USA and "Private" Medicare versus Alberta... [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

Modelexis

01-02-2011, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Toma
Fuck me sideways. Next time some idiot anywhere near me even whispers "Alberta should go Private", I'm REALLY gonna punch them in the mouth lol

I don't understand why albertans of all people cannot see past the raw numbers.

If you're 16 in alberta and you want a car you have to pay for car insurance, it's expensive, the raw numbers would scare someone with public insurance.

But looking at the raw numbers is ignorant.

Every gripe you have about private vs public healthcare can be compared or paralleled to private vs public vehicle insurance.

You need to think things through a bit further before you jump to conclusions.

But I don't care much to debate the issue on pro vs con of each side of the debate, to me the debate comes down to morals and the choice to pay or not to pay.
Private and public both have pro's and con's for each.
But only one of them is forced, as corrupt as private insurance may be in some areas, it will never be corrupt to the point where a tax collector throws you in jail for not wanting health insurance.

Toma

01-02-2011, 02:40 PM

I realize the wait times is what everyone is upset about, but you need to understand is that they are DESIGNED by the "powers that be" to force private on us, or convince us...or... whatever.

And if US healthcare really was better.....

WHY do Canadians LIVE LONGER and why are they HEALTHIER than Americans?

Canadian helath care is MUCH better.

I had a friend that went to the US, many of you know him (if you know me), he felt "faint". Nothing more. Went to a hospital there, they ran a bunch of tests, and could not find anything wrong.

Total bill for less than a day of US care??

$24,000

I'm sorry. But I can emplyoy my own team of doctors for a WEEK for that ludicrous amount.

WE CANNOT ALLOW essential services to become profit based.

epp01

01-02-2011, 02:40 PM

The biggest reason I wouldn't ever move to the states is because of private health care. I got an ear infection last month and was choked to have to pay 19 bucks for my pills with my works health insurance. Than I thought, how much would these pills really cost if I was in the states? Over 200 a bottle?

I remember watching Sick-o when they went to Cuba and a lady needed an inhaler. The clinic told her it was going to be 2-3 dollars an inhaler, and she just started crying. She said the SAME inhaler in the states was over 100 bucks for ONE. The lady in the clinic thought she was crying at the price so she said that their was a clinic down the road that would give them away for free if this was too expensive. How can they justify 2000% markup on something like that?

Yes you wait longer for public, but you also get way more coverage then you even know about. If you need something looked at right away, well we're not very far from the US boarder. Go take a 5-6 hour drive and go pay 200,000 dollars for them to inspect you and run a couple of tests.

Private FTL.

Toma

01-02-2011, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by epp01
The biggest reason I wouldn't ever move to the states is because of private health care. I got an ear infection last month and was choked to have to pay 19 bucks for my pills with my works health insurance. Than I thought, how much would these pills really cost if I was in the states? Over 200 a bottle?

I remember watching Sick-o when they went to Cuba and a lady needed an inhaler. The clinic told her it was going to be 2-3 dollars an inhaler, and she just started crying. She said the SAME inhaler in the states was over 100 bucks for ONE. The lady in the clinic thought she was crying at the price so she said that their was a clinic down the road that would give them away for free if this was too expensive. How can they justify 2000% markup on something like that?

Yes you wait longer for public, but you also get way more coverage then you even know about. If you need something looked at right away, well we're not very far from the US boarder. Go take a 5-6 hour drive and go pay 200,000 dollars for them to inspect you and run a couple of tests.

Private FTL.
I just noticed even CUBA has a higher life expectancy than the US. Maybe "Sicko" wasn't far off after all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

In all fairness, Sicko was mainly about US citizens who were refused medical insurance, or could not afford it. But it is a powerful reminder that a POOR, BACKWARDS ass Poverty stricken shithole like Cuba still has a healthier population that lives longer than under the "great" American system that costs on average, WITHOUT employer benefits, $500 a month per person.

Modelexis

01-02-2011, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Toma
WE CANNOT ALLOW essential services to become profit based.

Is dental health essential?
If you answered yes, then you must believe that dental care would function much better if only it was forced rather than private.

Dental work is expensive, maybe we should force everyone to pay for dental insurance and that would solve the worlds problems.

pls don't punch me in the mouth, I'm not able to force the rest of Canada to pay for my dental bill to get my teeth fixed.

Toma

01-02-2011, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis

If you answered yes, then you must believe that dental care would function much better if only it was forced rather than private.

Dental work is expensive, maybe we should force everyone to pay for dental insurance and that would solve the worlds problems.
What does that have to do wtih anything?? Is dental health essential? Some can be essential I suppose, a LOT its cosmetic no?

Before the corruption of the Klein government, emergency Dental WAS covered, and available at the Foothills. I had a root canal done there in the 80's.

And dental is a GREAT example of why PRIVATE sucks ass and ALWAYS ends up costing more. Nothing but run away costs.

For the cost of minor work here, I can go back to Yugoslavia for a nice 2 week Vacation, have a better dentist do all the work, visit family, have a ball, and STILL save money.

Or, Cuba for that matter, or Venezuala, or China, or France, or.....

Last time I was there, no word of a lie, a filling and 2 cleanings cost me $120.

CUG

01-02-2011, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Toma
but I had NO IDEA it was upwards of $2000 a MONTH for a family for insruance!!!

Next time some idiot anywhere near me even whispers "Alberta should go Private", I'm REALLY gonna punch them in the mouth lol That 2k/month doesn't even guarantee a payout, and that doesn't include the deductible you pay to keep your premiums down. Depending on your deductible, your insurance may not even cover doctors visits and some radiology stuff. There's an insurance board in Alberta that is licking their fucking lips hoping people buy it.

Absolutely hit anyone that says we should go private, them and anyone who might have heard them. It's NOT the fucking answer to shitty healthcare providers.

Toma

01-02-2011, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by CUG
That 2k/month doesn't even guarantee a payout, and that doesn't include the deductible you pay to keep your premiums down.

Absolutely hit anyone that says we should go private, them and anyone who might have heard them. It's NOT the fucking answer to shitty healthcare providers.

Well you lived there, so you should know.... I got a job offer in Florida, so that is why I started taking more interest.

Jesus. That is fucking nuts.

Modelexis

01-02-2011, 03:01 PM

The gym is my health insurance, if we had no health insurance I wouldn't need health insurance I would only need to pay for the times when I needed emergency work, same as dental. The gym is like my "dental cleanings" and the emergency bills would be the same in both dental and medical cases.
Although I have a job that gives me health and dental insurance anyway

But when it's 'free' and you can see a doctor every time you have a sore throat while someone else foots the bill, why not right?

Tik-Tok

01-02-2011, 03:03 PM

I researched this a few years ago. The amount of income tax savings would more than make up for the amount spent on private health care down there, for similar coverage that we enjoy. $2000/month sounds pretty extreme, probably a family of 6 or something. The people in my career I've spoken to down there were paying about $600/month for a family of 4 for insurance that's equilvalant to our basic health care, and also what I get through Blue Cross (I should also add, the company paid these benefits, they just knew the numbers because it was a taxable benefit, and they had to pay the tax on it themselves)

I'm not saying I advocate that up here, because even if it privatized, our taxes wouldn't be any lower. I also like the fact that if I lost my job, my basic health care wouldn't change.

For myself, and my career, I could have 3 times the disposable income by moving to most areas of the U.S. where I could easily find a job. (Cali. not included)

edit:

Originally posted by Modelexis
The gym is my health insurance, if we had no health insurance I wouldn't need health insurance I would only need to pay for the times when I needed emergency work, same as dental.

Lol, that could be a new logo for the Gym's...
"The new cure for cancer, working out!"

Modelexis

01-02-2011, 03:18 PM

I don't think the gym would do much to save you from cancer..

ZenOps

01-02-2011, 03:19 PM

I'm not a huge fan of private "pay for healthcare" either. I hear Danielle Smith is.

I could write a paper on this as well, at least a solid reason why private doesn't really work.

Communicable diseases do not know economic status - they affect everyone. Without the medicare safety net, one percent of the population always falls through which becomes 10x harder to fight when it inevitably infects 10x more people. I see social commie type medicare as the one area where you can actually use and ounce of prevention to the poorest - to a greater overall benefit.

Flu shots should always be free IMO.

As for plastic surgery, liposuction, and setting bones... Well there is a case for "pay for a titanium rod instead of a steel rod in your body" But I'm pretty set in my thoughts for communicable diesease.

DayGlow

01-02-2011, 04:51 PM

Why do people always go to the American model when private healthcare is mentioned? How about the Swiss system? Japan? France? Or many other places with blended systems that vastly outperform our current system?

Toma

01-02-2011, 05:36 PM

CUG

01-02-2011, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by DayGlow
Why do people always go to the American model when private healthcare is mentioned? How about the Swiss system? Japan? France? Or many other places with blended systems that vastly outperform our current system? Because it's the closest model that would accommodate insurance companies in Alberta. It wouldn't be long before we saw HMO's and things of the like.

The bitch of it all is that even paying 1-2k per month, you're still paying out for a night in the hospital or an emergency doctor's visit.

No offense to any Yanks on here at all, but I'm always amazed at how awesome Americans think their country is. I don't hate them as much as some people on here do, but I definitely don't believe they're even remotely as rad as they think they are.

A country where you have to divorce your wife when your insurance company refuses to pay for a stroke surgery at the age of 65, so that your family home can't be called in by the creditors, is a mediocre place to live.

The whole thing is autonomous though; high insurance premiums, cheeseburgers, pizzas, video games and ice cream ->insurance co refusals = profit. With 400 million people to draw on, it would almost be foolish not to be in the insurance business in the US.

Toma

01-02-2011, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
I researched this a few years ago. The amount of income tax savings would more than make up for the amount spent on private health care down there, for similar coverage that we enjoy. $2000/month sounds pretty extreme, probably a family of 6 or something. The people in my career I've spoken to down there were paying about $600/month for a family of 4 for insurance that's equilvalant to our basic health care, and also what I get through Blue Cross (I should also add, the company paid these benefits, they just knew the numbers because it was a taxable benefit, and they had to pay the tax on it themselves)

I'm not saying I advocate that up here, because even if it privatized, our taxes wouldn't be any lower. I also like the fact that if I lost my job, my basic health care wouldn't change.

For myself, and my career, I could have 3 times the disposable income by moving to most areas of the U.S. where I could easily find a job. (Cali. not included)

edit:

Lol, that could be a new logo for the Gym's...
"The new cure for cancer, working out!"
I've specifically been asking, and unless the employer kicks in towards it, it is roughly $400 to $500 a person.

And Taxes in Alberta are rudely cheap. We have an absurdly low provincial rate.

And don't fool yourself, you think taxes would go down if we privatized health?

Please.

Toma

01-02-2011, 05:52 PM

OMG! In order to better afford a family plan, some guys are telling me they are taking out policy's with $5000 to $10,000 deductibles!!!

Jesus. Then they say a self funded family plan ends up about $1200 a month.

CUG

01-02-2011, 06:02 PM

Toma

01-02-2011, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by CUG
Yeah, so take the job in FL, just don't give up your Canuck citizenship. :rofl:

Yeah, I guess. Cost of living is a bit cheaper cause their housing got hammered, but they seem to pay less for an average job....

That country is FAST becoming a two tiered society. The Rich, and the Poor. I cant believe the discrepancies in pay and services.

CUG

01-02-2011, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Toma

Yeah, I guess. Cost of living is a bit cheaper cause their housing got hammered, but they seem to pay less for an average job....

That country is FAST becoming a two tiered society. The Rich, and the Poor. I cant believe the discrepancies in pay and services. Yeah, I was going to post earlier that you need to make ridiculous money if you live in the US. I mean like a million+ a year. It buys everything including happiness in the US. We're only talking about health care, nevermind the IRS that sends letters out claiming you owe them 40k, and that you have to prove you don't. It boils my blood, actually.

Zephyr

01-02-2011, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by Toma
OMG! In order to better afford a family plan, some guys are telling me they are taking out policy's with $5000 to $10,000 deductibles!!!

Jesus. Then they say a self funded family plan ends up about $1200 a month.

I have a friend that is about $1500 a month for his family, that's even after a company pays for more than half of it.

I only have health insurance for myself, so far I only dish out $50 a month, but thats after my company paying more than half.

But what gets me is that how much medicine is over here. I have asthma due to damage from second hand smoke, been that way since I was a kid, no matter how much I work out, still cant get rid of it. My inhaler costs $30 bucks with insurance, but I can go overseas and get 5 of them for $40 bucks.... and it's the same brand, same company by Glaxo Smith Kline.

max_boost

01-02-2011, 06:57 PM

America confuses me.

B20EF

01-02-2011, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Zephyr
But what gets me is that how much medicine is over here. I have asthma due to damage from second hand smoke, been that way since I was a kid, no matter how much I work out, still cant get rid of it. My inhaler costs $30 bucks with insurance, but I can go overseas and get 5 of them for $40 bucks.... and it's the same brand, same company by Glaxo Smith Kline.

I was under the impression US invents most of the modern medicine so they charge to fund further research. I have heard US medical execs complaining on tv that Canada just takes the patent, produces our own and sells it cheap. We dont fund the research that went into developing the drugs, we just pay for the actual ingredients. No doubt they over charge to make a profit, but the profit drives them to make new and better drugs/treatments.

rage2

01-02-2011, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by CUG
With 400 million people to draw on, it would almost be foolish not to be in the insurance business in the US.
Just look at the Fortune 500 most profitable list, you'll see a huge # of health care and health insurance companies. The profits are ridiculous haha.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2010/performers/companies/profits/

Definately a good idea to get into the health care game.

Tik-Tok

01-02-2011, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by Toma

And don't fool yourself, you think taxes would go down if we privatized health?

Please.

Reread please.

Originally posted by Tik-Tok

I'm not saying I advocate that up here, because even if it privatized, our taxes wouldn't be any lower. I also like the fact that if I lost my job, my basic health care wouldn't change.

Edit: I'd also like to add, I've just went through quite a few of those online quotes for health insurance, and so far the highest amount to cover both my wife and I is $566/month (for both of us), and that's with a $500 deductible, and prescription coverage that's better than what we get with Blue Cross Alberta. (the only worse part I saw in the plan, comparatively speaking, is that each doctors visit is $30, and maternity visits aren't covered, except for complications)

Seriously, I'm not advocating private health care in Canada (that's similar to the US), I'm just telling you to give your head a shake and do some more research instead of listening to a bunch of guys on a forum that are probably either heavy drinking/smokers, and thus have high premiums, or just seriously pulling your chain.

CUG

01-02-2011, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by rage2

Just look at the Fortune 500 most profitable list, you'll see a huge # of health care and health insurance companies. The profits are ridiculous haha.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2010/performers/companies/profits/

Definately a good idea to get into the health care game. What a nice treat. Your payout float is exempt from taxation (I think), and when you don't f-cking pay out anyways, you can't lose at all. hahahah oh baby.

Zephyr

01-02-2011, 11:25 PM

http://i.imgur.com/SpfmS.jpg

LOL

codetrap

01-02-2011, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by epp01
The biggest reason I wouldn't ever move to the states is because of private health care. I got an ear infection last month and was choked to have to pay 19 bucks for my pills with my works health insurance. Than I thought, how much would these pills really cost if I was in the states? Over 200 a bottle?

I remember watching Sick-o when they went to Cuba and a lady needed an inhaler. The clinic told her it was going to be 2-3 dollars an inhaler, and she just started crying. She said the SAME inhaler in the states was over 100 bucks for ONE. The lady in the clinic thought she was crying at the price so she said that their was a clinic down the road that would give them away for free if this was too expensive. How can they justify 2000% markup on something like that?

Yes you wait longer for public, but you also get way more coverage then you even know about. If you need something looked at right away, well we're not very far from the US boarder. Go take a 5-6 hour drive and go pay 200,000 dollars for them to inspect you and run a couple of tests.

Private FTL.

Interesting. When I was in cuba last winter, my wife got an eye irritation. It certainly was a LOT more than 2-3 dollars. She needed 2 doses of eye drops to take care of it. I think I spent just over $200US for that. We're talking like Neosporin eye drops here. They're what, $9CAN or so?

I would be highly suspicious of anything Moore related if that's what he was saying cuba was like.

01RedDX

01-03-2011, 12:30 AM

Toma

01-03-2011, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by Tik-Tok

Seriously, I'm not advocating private health care in Canada (that's similar to the US), I'm just telling you to give your head a shake and do some more research instead of listening to a bunch of guys on a forum that are probably either heavy drinking/smokers, and thus have high premiums, or just seriously pulling your chain.

Yellowbullet is not your typical forum, amongst the responders in the thread are of course the typical assholes, but mixed in there are very reputable 'people', like the owner of Accufab, and the owner of Probe Industries etc... they have confirmed the rates, and I never started the thread.

mo_money2supe

01-03-2011, 01:37 AM

Don't really have much to contribute, but just imagine, if car tuning was publically funded, how much more affordable it would be to get Toma to tune all of our cars! :eek: :D Ah, how good it is to have others pay for services that only a select few can take advantage of. Who knows, if the idea was possible, we'd all be driving faster, more fuel efficient cars!

Modelexis

01-03-2011, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by mo_money2supe
Don't really have much to contribute, but just imagine, if car tuning was publically funded, how much more affordable it would be to get Toma to tune all of our cars! :eek: :D Ah, how good it is to have others pay for services that only a select few can take advantage of. Who knows, if the idea was possible, we'd all be driving faster, more fuel efficient cars!

If the state had control of vehicle tuning there would be one dyno in each province and there would be a 5 month wait to use it, similar to the MRI situation we currently enjoy thanks to the state and their oh so efficient nature.

Kritafo

01-03-2011, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by Modelexis
I don't think the gym would do much to save you from cancer..

Exactly just because you work out and eat healthy doesn't mean you won't get cancer.

I have seen both sides of American vs Canadian health care. If you can afford private everything you have access to everything right now and yesterday. If you don't you will sit and wait.

Even in Canada Province to Province it's very different. 2 sister had cancer both passed away at home by choice. sister in ON had the sun and the moon handed to them with 24 hour nursing care if needed for free. Sister here in Calgary they got nothing, everything was out of pocked. They even had to buy the special air filled bed to bring her home in.

Modelexis

01-03-2011, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Kritafo

Exactly just because you work out and eat healthy doesn't mean you won't get cancer.

I have seen both sides of American vs Canadian health care. If you can afford private everything you have access to everything right now and yesterday. If you don't you will sit and wait.

Even in Canada Province to Province it's very different. 2 sister had cancer both passed away at home by choice. sister in ON had the sun and the moon handed to them with 24 hour nursing care if needed for free. Sister here in Calgary they got nothing, everything was out of pocked. They even had to buy the special air filled bed to bring her home in.

The gym could very well be a cancer preventive mechanism for many people as it discourages the habit of smoking and increases the lungs ability to replenish itself.

So in the case of lung cancer yes the gym is a great way to prevent semi avoidable cancers such as lung and mouth etc due to tobacco.

Lung cancer accounts for over a quarter (27%) of all cancer deaths each year.
On average, 465 Canadians will be diagnosed with lung cancer every week.
One in 11 men is expected to develop lung cancer during his lifetime and one in 13 will die of it.
About half of all cancers can be prevented through healthy living. (see: going to the gym)

abyss

01-03-2011, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by ZenOps
I'm not a huge fan of private "pay for healthcare" either. I hear Danielle Smith is.

I could write a paper on this as well, at least a solid reason why private doesn't really work.

Communicable diseases do not know economic status - they affect everyone. Without the medicare safety net, one percent of the population always falls through which becomes 10x harder to fight when it inevitably infects 10x more people. I see social commie type medicare as the one area where you can actually use and ounce of prevention to the poorest - to a greater overall benefit.

Flu shots should always be free IMO.

As for plastic surgery, liposuction, and setting bones... Well there is a case for "pay for a titanium rod instead of a steel rod in your body" But I'm pretty set in my thoughts for communicable diesease.

Danielle Smith most definitely does NOT support private pay for health care.

codetrap

01-03-2011, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by 01RedDX

Interesting indeed. Considering the fact that the average wage in Cuba is $20 per month, I'd say you got hosed.

Health care is free, if you're cuban.

SilverGS

01-03-2011, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Toma

That country is FAST becoming a two tiered society. The Rich, and the Poor. I cant believe the discrepancies in pay and services.

US and Canada to a lesser extent has always been a 2-3 tiered society. There have always been a small elite % who control a huge chunk of the wealth, a large "middle class", then everyone else.

1% of the families in the US control around 35% of the wealth. The top 10% control 70%. The bottom 40% control less than 1%.

It is just getting worse and worse.

I would like to see a combination public/private sector health care system in place similar to what they have in France. Not saying it would be easy to implement or that it would fix all of our problems but it seems to work well in many places.

desi112

01-03-2011, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by SilverGS

US and Canada to a lesser extent has always been a 2-3 tiered society. There have always been a small elite % who control a huge chunk of the wealth, a large "middle class", then everyone else.

1% of the families in the US control around 35% of the wealth. The top 10% control 70%. The bottom 40% control less than 1%.

It is just getting worse and worse.

I would like to see a combination public/private sector health care system in place similar to what they have in France. Not saying it would be easy to implement or that it would fix all of our problems but it seems to work well in many places.

thats 106% wealth.

01RedDX

01-03-2011, 02:42 PM

Mibz

01-03-2011, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by desi112
thats 106% wealth. Everything's bigger in America

rage2

01-03-2011, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by desi112
thats 106% wealth.
No it's not.

The 35% figure is included in the 70% figure, since the 1% that controls 35% is part of the top 10%.

Mibz

01-03-2011, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by rage2

No it's not.

The 35% figure is included in the 70% figure, since the 1% that controls 35% is part of the top 10%. GTFO Chinaman, there's no place for math in irrational discussion.

max_boost

01-03-2011, 03:05 PM

Is the income tax savings enough to offset health care and education?

Tik-Tok

01-03-2011, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by max_boost
Is the income tax savings enough to offset health care and education?

In my research, for my career and pay, would MORE than cover it. As I said in A previous post, I would have almost triple the disposable income. That's calculating cost of living, pay difference, housing costs, health care, taxes, etc. The only thing I didn't include was education (which is moot until we actually have kids that are old enough to go to school)

SilverGS

01-03-2011, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by rage2

No it's not.

The 35% figure is included in the 70% figure, since the 1% that controls 35% is part of the top 10%.

This. Thanks Rage

Here is the source:
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth.htm

Doesn't look like much but they claim their source is sponsored by the federal reserve board.

A graph even shows the trend of the rich get richer and the poor get poorer over the last 20 years.

VWEvo

01-03-2011, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by max_boost
Is the income tax savings enough to offset health care and education?
It would more than likely cover it. Unfortunately the misguided reps of public health will help you think otherwise even though they can't prove it.

Toma

01-03-2011, 06:32 PM

With private, I dont think you can defiantly say your taxes would go down, but YOU KNOW your direct costs will go up.

Then what about people without an income, low income, single moms, the disabled etc.... How are they supposed to come up with $2000 a month for health care?

Toma

01-03-2011, 06:35 PM

And, look at the costs.... with public, they have HUGE incentive too keep costs down. Alberta spends about 11 billion a year, or roughly $250 per person/month.

I know the AHS is corrupt. With some shake up, and a bit more accountability and transparency, I bet we could get that down to $8 billion a year again

Modelexis

01-03-2011, 06:49 PM

@Toma, if you're going to compare the Canadian government with private corporations you need to look at the whole picture.

For instance, can you tell me what the Canadian federal debt is at the moment?

Do you know how much of our taxes are going towards interest on that debt?

Obviously a private healthcare company would look like they're doing a great job if they could run up a half trillion dollar debt on behalf of their customers to reduce rates and have no responsibility to pay back.

'Making budget' means absolutely nothing if you're further in debt than you were the previous year.

I fully respect your opinion that you want to give away your earnings to pay to support single mothers and disabled people.
You don't seem to respect my opinion that I would like the option of not supporting these people.

I don't have to worry that my dentist has a massive debt to pay for expenses that his company has incurred. I don't have to worry that one day my children will have to pay the debt that was created by my dentist's company.
But since you won't grant me the ability to disagree with you I can see that a debate will never take place in any sort of rational sense.

Toma

01-03-2011, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis

I fully respect your opinion that you want to give away your earnings to pay to support single mothers and disabled people.
You don't seem to respect my opinion that I would like the option of not supporting these people.

I can't respect selfishness, and the "corporatist" mentality.

I'm a socialist at heart, and have no problem doing my part to help those that can't help themselves.

For instance, if money is tight, I NEVER blame the taxes, I blame myself for not doing enough.

My "real" job is working with people with developmental disabilities. Who would look after these poeple if everyone had your mindset? Just shoot them and be done?

Sure the government is corrupt, but our debt is lightyears behind the US's Private Fed based scam, we do not have secret trillion dollar Pentagon shortfalls.

The US is running on fumes, their whole economy is unsustainable and based on a lie and the delusion that markets can be exponentially expanded forever.

ANY attempt to mimic them in any way is stupid.

After all the world is a closed system. YOU CANNOT win at a negative sum game. It's not possible. For a sustainable economy, you HAVE to produce more than you consume, and we in North America have forgotten how to do that.

codetrap

01-03-2011, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by 01RedDX

That's what Moore was trying to say, that a poor country like Cuba has free healthcare.

Not what eye drops cost at some fancy Varadero resort for foreigners.

Ah, that makes more sense then. It was in Holguin, and I'd never go back there. It was too sad for me. Although I had some great conversations about 1980's era technology with our travel guy there. He was a very intelligent, very highly trained engineer. Too bad he made more in a week as a tour guide with tips than he could in a year in his trained profession. But hey, he had free health care. Or all the little kids running around asking for pencils for school. But they had free health care. What was the other thing? Oh yeah, the security guard that was absolutely fascinated by my iphone. The sadness in his eyes when I showed him what it was (was using it as a flashlight) and what it did, that was sadness for me because I didn't have free health care. Nothing to do with him wistfully commenting that he'd never have anything like that.

Modelexis

01-03-2011, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by Toma

I can't respect selfishness, and the "corporatist" mentality.

I'm a socialist at heart, and have no problem doing my part to help those that can't help themselves.

Who would look after these poeple if everyone had your mindset? Just shoot them and be done?

Who would look after these poeple if everyone had your mindset?

I don't want everyone to be forced to conform to my mindset.
This world has good people like you and for that reason I am positive that people in need will still have generous kind hearted people to help them.
Are you saying you would stop helping people if healthcare became private? are you going to stop doing what you enjoy?

You are the evidence that generosity exists in this world.
You do what you do out of the goodness of your heart and to aid those in need, no one forces you to do what you do.

But to refuse someone the right to have a view that is different from yours and doesn't impede your ability to carry out what you wish, this is immoral.
If you believe it is moral to force your views on others, you might try putting that into some sort of formulation that is universal and see how it holds up to testing.

There is nothing moral in refusing people the right to hold an opinion that disagrees with their own.
If you had the power would you force me to hold your opinion? would you have me shot for disagreeing if you had the power?

I don't want anyone to be forced to share my view, I just want the freedom to be able to hold a view other than yours.

If you enjoy helping people and you would love nothing more than to devote your time and money to that cause, I think that's fantastic, and I would encourage that. But what if I don't want to live the same life as you and what If I don't have the same passion for helping others?

If no one has a gun in their face taking taxes to pay a single mother of 3 to get a sitter while she gambles, you seem to be worried that the world will run out of nice people and charitable people and people who want to help.

What if I want to help by providing jobs by starting a small company, but I cannot hire many people because of the tax rate? You are simultaneously forcing me to 'care' and forcing me to not care at the same time.
What about the guy that is so 'greedy' he wants to built a billion dollar corporation that employs hundreds of people and puts earned food on the table every night for those people? Is he really so greedy?

01RedDX

01-03-2011, 11:19 PM

derpderp

01-04-2011, 07:19 AM

I don't think many people in Alberta or Canada are advocates for a total private system of healthcare, just a public-private model, which I think is a good idea. I always find it humorous how Canadians are so convinced if a private system existed in parallel to a public one some sort of conspiracy would start and the public system would collapse. Or how they do the Canadian thing and just go “WELL IN AMERICA”.

Canada is actually one of the very few developed nations that have a healthcare system that is totally public and single-payer. I don’t need to come up with theories or scenarios to prove a private–public system works efficiently, because the system already exists around the world.

The World Health Organization’s ranking of world health systems ranks practically the whole worlds health systems, all the highest ranked nations have some form of private-public model. Where Canada ranks is embarrassing to this nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO's_ranking_of_health_care_systems

Also I don't know what is up with the Micheal Moore wanking over Cuba, sure healthcare is cheap and Cuban doctors make so little money they can hardly provide for themselves and many are corrupt. Also Cuba health tourism is laughable; people are so amazed by a system that essentially is a copy of the American system of for profit health care.