"Capitalism: A Love Story"....

[Toma]

What can I say, I love Michael Moore and missed this one....

This one was very interesting.

For one, I had NO IDEA that corporations take out life insurance on some of their employees in secret, and can cash in big if they die!!!

Holy fuck :eek:

Anyway, love him or hate him, I think everyone should at least watch his stuff and form their own opinion.

[Toma]

Or the Peoria "Kids for cash" scandal where judges threw kids in "jail" for minor infractions for kick backs from a FOR PROFIT Corporate detention centre. :eek: :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

[Modelexis]

These are US stories, and since the US has one of the largest and most powerful Governments in the world, what do you see as the problem and or solution to these problems.

In the end, taking out insurance on your employees behalf is hardly worth mentioning. It doesn't affect the employee in any way, they can still take out their own insurance.

If the employees find out and don't like this they can just quit their job.

[Seth1968]

Capitalism worked well for Michael Moore.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by Toma
What can I say, I love Michael Moore


Wow, you're such an independant thinker!!!

[Masked Bandit]

Michael Moore is the biggest liar on the planet. Do some research on his film editing methods and the guy can make Gandhi look like a terrorist. Taking anything he says in his films as truth instantly drops your IQ 50 points.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Toma
For one, I had NO IDEA that corporations take out life insurance on some of their employees in secret, and can cash in big if they die!!!
That's part of any respectable company's business continuity plans, and business interruption insurance.

Our top level execs such as our CEO is insured to the point where if anything happens to him, the insurance will cover all capital gains taxes (since he's a large shareholder) so his estate wouldn't be forced to sell shares, which would dilute stock prices, give voting control to random ppl, etc.

Our key management, is insured so that the company can retain contractors to do the job (much more expensive) until a suitable replacement is hired.

This way, our yearly earnings and expenses are predictable, the company is stable, which is what investors and shareholders want to see. All part of business, nothing to see here! :D

[Freeskier]

Wow, thats actually interesting lol. I've never thought about that sort of thing in depth, so when I read Toma's post I thought "Well, I'm not surprised, but thats sorta shitty"...
But now that actually seems like a sensible thing to do. I'm assuming it doesnt prevent the employees from having life insurance policies for themselves and their families?

[ZenOps]

Corporate Decimation?

People are finally figuring out how things work, and believing it. Brits have been decimating since forever. Tiny nation of people, rich GDP per capita.

Forced conscription was one of the easiest ways to decimate. Nowadays it seems to be replaced with forced insurance. The US will start feeding on its own CEOs soon... Oh wait...

So goes the old saying in Capitalism "I don't have to be fast enough to outrun the lion, I just have to be fast enough to outrun you."

In Japan, they seppuku. In the US they let others do it for them.

Rob Anders! And man never landed on the moon.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Freeskier
I'm assuming it doesnt prevent the employees from having life insurance policies for themselves and their families?
It doesn't, you can buy as much insurance as you want, from as many providers as you want. Some companies give life insurance as part of their benefits package, since it's cheap to roll it in with life insurance on the business side.

Like I said, it's all part of doing business. I wouldn't be surprised if public companies are REQUIRED to insure important people.

[dezmarez]

Originally posted by rage2

That's part of any respectable company's business continuity plans, and business interruption insurance.

Our top level execs such as our CEO is insured to the point where if anything happens to him, the insurance will cover all capital gains taxes (since he's a large shareholder) so his estate wouldn't be forced to sell shares, which would dilute stock prices, give voting control to random ppl, etc.

Our key management, is insured so that the company can retain contractors to do the job (much more expensive) until a suitable replacement is hired.

This way, our yearly earnings and expenses are predictable, the company is stable, which is what investors and shareholders want to see. All part of business, nothing to see here! :D


But in the movie, wasn't it just an every day worker that was covered? It makes sense for the CEO, and key personal to be covered, but the greeter at the local Walmart? How does that "prtoect" the company?

[Toma]

Originally posted by rage2

That's part of any respectable company's business continuity plans, and business interruption insurance.

Our top level execs such as our CEO is insured to the point where if anything happens to him, the insurance will cover all capital gains taxes (since he's a large shareholder) so his estate wouldn't be forced to sell shares, which would dilute stock prices, give voting control to random ppl, etc.

Our key management, is insured so that the company can retain contractors to do the job (much more expensive) until a suitable replacement is hired.

This way, our yearly earnings and expenses are predictable, the company is stable, which is what investors and shareholders want to see. All part of business, nothing to see here! :D

Yeah, but walmart taking out insurance on a greeter or cake decorator??

Fantastic show!

It's a lot to do with the 2008 crash, and the criminals that pulled off the "bank rescue" etc...

Well worth the watch.

[Toma]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Michael Moore is the biggest liar on the planet. Do some research on his film editing methods and the guy can make Gandhi look like a terrorist. Taking anything he says in his films as truth instantly drops your IQ 50 points.

Watching his films, or any other documentary, you have to possess the basic talent of identifying the FACTS, and then separating them from the "dressing".

It's not hard.

And once you can do that, you know he is not a liar.

[rage2]

Yea that is kinda wierd. I haven't seen the movie, so I didn't know they were insuring greeters.

edit - looked up the Walmart deal, I guess it's an elaborate tax scheme.


Wal-Mart took out about 350,000 life insurance policies on the lives of its employees payable to the company, according to the lawsuit filed by Sims and other family members of deceased Wal-Mart employees. Hartford Life Insurance Co. and AIG Life Insurance Co. sold the policies to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart borrowed money from the insurers to pay the premiums, which the company was able to write off as a business expense on its federal taxes.

And that's why I'm not an accountant. That's a pretty smart (but unethical) way to skimp on taxes.

[Toma]

I dunno, i think it should be illegal to profit from someones death.

I mean, I can see financial loss for certain employees.... but you'll face that if they quit as well....

But that's just one part of this interesting film.... one that I actually had no clue about lol, so I thank Mr. Moore for pointing it out.

I wonder if the corrupt judges that sent kids to that for profit detention centre are still alive?

If I was a parent, and it happened to my kid(s).... lol....

[sneek]

Originally posted by Toma
I dunno, i think it should be illegal to profit from someones death.

I mean, I can see financial loss for certain employees.... but you'll face that if they quit as well....

But that's just one part of this interesting film.... one that I actually had no clue about lol, so I thank Mr. Moore for pointing it out.

I wonder if the corrupt judges that sent kids to that for profit detention centre are still alive?

If I was a parent, and it happened to my kid(s).... lol....

I haven't seen the movie either, but I think that is called peasants insurance.

It truly blurs the line between insurance and gambling. Classically, the largest difference between gambling and insurance was the "insurable interest". For example, you shouldn't be able to take out a fire policy on your neighbour's house. IMO Walmart isn't hurt that badly if the lose a greeter....

[googe]

I agree that it makes the most sense when protecting a critical asset of the company. For anyone else, creating any financial incentive whatsoever to not preserve human life is reprehensible.

I thought the film was amusing, but some of it did make you roll your eyes. Moore can be kind of annoying. The Obama worship made me want to vomit too.

[WhippWhapp]

I don't always agree with MM' s views, but anyone that encourages debate is always welcome.

An interesting counterpoint to Fahrenheit 9/11.

http://www.workingpsychology.com/download_folder/Propaganda_And_Fahrenheit.pdf

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by Toma


Watching his films, or any other documentary, you have to possess the basic talent of identifying the FACTS, and then separating them from the "dressing".

It's not hard.

And once you can do that, you know he is not a liar.

Michael Moore's fantasies are about as close to being documentaries as I am to being Michael Jackson.

Google some stuff on his credibility. I've done some reading on his methods and this guy is a bigger illusionist than David Blaine.

Toma, you're a pretty smart cookie. Not everone on this board agrees with some of your ideas but I know you're no idiot. Don't be taken in by this scammer. He's worse than Banerjee.

Pick up a book called "Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man" and it exposes his methods. I read it shortly after it came out and from that point forward the sight of the man makes me sick.


Now as far as this "buying insurance" on staff goes, it's commonly called "Key Man" insurance. It's very common and prudent business practice in many situations. Rage2 explained it quite well.

Hey Rage2, you wanna job?

[ZenOps]

"Life insurance" is technically supposed to be called "Death insurance" if you want to adhere to correct english grammar.

If any lawyer really feels up to the task, they could probably argue that it is false and deceptive wording - which it is.

When you get forced car insurance, its supposed to be insuring against damage to the car. Just like one is supposed to be insuring against injury and death.

But noone would buy it if they called it death insurance. Nowadays they tend to call it death and dismemberment "benefits".

[Toma]

Originally posted by sneek


I haven't seen the movie either, but I think that is called peasants insurance.

It truly blurs the line between insurance and gambling. Classically, the largest difference between gambling and insurance was the "insurable interest". For example, you shouldn't be able to take out a fire policy on your neighbour's house. IMO Walmart isn't hurt that badly if the lose a greeter....

yUP...thats what they called it.

Just watched "the Corporation". another excellent show.

[Godfuader]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Michael Moore is the biggest liar on the planet. Do some research on his film editing methods and the guy can make Gandhi look like a terrorist. Taking anything he says in his films as truth instantly drops your IQ 50 points.
Michael Moore's credibility is no greater than that of Fox News. They both can be grouped under 'Entertainment'.

[Str1der]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Now as far as this "buying insurance" on staff goes, it's commonly called "Key Man" insurance. It's very common and prudent business practice in many situations. Rage2 explained it quite well.

Yes, in many situations. Obviously this isn't one of those situations, so it's not quite the same thing now is it?

[911fever]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
Michael Moore is the biggest liar on the planet. Do some research on his film editing methods and the guy can make Gandhi look like a terrorist. Taking anything he says in his films as truth instantly drops your IQ 50 points.

very true. Michael Moore is a clown.


Originally posted by Godfuader

Michael Moore's credibility is no greater than that of Fox News. They both can be grouped under 'Entertainment'.

Really? MSNBC has no bias? CNN has no bias? Every paper/media production/news has some type of bias. Especially MSNBC (The Young Turks, Olbermann, etc). Why the hate on a network which at least gives the population the opportunity to view right wing commentators (and some left wing) which is a view rarely heard in today's liberal - saturated media?

[Toma]

Originally posted by Str1der


Yes, in many situations. Obviously this isn't one of those situations, so it's not quite the same thing now is it?
Exactly.

How some people here can justify a 4.8 MILLION payout for an employees making maybe 60k a year. ....

Or getting huge payouts and not helping out the actual broke families....

The arguments on Moore are ridiculous, and still turn a blind eye to the FACTS.

Sure, he sensationalizes and dramatizes, but no one here yet has demonstrated a FACTUAL error in his work.

Moore's work is good and SOLID. I am aware of a couple errors in previous films, however, they were accurate with the information available at the time

This is different from the blatant LIES I have seen on Faux News.

I've taken more than the average share of social psychology classes, read up on influence, propaganda and persuasion. I know EXACTLY what he does, and it's good stuff. But to look at that, and then equate it to him getting his facts wrong....

well.... not very smart.

[Cos]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit

Pick up a book called "Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man" and it exposes his methods. I read it shortly after it came out and from that point forward the sight of the man makes me sick.


Can I borrow said book?

[Toma]

What was AMAZING was that Congresswomen saying that if you get evicted, and I am paraphrasing cause I don't remember, but something like; "Don't You Leave". "The Bank doesn't ahve your mortgage, they cant find the paperwork, stay as squaters in your own homes!"

What she is talking about is the root of corruption in US banks. They lend you money that does not exist. They create it out of thin air, and just move paperwork around. Then they package up these loads and sell them off to investors as investment vehicles, funds, derrivatives etc...

No risk trillions in profit, no real money investment (US banks are allowed to lend over 10x thatn money they hold).

Then the system crashes, and they want tax payer money to bhail them out.

Anyway, the Americans I discuss this shit with on other forums, said Moore was crazy, full of shit, it's not true (even though anyone with a peas sized brain knows it is"....

And just the other day, the Supreme Court of Massachusetts agreed with the Congresswoman and Moore when denying two foreclosures.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-07/us-bancorp-wells-fargo-lose-pivotal-massachusetts-foreclosure-case.html

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by Cos


Can I borrow said book?

Sure. I gave it my cousin I while back and I can't remember if it made it's way back to my place or not but I'll have a look tonight.

Sure. I gave it my cousin I while back and I can't remember if it made it's way back to my place or not but I'll have a look tonight.

Toma I'll give you a small glimpse into MM's methods. In Bowling For Columbine there was a segment with Charleton Heston. The movie shows a "clip" of a speech he was giving at some convention. If I'm not mistaken it was an NRA convention that was held in or near Littleton, CO just after the Columbine shooting. Now this was a major convention that the NRA had planned for well over a year in advance and obviously there was no way you could change something like that a week before the event, but Moore was going on & on about how heartless the NRA were to rush in and hold a pro-gun event just after the Columbine shootings.

With specific reference to Heston though, in the movie there is a clip of him giving his speech and they show about three or four sentences. When you listen to it (in the movie) it sounds like Heston is giving the victim's families the big F.U. when it comes to gun laws. But if you read the transcription of the speech, Moore takes one sentence from the opening paragraph, another five minutes later, and then another five minutes after that. Now if that isn't deceptive editing then I don't know what is. Sure it's technically true that Heston spoke those words but not the way it was presented.

Honestly Toma, I used to be a huge MM fan & advocate. Do yourself the favour of reading that book. You'll be embarrassed to have ever stood in his corner.