Resilient Channel aka Soundbar - 90% Failure Rate???

[broken_legs]

So literally everyone and their dog has been telling me to use resiliant channel aka Sound Bar to cound proof the ceiling.

I had only one person out of 15-20 people tell me it was a bad idea.

I finally got around to researching it and found that it has a 90 % FAILURE RATE

Apparently a single screw touching a stud will cause what's known as a short circuit and remove all of the sound proofing.

My plan was to use Roxul Safe and Sound i the joists and drywall on resilient channel. Has anyone done similar?


Has anyone had issues with using resilient channel on ceilings?

Have you used POT lights with this ceiling?

Thanks!


http://www.soundivide.com/PDFs/new/Resilient%20Channel%20Article%20062904.pdf


Resilient Channels:
A Proven Liability
Walls with higher STC values have been achieved
for years using a variety of construction techniques.
Today, many high-quality multi-family projects
target STC-65. Code is now STC-50 for minimum
“for sale” construction and for rentals that might be
converted to “for sale”. Even though most resilient
channel assemblies are not able to meet such
requirements, they still show up in projects, usually
due to a lack of understanding about newer, reliable
technologies (such as QuietRock).
Resilient Channel is Easily Short Circuited
When installed correctly in
pristine lab settings, resilient
channel improves STC ratings
by about 5-7 points or more,
depending on construction.
However, resilient channel is
easily “short circuited”, so
very careful handling and construction techniques
must be followed — so careful in fact, that few, if
any, can actually achieve the desired result in the
field. For instance, no screws can ever touch a stud
or floor/ceiling assembly, drywall must not touch
floors or adjacent walls or ceilings, no pictures or
shelves can be hung on the wall where the fastener
screws into the studs, etc. If even one does, it can
destroy any gain that would have been had on the
entire wall.
Noise is the #2 Litigation Issue in Multi-
Family
Recent investigation (often due to litigation) has
shown that resilient channel construction has a
post-construction failure rate (STC designed value)
of 90%. Given nationwide litigation history and
concerns regarding party walls and floor/ceiling
assemblies, especially in multi-family, one must be
beyond careful using this technique, if one were to
still use it at all.
Acoustical engineering consultants are frequently
called in to provide expert testimony in issues that
result in mediation, arbitration and litigation. The
failure rates and causes of failure have been
accumulated over a growing body of such field
investigations using field STC measurements. Often,
the acoustical engineer has to invade the wall to find
the culprit. Litigation on noise issues is becoming
more frequent, and the cost of litigation and
settlements have risen sharply.
90% Failure Rates = High Contingencies
With the established 90% field failure rates of
resilient channel, many large developers set aside up
to $30,000 per unit for future litigation and
warranty repair costs, litigation that has often
included noise issues due to RC failure. While using
resilient channels is appealing only from a
construction cost perspective (ignoring litigation
risk), developers, architects, and builders must be
fully aware of the difficult construction
requirements, as well as the post-construction failure
rate and litigation risk before still considering using
them.

Roxul Safe n Sound Ratings:
http://www.roxul.com/residential/create+a+quiet+home+with+safe%E2%80%99n%E2%80%99sound/safe%27n%27sound+ratings

[CUG]

I was looking at building a sound room out of my whole basement. I've heard of this stuff. Again, there's no replacement for displacement. There needs to be density between the source and the outside of the property/room.

Loads of high density insulation/sound dampening material will be the only decent way of doing that. Keep in mind that you have to change your light fixtures to be enclosed and to meet fire code if you do.

That sound channel is bullshit for sure. If it's solidly built all around and contains high-density shit, it will work way better in my completely unprofessional opinion.

[broken_legs]

So heres a little snippit from this link:

http://www.guardianbp.com/litlib/Naima_BI405.pdf

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj259/broken_legs/PotLightsRC.jpg


I'f im using normal pot lights that mount onto the joists, it appears I cannot use resilient channel. F!


So what do I do here now? Do I take back the joist mounted pot lights and replace them with the ones that you just drill a hole into the drywall and mount? This is F'n annoying.

:banghead:

[broken_legs]

According to Roxul, you only get 45 STCs with RC and Roxul in between the joists w/ 5/8 board.



1. The original RC-1 used in most lab tests no longer
exists. USG stopped making the product in 1985. Most test
results are based on STC tests conducted 10 or more years ago
on different fabrications. As there is no standard for RC
channel fabrication, the various resilient channels available
vary greatly in their resilient (stiffness) characteristics. Using
currently available RC channels that are often too stiff or that
have holes the wrong size or shape results in reduced STC
values. There are few current RC channels available that have
recent test results based on their actual fabrication and design.

2. Dead on arrival. RC channels are thin and prone to damage
from shipping or on-the-job storage. Any bend in the channel
can cause shorting. We have multiple reports of damaged RC
channels that are deployed because by the time the damage is
perceived, it is too late to re-order.

3. The RC channels are placed too close together. If this
happens, the composite stiffness of the wall will be too high
and will result in reduced sound insulation.

4. The RC channel is often drawn on the architectural
plan and/or installed upside down. In such instances, the
weight of the drywall pushes the channel into the studs
(instead of pulling it way from the studs when installed
properly) thus causing a short circuit in the wall, resulting in
poor sound insulation.

5. The RC channel extends too far and touches an
adjoining wall. This error causes a short circuit in the wall
resulting in radically degraded sound insulation.

6. A screw is placed incorrectly. While the drywall is being
attached to the resilient channel, a screw that accidentally
attaches into a stud or touches a stud at any point will short
circuit the wall and result in poor sound insulation.

7. Insufficient gap between the wall with the resilient
channel and any adjacent wall. If the drywall attached to
the RC channel touches the drywall on the adjoining wall, the
wall will be short circuited, resulting in reduced STC value.

8. Drywall is not installed properly. If the subcontractor
adds drywall that is beyond spec (e.g. adding a layer of Type X
to meet fire code), the resulting structure can sag, and the
weight of the drywall on the resilient channel can cause the
wall to touch the floor, causing a short circuit in the wall,
resulting in poor sound insulation.

9. Electrical junction boxes attached to the stud and to
the wall. This common error causes a short circuit in the wall
and result in poor sound insulation. This mistake is easy to
make with the faceplate, which must also be isolated, or by not
cutting enough of the drywall away around the junction box.
The same principle applies to ceiling attachments such as
lighting and fans.

10. Gaps around the junctions. If junction boxes at the wall
are sealed with standard caulk that hardens over time (instead
of non-drying non-skinning acoustical sealant), or not sealed
with anything, this will cause a short circuit (or air gap) in the
wall, resulting in poor sound insulation.

11. Resilient ceiling. If the ceiling is also resilient, the walls and
the ceiling cannot touch each other. To achieve this, it is
recommended the walls be put up before the ceiling. This is
counter to standard drywall installation practice.

12. Actions of other subcontractors. When RC channels are
used in floor/ceiling assemblies involving stuffing materials
into the open truss, the risk is magnified. Plumbing, HVAC
and electrical materials are routinely attached inside the small
cavities in ways that guarantee short-circuiting the RC channel.

13. Green wood warping. Most multifamily housing (such as
west of the Mississippi River) is made of the less expensive
green wood, which dries after installation. The drying process
can distort the framing by as much as 1/2" in extreme
situations; 1/4" is common. This torque can bring the RC
channel in contact with other elements and cause a short
circuit.

14. Moisture & humidity warping. In high-humidity areas
(such as the Eastern seaboard), humidity can bow and buckle
drywall, 1/4" to 1/2" in many cases. This distortion can bring
the RC channel in contact with other elements and cause a
short circuit.

15. Foundation settling. Foundation settling, the #3 cause of
litigation, is a common occurrence. A 1/4" or 1/2" settling
distortion can bring the RC channel in contact with other
elements and cause a short circuit.

16. Language barriers. The high incidence of RC failure
contrasts with good results established in the top labs. This
discrepancy points out the need to have highly trained,
disciplined personnel supervising and performing the
installation. In many construction crews, many of workers are
foreign-born. The ability to communicate in English fluently,
understand and execute written and verbal instructions for
something as delicate as RC channels is required.

17. Owner/tenant actions. If, during the life of the property,
the owner or tenant installs materials to the wall, such as a
picture or lighting, the wall can easily be short circuited. In the
case of hotels, many products are routinely attached to the
walls for various reasons, including anti-theft and seismic
restraint: bed head-board, writing desks, open shelving system,
closet shelving, refrigerator, safe, sconces, mirrors, paintings,
bathroom shelving, television wall stands, decorative wall
hanging, crown molding, baseboard, wainscoting. For rigidity
and security, these products are attached to the studs by
screws, which invariably cause a short circuit and significantly
reduce the STC rating of the wall. Similarly, if RC channels are
used in ceiling construction, any lighting (including track lights
and ceiling fans) introduced post construction could reduce the
ceiling’s STC value. Also, any retrofit for new communication
technology, that requires a junction box to be attached to the
wall will significantly reduce the wall’s STC value. This is
particularly risky because the location of the studs and RC
channels is hidden and difficult to find post construction.
Either the wall or ceiling has to be left alone for the life of the
property or significant post-construction risk occurs.

18. Furniture. If the owner (or hotel guest) moves heavy
furniture (e.g. bed, desk) against the wall with force, it can
cause the resilient channel to bend slightly and touch the studs,
thus causing a short circuit in the wall, reducing the wall’s STC
value.

[CUG]

Originally posted by broken_legs
So heres a little snippit from this link:

I'f im using normal pot lights that mount onto the joists, it appears I cannot use resilient channel. F!


So what do I do here now? Do I take back the joist mounted pot lights and replace them with the ones that you just drill a hole into the drywall and mount? This is F'n annoying.

:banghead: Gator don't fuck with shit.

They're calling for a disconnect between the lamp housing and the roof boards. That's a megabitch. I've yet to see anything available like that without completely recessing everything and just putting a bezel in the ceiling hole that isn't touching anything above it. In fact, I haven't even seen that.

I don't see why you can't mount the lamp housing higher into the floor joist and leave whatever clearance you need.

There's a "short" even if it's done their way, it's the electrical wiring for the lamps.

You're fucking with some code there, I'm sure.

[garnet]

Originally posted by broken_legs
I'f im using normal pot lights that mount onto the joists, it appears I cannot use resilient channel. F!

So what do I do here now? Do I take back the joist mounted pot lights and replace them with the ones that you just drill a hole into the drywall and mount? This is F'n annoying.
:banghead:

they make acoustic fire retardant light hoods for use with a decoupled ceiling and pot lights installed
ask where you purchased through, they should be able to supply you

the common failure they refer to happens where the screws attaching the ceiling board to the tabs, extends up enough to contact or into the joists

for DIY, decouped ceiling structure can be a challenge, so unless it's for some professional use (like recording) you just might be better with good old roxul batton and 5/8" board, added bracing between joists helps too

[eblend]

Does anyone know where to buy this resilient channel stuff in Calgary?

Also, do you have to leave a gap between the sealing and the walls, if you didn't would that cause a short?

[garnet]

Originally posted by eblend
Does anyone know where to buy this resilient channel stuff in Calgary?

Also, do you have to leave a gap between the sealing and the walls, if you didn't would that cause a short?

there is an acoustical padding strip that gets used at the top and bottom of the walls

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by garnet


there is an acoustical padding strip that gets used at the top and bottom of the walls


Originally posted by eblend
Does anyone know where to buy this resilient channel stuff in Calgary?

Also, do you have to leave a gap between the sealing and the walls, if you didn't would that cause a short?


This is another thing that doesnt make sense to me. Even with this acoustical strip in there, you're still going to short out the ceiling panel or wall panels when you tape and mud. Mud = hard = short.

This almost seems like witchcraft to me.

I'm looking now at going to double 5/8" board with green glue in between. Equivalent of roughly 30$/sheet.

Got a price on Quiet Rock here in Kamloops and its 85$/sheet F That!

[mr2mike]

I Put resilient channel in my basement ceiling. Mostly to stop people's foot steps from eating right through the ceiling.

Did it work? Definitely.

But my pot lights down there are in the bulkhead which did not have sound clips on it. I filled it with insulation and it seems fine.

In all honesty, I found the big sound leaking area to be the ducts. If there's shared ducting, you're screwed. No sound prevention wil help.

Bought my stuff from here:
Best price I found but shipping will kill you.
Shipping was almost the same price as the material just so you know.

[eblend]

Originally posted by broken_legs





This is another thing that doesnt make sense to me. Even with this acoustical strip in there, you're still going to short out the ceiling panel or wall panels when you tape and mud. Mud = hard = short.

This almost seems like witchcraft to me.

I'm looking now at going to double 5/8" board with green glue in between. Equivalent of roughly 30$/sheet.

Got a price on Quiet Rock here in Kamloops and its 85$/sheet F That!


How did you get $30 per sheet price? A tube of greenglue is like $20 in itself ,and you need at least 2 tubes per each sheet.

Just checking

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by eblend



How did you get $30 per sheet price? A tube of greenglue is like $20 in itself ,and you need at least 2 tubes per each sheet.

Just checking

The greene glue website says 1-2 tubes per sheet. Just picked up a case of glue and the instructions that came with it say that 1 tube gives you 70% effectiveness as 2 tubes.

EDIT: (Liberally applying PL400 in same tube size for sub floor worked out to about 1-2 tubes per sheet as well)

I pay 15$/tube at winrock.

I pay 9.87 for a sheet.

If I used 2 tubes it would be $35 dollars, but i plan on using one 'and a bit' for each sheet.

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by mr2mike
I Put resilient channel in my basement ceiling. Mostly to stop people's foot steps from eating right through the ceiling.

Did it work? Definitely.

But my pot lights down there are in the bulkhead which did not have sound clips on it. I filled it with insulation and it seems fine.

In all honesty, I found the big sound leaking area to be the ducts. If there's shared ducting, you're screwed. No sound prevention wil help.

Bought my stuff from here:
Best price I found but shipping will kill you.
Shipping was almost the same price as the material just so you know.


^^^ No linky.

I already have a bunch of the normal stud mounted pot lights that I was planning on using from Hom Depot.

After realizing that lights need to be surface mounted, I am switching to the "Retro-Fit" style. They are 17$ for 5" enclosures, and they are insulation contact rated. You just cut a hole in the drywall and they mount to the board with clips - This way there is no contact with the joists.


So right now my setup (as planned) is this:

1 - Board the walls first

2 - Board the ceiling with 1/4" spacing to wall
- Resilient channel
- 1/2" board
- 1-2 tubes of greene goo
- 1/2" board
- Surface mount pot lights
- PL Acoustic sealant around the 1/4" gap and all boxes and fixtures

The only thing im having trouble understanding now, is how you can screw in the second board. YOu cant screw it into drywall so it must go into a stud - So wouldnt that short out the dampening effect you get from the glue?

Not to mention that when you mud the ceiling to a non-resilient wall thats shorting out the whole joint.

freaking witchcraft i tell ya
:banghead:

[CUG]

Broken legs, I apologize for my offensive posts.

[eblend]

Originally posted by broken_legs


The greene glue website says 1-2 tubes per sheet. Just picked up a case of glue and the instructions that came with it say that 1 tube gives you 70% effectiveness as 2 tubes.

EDIT: (Liberally applying PL400 in same tube size for sub floor worked out to about 1-2 tubes per sheet as well)

I pay 15$/tube at winrock.

I pay 9.87 for a sheet.

If I used 2 tubes it would be $35 dollars, but i plan on using one 'and a bit' for each sheet.

When you say "I" does that mean some contractor pricing or is that what it retails for there?

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by eblend


When you say "I" does that mean some contractor pricing or is that what it retails for there?

Not that much more retail. 18.90 for one tube, 13$ for a sheet me thinks?

F... reading my post i clearly failed at math. lol so 2 sheets = 20$ + another 22$ for 1.5 tubes of glue. well make that 42$ per sheet equivalent.

Found that CCS will give me 1/2" (aka 510) QuietRock for $50/sheet. I think i will stick with the homemade version because its easy and you get ' more mass'


Story time...
About 3 months ago I had no stroke anywhere in town and I was paying top dollar for everything.

Now after walking into every hardware and building store in town for a while they all know me.

I get contractor discount (2003) at Home Hardware.

At Winrock I just ask them to 'Make it Better'.

I was drinking beers with the chick from CCS so i get contractor discount there now too.

Home Depot I always lie and say it sells cheaper somewhere else to meet and beat by 10% - AWESOME WAY TO SAVE MONEY IF ITS UNDER 50$ savings as no manager approval needed - ie pay 5$ for something thats worth 50$ lol. Since they know me they never ask for proof, and the manager just come over and bullshits with me if its a big discount in the hundreds. I took the head cashier out on a couple dates so she retros all sorts of discount for me onto my home depot credit card and makes purchases interest free :D Home Depot membership has its benefits ;)

Rona? Fuck Rona. lol

[eblend]

Originally posted by broken_legs


Not that much more retail. 18.90 for one tube, 13$ for a sheet me thinks?

F... reading my post i clearly failed at math. lol so 2 sheets = 20$ + another 22$ for 1.5 tubes of glue. well make that 42$ per sheet equivalent.

Found that CCS will give me 1/2" (aka 510) QuietRock for $50/sheet. I think i will stick with the homemade version because its easy and you get ' more mass'


Story time...
About 3 months ago I had no stroke anywhere in town and I was paying top dollar for everything.

Now after walking into every hardware and building store in town for a while they all know me.

I get contractor discount (2003) at Home Hardware.

At Winrock I just ask them to 'Make it Better'.

I was drinking beers with the chick from CCS so i get contractor discount there now too.

Home Depot I always lie and say it sells cheaper somewhere else to meet and beat by 10% - AWESOME WAY TO SAVE MONEY IF ITS UNDER 50$ savings as no manager approval needed - ie pay 5$ for something thats worth 50$ lol. Since they know me they never ask for proof, and the manager just come over and bullshits with me if its a big discount in the hundreds. I took the head cashier out on a couple dates so she retros all sorts of discount for me onto my home depot credit card and makes purchases interest free :D Home Depot membership has its benefits ;)

Rona? Fuck Rona. lol

Case of beer and I buy my greenglue from you? Haha, 4 bucks time 40 is an extra 240 bucks, so it does make a difference haha

[broken_legs]

Originally posted by eblend


Case of beer and I buy my greenglue from you? Haha, 4 bucks time 40 is an extra 240 bucks, so it does make a difference haha

Dude, call Winroc. Tell them you know its going for 15$ a tube. You might want to call around and see if anyone is selling the 5 gallon buckets - 365 qf ft per pale and it comes with a big ass applicator gun.


I just ordered up 2 boxes of 'Quiet Putty' for 57 a box. (thats a 15% markup on whant DRYCO (dryco.ca) sells for. But then again, if i bought from them, id have to pay a courier to get it up to Kamloops from Surrey. This way it will get delivered to winrock.