rwd vs 4wd challenge

[Hakkola]

So this has been bothering me for awhile, I see a lot of people who think awd/4wd is the shit but they use all-seasons etc, and I have a feeling my rwd with studded tires will outperform a lot of the awd/4wd crowd.

Not entirely sure how to make this happen, but I was thinking maybe we could get some fwd/rwd/4wd/awd cars together and make an obstacle course and see how we compare with different setups. It wouldn't be a perfect test obviously since we have varying amounts of power etc but it is something that I think would be interesting.

Ideas, comments?

[projekz]

That'd be fun. I'm thinking empty parking lot... you would have to set out some rules like : who's got winter tires and who doesn't. I think sedans would be the easiest, for example G35, G35x, Altima...

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

My family has

2007 BMW Z4M with Pirelli Sottozeros
2010 BMW 135i with Pirelli Sottozeros
1992 Nissan 180SX with Dunlop Winters
1998 Jeep Cherokee with A/S but they look much more like a winter tire

I could bring out my Nissan or Jeep, dunno if my parents want me borrowing their cars.

I would be interested to see what happens.

[Xtrema]

If just have more wheels spinning with AWD without the right tires.

My boss's 335xi was a good example.

[gretz]

Can I enter a FWD?

[sillysod]

I will bring a 4wd station wagon with blizzaks on if this is a go.

If you want something exciting I can bring my dropped A4 with summer tires, a big turbo and brutal turbo lag (nothing... nothing... nothing.... 25psi... AWD SPINNNNNNNNN). haha

[wintonyk]

you would need to compare different awd systems too. Its like the test they did a while back with subaru awd vs toyota 4wd etc.

would be interesting to see.

No doubt in my mind though that myself on summer tires in a rwd is better than half the soccer moms in their awd suvs.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by gretz
Can I enter a FWD?

Yes. We have to find a good spot and time to do this. Would like to do it legally of course.

Anybody know how long the snow is supposed to last? It would probably be best to do it on a fresh dump.

[projekz]

Tuscany Home Depot parking lot is always nice, fairly open plus it's away from unwanted attention.:dunno:

[Scuderia]

Originally posted by projekz
Tuscany Home Depot parking lot is always nice, fairly open plus it's away from unwanted attention.:dunno:

x2, used to do some winter drifting there all the time.

[nobb]

This sounds like fun. Any ideas on what you'd like to accomplish for this and how to do it? eg. setting up pylons and doing timed runs, acceleration/braking/cornering tests etc...

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by projekz
Tuscany Home Depot parking lot is always nice, fairly open plus it's away from unwanted attention.:dunno:

I want to do this completely legal, so we'd have to get permission from Home Depot or whoever owns the lot.


Originally posted by nobb
This sounds like fun. Any ideas on what you'd like to accomplish for this and how to do it? eg. setting up pylons and doing timed runs, acceleration/braking/cornering tests etc...


I was thinking pylons and a timed run, though separate tests might be a good idea.

[FraserB]

Im down, I'll test out the 4wd and mud tires section

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Hakkola
So this has been bothering me for awhile, I see a lot of people who think awd/4wd is the shit but they use all-seasons etc, and I have a feeling my rwd with studded tires will outperform a lot of the awd/4wd crowd.

Not entirely sure how to make this happen, but I was thinking maybe we could get some fwd/rwd/4wd/awd cars together and make an obstacle course and see how we compare with different setups. It wouldn't be a perfect test obviously since we have varying amounts of power etc but it is something that I think would be interesting.

Ideas, comments?

More of a comment - I have an AWD subaru and a RWD bmw both equipped with snow tires. There is no comparason. The subbie is superior. Im sure if I threw the garbage all seasons back on the subaru the AWD advantage would dissapear in all but maybe straight line acceleration.

[black13]

Interesting idea.
I'd be curious to see who would do better in an uphill start. I think a rwd w/winters and a 4wd w/o winters would perform almost the same but not sure.

Don't see how braking on a 4wd vs. rwd/fwd would make a difference. Main factor there would be tires.

And good choice of cars would be a 350z/g35 w/winters and a newer maxima w/o winters since they got the same engine and what-not.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Legally you have to not only get permission, but insurance if you want to race on somebody's lot in case you damage their property, in addition to that you need to have people sign an insurance waiver. Oh and be prepared to get hassled...

Yeah, I didn't think about insurance, but from the beginning I didn't think a parking lot would suffice, which is why I didn't mention it at the start.

I think the only real option would be private land, I'm not going to suggest or participate in anything illegal, especially when I'm doing it through beyond.

^^Yeah, the brake test would be useless.

What I'm most interested in here is how I fare with rwd and studded tires vs awd with regular winters or just all seasons for the simple reason that is see so many people brag about their awd winter driving capabilities and I don't think awd is a substitute for quality tires. I'm also interested in fwd etc... as well if others are.


Originally posted by Aleks


More of a comment - I have an AWD subaru and a RWD bmw both equipped with snow tires. There is no comparason. The subbie is superior. Im sure if I threw the garbage all seasons back on the subaru the AWD advantage would dissapear in all but maybe straight line acceleration.

I have no doubt that the subie is superior with the same tires, what I want to know is if the bimmer in this case is as good as, or better with superior tires.

It would be great to have a 3 series rwd with studded tires against a 3 series xi with all seasons or winters to compare.

Unfortunately my studded tires are on the E320 and not the 328i.

[nobb]

Ghost Lake would be a viable idea. Don't they usually have yearly ice races there? Just wait until right after the ice races are done so you know the ice is thick enough then you can have your own little event on the lake. Just make sure there isnt going to be too many people or too many cars parked in one area to limit the stress on the ice.

This would be the best choice. Wide open space, lots of fun.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Bizzareo]

I'm down, I mean chevettes have there own league for ice racing :D

~50hp + rwd + Winter tires and sandbags = fun :D

[Hakkola]

Just googled it, only about an hour away, perfect. Alright, looks like we'll have to wait a little while.

[Sugarphreak]

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[stevo 27]

i know my alltrac with bald motomaster all seasons was 1000 times better than my mustang with studded winters on all four corners

alltrac if i didnt wanna spin a tire i didnt

but would under steer unless i was on the gas

straight line awd wins

low speed handling rwd with good tires wins

high speed awd wins

last winter the alltrac was on the road she had studded on all four and it was sex

[Sugarphreak]

...

[tsi_neal]

Sort of did this tonight, moved the RWD with new snow tires to the garage and the AWD on balding all seasons to the street, but went around the block first. Other than moving from a stand still the AWD was useless, but would move from a stop with ease. from a standstill the RWD still likes to spin, otherwise is great. Oh AWD is center torsen and open front/rear differentials and the RWD is a viscous LSD. I am a big fan of snow tires always have been but they are only as good as the driver.

[r3ccOs]

IMO -- the latest rendition of technology with the variable assist/traction control/lock brakes and viscus coupled AWD transfercase with a real locking 4hi/low 4x4 with the proper sized tires for the weight of the vehicle with proper tread will give you the best traction overall...

I myself own a 03' chevy tracker 2.0L which is gutless, but it doesn't make enough torque to break my tires loose under 2500 rpm in RWD in most stuff other than pure ice, let alone 4x4
It weights 2764 w/ a full tank due to some weight reduction to accomodate my lift and 32" tires...
Not only do I have a 4hi/lo transfer case, but I put in a lunchbox locker which basically adds much much more traction under all conditons. (100% in just rwd)

Coupled w/ the 32" Wrangler Terrorititories (which are snowflake rated) running @ just 25psi (cause I can, as its so light)

I can pretty much get through just about anything...

with a locking transfer case, both axels run at the same speed... helping with reducing understeer and oversteer during cornering and also allows for engine braking across all 4 tires as opposed to just the rear... (yes the transfer case can handle slight engine braking)

mind u, when its unlocked... its just a RWD ;)

and in just RWD, its very drivable, but NOWHERE near close to the traction as 4wd

[Scuderia]

I'm in for the ice racing event if you can set it up.

[Wrinkly]

Originally posted by Hakkola

I was thinking pylons and a timed run, though separate tests might be a good idea.

Some tests you could do would be like some of the videos posted from youtube about tire comparisons:

1) Accelerate to a set speed from a start point. (Time & distance traveled)

2) Brake from a set speed to a 'finish' point. (Time & Distance traveled)

3) Take a marked curve at a set speed (direction traveled and how well control was maintained)

Vehicles:

2x FWD (one with all-season, one with winter)
2xRWD (ditto)
2xAWD (ditto)
2x4x4 (?) (ditto)

Be cool if you could get identical vehicles for each pair, too - just to even it out. And, as someone mentioned, interesting to compare different brands of F/R/AWD too.

Cameraman would be the icing on the cake.

[jdmXSI]

If you need an AWD with winters I wouldn't mind donating time and my car for this experiment:D

[texasnick]

I would be down for some testing. This is my first real opportunity to try my car out in the snow (bought last February). I never realized how spoiled the AWD crowd was, but now I can see that the GT4 was made for conditions like we've had the last 2 days.

I have a set of Goodyear Nordics on it.....they aren't studded.

PM me if you want to test the Toyota 4WD

[89coupe]

LOL, an AWD vehicle with winters will out perform any RWD with winters PERIOD!

[arian_ma]

Originally posted by 89coupe
LOL, an AWD vehicle with winters will out perform any RWD with winters PERIOD!
Maybe in acceleration, but AWD doesn't do shit for stopping. That is 100% tires.

As someone who daily drove an S2000 over the winter, I think tires are 90% of the equation. Of course, AWD will have more traction, but unless you are stuck in a snow bank or wanna do amazing 0-60 times...:whocares:

[n1zm0]

Originally posted by arian_ma
Maybe in acceleration, but AWD doesn't do shit for stopping. That is 100% tires.


i'd have to dispute that and say engine braking in an AWD car does something for stopping faster, but i agree tires are the heavy favorite to fix lots of traction issues.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[arian_ma]

Originally posted by n1zm0


i'd have to dispute that and say engine braking in an AWD car does something for stopping faster, but i agree tires are the heavy favorite to fix lots of traction issues.
You gonna engine brake on ice?
:dunno:

I stand by my statement. If you want to brake, and you're hitting the brakes and engine braking, you're demanding too much from all 4 tires (similar to trying to take a corner while on the gas). I'd go as far as to say that thinking about it mathematically, a RWD car while engine braking will do better than an AWD car (Edit: or a FWD car for that matter).

[Chester]

Hey if you can't stop with AWD at least you can turn the steering wheel and power out of the soon to be collision.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Pretty broad statement... how about a Subaru Leone driven by your mom VS a BMW 750i driven by Antone L'Estage?

Huh? WTF does that have to do with my statement?

Did I mention anything about who is driving the vehicle?

Use some common sense.:facepalm:

[SScott]

I'm pretty interested in this.

I have an 04 Avalanche 4x4 with Brand new All Seasons.

I can fish tail that thing so easily even in 4x4, it boggles my mind, very frustrating. It almost feels like 4WD doesn't do this big ass boat any favours

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Aleks]

Originally posted by arian_ma

Maybe in acceleration, but AWD doesn't do shit for stopping. That is 100% tires.

As someone who daily drove an S2000 over the winter, I think tires are 90% of the equation. Of course, AWD will have more traction, but unless you are stuck in a snow bank or wanna do amazing 0-60 times...:whocares:

Like I said i have both a RWD and AWD with snow tires. AWD just moves easily from a stop, it moves easier going up inclines, it makes turns a lot better in snow, lane changes accross deep snow are easier etc. I think the argument here is RWD with snow tires vs AWD with all season.

[Ashers]

You should also cover the two types of AWD. There's the proper full-time AWD, like the Subaru or Audi A4 system and the automatic part-time system, such as my Escape, the CR-V, Audi A3, VW Tiguan. Then there's just plain part-time 4x4, such as the Tracker and most trucks.

[BigBadVlad]

If this happens I can participate with an Evo 1. Yes it's RHD but last time I checked that didn't affect the cars grip or traction.

I've got both Falken 512 All Season performance tires on summer wheels and winter/snow (Yokohama?) tires on stock wheels. I was surprised at the admirable job the 512's (they're M+S rated hehe) did last year when I drove on them for the first snow or two but definitely no comparison with the snows.

The car only weighs ~ 2700 lbs so in some circumstances that will be an advantage over a heavier, more modern car and in others situations possibly not. Be interesting to see if technological advances on heavier cars make up for the added weight and then throw in All Season versus Snow tires and RWD vs. AWD....

I know my car is really good on snow and ice with the winters on. But better than a heavier car with a more modern AWD system? dunno... How much do WRX'es weigh in the last couple years anyway?

Looks like about 3100-3200lbs. A difference of about 4 to 5 hundred lbs..... hmmmm....

[89coupe]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Jeeze, already busting out the facepalm...

You made a broad statement that doesn’t cover any of the variables involved; nothing about any of the car or tire manufactures, type of performance activity, skill of drivers, type of vehicle mechanical systems, type of traction electronic control assists that one car might have over another.

The example I gave was extreme to make a point; common sense would dictate that you would weigh these things out before making such a definitive statement.

I think there are a lot of situations where a RWD car would outperform an AWD car.

The objective is to find out whether a RWD vehicle with winter tires could out perfrom an AWD vehicle with winters.

If you are dumb enough to think a RWD vehicle would out perform an AWD vehicle in any aspect of winter driving, you are clearly mental.

[max_boost]

.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by 89coupe


The objective is to find out whether a RWD vehicle with winter tires could out perfrom an AWD vehicle with winters.

If you are dumb enough to think a RWD vehicle would out perform an AWD vehicle in any aspect of winter driving, you are clearly mental.

AWD with winters for sure.

For example. AWD 2010 WRX with Hankook Ipike vs FWD 2010 GTI with Hankook Ipike

I don't know if it's better in every way but I would take the Subaru just for traction alone.

BUT.......


Originally posted by Hakkola
So this has been bothering me for awhile, I see a lot of people who think awd/4wd is the shit but they use all-seasons etc, and I have a feeling my rwd with studded tires will outperform a lot of the awd/4wd crowd.



Originally posted by Aleks
I think the argument here is RWD with snow tires vs AWD with all season.

There's no need for a challenge then. In this weather, it's all about the tires.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[89coupe]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


(Ignoring the fact you are generalizing again)

How about braking then... an AWD car VS a RWD with nearly identical features, transmission, weight and tires.

If you have a RWD manual car, theoretically you have independent control over the rear wheels with engine braking and coupled with front bias brakes you would actually be able to modulate them independently giving you superior control.

An AWD car on the other hand would force you to put all of the engine braking power to all of the wheels, which amplifies the front brakes when you use them... and as a result could cause it to break traction sooner than a RWD car.

LOL, wtf kind of nonsense bullshit are you spewing?

[ATARI]

call top gear , haha

[Sugarphreak]

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[HiSpec]

I think one of the variable we need to factor in and keep it consistent is, all vehicles must be using the same winter tires, preferrably with same tread level.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by HiSpec
I think one of the variable we need to factor in and keep it consistent is, all vehicles must be using the same winter tires, preferrably with same tread level. No, this isn't important to what I was thinking, what I'm hoping to show is that tires are more important than drivetrain when it comes to winter driving.

So what I want to prove is (better rubber + rwd) > (worse rubber + awd)


Originally posted by Aleks

I think the argument here is RWD with snow tires vs AWD with all season.

Exactly.

[DannyO]

I'd be down for this, got an STI with Winters I could test out.

As for AWD on all seasons vs RWD with winters, cars and drivers being pretty much equal I would have to give it to the RWD especially if it had studs.

There are still many variables I would have to know about before I could say with confidence which would be better though.

[soccernut]

I think that there is too much grey area. I think you need to be more specific. Not all 4wd/Awd are created equal.

Last year during that big dump of snow. Me and my friend decided to have some fun on the streets.

My friend had a Mercedes M Class with AWD. I have an FJ Cruiser with LSD (when in open diff), VSC (Saved my ass on the highway), and Most importantly...Diff Lock and ATRAC (Which acts like a 4 wheel diff lock). I had All Terrain Tires.

during that night we say MANY AWD stuck in the snow:

Toyota Venza with winters.
Kia Sorento
My friends M class was stuck in front of his house. The same spot I was parked at and came out of with ease.

My point is:
It seems like a debate over the issue came up between you and a friend and you think you can settle it in this way.

There are just too many variables involved. Its not just AWD vs RWD and Winters vs All Seasons


With that said, I would love to enter my FJC (AT's) and 4Runner (Muds) if the tests are a go.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by Hakkola
I'm hoping to show is that tires are more important than drivetrain when it comes to winter driving.

There's nothing to prove man. The only ones who disagree are the ones with skills and common sense and don't need winter tires. :D

[doctortalon]

Originally posted by arian_ma

Maybe in acceleration, but AWD doesn't do shit for stopping. That is 100% tires.



sorry to repost but...

there is an advantage to having full Time AWD, = Full time AWD engine breaking. might make a difference.

i would be interested to bring my talon out tsi awd with hankook ipikes.

[r3ccOs]

I'd be willing to bet that a 4-runner like vehicle (fj cruiser/pathfinder/heep) in 4wd low with a rear locker on w/ BFG AT KO's (or Goodyear Duratrac or even my Territorys) which are technically all seasons, would beat any RWD car with just Blizzaks (regardless of traction control and lsd aids) quite easily in not only a stright line, but stopping... even with the locker off
(with locker off, I'd say even cornering)

I had a GTI w/ studded Nokian's and it was a blast to drive in the winter, but when the going got bad, there is nothing like having two driving axels to pull you up a hill and the clearance to not get stuck.

I even had Mud Terrains on before.... (well they were siped, but they are not winter tires)

a locking transfer case really doesn't just regulate but distributes equally the torque and speed between the two differencial...
The difference really is that you can apply the torque to the diffs more effectively through all 4 tires... another benefit again is with the regulated speed between the two differencials and that the power is truely split at the transfer case...
1 - You can engine brake to all 4 wheels
2 - as both diffs are travelling at the same speed (though the diff differenciates the wheels)... even when cornering, the tire & axel with less slip helps tract the other set at the same speed, reducing the unpredictablity.

Viscus cuplink based center differencials that do not lock really rely on computer/ABS sensor based traction aids as opposed to mechnical ones.
Though not bad, as it helps apply torque to the wheels that need it dynamically and on demand. Great for a passanger car or mini-van that spends 100% of the time on the road.

When truely in a bad situation, or where one set of differencials are no longer in contact or have too much slip... you're sometimes just stuck spinning... (even if you have open axels on a locked transfer case vehilcle, you at least have the other driving axel)
I'm also not a fan on relying on wheel hub sensors that often can freeze to get me through a bad situation. - but again on a vehicle that spends 100% of its time on cleaned roads that have to only compensate for the occational bad weather scenerio... not bad

[soccernut]

Judging by the OP's other thread (http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&threadid=321250&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1) . The RWD in question is pretty low. I am assuming we are talking about shallow snow/ice conditions.

Last winter we had a few occasions where snow was well above 6 inches on the side streets. Which adds to my argument that there are way too many variables involved than just drive train vs tires.

OP, I don't care what kind of tires you have on your benz. It will not go the places my FJ w/allseasons will. And I am talking about winter driving inside Calgary.

[StreetRacerX]

Damn I hope we can do that Ghost Lake thing, I want to slide around on the lake with my beater.

[bspot]

Another great test is to go to the roads down the hill between Renfrew and Bridgeland such as 4a St and 5th St between 4th and 5th ave NE.

They always close these after a big snowfall and me and a friend used to have fun driving around the barrier (they still have cars that are parked on that street so there is always room) and stopping on the hill facing uphill and seeing if we could get going.

[r3ccOs]

Maybe dean folk can run some siped pitbulls (all-seasons) on his hooters truck vs a merc w/ studded winters?

lets see who'll win that one...

another thing too...

I often deflate the tires to increase my contact patch on my AT & mud tires... basically the other principle other than adding weight
works for me...

[justincalgary]

Is this just strictly for the AWD people, or for people that actually have 4x4?

I have an 09 Wrangler 2 door with all seasons, that I am sure any RWD with studs couldn't beat in snow.

[r3ccOs]

Or anyone with a rubicon and AT tires with factory locking front & rear diffs...

G wagons included

for those who doubt all season all terrain tires:
These are snowflake severe rated

http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/images/tire-selector/tires/all-terrain-t-a-ko.jpg

http://www.tires24.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nat020209wranglerduratrac.jpg

http://www.cherokeeforum.com/members/jrhockey03-3900/albums/my-jeep/4895-wrangler-territory.jpg

http://www.expeditionr.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/trxus-mt.jpg

http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/69/76/62/09/0069766209368_500X500.jpg

tread depth are generally 18-21/32 of an inch...
+ more ground clearance (usually even a 31x 10.5 will give 10" of axel clearance)
+ another driving axel + mechanical traction aids like a locker or LSD

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by soccernut

OP, I don't care what kind of tires you have on your benz. It will not go the places my FJ w/allseasons will. And I am talking about winter driving inside Calgary.

I haven't found a place I can't go as long as I have clearance. Nokian Hakka's, studded. I've never been even close to being stuck with them, I have difficulty just teasing the back end out.

[zipdoa]

Originally posted by Hakkola


I haven't found a place I can't go as long as I have clearance. Nokian Hakka's, studded. I've never been even close to being stuck with them, I have difficulty just teasing the back end out.

I think soccernut would have quite a time trying to get around in Montgomery when it is icy.

I have a torsen center diff and locking rear diff, coupled with snow tires, and when I start from a dead stop on some the hills around there it can get hairy.

Why don't we have hill climb competitions? completely legal and easy to find a nice icy hill in the city..

[StreetRacerX]

^Those don't look overly cheap, as far as I'm concerned people buy all seasons because they cost less than winter tires, and they "THINK" they can use them all year round with no problems, they don't realize that it would far safer to use tires designed for the weather.

People don't realize how important it is to equip their vehicles with the proper tire, just today I experienced how terrible your typical All Season performs when going up a slight incline with a bit of ice on it, I was heading home and not half a kilometer north of Glenmore on 101st in the SW I suddenly lose all traction and begin the ol sliding backwards routine in the company van, I won't get into this companies policies with vehicles but know I was cursing the company as I slid backwards forcing people to go around or back up, I was the only one having any sort of trouble going up the incline.

[r3ccOs]

I just had to push a CLS 55 AM on 130th ave...

guess what.... it had blizzaks on it

guess what... me and the guy in the 4runner (w/ BFG ATs) made it through just fine

[nobb]

Originally posted by StreetRacerX

People don't realize how important it is to equip their vehicles with the proper tire, just today I experienced how terrible your typical All Season performs when going up a slight incline with a bit of ice on it, I was heading home and not half a kilometer north of Glenmore on 101st in the SW I suddenly lose all traction and begin the ol sliding backwards routine in the company van, I won't get into this companies policies with vehicles but know I was cursing the company as I slid backwards forcing people to go around or back up, I was the only one having any sort of trouble going up the incline.

Im assuming it's RWD? You need weight in the back. I would assume that from an acceleration standpoint, RWD + all seasons + weight over axles > RWD + winter tires + no weight.

[D911]

Originally posted by r3ccOs
I just had to push a CLS 55 AM on 130th ave...

guess what.... it had blizzaks on it

guess what... me and the guy in the 4runner (w/ BFG ATs) made it through just fine

Dont those thing make like >400hp?

guys probably and idiot and slamming the gas to try to get places..

[TacoMexicano]

Originally posted by StreetRacerX
^Those don't look overly cheap, as far as I'm concerned people buy all seasons because they cost less than winter tires, and they "THINK" they can use them all year round with no problems, they don't realize that it would far safer to use tires designed for the weather.

^ This.

In years of driving around in this city, I find that most people want to save the couple extra bucks because their all-season tires do just fine in the winter.

Give those same people a day with a good set of winters....

And to be honest, my 4WD wrangler with its MT's "does fine" in this weather, but I still feel much better running my winter tires. I can accelerate fine with the MT's but its braking at icy intersections or some emergency stop that i might have to make that made me get some winters.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[arian_ma]

Originally posted by D911


Dont those thing make like >400hp?

guys probably and idiot and slamming the gas to try to get places..

500 hp

[benyl]

Originally posted by arian_ma


500 hp

469hp ;)

[kvg]

This sounds like fun but I don't think it will prove anything, unless you get the same car like a Benz/Infiniti/BMW in rwd and awd. Other wise this mind as well be a track day type event.:dunno: Sounds fun though.:thumbsup:

[C4S]

Good RWD car (not Muscle car from 70's) with snow/studded tires will do fine on bad snow, and will outperform many tiny awd with all season ..

However, AWD/4WD + snow/studded tires rocks! :D

[ercchry]

Originally posted by r3ccOs
Or anyone with a rubicon and AT tires with factory locking front & rear diffs...

G wagons included

for those who doubt all season all terrain tires:
These are snowflake severe rated

tread depth are generally 18-21/32 of an inch...
+ more ground clearance (usually even a 31x 10.5 will give 10" of axel clearance)
+ another driving axel + mechanical traction aids like a locker or LSD

32" for me and more than 10" ground clearance ;)

buut, lockers only will work in low range... so not too helpful at speed

i think that my 4x4 would do pretty good at this challenge since i can put it in 4hi with trac on for my launch then shift to 2hi and turn off trac to sling it around the cones with ease... plus with the 32" tires i will have no issues with chunks of snow/ice

[ercchry]

Originally posted by StreetRacerX
... I won't get into this companies policies with vehicles but know I was cursing the company as I slid backwards ....

ooohhh the good old days :rofl:

yeah rwd astro with BALD all-seasons was fun... pretty happy the alternator went on that pos and they never fixed it

and the old cranky supervisor claiming that you dont need new tires, just learn to drive... yeah okay!

[gretz]

Originally posted by ercchry



i think that my 4x4 would do pretty good at this challenge since i can put it in 4hi with trac on for my launch then shift to 2hi and turn off trac to sling it around the cones with ease... plus with the 32" tires i will have no issues with chunks of snow/ice

I think the test should have a "hot-lap" and a "race" from a stop... we know that AWD will have the edge out of the hole, but a "fastest hot-lap" time will determine which accels, brakes, handles, etc... better...

Also, an unbiased (agreed upon) "tester" should try all of the different cars / setups to get an honest comparison at what felt better where (sounds dirty lol)

I think driver skill is going to come heavily into play, which is why a "test person" would get the best results...

[r3ccOs]

Let's see if Ben Collins is available? Or maybe see what is out there in the stig farm?

[muse017]

Lets have Winter Olympic beyond meet at Sylvan Lake!!!!
like this~
AFe8DYpvKAU

[Kardon]

I'd like to see how my full-time 4wd Land Cruiser would fair with studded 33" duratracs :D

[alloroc]

Originally posted by Hakkola
So this has been bothering me for awhile, I see a lot of people who think awd/4wd is the shit but they use all-seasons etc, and I have a feeling my rwd with studded tires will outperform a lot of the awd/4wd crowd.

Not entirely sure how to make this happen, but I was thinking maybe we could get some fwd/rwd/4wd/awd cars together and make an obstacle course and see how we compare with different setups. It wouldn't be a perfect test obviously since we have varying amounts of power etc but it is something that I think would be interesting.

Ideas, comments?

I have owned all three types of vehicles front - rear - awd

They would out accelerate you.

but stopping and cornering etc compared to you would be laughable.

[Alak]

WaUFy5c9JMM

[nobb]

Anyone know how long it usually takes for the lake to freeze over? I think you should probably have 15" or over of ice to make this safe.

Maybe someone has an ice drill?

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/image/article/dec06/thin-ice-chart.gif