Alberta lists homosexuality as ‘mental disorder’ [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

Neil4Speed

12-30-2010, 12:32 PM

I don't know if this was posted before, but was told about it and absolutely couldn't believe it.

The amazing things are that the Act was revised in 05! They treated homosexuality 1,782 times between 1995-04. This begs the question, how were they "treating" homosexuality?

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/health/Alberta+lists+homosexuality+mental+disorder/4011255/story.html

EDMONTON — Alberta continues to list homosexuality as a “mental disorder” along with bestiality and pedophilia, and doctors used the diagnostic code to bill the province for treating gays and lesbians more than 1,750 times between 1995 and 2004, government records show.

The province has known about the classification for more than a decade and the Conservative government first promised to change it in 1998. On Tuesday, Health Minister Gene Zwozdesky repeated that promise.

“It has no place in Alberta,” Zwozdesky said, adding he has called for a review of the entire 300-page diagnostic code. “It is simply an incorrect and unacceptable classification and I’ve ordered it to be removed immediately.”

The diagnostic code is used by doctors when they bill the province for services provided to Albertans.

The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of mental disorders in 1973, followed by the Canadian Psychiatric Association in 1982. Eight years later, in 1990, the World Health Organization removed homosexuality from the 10th version of the International Classification of Diseases, known as the ICD-10.

In 1998, then-health minister Halvar Jonson said the province was in the process of changing the codes.

“A new coding structure has been developed which Alberta Health is considering,” Halvard wrote in a letter to then-Liberal health critic Gary Dickson. “This new coding will address the concerns regarding the classification of the diagnostic code for homosexuality.”

Alberta’s current diagnostic codes were last updated in 2005, the same year that British Columbia removed homosexuality from its list of mental disorders and four years after China did so.

In Alberta, homosexuality still falls under the heading of Mental Disorders: Sexual Deviations and Disorders. It is at the top of the list and is followed by bestiality, pedophilia, transvestism, exhibitionism, transsexualism, disorders of psychosexual identity, frigidity and impotence.

Neither Zwozdesky nor Alberta Health and Wellness spokesman Howard May could explain why Alberta’s diagnostic codes have not been revised.

“These are not Alberta’s codes, they were developed by the World Health Organization, under international guidelines, and are in use in many provinces,” May said.

Asked why Alberta’s current codes are based on the 1975 ICD-9 and not on the 1990 ICD-10 that drops homosexuality from the list of mental disorders, May said in an e-mail: “The codes are extremely complex. It would be a vast undertaking to change them.”

Human-rights activist Rob Wells has been fighting to have the code removed for more than a decade and launched a human-rights complaint against the province on Dec. 15.

“People point to the diagnostic codes to justify their homophobic bigotry,” he said. “It is used by a lot of fundamentalists to justify their homophobia, to claim that homosexuals are diseased.

“It also reinforces the negative stereotypes that many health-care professionals still have.”

Using access to information laws, Wells obtained government data showing doctors billed the government using the diagnostic code for homosexuality 1,782 times between 1995 and 2004. The province could not provide more recent data on Tuesday.

Liberal MLA Laurie Blakeman first raised the issue in the legislature in 1999.

“It’s just so wrong, it’s sickening,” she said. “Here we are in 2010 and the Conservatives are still living in 1950. ... I still hear some of them talk about how this is a ‘lifestyle decision.’ ”

Dr. Andre Grace, director of the Institute for Sexual Minority Studies at the University of Alberta, said the code is an abrogation of the government’s responsibility.

“What we have seen over the years is a government in this province … that have not changed their opinion of gay and lesbian people,” he said. “Something like this is just another indication that we are indeed second-class citizens in this province.”

Alberta Medical Association spokesman Ron Kustra said the association is involved in service codes that set doctors’ fees, not the diagnostic codes.

“The diagnostic codes are the responsibility of Alberta Health and Wellness,” he said. He could not say whether the AMA would take a position on the issue.

Alberta Psychiatric Association president Dr. Douglas Mann said the psychiatric community no longer considers homosexuality to be a mental disorder.

“Homosexuality has been deleted as an illness, per se, but I think there’s a big political component to that,” he said. “There are a broad group of conditions that have political overtones.”

He couldn’t explain why the codes haven’t been updated, either.

“That would be a political move,” he said. “It’s certainly not a medical issue.”

To see the diagnostic codes, human-rights complaint and 1998 letter visit the Capital Notebook blog at edmontonjournal.com

Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/health/Alberta+lists+homosexuality+mental+disorder/4011255/story.html#ixzz19ca1fhSy

old&slow

12-30-2010, 12:54 PM

So are you trying to say it's not a mental disorder?:D

Porsche_55

12-30-2010, 12:57 PM

WOW Alberta is such a redneck province.

st184

12-30-2010, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by old&slow
So are you trying to say it's not a mental disorder?:D
:rofl: +1, I was thinking the same thing.

kevie88

12-30-2010, 01:03 PM

Homosexuals are wired incorrectly, but I don't believe it's something that could possibly be 'treated' with some pill or through other methods. It's just that your sexuality is hooked up backwards.

I could no more 'turn gay' than a homosexual can 'turn straight'. If someone said to me tomorrow "Ok, you have to be gay now!" I couldn't possibly do it. I like boobies waaaayyy too much.

I was having this argument with my father in law the other day, he believes it's a choice to be gay or straight. That's just crazy talk.. you can't change what you like. I've noticed my 1 year old boy absolutely LOVES the pretty girls on TV, he'll just stop whatever he's doing and stare at them haha. You're born with the wiring you have and that's it.

rob the knob

12-30-2010, 01:06 PM

how come no such disorder in Iran? hmmmph.

st184

12-30-2010, 01:08 PM

http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

They aren't sure either way, but my theory is that its a nurture issue. Most homosexuals that I'm friends with or have met have some sort of daddy/mommy issues, but that's just my theory. If then, it's not proven to be definitively either a mental disorder or genetic why is therapy such a wild concept?

Tik-Tok

12-30-2010, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by kevie88

I was having this argument with my father in law the other day, he believes it's a choice to be gay or straight. That's just crazy talk.. you can't change what you like. I've noticed my 1 year old boy absolutely LOVES the pretty girls on TV, he'll just stop whatever he's doing and stare at them haha. You're born with the wiring you have and that's it.

Does he love the pretty girls on TV so much, he wants to be them? :rofl:

Nice to see China is several years ahead of us on this one, lol.

kevie88

12-30-2010, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Tik-Tok

Does he love the pretty girls on TV so much, he wants to be them? :rofl:

Nice to see China is several years ahead of us on this one, lol.

I don't know, he can't talk yet! However he is magnetically drawn to shoes.. hmmm

93VR6

12-30-2010, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by kevie88
Homosexuals are wired incorrectly, but I don't believe it's something that could possibly be 'treated' with some pill or through other methods. It's just that your sexuality is hooked up backwards.

I could no more 'turn gay' than a homosexual can 'turn straight'. If someone said to me tomorrow "Ok, you have to be gay now!" I couldn't possibly do it. I like boobies waaaayyy too much.

I was having this argument with my father in law the other day, he believes it's a choice to be gay or straight. That's just crazy talk.. you can't change what you like. I've noticed my 1 year old boy absolutely LOVES the pretty girls on TV, he'll just stop whatever he's doing and stare at them haha. You're born with the wiring you have and that's it.

My sister has two friends, identical twins one is gay and one isn't... Sounds like a choice to me since the two identical twins are "wired" the same are they not?

kevie88

12-30-2010, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by 93VR6

My sister has two friends, identical twins one is gay and one isn't... Sounds like a choice to me since the two identical twins are "wired" the same are they not?

Nope. There is no such thing as a perfectly identical twin. All of the identical twins I know have minute differences and as I got to know them I could tell which one was which just by looking at them.

derpderp

12-30-2010, 01:25 PM

Can someone explain to me how this is considered adding it too a list, typical media bullshit.

Not removing from list doesn't = adding.

They only removed it in 2005 in BC which leads me to believe that the politicians/bureaucrats working at the speed of government are telling the truth when they admit they just haven't taken the time to do anything about it yet.

msommers

12-30-2010, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by 93VR6

My sister has two friends, identical twins one is gay and one isn't... Sounds like a choice to me since the two identical twins are "wired" the same are they not?

Two of my roommates are identical twins, actually two guys that I've grown up since I was a kid. Their personalities are totally different.

Melinda

12-30-2010, 01:46 PM

My sister in law has two sisters. The three of them grew up together in the same house, same parents, same everything. Out of the 3, one of them is gay. It isn't a "nurture" issue, a person is most definitely born gay or straight.

Like I've said quite a few times on here, go walk through the super old graveyards over in England and Scotland. There are graves there that actually say a man was executed for the "sexual deviation" of liking other men. NO ONE would 'choose' that lifestyle if death was the consiquence, yet there the graves are.

CUG

12-30-2010, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by rob the knob
how come no such disorder in Iran? hmmmph. How noble of them. Must mean good country.

kdwebber

12-30-2010, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Melinda
My sister in law has two sisters. The three of them grew up together in the same house, same parents, same everything. Out of the 3, one of them is gay. It isn't a "nurture" issue, a person is most definitely born gay or straight.

Like I've said quite a few times on here, go walk through the super old graveyards over in England and Scotland. There are graves there that actually say a man was executed for the "sexual deviation" of liking other men. NO ONE would 'choose' that lifestyle if death was the consiquence, yet there the graves are.

how can you be certain that a gay person was born that way? I like to think that some are born gay and some choose to be gay. However I don't go around claiming that everyone gay HAS to have been born that way.

Toma

12-30-2010, 08:23 PM

Homosexuality is on a spectrum range, with biological "fixed" cause way over at one end, and "societal/learned" behaviors on the opposite end.

There are PLENTY of studies that show that homosexuality can be biological, if I remember, it is abnormal cell cluster in a region of the Amigdala (it's been years since I read the papers and took neuro physiology, so it may have been another region).

And what about the Greeks and Roman soldiers that were encouraged to be lovers?.... surely that was more "societal".

The lead research at the time was carried out by a couple gay scientists, and they were lambasted by the gay community for suggesting that being gay was a disease, and not always a choice.

Fuck I hate PC shit.

So yeah, whether societal, or mis-developed brain formation, gayness "can be treated". Societal with psychology and therapy, and potentially gene therapy or even medication for the latter.

Not sure where it went, research into what causes it and its treatment is almost completely politically incorrect these days, which is too bad.

In fact, there was some work in the field, where a developing fetus could be swayed one towards being "straight" by introducing certain hormones at particular phases of development.

Muji

12-30-2010, 08:26 PM

Leave it to a Louie CK clip (from his great TV show) to clear things up:

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/a8ac764340/louie-s-poker-scene

Neil4Speed

12-30-2010, 08:26 PM

I think I am more upset that our tax dollars have been going to "treating" homosexuals, not a few isolated incidents either - 1766 times over 10 years.

Toma

12-30-2010, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Neil4Speed
I think I am more upset that our tax dollars have been going to "treating" homosexuals, not a few isolated incidents either - 1766 times over 10 years.

Why not? It IS a disease. Either of the mind, or physiological, see my post above.

We spend money researching Downs Syndrome and other physiological/developmental disortders, and we also spend money researching learned/psychological behaviors and disorders.

I don't want my kid being gay and if male, having a much higher probability of contracting HIV etc.... (and before your panties get in a bunch, check the stats of the percent straight men that have HIV versus percent gay men that have HIV)/

rob the knob

12-30-2010, 08:35 PM

i quote now
will post later

Originally posted by Toma

Why not? It IS a disease. Either of the mind, or physiological, see my post above.

We spend money researching Downs Syndrome and other physiological/developmental disortders, and we also spend money researching learned/psychological behaviors and disorders.

I don't want my kid being gay and if male, having a much higher probability of contracting HIV etc.... (and before your panties get in a bunch, check the stats of the percent straight men that have HIV versus percent gay men that have HIV)/

KRyn

12-30-2010, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Porsche_55
WOW Alberta is such a redneck province.

Yes with our Muslim mayor and everything we are so redneck.

Muji

12-30-2010, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by KRyn

Yes with our Muslim mayor and everything we are so redneck.

Yeah that pretty much tosses the redneck tag out the window. Now if the mayor were a gay, wheelchair bound muslim.... you might have a case.

rob the knob

12-30-2010, 09:05 PM

muslims are some of most conservative persons in world.

muslim beliefs are very much right wing in canada versus left wing.

left wing is for woman rights, gay marriage, abortion, and such. muslim not for these things.

Originally posted by KRyn

Yes with our Muslim mayor and everything we are so redneck.

ZEDGE

12-30-2010, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Porsche_55
WOW Alberta is such a redneck province.

Yes, lets condemn the whole province... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by rob the knob

left wing is for woman rights, gay marriage, abortion, and such. muslim not for these things.

Thats a pretty narrow minded stereotypical thing to say...

Most people in Alberta (All of Canada for that matter) have no problem with these. Conservatives in Canada are more liberal than the actual liberals in the US. Canadian conservatives are more fiscal than they are social. This isn't Alabama or Arkansas.

J-hop

12-30-2010, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by Toma

Why not? It IS a disease. Either of the mind, or physiological, see my post above.

this is the most ignorant post i've read in a while. Homosexuality is not a disease. It is not an ailment that harms their body, that "patients" have to cope with their whole lives. Saying people are wired "wrong" is just stupid too. The fact that they are "wired" differently than the norm doesn't mean anything.

Saying they suffer from a disease or are wired wrong is as ignorant as the dumb asses that think Africans are inferior to whites. We all know people that think one race is superior to another are dumb as shit so why do similar ways of thinking still crop up. Especially saying someone is inferior due to their sexual orientation.

Originally posted by Toma

I don't want my kid being gay and if male, having a much higher probability of contracting HIV etc.... (and before your panties get in a bunch, check the stats of the percent straight men that have HIV versus percent gay men that have HIV)/

Gay males supposedly being more susceptible to contracting AIDS, is not a result of them being gay, it is the result of them being uniformed.Contracting aids (in the gay population) was/is the result of the tissues inside the anus being easy to tear and thus direct contact between the penis and infected blood is easier than vaginal sex. Now before you say "you've proved my point", this is NOT the cause of gay people contracting aids the problem is a lot of kids are not instructed on the importance of condoms for preventing STIs which is infact MORE important than preventing pregnancies. A kid you can adopt out, or have an abortion etc. Lots of STIs you can't get rid of. So if you're a good parent you instruct both your straight and gay children to use condoms for both reasons and they will be equally safe.

plus your straight son can still pick it up easily if he has unprotected sex with a girl or decides to have unprotected anal sex with a girl (no him being straight won't give him some magical immunity).

It is really to bad that people are so short sighted they can't accept gays. Parents that preach against being gay are the worst type of people, just because their generation was full of a lot of ignorant, scared, un accepting people doesn't mean they need to taint future generations.

I myself am not gay, however I have a large number of gay/lesbian friends. There is nothing wrong with them. They are great people (in fact usually some of the nicest people I know because they accept everyone).

Also you should know there are lots of animals in nature that practice gay sex. This is not something that has just appeared in humanity, it is not (in most cases) a result of culture, religion, societal pressure etc etc or all that BS people try to conjure up.

ZEDGE

12-30-2010, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by J-hop

this is the most ignorant post i've read in a while. Homosexuality is not a disease. It is not an ailment that harms their body, that "patients" have to cope with their whole lives. Saying people are wired "wrong" is just stupid too. The fact that they are "wired" differently than the norm doesn't mean anything.

Saying they suffer from a disease or are wired wrong is as ignorant as the dumb asses that think Africans are inferior to whites. We all know people that think one race is superior to another are dumb as shit so why do similar ways of thinking still crop up. Especially saying someone is inferior due to their sexual orientation.

Gay males supposedly being more susceptible to contracting AIDS, is not a result of them being gay, it is the result of them being uniformed.Contracting aids was/is the result of the tissues inside the anus being easy to tear and thus direct contact between the penis and infected blood is easier than vaginal sex. Now before you say "you've proved my point", this is NOT the cause of gay people contracting aids the problem is a lot of kids are not instructed on the importance of condoms for preventing STIs which is infact MORE important than preventing pregnancies. A kid you can adopt out, or have an abortion etc. Lots of STIs you can't get rid of. So if you're a good parent you instruct both your straight and gay children to use condoms for both reasons and they will be equally safe.

plus your straight son can still pick it up easily if he has unprotected sex with a girl or decides to have unprotected anal sex with a girl (no him being straight won't give him some magical immunity).

It is really to bad that people are so short sighted they can't accept gays. Parents that preach against being gay are the worst type of people, just because their generation was full of a lot of ignorant, scared, un accepting people doesn't mean they need to taint future generations.

I myself am not gay, however I have a large number of gay/lesbian friends. There is nothing wrong with them. They are great people (in fact usually some of the nicest people I know because they accept everyone).

Also you should know there are lots of animals in nature that practice gay sex. This is not something that has just appeared in humanity, it is not (in most cases) a result of culture, religion, societal pressure etc etc or all that BS people try to conjure up.

Its Toma. Don't worry about it, the guy is a loon. He is the one who should be seeing psychiatric help not the gays.

derpderp

12-30-2010, 09:29 PM

When it boils right down to it, I don't really care if people are homosexual, as many say, if it doesn't harm you why care?

It isn't like homosexuality poses any risk to society.

Bismarck

12-30-2010, 09:32 PM

Strange, the same day as that article Alberta revoked this.

Alberta drops homosexuality as mental disorder from diagnostic guide
EDMONTON
The Canadian Press
Published Wednesday, Dec. 22, 2010 1:13AM EST
Last updated Wednesday, Dec. 22, 2010 1:18AM EST

Alberta has finally scrubbed homosexuality from its diagnostic guide to mental disorders, more than 35 years after the psychiatric profession made the same move.

Alberta Health and Wellness spokesman Andy Weiler says the move was made Tuesday after the matter was brought to the department's attention by a reporter.

Homosexuality has been listed in the province's official diagnostic guide under sexual deviations and disorders.

Mr. Weiler said Health Minister Gene Zwozdesky ordered that section of the document removed immediately.

The American Psychiatric Association stopped considering homosexuality a disorder in 1973.

Mr. Weiler could offer no explanation as to why it remained on Alberta's list.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/prairies/alberta-drops-homosexuality-as-mental-disorder-from-diagnostic-guide/article1846686/

ZEDGE

12-30-2010, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Bismarck
Strange, the same day as that article Alberta revoked this.

Alberta drops homosexuality as mental disorder from diagnostic guide
EDMONTON
The Canadian Press
Published Wednesday, Dec. 22, 2010 1:13AM EST
Last updated Wednesday, Dec. 22, 2010 1:18AM EST

Alberta has finally scrubbed homosexuality from its diagnostic guide to mental disorders, more than 35 years after the psychiatric profession made the same move.

Alberta Health and Wellness spokesman Andy Weiler says the move was made Tuesday after the matter was brought to the department's attention by a reporter.

Homosexuality has been listed in the province's official diagnostic guide under sexual deviations and disorders.

Mr. Weiler said Health Minister Gene Zwozdesky ordered that section of the document removed immediately.

The American Psychiatric Association stopped considering homosexuality a disorder in 1973.

Mr. Weiler could offer no explanation as to why it remained on Alberta's list.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/prairies/alberta-drops-homosexuality-as-mental-disorder-from-diagnostic-guide/article1846686/

Figures.. Blown out of proportion as always.

Feruk

12-30-2010, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Toma

Why not? It IS a disease. Either of the mind, or physiological, see my post above.

We spend money researching Downs Syndrome and other physiological/developmental disortders, and we also spend money researching learned/psychological behaviors and disorders.

I don't want my kid being gay and if male, having a much higher probability of contracting HIV etc.... (and before your panties get in a bunch, check the stats of the percent straight men that have HIV versus percent gay men that have HIV)/

+1 :clap:

I'm not here to hate on the gays and don't much care if they get married, but you can't possibly say homosexuality is normal. The point of humans is reproduction. Those who are weaker in a species don't reproduce and their genes are slowly removed; Darwinism. Homosexuality, like other mental disorders prevent people from reproducing. I don't want gay kids (I want grandkids), and I'm all for government money being spent to find a cure for it.

Also, interesting tid bit. Homosexuality wasn't declassed from "mental disorder" status because there was nothing wrong with the people, but rather because it didn't prevent them from living their lives like OCD or other mental disorders did.

You guys can't possibly tell me homosexuality is "normal" because it's clearly not. Every time someone does, I just think I'm having a convo with another douche more concerned with political correctness then actually looking at the issue.

cycosis

12-30-2010, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Feruk

The point of humans is reproduction.

This I get.

Originally posted by Feruk

Those who are weaker in a species don't reproduce and their genes are slowly removed; Darwinism. Homosexuality, like other mental disorders prevent people from reproducing. I don't want gay kids (I want grandkids), and I'm all for government money being spent to find a cure for it.

This I don't. Your argument doesn't make sense. You are assuming they are made up of weaker genes. Which according to you should be removed from the gene pool. But you want to waste tax dollars on "saving" them. :english:

I think you're the douche here. :dunno: Why are you concerned as to what someone does in the bedroom? Are you that selfish that you'd rather your son/daughter live a lie (should they be gay) their entire life to give you a grandkid? Im assuming you don't have kids. I'm also assuming your young so they arn't in your near future. I'd be willing to bet though that you'd rather see your kid happy and accept her/himself and live life openly rather than be a closet case, get married, come out to their partner after kids, ruin the partner's life, fuck up your grand kids' lives, and probably send your own child into further mental anguish likely resulting in depression/suicide/addiction....

But you know, fuck dem gays!!:rofl: You hateful mother fuckers crack me up.

CUG

12-30-2010, 11:37 PM

So...

kevie88

12-30-2010, 11:43 PM

HiTempguy1

12-31-2010, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by cycosis

Why are you concerned as to what someone does in the bedroom?

So, there is nothing wrong with bestiality either?

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu357/the_weirdo9/Random/Reaction%20face/trollface.png

Deviation from the norm is irregular, which could be called WRONG.

Type_S1

12-31-2010, 12:57 AM

I don't care if someone is gay or wtf he does in the bedroom...the thing I dislike is when the openly express it and annoy people with it. When I see a guy in the office wearing heels, which I have, it fucking bothers me....you are fucked up. If you talk like a girl in that annoying high pitched fucked up voice and waive your hands everywhere while walking and screaming like a girl...bothers me and won't want to talk or be near to your gay ass. Now if your gay and act normal...whatever go about your day and nobody will bother you and you won't make anyone uncomfortable or dislike you. This goes for anyone in general that is loud or obnoxious. If someone walks around yelling and being loud while in a library or while people or working...you bother people and they will not like you.

As for it being a disease...something is wrong with them. As said before any sexually reproducing species is meant to sexually reproduce with the OPPOSITE sex...if not the species dies. This is simple biology. If your homosexual you are going against what humans were biologically formed to do which is have sex and make babies.

Toma

12-31-2010, 01:06 AM

I never said it was "wrong". That is perhaps a morality issue.

That it arises as a result of either a irregular brain formation (irregular as in it occurs in slightly less than 1% of the population), or from "nurture" (like many girls these days consider being bi-sexual 'in vogue' as a way to seek attention and approval) that was my point.... and really, is beyond arguing. These are the facts.

Opinions on whether it should be researched or not cause it "does no harm", are just opinions. I feel it should be, becasue it is different from the norm, it is "maladaptive"....ie, diminishes the chance of procreation, and often has other associated deviations, most concerning are promiscuity (not unusual for a gay man to be with 100 to 300 partners), and greatly increased risk of HIV (anal sex is harder on condoms ;) )

So yeah, It may not harm anyone except the gays. But what about bi sexual men, with their high incidence of HIV, passing to to straight women? Yeah... well, no thanks

So, research the shit out of it, and treat it as it should be, and not some pansy "lifestyle choice".... cause it's not.

I got nothing against gays. I have had gay friends, gay employers, worked in nightclubs surrounded by homosexuals etc... I REALLY have nothing against it, or them, but to ignore it, and quit research, funding etc is fucking stupid.

It's not like inheriting blue eyes.

Toma

12-31-2010, 01:13 AM

As further anecdotal evidence, if googling raw statistics are not enough....

I do not know a single man that has died of Aids that is straight. Really, I do not. Working in the industry, and knwoing a lot of homosexuals, I knew SEVERAL personally that have died of Aids, or still alive and had full blown aids.

Does that prove anything? Remember, I said anecdotal, the stats speak for themselves, but my personal experience, the fact that I know 100x more straight men than homosexual men, should give you the idea of the odds.

tobypaddock

12-31-2010, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Toma
(not unusual for a gay man to be with 100 to 300 partners), and greatly increased risk of HIV (anal sex is harder on condoms ;) )

replace "gay" with "straight" and this statement is STILL 100% factual... just sayin...

Toma

12-31-2010, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by tobypaddock

replace "gay" with "straight" and this statement is STILL 100% factual... just sayin...

Uhm, no, not a chance, you are 100% wrong.

besides, how can you argue with a snazy poster like this?

http://www.oldhippie.com/photos/data/555/aids.jpg

tobypaddock

12-31-2010, 01:26 AM

how am I 100% percent wrong?

you worked in the bar industry and youre telling me you dont know plenty of straight guys who have slept with 100+ girls??

and are you trying to tell me that those guys never had anal sex (condom or not)

J-hop

12-31-2010, 01:28 AM

where are you getting your info though (ie: saying gays often have sex with 100-300 partners), most of my gay friends have been with less guys than my straight friends have been with girls.

I don't know how old you are but it really sounds to me like you grew up in the generation that was not informed about homosexuality. Or possibly a catholic??

The era of the AIDS scare is over, although it obviously hasn't disappeared with better education the spread of AIDS is become less and less a problem (now I know your going to go on a google search spree to try to find statistics to pwn me with).

If you end up with a gay child the last thing you should worry about is them getting AIDs. Maybe the torment from their peers who grew up with Parents that told them homosexuality was wrong should be more of a worry. Or how they aren't going to feel the level of acceptance a straight person might.

The truth of the matter is gay people don't want to be "cured" of their gayness. They want to be accepted for it.

You guys look at homosexuality like it is threatening our existence. Many species have an instinct to procreate when their population drops to critical levels. Humans are overpopulating the earth. There is no longer a strong drive for humans to procreate.

This argument however will never be resolved with current attitudes. And the only solution I can see is when the older, unaccepting generations die off and we can finally deal with real problems, and not worry about a small fraction of the populations sexual preference.

I think people need to spend more time around homosexuals. Eventually you don't even notice it, I used to be awkward when my gay friends talk about other guys but now I don't even notice, and don't even care. And if I had a gay son I wouldn't give a shit and I'd support him no matter what. The last thing you want to do is tell someone they are "wired wrong" or "against nature". If you are to take that attitude you might as well go back to measuring cranial dimensions of different races and telling one race they are wrong, or against the development of the human race because the aspect ratio of their head doesn't match your perfect number. seriously this thread is an embarrasment

kevie88

12-31-2010, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by J-hop
where are you getting your info though (ie: saying gays often have sex with 100-300 partners), most of my gay friends have been with less guys than my straight friends have been with girls.

I don't know how old you are but it really sounds to me like you grew up in the generation that was not informed about homosexuality. Or possibly a catholic??

The era of the AIDS scare is over, although it obviously hasn't disappeared with better education the spread of AIDS is become less and less a problem (now I know your going to go on a google search spree to try to find statistics to pwn me with).

If you end up with a gay child the last thing you should worry about is them getting AIDs. Maybe the torment from their peers who grew up with Parents that told them homosexuality was wrong should be more of a worry. Or how they aren't going to feel the level of acceptance a straight person might.

The truth of the matter is gay people don't want to be "cured" of their gayness. They want to be accepted for it.

You guys look at homosexuality like it is threatening our existence. Many species have an instinct to procreate when their population drops to critical levels. Humans are overpopulating the earth. There is no longer a strong drive for humans to procreate.

This argument however will never be resolved with current attitudes. And the only solution I can see is when the older, unaccepting generations die off and we can finally deal with real problems, and not worry about a small fraction of the populations sexual preference.

I think people need to spend more time around homosexuals. Eventually you don't even notice it, I used to be awkward when my gay friends talk about other guys but now I don't even notice, and don't even care. And if I had a gay son I wouldn't give a shit and I'd support him no matter what. The last thing you want to do is tell someone they are "wired wrong" or "against nature". If you are to take that attitude you might as well go back to measuring cranial dimensions of different races and telling one race they are wrong, or against the development of the human race because the aspect ratio of their head doesn't match your perfect number. seriously this thread is an embarrasment

It seems like you're the only one who is embarrassed by this thread, I make my statements with no malice or hate. I really don't care what people do in their homes, and I certainly don't care whom people love. If a man finds love with another man, so be it. You're the one bringing hate into your argument.

Saying that we're over populated isn't an argument here, it's a completely different topic.

I do not look at homosexuality as threatening our existence, I look on it in the way that it truly has no effect on our existence at all.. it relates in no way to evolution of the species in so much as it can not relate to the next generation in any way at all. It ends at this generation.

If my son turns out to be gay I'll love him just as much as I do now.

Type_S1

12-31-2010, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by J-hop

The truth of the matter is gay people don't want to be "cured" of their gayness. They want to be accepted for it.

I think people need to spend more time around homosexuals. Eventually you don't even notice it, I used to be awkward when my gay friends talk about other guys but now I don't even notice, and don't even care. And if I had a gay son I wouldn't give a shit and I'd support him no matter what. The last thing you want to do is tell someone they are "wired wrong" or "against nature". If you are to take that attitude you might as well go back to measuring cranial dimensions of different races and telling one race they are wrong, or against the development of the human race because the aspect ratio of their head doesn't match your perfect number. seriously this thread is an embarrasment

If they want to be accepted don't act so different then. Like I said before most people like me probably don't care if your gay...I just don't want to hear about it or see your gay things you do...like walking like a girl, wearing unacceptable clothing and talking in a way that annoys 99% of straight males. There's a start to being accepted. :D

I think measuring cranial's and judging someone for having sex with something that biologically they were not supposed to is a little different....:rofl:
But seriously your straight and you don't mind sitting around with gay guys talking about how they love to take it in the ass or how hot a guy is? I can honestly say you are a different breed then any straight guy I have met.

CUG

12-31-2010, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by J-hop

You guys look at homosexuality like it is threatening our existence.
I'd personally never let that be it's own sentence ever again. Proliferating homosexuality DOES threaten human existence. If guys and girls don't have vaginal intercourse to completion without condoms or birth control, then people don't fall out.

J-hop

12-31-2010, 01:50 AM

I don't know why you are basing your opinion of gays on a small portion of the gay community that decide to go extreme. Most of my gay friends are just average Joes. People that you can go to a bar with have a few beers and share a normal conversation with, most gays I know aren't the type to throw heels on and hit the strip for a night out.

And to be honest, no it doesn't bother me if they say they think a guy is good looking. i'm comfortable with my sexuality, I can say a girl is hot without offending them so why should it offend me if they think a guy is attractive. I don't know why this seems to scare some guys so much, get over it. I can't say I would be too comfortable if they went into detail about their encounter the night before. But on that same token I hate it when straight guys go into detail about how they banged a chick the other night, I don't think either is appropriate.

J-hop

12-31-2010, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by CUG
I'd personally never let that be it's own sentence ever again. Proliferating homosexuality DOES threaten human existence. If guys and girls don't have vaginal intercourse to completion without condoms or birth control, then people don't fall out.

you absolutely missed my point. People act like 90% of the population is gay and the human race is driving towards extinction.

No it doesn't threaten our existence, as I stated the world is over populated with humans.

Lack of food will cause the down turn of the human race long before homosexuality will even minutely impact human populations.

Toma

12-31-2010, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by tobypaddock
how am I 100% percent wrong?

you worked in the bar industry and youre telling me you dont know plenty of straight guys who have slept with 100+ girls??

and are you trying to tell me that those guys never had anal sex (condom or not)
Fact1:
Gay men according to various studies and Surveys are ON AVERAGE more promiscuous than straight men.
http://aids.ebloge.com/why-are-homosexual-men-more-promiscuous-than-straight-men/

http://americansfortruth.com/health-science/promiscuity-among-homosexuals.html

Fact 2: Homosexual men are more prone to STD's.
HALF of newly diagnosed cases of HIV in the USA in 2005 were in men engaged in same sex "behavior".

HALF! Even if you accept that 10% of the population is gay (it's more like 1-2%)... insane "odds" Don't you think?

also
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070913132930.htm

tobypaddock

12-31-2010, 02:01 AM

^^^ great googling but... you never answered my questions :dunno:

J-hop

12-31-2010, 02:02 AM

interesting, your "fact" 1, was pulled from a pretty non-legit site, and I don't know if you read the second one (first one didn't give numbers) but the second one was based on just over 2000 participants...... don't know if that says anything to you but that is a pretty poor excuse for a "scientific" study.

Fact two again is not a result of a person being gay but due to lack of education on the dangers as I stated earlier. Sexual education in schools has only become popular as of recent and the amount of education currently available is embarrassing. As I will restate, parents seem to be overly concerned about teaching their kids to use condoms to prevent pregnancy and don't talk about STI's

think about the number of cases of Gonorrhea in the straight community, they could have just as easily contracted aids from those partners.

Type_S1

12-31-2010, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by J-hop
I don't know why you are basing your opinion of gays on a small portion of the gay community that decide to go extreme. Most of my gay friends are just average Joes. People that you can go to a bar with have a few beers and share a normal conversation with, most gays I know aren't the type to throw heels on and hit the strip for a night out.

And to be honest, no it doesn't bother me if they say they think a guy is good looking. i'm comfortable with my sexuality, I can say a girl is hot without offending them so why should it offend me if they think a guy is attractive. I don't know why this seems to scare some guys so much, get over it. I can't say I would be too comfortable if they went into detail about their encounter the night before. But on that same token I hate it when straight guys go into detail about how they banged a chick the other night, I don't think either is appropriate.

Really? Because I seem to see them all the time in malls, at work, at school...and as I said it bothers me just as much as a loud or smelly person.

Now if some homo's were sitting around talking about dudes there is something wrong with that because it IS NOT NORMAL. Just the same if some guys were sitting around talking how they were going to rape a pig or how they were going to murder someone...these activities are not something the majority of society do but some people in the world think it is alright :dunno:
If I'm with my friends talking about some fine ass girl I picked up at the bar the night before what is wrong with that? Nothing because 99.9% of dudes find this okay.

What I'm trying to say is if your gay...shut the fuck up about it...be gay and don't push it on other people...make straight guys here about how you want to fuck or be fucked by a guy or act different. If they do this I guarantee you nobody would give a shit...you know why? Because NOBODY KNOWS. I could have a fucked up fetish in my own home and you know what if I didn't tell anyone nobody would think any different of me because nobody knows...now when I parade around my office telling people what do you think people are going to do? Hate on me duuuuuhhh.

Now if gays don't understand this simple concept they must have a mental disability.

Toma

12-31-2010, 02:06 AM

Edit.... CDC as of 2010 STILL lists 50% of all NEWLY diagnosed HIV cases is still in men that play with men (seems report based on 2006 numbers).

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/FastFacts-MSM-FINAL508COMP.pdf

And in 2008 2/3's of new HIV cases were among MSM (men who have sex with men).
http://www.avert.org/usa-statistics.htm

What is scary is that the one of the BIGGEST GROWING groups for HIV infection is now straight women..... who are getting it from.....??? Bi Sexual men! 85% of cases of HIV in women were from hetero sex!

Toma

12-31-2010, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by J-hop
interesting, your "fact" 1, was pulled from a pretty non-legit site, and I don't know if you read the second one (first one didn't give numbers) but the second one was based on just over 2000 participants...... don't know if that says anything to you but that is a pretty poor excuse for a "scientific" study.

Fact two again is not a result of a person being gay but due to lack of education on the dangers as I stated earlier. Sexual education in schools has only become popular as of recent and the amount of education currently available is embarrassing. As I will restate, parents seem to be overly concerned about teaching their kids to use condoms to prevent pregnancy and don't talk about STI's

think about the number of cases of Gonorrhea in the straight community, they could have just as easily contracted aids from those partners.

Google it yourself, you may find the actual study site one is talking ABOUT.

However, your argument lacks logic.

In essence you said that its not that gays have more HIV, its lack of education about protection.

If that is the case, lack of education about protection from STI's affects GAY AND STRAIGHT, yet gay men despite being 2% to 10% of the population (depends who you ask) account for 50 to 66% of new HIV cases as recently as 2008, and the CDC thinks this number is accurate for 2010.

Wait? Wut? How could THAT be?

J-hop

12-31-2010, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by Type_S1

Really? Because I seem to see them all the time in malls, at work, at school...and as I said it bothers me just as much as a loud or smelly person.

Now if some homo's were sitting around talking about dudes there is something wrong with that because it IS NOT NORMAL. Just the same if some guys were sitting around talking how they were going to rape a pig or how they were going to murder someone...these activities are not something the majority of society do but some people in the world think it is alright :dunno:
If I'm with my friends talking about some fine ass girl I picked up at the bar the night before what is wrong with that? Nothing because 99.9% of dudes find this okay.

What I'm trying to say is if your gay...shut the fuck up about it...be gay and don't push it on other people...make straight guys here about how you want to fuck or be fucked by a guy or act different. If they do this I guarantee you nobody would give a shit...you know why? Because NOBODY KNOWS. I could have a fucked up fetish in my own home and you know what if I didn't tell anyone nobody would think any different of me because nobody knows...now when I parade around my office telling people what do you think people are going to do? Hate on me duuuuuhhh.

Now if gays don't understand this simple concept they must have a mental disability.

what are you even talking about, you refute your own argument, you say you see these outward gays everywhere. I bet for every 1 outwardly gay person you see their are 10 that you don't notice are gay. You are basing your opinion on what stands out to you not reality.

How are you comparing guys talking about guys to bestiality. That is insanely naive. Me wearing pink goes against social norms. But should I be crucified for it? no, so how can you say that the right thing to do is to follow social norms.

We probably should kick all colored people out of our country to because the norm is to be white, or tell girls that wear hijabs that they are going against our social norm so they need to take them off. Or tell chinese people they have to give up all their traditions because they go against the western norm. I could go on and on.

mazdavirgin

12-31-2010, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by J-hop
The era of the AIDS scare is over, although it obviously hasn't disappeared with better education the spread of AIDS is become less and less a problem (now I know your going to go on a google search spree to try to find statistics to pwn me with).

:facepalm: Dude you are wishing away statistics and medical knowledge with political correctness. Frankly I could care less who people screw in their bedrooms but I do take objection to people inventing science to match their politically correct views of the world. Especially when their views are made up to wish away a real problem that still exists in this world.

In 2008, CDC estimated that approximately 56,300 people were newly infected with HIV in 2006[1] (the most recent year that data are available). Over half (53%) of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men.

Now lets do the math here... Do you have any idea how statistically massive the fact 53% of new infections are gay/bisexual males? Keep in mind the highest estimates of gay and bisexual males is roughly 5% of the male population. So that means for any given straight guy to get infected a gay man is roughly a sixty times more likely to contract HIV? Keep in mind that the straight infections may not have even resulted from sexual contact but could be from infected needles or infected blood plasma. Oh and leading research points to it being infected semen inside torn anal walls as being the main culprit to the higher infection rates explaining why it's not just as simple as blaming anal sex...

There is a damn good reason Canadian Blood Services does not accept blood donations from gay males and it has nothing to do with discrimination but everything to do with science. See the recent ruling where the judge pretty much said you have no right to not be offended if the safety of others is at stake. Lesbians are free to donate blood all they want so lets not whitewash science with a bunch of politically correct crap about how gay males are not more likely to contract HIV when clearly the statistics show otherwise.

J-hop

12-31-2010, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by Toma

Google it yourself, you may find the actual study site one is talking ABOUT.

However, your argument lacks logic.

In essence you said that its not that gays have more HIV, its lack of education about protection.

If that is the case, lack of education about protection from STI's affects GAY AND STRAIGHT, yet gay men despite being 2% to 10% of the population (depends who you ask) account for 50 to 66% of new HIV cases as recently as 2008, and the CDC thinks this number is accurate for 2010.

Wait? Wut? How could THAT be?

you are very stubborn (as am I). What I am saying is that being gay isn't the cause of a gay person contracting AIDs, it is lack of education. you are likely right with gays having a higher percentage of HIV cases. However because your son is gay (hypothetically) doesn't necessarily put him at a higher risk for contracting HIV, you not educating him properly or him not being selective of his partners is the cause. NOT his gayness.

tobypaddock

12-31-2010, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by mazdavirgin
Keep in mind that the straight infections may not have even resulted from sexual contact but could be from infected needles or infected blood plasma.

yeah, but the gays could never get it from needles or blood transfusions... only butt secks right?

Toma

12-31-2010, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by J-hop

you are very stubborn (as am I). What I am saying is that being gay isn't the cause of a gay person contracting AIDs, it is lack of education. you are likely right with gays having a higher percentage of HIV cases. However because your son is gay (hypothetically) doesn't necessarily put him at a higher risk for contracting HIV, you not educating him properly or him not being selective of his partners is the cause. NOT his gayness.

I know exactly what you are fantasizing about, and this fairytale existence of "oh, just TALK it over with your gay son"

But that ignores REALITY. Gay men are 50 to 100 TIMES MORE LIKELY to contract HIV than straight men given the SAME education.

Edit: if you go to the CDC site, they claim around 44 TIMES great chance of a msm man contracting HIV, but I think that is an under estimation based on too high overall percentage for number of msm men.

Toma

12-31-2010, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by tobypaddock

yeah, but the gays could never get it from needles or blood transfusions... only butt secks right?
Sure, that is however accounted for in the statistics and listed as a separate catagory.

J-hop

12-31-2010, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by Toma

I know exactly what you are fantasizing about, and this fairytale existence of "oh, just TALK it over with your gay son"

But that ignores REALITY. Gay men are 50 to 100 TIMES MORE LIKELY to contract HIV than straight men given the SAME education.

well fine we can agree to disagree, I don't disagree with your "statistics" rather I disagree on your interpretation ie: omg if i had a gay son hes going to get aids

Type_S1

12-31-2010, 02:27 AM

Originally posted by J-hop

what are you even talking about, you refute your own argument, you say you see this outward gays everywhere. I bet for every 1 outwardly gay person you see their are 10 that you don't notice are gay. You are basing your opinion on what stands out to you not reality.

How are you comparing guys talking about guys to bestiality. That is insanely naive. Me wearing pink goes against social norms. But should I be crucified for it? no, so how can you say that the right thing to do is to follow social norms.

We probably should kick all colored people out of our country to because the norm is to be white, or tell girls that wear hijabs that they are going against our social norm so they need to take them off. Or tell chinese people they have to give up all their traditions because they go against the western norm. I could go on and on.

I cannot even argue with you anymore with how stupid you are comparing things. There is a difference between talking about having intercourse with the same sex and being a certain skin color. Last time I checked most people did not care about skin color, religion or ones cultural traditions. One thing that does extend past religions and culture is sexuality and ALMOST every culture and religion in the world will agree that homosexuality is wrong. Once again you seem to say shit that is irrelevant.

What I am trying to say is very easy I'll dumb it down for you.

I talk about the weather and sports and hot woman with friends, co-workers and family =normal= everyone comfortable, happy and they probably don't mind me around

I talk about getting fucked in the ass and being outwardly gay= not normal = people are uncomfortable and not happy which will make them dislike being around me

Now compare to

I talk about killing someone(probably more killers in the world then homosexuals), walk around in a library yelling, smell like shit while I sit in the office = not normal= I irritate people and may even scare them which will lead them to not liking me or wanting to be around me.

SOOOOO...long story short from all my posts...IF YOU ARE GAY DON'T PUT STRAIGHT PEOPLE IN AWKWARD SITUATIONS OR OUTWARDLY BOTHER PEOPLE WITH YOUR SEXUALITY AND NOBODY WILL GIVE A SHIT YOU ARE GAY OTHER THEN THE HARDCORE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE'S WHO DISLIKE EVERYTHING ANYWAYS

Type_S1

12-31-2010, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by tobypaddock

yeah, but the gays could never get it from needles or blood transfusions... only butt secks right?

Your an idiot.

tobypaddock

12-31-2010, 02:29 AM

so why lump it in one category with straight men and then compare it to a different category with gay men?

link please? and you still never answered my questions earlier, but im assuming that you will just continue to ignore it seeing as how it doesnt help your argument.

tobypaddock

12-31-2010, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Type_S1

Your an idiot.

excellent point!:facepalm:

you wrote it, i re-worded it, idiot;)

EDIT: after reading you're last post to j-hop, i lol'd at you calling me an idiot,

pot meet kettle

J-hop

12-31-2010, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by Type_S1

I cannot even argue with you anymore with how stupid you are comparing things. There is a difference between talking about having intercourse with the same sex and being a certain skin color. Last time I checked most people did not care about skin color, religion or ones cultural traditions. One thing that does extend past religions and culture is sexuality and ALMOST every culture and religion in the world will agree that homosexuality is wrong. Once again you seem to say shit that is irrelevant.

What I am trying to say is very easy I'll dumb it down for you.

I talk about the weather and sports and hot woman with friends, co-workers and family =normal= everyone comfortable, happy and they probably don't mind me around

I talk about getting fucked in the ass and being outwardly gay= not normal = people are uncomfortable and not happy which will make them dislike being around me

Now compare to

I talk about killing someone(probably more killers in the world then homosexuals), walk around in a library yelling, smell like shit while I sit in the office = not normal= I irritate people and may even scare them which will lead them to not liking me or wanting to be around me.

SOOOOO...long story short from all my posts...IF YOU ARE GAY DON'T PUT STRAIGHT PEOPLE IN AWKWARD SITUATIONS OR OUTWARDLY BOTHER PEOPLE WITH YOUR SEXUALITY AND NOBODY WILL GIVE A SHIT YOU ARE GAY OTHER THEN THE HARDCORE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE'S WHO DISLIKE EVERYTHING ANYWAYS

how are you saying my comparisons are whack when you compare guys talking about other guys to people talking about killing someone:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

you again refute your own argument.

Long story short, other straight people quit being so sensitive, be comfortable with your sexuality and don't be so narrow minded.

Toma

12-31-2010, 02:35 AM

mazdavirgin

12-31-2010, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by tobypaddock
so why lump it in one category with straight men and then compare it to a different category with gay men?

link please? and you still never answered my questions earlier, but im assuming that you will just continue to ignore it seeing as how it doesnt help your argument.

It's from the CDC google it?

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm

Anyways everyone should know I abhor Toma's world view so it's not like I am towing some party line here. I am just annoyed at people white washing statistics which indicate something in opposition with their politically correct world view.

Again it's not for shits and giggles that Canadian Blood Services doesn't allow any blood into the blood bank from males who have had sex with other males even once... It's also not because they are bigots like the whole political correctness morons claim :rofl:

LadyLuck

12-31-2010, 03:22 AM

Originally posted by Type_S1
SOOOOO...long story short from all my posts...IF YOU ARE GAY DON'T PUT STRAIGHT PEOPLE IN AWKWARD SITUATIONS OR OUTWARDLY BOTHER PEOPLE WITH YOUR SEXUALITY AND NOBODY WILL GIVE A SHIT YOU ARE GAY OTHER THEN THE HARDCORE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE'S WHO DISLIKE EVERYTHING ANYWAYS

Wow, you are so dumb!

So its quite OK to talk about your sex life being a straight male/female and no one will be offended...but talking about your sex life as a gay/lesbian person it is automatically wrong? WTF!?!?!

keep your personal life to yourself no matter what your orientation, and no one will get uncomfortable. What goes on in ones bedroom is no one elses business but your own.

Back on topic, to everyone thinking that homosexuality is a choice, let me clear one thing up for you.

Being gay has absolutely nothing to do with choice. Do you seriously think that I would want to put myself out there being judged all the time by homophobes? By my parents, sisters/brothers cousins...my entire family...judged my whole life and as soon as I come out get disowned by my family and friends? Do you really think this is something that people want?

I have been gay my whole life, its something you dont know right away but its something you feel. I knew right from the start that I was different from others, and I didnt know how to cope with it until I was old enough to understand it. Sadly, that was highschool for me...and being comfortable at that time to come out to my peers was by far one of the hardest things ive ever had to do in my life. As much as they love you and "accept" you, they will see you in a different light, and it FUCKING SUCKS!

So before you go on JUDGING people and making up your own theories, please dont. You guys have no idea what a gay person goes thru on a regular basis, and not being able to tell your parents that you are so happy with that one person you really want them to meet...and them being of the same sex is a heart breaking thing.

If it was a choice, I would have picked "straight" and saved myself the hassle! no lie!

Thanks

st184

12-31-2010, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by Toma

New achievement unlocked: Agree with everything Toma says in a thread.

Great posts, keep em coming :P

Toma

12-31-2010, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by LadyLuck

Wow, you are so dumb!

So its quite OK to talk about your sex life being a straight male/female and no one will be offended...but talking about your sex life as a gay/lesbian person it is automatically wrong? WTF!?!?!

keep your personal life to yourself no matter what your orientation, and no one will get uncomfortable. What goes on in ones bedroom is no one elses business but your own.

Back on topic, to everyone thinking that homosexuality is a choice, let me clear one thing up for you.

Being gay has absolutely nothing to do with choice. Do you seriously think that I would want to put myself out there being judged all the time by homophobes? By my parents, sisters/brothers cousins...my entire family...judged my hole life and as soon as I come out get disowned by my family and friends? Do you really think this is something that people want?

I have been gay my whole life, its something you dont know right away but its something you feel. I knew right from the start that I was different from others, and I didnt know how to cope with it until I was old enough to understand it. Sadly, that was highschool for me...and being comfortable at that time to come out to my peers was by far one of the hardest things ive ever had to do in my life. As much as they love you and "accept" you, they will see you in a different light, and it FUCKING SUCKS!

So before you go on JUDGING people and making up your own theories, please dont. You guys have no idea what a gay person goes thru on a regular basis, and not being able to tell your parents that you are so happy with that one person you really want them to meet...and them being of the same sex is a heart breaking thing.

If it was a choice, I would have picked "straight" and saved myself the hassle! no lie!

Thanks

R u cute? my gf likes girls a little too ;) :nut:

Good post. :thumbsup:

Isaiah

12-31-2010, 11:00 AM

It seems the conversation has digressed to the point where everyone is missing the point. It's not an issue of straight vs. gay, right or wrong, or nature or nurture. Consider the following excerpt from the original article:

In Alberta, homosexuality still falls under the heading of Mental Disorders: Sexual Deviations and Disorders. It is at the top of the list and is followed by bestiality, pedophilia, transvestism, exhibitionism, transsexualism, disorders of psychosexual identity, frigidity and impotence.
I'm a lot more concerned about frigidity. Not concerned in the least about homosexuality. Let's allocate a bigger budget to curing frigidity.

tch7

12-31-2010, 11:02 AM

Nevermind. Not worth getting involved now.

01RedDX

12-31-2010, 11:59 AM

Skyline_Addict

12-31-2010, 12:00 PM

I like boobs.

Type_S1

12-31-2010, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by Skyline_Addict
I like boobs.

:werd:
:rofl:

ZEDGE

12-31-2010, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by 01RedDX
Oh man. Ignorance and hate under the guise of googled stats. It's always funny when hateful idiots try to sound smart.

I am straight, but I am much less concerned about my child being gay than I am about them being happy and well-rounded. If you think that the sole purpose of modern humans is to breed, give your head a shake. How about those perfectly straight people who for one reason or another, are unable to have children - are you saying they have less value as human beings since they can't procreate?

I find that those who feel threatened by homosexuality usually have a little secret themselves. There is ample evidence of your presence in this thread. Well don't hate yourself. Homosexual, bisexual and even trans-gender behavior is common in nature, it's not a "disease" and has been observed in thousands of species from worms to monkeys. If you fail to realize this, if you still think that it's shameful, deviant, immoral, and plan on passing this ignorance to your offspring, then on behalf of all humans, we beg you, please don't reproduce.

/thread

captain134

12-31-2010, 12:37 PM

tobypaddock

12-31-2010, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Toma

You asked HOW you were 100% wrong, I showed you.

Sure, there are freaks in either direction, see my Hugh Heffner/Freddy Mercury poster on page 2 I think. ;)

And why waste my time arguing with you further... you ARE an idiot.... or gay.... not that there is anything wrong with it, but ignoring facts says tons.

wrong, i asked you if you knew any guys that had slept with more than 100 girls - you never answered.
i then asked you if you knew any guys who had anal sex, protected or not, you still didnt answer - my first post in this thread is absolutely, unecuivocally 100% true, you stating that it isnt doesnt make it so. I am not saying what you said was untrue, just showing that bias can twist things in one direction or another and stupid sheep will follow (see: propoganda)

Im not an idiot, or gay and i dont ignore facts, have i stated that any of your facts are wrong? you are, in my opinion a FANTASTIC googler, but you fail to listen to anyones arguments that you disagree with, you just throw more random googled facts/statements/opinions out, you are a forum filibuster hoping that if you yell louder/longer than the other person you will be deemed as the winner of the argument - any levelheaded person realizes that that is not the case. I wont even try to convince you otherwise anymore.

I used to be a redneck homophobe - you know why? because it was easy to do, especially in a place like calgary - but i have met lots of gays and lesbians and realized they are just like us, some of them are great people, some arent.

Happy New Year

TheCheff

12-31-2010, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by LadyLuck

Wow, you are so dumb!

So its quite OK to talk about your sex life being a straight male/female and no one will be offended...but talking about your sex life as a gay/lesbian person it is automatically wrong? WTF!?!?!

keep your personal life to yourself no matter what your orientation, and no one will get uncomfortable. What goes on in ones bedroom is no one elses business but your own.

Back on topic, to everyone thinking that homosexuality is a choice, let me clear one thing up for you.

Being gay has absolutely nothing to do with choice. Do you seriously think that I would want to put myself out there being judged all the time by homophobes? By my parents, sisters/brothers cousins...my entire family...judged my whole life and as soon as I come out get disowned by my family and friends? Do you really think this is something that people want?

I have been gay my whole life, its something you dont know right away but its something you feel. I knew right from the start that I was different from others, and I didnt know how to cope with it until I was old enough to understand it. Sadly, that was highschool for me...and being comfortable at that time to come out to my peers was by far one of the hardest things ive ever had to do in my life. As much as they love you and "accept" you, they will see you in a different light, and it FUCKING SUCKS!

So before you go on JUDGING people and making up your own theories, please dont. You guys have no idea what a gay person goes thru on a regular basis, and not being able to tell your parents that you are so happy with that one person you really want them to meet...and them being of the same sex is a heart breaking thing.

If it was a choice, I would have picked "straight" and saved myself the hassle! no lie!

Thanks

I'm not trying to hop in on this argument but didn't your statement just confirm one of Toma's key points that it is indeed not a choice to be straight or gay and that maybe further research is needed to find out what exactly is the cause of someone turning out to be gay or straight?

As for Type-S1 point i agree anyone that is outwardly flamboyant whether gay or straight is fucking annoying.

abyss

12-31-2010, 02:29 PM

Toma

12-31-2010, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by captain134

I also feel bad for your children. Shame on you for wishing they turn out a certain way.

Of COURSE I wish my kids to be smart, attractive, healthy, have kids and grand kids, good careers, education etc.

No one wishes a hard life or ill will to their kids.

Acceptance is a different issue. Of course you accept and love your children for what and who they are, and help them anyway possible to reach their potential. That is my goal.

And KNOWING that if one of them ends up gay, it is not their fault, my fault, society's fault, but mostly genetics and developmental issues, it makes life easier on them and myself.

Can you imagine how hard life is on homosexuals and their families? Blaming each other, trying to change each other, without realizing its a DEVELOPMENTAL disorder, and is hard wired.

Once you know that it's NOT really a choice, no one was to blame anymore, anymore than if your kid ends up with 6 toes.... it makes acceptance, and moving on WAY easier.

If it's as simple as doing a genetic test on both parents, and if at risk, the "fix" is as simple as hormone injection at a key period of fetal development... you guys are telling me HONESTLY, you would forgo the treatment and let your kid end up gay?

I think the last part is the bottom line, the core belief in this issue. If you COULD prevent it, would you?

Keep up research and don't make it politically incorrect.

tobypaddock

12-31-2010, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Toma

Of COURSE I wish my kids to be smart, attractive, healthy, have kids and grand kids, good careers, education etc.

No one wishes a hard life or ill will to their kids.

Acceptance is a different issue. Of course you accept and love your children for what and who they are, and help them anyway possible to reach their potential. That is my goal.

And KNOWING that if one of them ends up gay, it is not their fault, my fault, society's fault, but mostly genetics and developmental issues, it makes life easier on them and myself.

Can you imagine how hard life is on homosexuals and their families? Blaming each other, trying to change each other, without realizing its a DEVELOPMENTAL disorder, and is hard wired.

Once you know that it's NOT really a choice, no one was to blame anymore, anymore than if your kid ends up with 6 toes.... it makes acceptance, and moving on WAY easier.

If it's as simple as doing a genetic test on both parents, and if at risk, the "fix" is as simple as hormone injection at a key period of fetal development... you guys are telling me HONESTLY, you would forgo the treatment and let your kid end up gay?

I think the last part is the bottom line, the core belief in this issue. If you COULD prevent it, would you?

Keep up research and don't make it politically incorrect.

this is the first post of yours i agree with almost whole-heartedly - except for the fact that i dont believe in "designer children" and dont see homosexuality as a developmental disorder that you could "fix" with some sort of injection, some people get blue eyes, some get get green, others get brown - same as some people prefer brunettes to blondes, some are more attracted to the same sex, others not so much.
My friend is crazy about redheads, i am not, not many people are statistically - that is why redheads are becoming rarer and rarer, they are procreating less - this doesnt mean that my friend has a developmental disorder just because he likes something that a large majority of the population does not.

J-hop

12-31-2010, 05:29 PM

I see what you are trying to go for Toma, but for example. I am 25, been with the same girl for over 5 years, we plan to get married buy a house and start a life together in the near future.

But I absolutely do not want kids, in fact I despise them and am creeped out by them. I won't even look after my relatives kids because I can not be around them. I've had instances where someone has insisted on passing me their "cute" baby and I have to leave the room because I find it so disturbing. Am I wired wrong because I don't have any paternal instincts? Would I want someone trying to "correct" this while I was developing. Hell no, I'm perfectly happy with the way I've turned out, I'm going to lead an excellent life without kids, and I know a lot of gay people who feel the same way about being gay.

You say that this problem needs to be fixed through research/testing so that every child can lead a normal life. I argue that people such as yourself are the problem not some "gay gene". The sooner society starts treating gays as normals and not as suffering from a disorder, the sooner these individuals can lead normal lives.

Like I said the only way this will ever be solved is to have the older generations that see being gay as a disorder die off because people such as myself will never be able to change their view.

edit: and if you use your rational, the average joe suffers from a disorder. You and I no matter how hard we try will never be a part of mensa, and never truly understand the concepts and math behind quantum mechanics. Or ever be truly brilliant (although we may have our moments)

Therefore you and I should be treated as having a disorder, the geniuses of the world should treat us as test subjects and try to find the "stoopid gene". As you will agree this sounds ridiculous, so I find it odd how people arbitrarily draw the line at sexual preference. When not being able to use even a small fraction of our brains potential seems like more of a disorder than what sex we are attracted to.

rx7_turbo2

01-01-2011, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by Toma
anal sex is harder on condoms ;)

And I have a new sig!!!!

911fever

01-02-2011, 11:43 AM

Super_Geo

01-02-2011, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Toma

Of COURSE I wish my kids to be smart, attractive, healthy, have kids and grand kids, good careers, education etc.

No one wishes a hard life or ill will to their kids.

Acceptance is a different issue. Of course you accept and love your children for what and who they are, and help them anyway possible to reach their potential. That is my goal.

And KNOWING that if one of them ends up gay, it is not their fault, my fault, society's fault, but mostly genetics and developmental issues, it makes life easier on them and myself.

Can you imagine how hard life is on homosexuals and their families? Blaming each other, trying to change each other, without realizing its a DEVELOPMENTAL disorder, and is hard wired.

Once you know that it's NOT really a choice, no one was to blame anymore, anymore than if your kid ends up with 6 toes.... it makes acceptance, and moving on WAY easier.

If it's as simple as doing a genetic test on both parents, and if at risk, the "fix" is as simple as hormone injection at a key period of fetal development... you guys are telling me HONESTLY, you would forgo the treatment and let your kid end up gay?

I think the last part is the bottom line, the core belief in this issue. If you COULD prevent it, would you?

Keep up research and don't make it politically incorrect.

I'm with Toma... would accept the kid if he turns out gay, but would much rather he were not. If I there was a pill that could be taken during pregnancy that would eliminate the chance then sign me up.

Super_Geo

01-02-2011, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by J-hop
edit: and if you use your rational, the average joe suffers from a disorder. You and I no matter how hard we try will never be a part of mensa, and never truly understand the concepts and math behind quantum mechanics. Or ever be truly brilliant (although we may have our moments)

Therefore you and I should be treated as having a disorder, the geniuses of the world should treat us as test subjects and try to find the "stoopid gene". As you will agree this sounds ridiculous, so I find it odd how people arbitrarily draw the line at sexual preference. When not being able to use even a small fraction of our brains potential seems like more of a disorder than what sex we are attracted to.

Your logic makes no sense. Less than 10% of the population is gay, so your analogy is backwards. If you were to make the comparison to intelligence then the analogy would be:

If you knew your kid was going to turn out in the bottom 10th percentile in IQ and you had a chance to do something about it, would you?

I would.

LadyLuck

01-02-2011, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Super_Geo
Less than 10% of the population is gay

And you can prove this how? Many countries forbid homosexuality meaning many of them are still closeted due to fear of being prosecuted.

Toma

01-03-2011, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by LadyLuck

And you can prove this how? Many countries forbid homosexuality meaning many of them are still closeted due to fear of being prosecuted.
Can't really be "proved...."

"1 in 10 of you is one of us." is what the homosexuals that I have known liked to say.....

I always thought the number was purposely inflated to make it more "common".

I always got a kick out of my old Boss... pulled up once in his new Porsche, I said "nice car", he yelled out so my friends could hear.... "So you gonna fuck me now?" lol

I think confidential surveys in Canada put the numbers at 2-4% and I wonder if even that is skewed by the women who currently thinks its fashionable to experiment with other women, but arent' really bisexual.

J-hop

01-03-2011, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by Super_Geo

Your logic makes no sense. Less than 10% of the population is gay, so your analogy is backwards. If you were to make the comparison to intelligence then the analogy would be:

If you knew your kid was going to turn out in the bottom 10th percentile in IQ and you had a chance to do something about it, would you?

I would.

what? no, you don't comprehend it. What I was demonstrating is that being gay is no more of a "disorder" or disease, then the average person not being able to utilize even a small fraction of our brains. The geniuses of the world show that obviously the average person is "missing" something, and is inferior (in regards to intelligence) to them.

Obviously there is some "gene" that is stopping us from all being geniuses, but it would be ridiculous to think we all have a disorder and need to be "fixed" in the womb. Just like it is ridiculous to think being gay is a disorder.

People in this thread don't seem to understand the simple fact that gays don't lead difficult lives because they are gay. They lead difficult lives because of all the narrow minded people in our society. Society is creating a problem that is not there.

It basically comes down to this (and I pose this question to all of you):

Do you think society should change its views on homosexuals, or should we start messing with people's genes??

ixlr8

01-03-2011, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by J-hop

Do you think society should change its views on homosexuals, or should we start messing with people's genes??

Homosexuality is defined by evolution to be an anomaly. Allowing homosexuals the freedom to openly participate in their genetic predisposition, instead of forcing them into heterosexual facades via societal pressures, will facilitate natural selection in making its necessary adjustments.

As far as designer children, it is already here, and it is only going to become more and more prevalent. Science fiction has become self fulfilling prophecy before, and it will likely be the case again as the proverbial two class system evolves; a genetically modified “Upper Class” and what is left of the primordial ooze as the “Slave Class”. Legislation will not stop it; the wealthy will go wherever they must in order to ensure their offspring are best equipped. That is unless of course AI catches up and has the capacity to have some say in the matter.

Evolution, the way of nature, is a fucking nasty, ruthless, nearly dictatorial force. Utopian projections of the future are delusions at worst and naiveté at best.

Rationally, I’m pulling for the asteroid; irrationally, a massive, simultaneous, sustained, worldwide, endogenous Dimethyltryptamine release, then the asteroid.

Freeskier

01-03-2011, 07:22 AM

:eek: Jesus H Christ at this thread. So many wacky posts lol.

CMW403

01-03-2011, 11:31 AM

Toma FTMFW.

nich148_9

01-03-2011, 12:33 PM

This thread is so rednecky it hurts. Couple things:

1) Homosexuality is likely a biological thing. It could also be a learned behaviour. If you're for limited government and all that, then let them be. If you prefer your government to be the intrusive kind, or you just can't understand why someone would like another person of the same sex, that's your own mental block to overcome.

2) The reason this is good (weird, hey?) is that it means that people who have been abused for their sexual orientation are able to receive affordable care. In a perfect world, we'd all get along and tolerate each others' differences. However, because of intolerant pricks, some people in society may need treatment more than others.

3) I'm not gay. I'm just pro-human-rights. If you're a human being, you should be allowed the same basic rights as another (with exceptions for criminals â€“ but you assumed that, right?).

4) There are many places in the world where there are clear divides between citizens of different classes, genders, races and sexual orientation. We're in a country where these differences are minimized, and it's worked out pretty well so far.

cde1966

01-03-2011, 01:26 PM

I'm all for human rights, not because you're gay, black or a woman but because you're human. You shouldn't need to tell me you're gay and you need equal rights. As far as I can tell being gay only means one thing, what I mean to say is, there is only one thing that makes a man gay and that is a sexual perversion towards other men, if you think that is normal behaviour then that's you right as a human. Should we treat it? Maybe not, natural selection will keep this to a limited number in the population. Nobody wants to admit to a mental disorder and not too many want treatment for something they believe is normal. After all it's the majority that decides what the norm is.

I think a mental disorder is something that affects someone's life in a negative way, does having a sexual deviance towards other men affect the life of that person in a negative way? I'm not one to answer that question. If a man stands on the street corner in rags and talks about seeing the devil and speaking to God is he crazy? What about if you take the same man, clean him up, dress him in a nice suit and place him in front of a few hundred people on a Sunday morning, all of a sudden he's not crazy, he's a preacher. Can the same be said for a gay man? If he wants to have sexual relations with another man then it's not normal behaviour, but let them get married and live together and it's all of a sudden acceptable?

There are people who believe that BPA is a contributing factor is the increase in homosexuality in society, if this is true then we should see a decrease in the next generation due to the government taking BPA out of the food chain, so in a way we are treating the condition.

Also, I thought the Alberta Government was delisting homosexuality as a mental disorder and the news story that was posted was a buck short and a day late…

tobypaddock

01-03-2011, 01:38 PM

^^^ read back further in the thread, it was posted that Alberta changed it the same day or the next day or something...

A3GTiVR6SC

01-03-2011, 07:33 PM

For once i'm going to have to agree with Toma!:clap:

lol, J-hop dug himself into a big gay hole...Stupid queer.http://picsorshens.com/forum/Smileys/default/15gay.gif

J-hop

01-03-2011, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by A3GTiVR6SC
For once i'm going to have to agree with Toma!:clap:

lol, J-hop dug himself into a big gay hole...Stupid queer.http://picsorshens.com/forum/Smileys/default/15gay.gif

lol no I am not gay, and no I did not dig myself a deep hole. there just appears to be a huge lack of understanding in this thread, people are making Gays out to be these sexual deviants birthed from the gates of hell. It honestly sounds like a bunch of catholic preachers in this thread looking for any reason to make Gays out to be abominations of the human race.

I agree Toma makes some great points(this is a discussion thread not a one side dominates thread though), but I see a bunch of people blindly following him like sheep.

But honestly this is what I expect from beyond, if you sift through threads, beyond has to be one of those most conservative car clubs I know of, threads are marred by racial slurs, backwards thinking and non acceptance, and the fact that there is such a small group of people that will defend homosexuals verifies this.

Rage2 and the rest of the beyond exec might as well make a public statement saying Homosexuals are not welcome here because this is the message threads like this send....