (No affiliation whatsoever). They will consult with you and provide a quote for free.

We have similar problems with two properties and repairs will total over 120K. This is possibly why Cardel are telling you it's fine and want to fill it in. It MAY be, but it may not be. Have an expert in the field confirm either way for you.

Did they install weeping tile?

How are doors and windows in the house - any sticking or rubbing. Even very slightly?

Also check around the house for hairline cracks in drywall (look closely - easy to miss when slight). Especially at joins between ceiling and wall, or "spidering" out from corners of door/window frames.

[Wrinkly]

accidentally quoted myself instead of editing..lol

[anarchy]

Originally posted by Wrinkly
I would strongly advise getting third party independent input immediately.

Go to a foundation specialist such as Abalon. (No affiliation whatsoever). They will consult with you and provide a quote for free.

We have similar problems with two properties and repairs will total over 120K. This is possibly why Cardel are telling you it's fine and want to fill it in. It MAY be, but it may not be. Have an expert in the field confirm either way for you.

Did they install weeping tile?

How are doors and windows in the house - any sticking or rubbing. Even very slightly?

Also check around the house for hairline cracks in drywall (look closely - easy to miss when slight). Especially at joins between ceiling and wall, or "spidering" out from corners of door/window frames.
Thanks Wrinkly, I'll look into Abalon.

I'm choked I have to pay for someone to evaluate and confirm they need to fix something. I'm assuming there's no way for me to recoup these costs even though they refuse to do their own evaluation. I already paid for my own house inspector, which they are dismissing anyways.

I'll check with ANHW and then Abalon afterwards.
Thanks again.

[Wrinkly]

Abalon have a web site with some interesting info and pics as well: http://www.abaloncanada.com/index.shtml

Good luck - and keep us posted!

[happy tree]

Three eighths is a lot more than curing. Your foundation has settled unevenly, its not an easy fix. I'm wondering if they even put rebar in the concrete because normally it would keep the crack from growing any wider than a sixteenth. Check your drywall throughout the house, if it is pulling apart in corners and door frames than it is time to lawyer up.

[anarchy]

Just a quick update:
Called Alberta New Home Warranty.

They said they will provide an inspector to come out for $105 along with the builder and review the damage. They will decide if further evaluation is necessary by a structural engineer. The problem I had with this was that their report is binding which means if they decide further evalutation isn't necessary and filling in the cracks is an acceptable solution, my only option of appeals is taking the builder to court.

I haven't had a chance yet but will be calling a structural engineer and possibly the foundation guys and if really necessary, a lawyer. Obviously I'd like to avoid these costs if possible but I may have no other choice.

I'm wondering whether I should pay the fee and have the ANHW inspector come out first, then if he decides no further evaluation is necessary, start hiring my own people, or if I should be doing that before having the inspector come out.

[Wrinkly]

Why pay them when you could get your own specialist out to consult for free? (Abalon didn't charge us anything - even after spending several hours preparing a detailed quote with list of work to be done and equipment/materials to be used).

[anarchy]

Originally posted by Wrinkly
Why pay them when you could get your own specialist out to consult for free? (Abalon didn't charge us anything - even after spending several hours preparing a detailed quote with list of work to be done and equipment/materials to be used).
Good to know!

I called Abalon after work but they were closed so I left a message. I'll see what they say when they give me a call, but I'm not sure if they would be the appropriate authority to force Cardel to repair it properly. I might need an actual structural engineer for that.

Thanks for the tips guys.

[Wrinkly]

Originally posted by anarchy

Good to know!

I called Abalon after work but they were closed so I left a message. I'll see what they say when they give me a call, but I'm not sure if they would be the appropriate authority to force Cardel to repair it properly. I might need an actual structural engineer for that.

Thanks for the tips guys.

I doubt they can "force" anyone to do anything. That would be a legal issue - but I do believe that the guy that came to us was a structural engineer (not 100% certain - it was a while ago) so he may be able to produce the proof via his report of what needs to be done in your case.

Again - good luck with it and keep us posted.

[anarchy]

Just got off the phone with Abalon, they were more than happy to come out and were excited to hear that they came recommended so strongly through an online community :thumbsup: They're coming out on Thursday.

As Wrinkly said, their expert will come out to do their evaluation and provide their recommendations at no cost which is awesome.

I have no idea whether this is a major issue or not, I just want an expert to tell me whether it is or not. It's truly unfortunate that Cardel has failed to recognize this, choosing to instead tell me that it should be fine because they've filled in thousands of cracks before without a problem.

Customer service fail :thumbsdow

I emailed them and let them know, this will absolutely be the last home I purchase with Cardel.

[Kloubek]

Well, quite honestly, you're assuming this is a big issue. And it very well might be - I guess you will find out shortly.

However, it is *possible* that it isn't a big issue, and Cardel is doing all they need to do by filling the cracks. On such an unlikely event, perhaps it is premature to be claiming they are failing on customer service...

[anarchy]

Originally posted by Kloubek
Well, quite honestly, you're assuming this is a big issue. And it very well might be - I guess you will find out shortly.

However, it is *possible* that it isn't a big issue, and Cardel is doing all they need to do by filling the cracks. On such an unlikely event, perhaps it is premature to be claiming they are failing on customer service...
Well, the way I see it, I'm not an expert by any means, so I can only rely on those that I deem are experts, which is exactly why I hired a home inspector.

My home inspector tells me this seems to be a big issue, so I should investigate further. I'm not just taking his word for it - ANHW guide says anything greater than 1/8th of an inch is excessive. Now does that mean my house is falling down? No, but is it unreasonable for me to request a proper expert evaluate it and give me piece of mind that it's not an issue?

In my opinion, it would be mighty foolish of me not to ask for further evaluation by an expert while within my warranty period after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into my home. Like I said, I acknowledge that filling in the cracks may very well be the proper solution - but how can I simply rely on Cardel's "word" that it is?

My inspector (with 20+ years of experience) tells me it's a concern, and ANHW's own guide tells me it's three times the size of what they consider acceptable. Perhaps Cardel doesn't owe me anything other than offering to fill the crack, but I don't think it's a reach for me to say that it would go a long way in instilling confidence with Cardel if they simply offered a proper expert (whether it be foundation guy or structural engineer) to properly evaluate the damage.

A hundred bucks, maybe two, to have a engineer ensure it's not a big problem to give me confidence in buying a home from Cardel in the future. That's a pretty good investment, no?

[bignerd]

Yes, spending a couple hundred bucks to get something that is potentially very expensive to fix checked out is not a waste. IF it does turn out there is a more severe problem you could always argue with Cardel about the fee you had to pay then, or sue them for it.

[Kloubek]

For sure it is worth it. It doesn't just give you piece of mind, but gives you great ammunition on the event you have to fight for decent workmanship.

[anarchy]

Update:
So I had Todd from Abalon come out, and he was great. Really nice guy and seemed very knowledgeable.

He took a look at the cracks, and said the one crack they originally filled in before I moved in is the most concerning to him, as it's about half an inch in size. It was right under a support beam which should have a "saddle" underneath it to help support the weight, but that's what is likely causing the cracks.

Having said that, he doesn't think there are structural issues as i would likely notice cracks on along the floor as well, and other tell-tale signs like cracks in the walls upstairs, doors not opening and closing properly etc.

He said Cardel/ANHW wouldn't do much except fill in the cracks because they'll say it's not structural, but his recommendation was to put two metal braces on the walls after they fill it, so that it'll keep it from cracking any further. It's mainly for when I sell the house. The cost is $400 for both braces and labour.

I'm not sure what would be more concerning to a home buyer when I'm go to sell my house, a crack in my foundation or a two braces keeping it together.

[D. Dub]

IMHO you're dealing with the FOUNDATION -- get an engineer that knows their stuff -- not some guy that wants your money to fix it.

[Z_Fan]

Wait. Wait. Wait.

You built with Cardel and had problems?

:poosie:

I agree on getting an engineer. Cardel should send one at no charge. And you should request his credentials.

[theken]

you want an engineer to come out for a foundation (which is essentially a sound barrier to the other house) that a foundation expert has already told him it is not structural? you guys are seriously fucked in the head. D.Dub, Z_fan im talking to you guys.

[D. Dub]

1. The so called "foundation expert" was there for an estimate (aka looking to make money).

2. The home inspector (20 yrs experience) was stressed about it.

3. Foundation repairs, french drains/sump systems can easily get into the $50K range.

4. Foundations with minor issues with time and bad luck can turn into foundations with big issues & fail catastrophically and cost $100K +

5. It's the FOUNDATION.


I'd rather pay a few bucks now for an expert opinion.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by theken
you want an engineer to come out for a foundation (which is essentially a sound barrier to the other house) that a foundation expert has already told him it is not structural? you guys are seriously fucked in the head. D.Dub, Z_fan im talking to you guys.

Non-structural foundation? What are you smoking?

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by theken
you want an engineer to come out for a foundation (which is essentially a sound barrier to the other house) that a foundation expert has already told him it is not structural? you guys are seriously fucked in the head. D.Dub, Z_fan im talking to you guys.

While I understand now that the foundation section in question is not designed as a moisture barrier (not required in a townhouse setup), I would argue it is very much a structural requirement.

Exactly what do you THINK is holding up that 1/4 of the home?

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by anarchy
I have no idea whether this is a major issue or not, I just want an expert to tell me whether it is or not. It's truly unfortunate that Cardel has failed to recognize this, choosing to instead tell me that it should be fine because they've filled in thousands of cracks before without a problem.

Customer service fail :thumbsdow

I emailed them and let them know, this will absolutely be the last home I purchase with Cardel.

My personal opinion from owning a Cardel home is that they are one of the WORST home builders in Calgary when it comes to quality. They don't give two shits about customer service, I too will NEVER buy another Cardel home. They have excuses for everything...