Home Audio control systems

[89coupe]

I'm pretty much decided on a Nuvo Concerto system for my place, has anyone else used or heard of them?

http://www.nuvotechnologies.com/concerto.htm

[ercchry]

i dunno, a system that just limits itself to audio seems.. wasteful when there are so many system that will automate everything and anything in your home, and can be controlled via apple products along with their own touch panels

EDIT: just checked out the price list for this stuff... i feel like there would be other systems that would be a much better choice.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by ercchry
i dunno, a system that just limits itself to audio seems.. wasteful when there are so many system that will automate everything and anything in your home, and can be controlled via apple products along with their own touch panels

Yeh thats what its for, to control all audio sources in my home. This system has an App for Apple products.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by ercchry

EDIT: just checked out the price list for this stuff... i feel like there would be other systems that would be a much better choice.

Like what? My budget is $15k for the system including wiring.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by 89coupe


Like what? My budget is $15k for the system including wiring.

see for that amount i think you might be able to do a little more than just audio control. lights, blinds, hvac, etc

my background is on the commercial side so im not an expert with the residential side of things. but i would recommend checking out crestron (for the high end of the price range) and control4

[89coupe]

Originally posted by ercchry


see for that amount i think you might be able to do a little more than just audio control. lights, blinds, hvac, etc

my background is on the commercial side so im not an expert with the residential side of things. but i would recommend checking out crestron (for the high end of the price range) and control4

I'm looking at over $20k for a basic Control 4 system.

My budget is only $15k.

[ercchry]

if you have sources that are apple products... toss some of these around the house

http://www.iportmusic.com/

then get a good solid multi channel amp, from someone like peavy, or crown audio, etc.

then some good in ceiling speakers from someone like community or jbl

then here is where my non-home audio background kicks in :rofl:

crestron cp2e for control should be enough and mate that with just a simple crestron button panel (for backup in case your apple products are dead or not at hand) mate that with your wireless router and crestron's apple app (their free one might even be enough)

then here is why i feel like this might be better in case in the future you want to expand...

go here... and get a switcher for whatever type of source you need (actually krammer might be a good choice too, bit cheaper)

http://www.extron.com/product/prodtype02.aspx?s=3

this should do for just your audio (a dsp would be bad ass, but over kill i would think haha)

http://www.extron.com/product/product.aspx?id=sw12a&search=audio%20switcher

but yeah, i dont really feel like checking the price lists for everything, but that system would be well under $15k i would think. plus it would be so easy to expand it :thumbsup:

for me i would hate to drop that much money on something you can not expand.

[89coupe]

You still need to wire for all of this, thats the most expensive part.

Right now I'm doing 6 zones in my home & two home theater systmes. The wiring alone is a tad over $5k

With the Nuvo system I can control any audio/video source in my home from my Ipad, zones, volume, & music.

Your idea seems valid, but without knowing how much it is, its kind of useless to me...lol.

[ercchry]

so is someone else running the wires for you?

$5k for just wire seems... insane haha

so approximate msrp for everything is:

iports run about $600 for ones with control

8 channel amp is $2k-$3k

cp2e is about $1800

8 button keypad is about $250

speakers (these might be overkill) $500/pair

6 input audio switch is about $830 (12 input is $1300)

6 output DA is $420

for the home theatres, there should be control ports on the receivers, the cp2e can control those via rs-232

if you run balanced audio from all sources to the switch you should be fine without conditioning it. that is just two runs of 22/2 for each source. then for control all you really need for rs-232 is 3 connections, and 22/2 will work for that just fine.

i think a box of a 1000ft of belden shielded 22/2 is about $600?

then 18/2 for the speakers... and thats it?

EDIT: i take it you do not have drywall up yet right? wiring your house would be a snap, for $5k that would be about 40hrs worth of labour! no way in hell running wire for 6 speaker zones and a handful of sources would take 40 hours!

[89coupe]

Originally posted by ercchry
so is someone else running the wires for you?


I'm forced to use the builders electrical company. Each zone is $205, plus $30 for each speaker ring. So basically $235/speaker for wiring. I have 8 zones.

Each 7:2 system is $750 for wiring

I have 10 rooms that will be wired for TV/ so you need two CAT5 & two cable runs for each room.

You need HDMI or CAT5 with baluns to each source.

Then you need control panels for each zone, it starts to add up.

My budget does not inlude speakers, just wiring and a control system.

Speakers & Audio equipment is a whole nother budget...lol

[Mibz]

You need to negotiate that. I dropped the price of my Cat6 and audio wiring by more than half by bitching at them about their ridiculous costs. Their original quote was more expensive than finishing the house and having somebody else come and wire it.

EDIT:

I paid $300 for a 5.1 zone, $100 for a simple in-ceiling zone (1 or 2 speakers) and $75 per 4xCat6 run.

Also, if you're doing a full distribution system you don't need 2xRG6 to each room. Stick your cable/sat boxes in the basement and just run HDMI over Cat5e/6 along with IR receivers. If you're seriously worried about resale then go ahead and do one, but I still think two is unnecessary.

[ercchry]

ohhh okay, so this is a full a/v control deal not just audio?

so many ways to go about it... but yeah check out crestron. the nice thing about them is how expandable everything it and that you can control anything with them, no proprietary bs like control4.

with combining the right cheap-o pieces with the right high end stuff i think you could have a very nice automation system for around the $10k mark, and with the right pre-wiring and equipment choices you could end up with a super kickass system really easy in the future if you choose to add to it

EDIT: and for the cable runs for the shaw boxes (or telus) get them to do it. shaw gives you 4 runs for free, then its like $60 or something for an extra run?

[benyl]

Originally posted by 89coupe


I have 10 rooms that will be wired for TV/ so you need two CAT5 & two cable runs for each room.



I would just run 3 or 4 cat5/6 and forget the cable.

You can run HDMI over 2 cat5e.

[kenny]

Originally posted by benyl


I would just run 3 or 4 cat5/6 and forget the cable.

You can run HDMI over 2 cat5e.

or over a single cat6 to save even more wiring. If I was building a new house, 4 cat6 to every room and 2 cat6 to garage/kitchen/pantry/laundry room.

Wiring coax is a waste.

[tictactoe2004]

What company are you dealing with currently? The pricing seems fairly inexpensive.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by benyl


I would just run 3 or 4 cat5/6 and forget the cable.

You can run HDMI over 2 cat5e.

Yeh I'm getting them to switch out the HDMI runs with CAT5 and baluns.

But the control system itself is quite pricey. For the Concerto system you are looking at $8K, this includes the Music Port.

[benyl]

Originally posted by kenny


or over a single cat6 to save even more wiring. If I was building a new house, 4 cat6 to every room and 2 cat6 to garage/kitchen/pantry/laundry room.

Wiring coax is a waste.

That is my plan. For me, that is a fuck load of cable though.

You need cat6 in the Laundry room? internet connected washer and dryer? (Yes, I know LG just came out with that shit).

[Mibz]

Laundry room was the only one I didn't get Cat6 to and I immediately regretted it. There is seriously no reason not to wire EVERYWHERE with at least 2x Cat6.

[E36M3]

I've had some of the expensive systems, and used the majority of them. My personal experience has been that people never really get much value out of them, despite the massive costs involved.

The best bang for the buck, with amazing usability and features is Sonos. For a couple grand, you can get an amazing system for as many zones as you would need. http://www.sonos.com -- and its simple enough to install and configure yourself.

[89coupe]

My builder runs two Coax & one CAT5 to every room in the house, its included in the price of the home.

So without Coax, how do you hook up a shaw box & TV in a room?

[ercchry]

Originally posted by 89coupe


Yeh I'm getting them to switch out the HDMI runs with CAT5 and baluns.

But the control system itself is quite pricey. For the Concerto system you are looking at $8K, this includes the Music Port.

$8k just to do audio is retarded...

this beast from crestron lists for $7k... yes you need twice the room and home theatres but they have a huge range of products and im sure you could find something for the same price range from them that encompasses a much wider range of control.

http://www.crestron.com/resources/product_resources/catalogs_and_brochures/online_catalog/default.asp?jump=1&model=AMS-AIP#

[ercchry]

Originally posted by 89coupe

So without Coax, how do you hook up a shaw box & TV in a room?

rack in the basement with a box for each display, extenders via cat5 to the displays. cleans up a room very nicely... but costs more

[kenny]

Originally posted by 89coupe
My builder runs two Coax & one CAT5 to every room in the house, its included in the price of the home.

So without Coax, how do you hook up a shaw box & TV in a room?

All video/audio sources in the basement with hdmi matrix over cat5/6 distribution. Every room can view any source. IR can be extended over these same cat5/6 lines as well.

Thats why I recommend wiring cat5/6 to every room, extremely easy to add a TV + control box and be able to access any of your sources and the added expense is minimal if done before house is finished.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by ercchry


rack in the basement with a box for each display, extenders via cat5 to the displays. cleans up a room very nicely... but costs more

What controls it? How do you send the signal?

[ercchry]

Originally posted by 89coupe


What controls it? How do you send the signal?

...crestron... hahaha

yeah seriously, check out their site they have diagrams for anything you possibly want to do.

EDIT:

too many diagrams to look through, but this should give you an idea of how it works

http://www.crestron.com/downloads/application_diagrams/225/digitalmedia_commercial_conference_room.pdf

here is the master list

http://www.crestron.com/resources/system_design_resources/application_diagrams/

[89coupe]

Originally posted by kenny


All video/audio sources in the basement with hdmi matrix over cat5/6 distribution. Every room can view any source. IR can be extended over these same cat5/6 lines as well.

Thats why I recommend wiring cat5/6 to every room, extremely easy to add a TV + control box and be able to access any of your sources and the added expense is minimal if done before house is finished.

So give me an example, if I have two TV's on my main floor and 3 sound zones for that floor, how would I control the source/power/volume for each TV & sound zones?

Do the new SHAW boxes accept CAT5/6?
How is the signal transmitted?

[ercchry]

What are your audio sources? There is so many ways to do everything but basically, you have a control processor (cp2e for example) that controls everything, you "talk" to it with your touch panel/ipod or whatever. Then you have switchers for your sources, you pick what you want where with them. Then you "extend" the signal over cat5 to the displays

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by 89coupe


So give me an example, if I have two TV's on my main floor and 3 sound zones for that floor, how would I control the source/power/volume for each TV & sound zones?

Do the new SHAW boxes accept CAT5/6?
How is the signal transmitted?

I can tell you what we normally do in cases like this.

All of the video sources that don't require any physical media would be placed in a rack in a dedicated control room in the basement, sometimes smaller systems will just have a rack in the mechanical room.

All of the sources would run HDMI into a HDMI matrix switch, I usually use the Atlona 8x8:2 ($7500 switch) or a 16x16:2 ($30,000 switch). If the sources don't have HDMI output you would buy a component to HDMI adapter.

The output side of the switch features either HDMI direct for short runs or 2xCat6 output that would be connected to a balun where the TV goes. If you are running HDMI baluns I HIGHLY recommend using Cat6a as we have had numerous issues even with Cat6 if you are doing runs of over 100 feet. Cat5e will not cut it with todays baluns unless you use one of the new HDbaseT baluns which allow you to run up to 330 feet with 1080p, 3d, uncompressed audio, and two way IR over a single Cat5e but the baluns cost about a grand per set.

The Matrix switch is controlled by a control system like Control4 or Savant (i'm not a fan of crestron personally) usually via RS232 connections. Each TV would be controlled by a processor in the control room downstairs by either via IP, RS232 or IR control. A single Cat5e is all that would be needed for that but i'd still recommend Cat6. This cable would run from each TV to a the processer downstairs... You can tell the remote control what room you are in, and when you select that room it will control everything, the TV, the shaw box, the distributed audio, lights, shades, you name it, we can pretty much control almost anything.

I'll see if I can find a basic design drawing and upload it to show you.

Any chance you can do me a favour and tell me what company is offering those prices?

[tictactoe2004]

Here's an example, it's a little dated, I'll see if I can find a better example on Monday. This one is still using component video, but there's still baluns and the theory is the same. Don't mind the stretched TVs on the right, I blanked out our company info, client info and my info :)

edit: and don't mind the spelling mistake :)

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/wtfimnameless/sample%20drawing/DistVideo.jpg

[digi355]

You might get lucky like I did...

When I built my place, I paid for a zone, then waited until they'd finished pulling the cable in the house. Right before it went to drywall, I went in and put a bunch of condiut and speaker wire in.

It was a gamble, but paid off because the drywallers didn't care, or even know that the wire was there, all I had to do was take a ton of pictures so when I moved in, I could easily get back to the cable they'd drywalled over.

When I did my walkthrough, the construction sup saw the different cable in the mech room and asked if I'd done it? Since they had the money, I didn't care and said, "yeah." He laughed and commented on how much people are willing to pay for speaker wire.

At the end of the day, as long as the sub-contractor doesn't make an issue of it, the home builder is very unlikey to find out / give a shit. They tell you not to because of they have contracts with the electircal companies, but once they are out of the house the drywall's on, they aren't going to ever look.

I'd say pay for the minimum, and go back after they sub is out of the house.

[benyl]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004
Here's an example, it's a little dated, I'll see if I can find a better example on Monday. This one is still using component video, but there's still baluns and the theory is the same. Don't mind the stretched TVs on the right, I blanked out our company info, client info and my info :)

edit: and don't mind the spelling mistake :)

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/wtfimnameless/sample%20drawing/DistVideo.jpg

How much?

[Mibz]

I guess while we're here, what's the cheapest 4x4 HDMI (bonus if it converts to RJ45) matrix out there? I think Gefen has one for $4,000 plus $2,000 for the HDMI -> RJ45 conversion box.

It'd be really nice if I could do something less expensive.

[kenny]

Originally posted by Mibz
I guess while we're here, what's the cheapest 4x4 HDMI (bonus if it converts to RJ45) matrix out there? I think Gefen has one for $4,000 plus $2,000 for the HDMI -> RJ45 conversion box.

It'd be really nice if I could do something less expensive.

Weird, they discontinued the one I have. I got the 8x4 HDMI matrix over cat6 and it was $4k Now its two separate products for $6k. Wonder why they separated it.

Still available on ebay though:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gefen-8x4-HDMI-matrix-over-CAT5-EXT-HDMI-CAT5-844-/220467459776?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3354e276c0

[Mibz]

Hmmmm. Spend $4k and used 2x Cat5 or spend $6k and use 1x Cat6.

EDIT: WTF you came back from the club and decided to make a sensible response on Beyond?

[benyl]

If the HDMI and the "remote" signal run down 1 cat6, why do you need more that 2 cat6 cables at a location? 1 for HDMI and one for internet.

If you have more than 1 appliance that needs internet, throw a cheap 1mbit switch in the mix (they are like $20 now).

[HuMz]

Originally posted by digi355
You might get lucky like I did...

When I built my place, I paid for a zone, then waited until they'd finished pulling the cable in the house. Right before it went to drywall, I went in and put a bunch of condiut and speaker wire in.

It was a gamble, but paid off because the drywallers didn't care, or even know that the wire was there, all I had to do was take a ton of pictures so when I moved in, I could easily get back to the cable they'd drywalled over.

When I did my walkthrough, the construction sup saw the different cable in the mech room and asked if I'd done it? Since they had the money, I didn't care and said, "yeah." He laughed and commented on how much people are willing to pay for speaker wire.

At the end of the day, as long as the sub-contractor doesn't make an issue of it, the home builder is very unlikey to find out / give a shit. They tell you not to because of they have contracts with the electircal companies, but once they are out of the house the drywall's on, they aren't going to ever look.

I'd say pay for the minimum, and go back after they sub is out of the house.

I basically did the same thing last week at a friends house last week. Right before drywall went up I ran a bunch of wire and even left coils out for the Centre, L, R, and Sub.
Luckily the dry wallers were smart enough to not cover the wire and pull it through.

89 Coupe who are you building with? I would really try and negotiate with them to be able to at least pull some wire. Even if its just for all the speakers.

Having just built with Heartland they have no issues with me going in and running some extra cat 6, HDMI, and speaker wire. I am a Journeyman electrician but the impression I got was as long as its low voltage you can do whatever you want as long as your not interfering with any of the electrical companies wiring.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by benyl
If the HDMI and the "remote" signal run down 1 cat6, why do you need more that 2 cat6 cables at a location? 1 for HDMI and one for internet.

If you have more than 1 appliance that needs internet, throw a cheap 1mbit switch in the mix (they are like $20 now).

Pretty much everything that i've seen on the market right now that runs over a single cat 6 is missing something, either compresses the signal quite a bit, only does 2.0 stereo and not surround, some of them have a small video delay so you can't use them for gaming.

Here is one I use a fair bit, this is for sure one of the best switches availble today. The price includes all 8 HDMI baluns. Trust me when I say make sure you run Cat6a for these, not Cat6, not Cat5e.

http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-8x8-2-PRO-HDMI-Matrix-Switch-with-CAT5-6-and-Local-HDMI-Outputs-with-3D-Support.html

[Mibz]

Originally posted by benyl
If the HDMI and the "remote" signal run down 1 cat6, why do you need more that 2 cat6 cables at a location? 1 for HDMI and one for internet.

If you have more than 1 appliance that needs internet, throw a cheap 1mbit switch in the mix (they are like $20 now). Because you can run pretty much anything over Cat6, home automation, security, phone, etc. and the added cost is less than a cheap Gb switch. I'm sure it comes down to personal preference but I'd much rather have those ports on the wall than on a switch.


Trust me when I say make sure you run Cat6a for these, not Cat6, not Cat5e. Cat6 is HDMI 1.4 compliant up to 55m. If you're going to have longer runs than that, sure, but it's really not necessary. If I were wiring my own house I'd definitely do it, but at the markup a builder would probably charge I don't know.

EDIT: My bad, 37m in bundles. And I suppose I should say that I don't have any first-hand experience so maybe you know something I don't.

[benyl]

Mibz, who was your builder and supplier?

[Mibz]

Originally posted by benyl
Mibz, who was your builder and supplier? Shane and Visions.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by Mibz
Because you can run pretty much anything over Cat6, home automation, security, phone, etc. and the added cost is less than a cheap Gb switch. I'm sure it comes down to personal preference but I'd much rather have those ports on the wall than on a switch.

Most quality HDMI baluns require 2x ethernet cables, you can't plug a switch into a single Cat6 on the wall, it has to be 2x Cat6 directly down to the HDMI matrix.


Originally posted by Mibz
Cat6 is HDMI 1.4 compliant up to 55m. If you're going to have longer runs than that, sure, but it's really not necessary. If I were wiring my own house I'd definitely do it, but at the markup a builder would probably charge I don't know.

I've seen first hand 2x Cat6 that was unable to handle 1080p at 90 feet. We thought there may have been a crimp in the cable so we retested it in the office with a brand new spool of quality Cat6 and it didn't work, but worked fine with Cat6a. Even Monoprice suggests their Cat6a at 50 feet distances when using HDMI baluns.

Personally when I spec a pre-wire into a home I run the same bundle of cables to every location a client wants either a phone, cable jack, ethernet jack, IP cam, touch panel or keypad:

3 x Cat6
2 x RG6
1 x 18/4

If the client is doing video distribution I run the above bundle with the addition of 2 x Cat6a to every video location.

Make sure you also have enough cables running from your equipment to the attic for radio antennas, sat, or a wap.

[benyl]

Originally posted by Mibz
Shane and Visions.

Sweet. Nice to know they will negotiate. Might have to get more info from you via PM.

Did you find Visions knowledgeable? I am skeptical. haha

I don't know how much automation I want to do. Not sure I am interested in controlling blinds, etc...

I did email the Visions rep and she told me that they are getting Control4 now. Did you get anything besides the cat6 cable?

[benyl]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004

Personally when I spec a pre-wire into a home I run the same bundle of cables to every location a client wants either a phone, cable jack, ethernet jack, IP cam, touch panel or keypad:

3 x Cat6
2 x RG6
1 x 18/4

If the client is doing video distribution I run the above bundle with the addition of 2 x Cat6a to every video location.

Make sure you also have enough cables running from your equipment to the attic for radio antennas, sat, or a wap.

So you run 3 cat6 and 2 cat6a to each room?

Wow... I am going to spend a lot on wiring.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by benyl
Did you find Visions knowledgeable? I am skeptical. haha


Not when it comes to automation or multi room audio/video.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by benyl


So you run 3 cat6 and 2 cat6a to each room?

Wow... I am going to spend a lot on wiring.

Some rooms will have 4 or 5 of those runs.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004

Any chance you can do me a favour and tell me what company is offering those prices?

Prices for what?

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by 89coupe
Prices for what?

This pre-wire:


Originally posted by 89coupe
I'm forced to use the builders electrical company. Each zone is $205, plus $30 for each speaker ring. So basically $235/speaker for wiring. I have 8 zones.

Each 7:2 system is $750 for wiring

[benyl]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


Some rooms will have 4 or 5 of those runs.

Baller.

I am looking at about 20 runs including the walkthrough pantry, mud room, laundry and garage. 24 if I go nuts.

I hate future proofing... haha.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004
Not when it comes to automation or multi room audio/video. Indeed. Their quotes were all over the place for video distribution because they'd never used an HDMI matrix before (and, as it turns out, didn't even carry one).

We went through three project managers and in the end we cut ties with them before all the work was done (Hence why I'm on here asking about it). They did the wiring but then didn't a label a fucking thing, didn't run it where I told them to run it (three times) and then gave me a whooping 6 inches slack on all my speaker cables.

The 2nd PM we had was a great guy who did his best to clear up his workers' fuck ups but the fact that he never went to actually check the work after the initial hardships really pissed me off.

If you're using them, clearly document everything you want, stay on top of shit, make sure they fix problems right away, and (if you're not rolling it into your mortgage) don't pay them shit until it's done.

I've still got a fucking Niles doorbell interface sitting in my basement not hooked up.


I've seen first hand 2x Cat6 that was unable to handle 1080p at 90 feet. :/ I honestly don't see how this is possible. I've seen a single Cat6 do just under 8Gb real world so I don't see how two could possibly fail, short of a bad part somewhere in the chain.

Ah well, I guess we'll see how it goes.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


This pre-wire:



I'm building with Albi homes, so most of the pre-wire is included in the price of my home.

What specific price were you curious about that seem cheap?

[89coupe]

It looks like I will be replacing my HDMI runs with CAT6stp with baluns.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by 89coupe


I'm building with Albi homes, so most of the pre-wire is included in the price of my home.

What specific price were you curious about that seem cheap?

$205 to supply and install a speaker wire for a zone seems really inexpensive. You're either getting a really good deal or they use really cheap wire.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


$205 to supply and install a speaker wire for a zone seems really inexpensive. You're either getting a really good deal or they use really cheap wire.

All my wiring is THX certified shielded monster cable. 16G for the main & upstairs & 12G for my main theater room.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by 89coupe
All my wiring is THX certified shielded monster cable. 16G for the main & upstairs & 12G for my main theater room.

I'm curious to know what company they sub-contract that out to. Those are pretty good prices conisdering the cable they are using.

edit: good call on upgrade the cable for your HDMI baluns, Some people call it Cat6a some people call it Cat6stp, either way it was the right thing to do. Cost on that cable is around $0.40 per foot if you want to keep them honest :)

[89coupe]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


I'm curious to know what company they sub-contract that out to. Those are pretty good prices conisdering the cable they are using.

Who do you work for? You must know how cheap wire is at cost, they are making a killing if you ask me.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by 89coupe


Who do you work for? You must know how cheap wire is at cost, they are making a killing if you ask me.

If they are properly labeling everything and running it neatly that's not a bad price at all. For bigger jobs the wire I spec for multi room audio is fairly nice 12/4, cost is just under a buck a foot and it retails for a $1.99 per foot. Our average run for most jobs works out to about 125 feet per run, my cost to install that per zone is higher than what you're paying.

I edited my last comment by the way, just to say good call on upgrading the HDMI cable.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


If they are properly labeling everything and running it neatly that's not a bad price at all. For bigger jobs the wire I spec for multi room audio is fairly nice 12/4, cost is just under a buck a foot and it retails for a $1.99 per foot. Our average run for most jobs works out to about 125 feet per run, my cost to install that per zone is higher than what you're paying.

I edited my last comment by the way, just to say good call on upgrading the HDMI cable.

Maybe its just because my house is much smaller then what you are use to working on...LOL.

[jadeboy]

Originally posted by E36M3
I've had some of the expensive systems, and used the majority of them. My personal experience has been that people never really get much value out of them, despite the massive costs involved.

The best bang for the buck, with amazing usability and features is Sonos. For a couple grand, you can get an amazing system for as many zones as you would need. http://www.sonos.com -- and its simple enough to install and configure yourself.

Sounds interesting.. very useful if your house is already built.. How is the sound quality.. my concern is the sound might seem too directional, not enough bass and it might not have a large enough sound stage..

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by jadeboy


Sounds interesting.. very useful if your house is already built.. How is the sound quality.. my concern is the sound might seem too directional, not enough bass and it might not have a large enough sound stage..

They make 3 versions:

An all in one version that has an amp and speakers built in

An amplified version that you can connect external speakers to

A non amplified version that has audio outputs and just plugs into your existing system

It supports lossless audio, the amp is 4 ohm stable and sounds good considering the price. Think of it as just a source that you can plug into any system.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by Mibz
:/ I honestly don't see how this is possible. I've seen a single Cat6 do just under 8Gb real world so I don't see how two could possibly fail, short of a bad part somewhere in the chain.

Ah well, I guess we'll see how it goes.

I don't understand it either, what baffles me more is how HDBaseT can do all that and more over a single ethernet cable up to 330ft.... I don't think it's the cable not being able to handle it, it's something else, i'm just not too sure what it could be. When the unit failed on the field the first thing I thought was a crimp in the cable or bad connection but even when we brought them back to the office we had the same issue with multiple units and cables that were verified to be fine.

[benyl]

Originally posted by kenny


Weird, they discontinued the one I have. I got the 8x4 HDMI matrix over cat6 and it was $4k Now its two separate products for $6k. Wonder why they separated it.

Still available on ebay though:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gefen-8x4-HDMI-matrix-over-CAT5-EXT-HDMI-CAT5-844-/220467459776?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3354e276c0

What is the diff?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5704&seq=1&format=2

The reviews on Monoprice seem to say it sends 1080p through cat6 no problem.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by benyl


What is the diff?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5704&seq=1&format=2

The reviews on Monoprice seem to say it sends 1080p through cat6 no problem. I never even thought to look on Monoprice.

The problem with that unit is no external remote/IR runs. It looks like you have to be within line of sight to use that thing and that makes it pretty useless in the basement.

[ercchry]

EDIT:^^^ look at the pics, it has an rs-232 port on the back of it


Originally posted by benyl


What is the diff?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5704&seq=1&format=2

The reviews on Monoprice seem to say it sends 1080p through cat6 no problem.

not enough info on that thing. the good hdmi switchers act like a sink for the sources so then they can send the signal out again with enough keys so you dont run into hdcp issues. plus some companies actually put money into r&d...

[benyl]

Originally posted by Mibz
I never even thought to look on Monoprice.

The problem with that unit is no external remote/IR runs. It looks like you have to be within line of sight to use that thing and that makes it pretty useless in the basement.

I didn't either until I was lurking on the digital home forum.

It doesn't seem like those guys are really into content distribution. Are there better forums out there?

[benyl]

Originally posted by ercchry
plus some companies actually put money into r&d...

You mean like Monster Cable? haha

[Mibz]

Originally posted by ercchry
EDIT:^^^ look at the pics, it has an rs-232 port on the back of it I guess I'm just unfamiliar with it, but you're saying you can hook up an IR hub or something to the RS-232 and use that? I always assumed serial ports were just for configuration, nothing else.

[89coupe]

SO what is better? Running HDMI or CAT6 with baluns?

Seems like the baluns are just as much or more then just running HDMI to begin with?

[benyl]

Once my house is built, I am willing to throw away $200 to see if this shit works. Sure beats paying thousands... haha

[kenny]

If its anything like the 4x2 hdmi matrix I had from monoprice, the biggest issue is hdcp. Some devices wont allow multiple displays to tuned to the same output device (blank screen for everyone connected to that output). Other times, it would work but it'll interfere with the first display that is already tuned into it while it does the handshake (few flashes of the screen, occasional audio pop).

[ercchry]

^^EDIT: another cool thing with some of these better devices is that if you have a display that is not hdcp compliant instead of killing it the switch will send it a colored screen, and only that display (all others will still work) nice feature for trouble shooting

also switching time on these better switchers is normally better too


Originally posted by benyl


You mean like Monster Cable? haha

more like extron and crestron who have actual engineers


Originally posted by Mibz
I guess I'm just unfamiliar with it, but you're saying you can hook up an IR hub or something to the RS-232 and use that? I always assumed serial ports were just for configuration, nothing else.

rs-232 lets you have two way communication with a device, ir will only give you one way. you would need to know what strings are needed to be sent to the device and need something that can send those strings to it. amx, extron, creston.... all those companies make different pieces that can "talk" to other devices with rs-232

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by benyl
What is the diff?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=5704&seq=1&format=2

The reviews on Monoprice seem to say it sends 1080p through cat6 no problem.

There are a couple issues with that particular item.

- If you can get it to sync with the devices on both ends, it can take a while.

- If you are watching a source that only allows one stream, like some Shaw boxes, if someone else tries to watch the same Shaw box both TV screens will go black

- If you are watching a source that allows multiple streams, when a second person tries to connect to the stream the first persons screen will go black, sometimes for up to 10 or 15 seconds.

- From what I understand all of this stuff happens because the matrix is trying to actually connect one shaw box to two TV's and a lot of devices have serious sync issues when trying to do an HDCP handshake between multiple devices.



Originally posted by 89coupe
SO what is better? Running HDMI or CAT6 with baluns?

Seems like the baluns are just as much or more then just running HDMI to begin with?

They both have pro's and con's, you decide by the length of the run. Under 25 feet go HDMI cable direct but make sure you use a quality cable, Monoprice stuff is fine for 3, 6 or 12 feet but when you hit 25 feet it's worth it get one of the better cables money can buy. You can run into issues with some components not having a strong enough output for long runs, and even on components with a good output you can still run into resolution problems. That's why you see some people on monoprice saying their PS3 works on 720p but not 1080p.

Sometimes baluns can take a little longer to sync but once they do you will have no problems sending lossless audio with 1080p/60hz or higher at 25-130 feet.





Originally posted by Mibz
I guess I'm just unfamiliar with it, but you're saying you can hook up an IR hub or something to the RS-232 and use that? I always assumed serial ports were just for configuration, nothing else.

Most upper end equipment uses either RS-232 or IP for control in addition to IR or RF for a handheld remote. RS-232 or IP are for control systems, for example I have a client with one of the newer AVR-XX11 series Denon receivers and with RS-232 I can send a discrete volume command to tell the it to go to exactly volume 30 if I wanted to, or change the sound mode to All CH Stereo via a single command, no scrolling through menus or sub menus. After I tell it to do that it will send me back a message saying it did it.


Originally posted by benyl
Once my house is built, I am willing to throw away $200 to see if this shit works. Sure beats paying thousands... haha

Trust me, you may as well throw away the $200. If you really don't believe me i'd be happy to sell you the one we brought in for testing at a loss, but once you find out how terrible it is you can't bring it back :)

[tictactoe2004]

Oops, double post, I accidently hit quote instead of edit.

If anyone here wants a quality HDMI matrix these are two I know work well:

http://www.justaddpower.com/

http://www.atlona.com/HDMI-Matrix-Switchers/

[Mibz]

Oh damn, the Atlona AT-PROHD44M-SR is exactly what I need and inexpensive.

Who wants to sell it to me?

[benyl]

Altona might be the ticket.

Anyone got bro pricing? Group buy? haha

[tictactoe2004]

I have access to both, Atlona is a fairly low margin product. I'm good to help you guys out if you want some... beyond.ca discount.

Obviously I'd want to make sure it's ok with the mods but last time I asked rage about something similar he said it was ok if I was just helping out other beyonders.

[Mibz]

If only there were some PRIVATE way you could get your MESSAGE across.

Actually, you know what, I don't want to waste your time. I'm spending so much on my upcoming wedding this would be a scary expense to take at the moment. I'll definitely talk to you when the time comes though.

[benyl]

Why aren't you playing F1 with us?

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by Mibz
If only there were some PRIVATE way you could get your MESSAGE across.

Then it looks like i'm trying to hide something, which i'm not. Normally I try to stay away from deals under 100k, selling a two thousand dollar item at 5 or 10% over cost to help someone out isn't a benefit to me at all. I always follow the rules, check my user rating :)

[89coupe]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


Then it looks like i'm trying to hide something, which i'm not. Normally I try to stay away from deals under 100k, selling a two thousand dollar item at 5 or 10% over cost to help someone out isn't a benefit to me at all. I always follow the rules, check my user rating :)

Haha, I doubt anyone on this site has a setup in their home thats over a $100k.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by 89coupe


Haha, I doubt anyone on this site has a setup in their home thats over a $100k.

i bet there is... doesnt take much to hit $100k when someone else is doing the work. most of the boardrooms we do are starting at $100k... and thats just one room! :nut:

[89coupe]

Originally posted by ercchry


i bet there is... doesnt take much to hit $100k when someone else is doing the work. most of the boardrooms we do are starting at $100k... and thats just one room! :nut:

I doubt it. A business yeh, a home, not on this forum.

If I'm wrong, I would love to see some of these $100k plus setups.

[kenny]

Yeah doubt there are any residential systems on here at 100k, and if there are it's probably underutilized like E36M3 said :)

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by 89coupe


I doubt it. A business yeh, a home, not on this forum.

If I'm wrong, I would love to see some of these $100k plus setups.

I'll see what kind of pictures I can publicly post. This one is just of the theater in our showroom, so I know I can post this one. We've done systems like this in and around calgary before. This system is valued at around 750k, it uses the best of everything money can buy (or could buy 3 years ago).

There's just over 10,000 watts of power, 22 speakers, everything is totally hidden, all the chairs are motorized, the screen has motorized masking and is also curved. The speakers and amps are all California Audio Technology, Lexicon processor, i'm sure i'm missing a ton of stuff.


http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/wtfimnameless/sample%20drawing/SmartHomesTheater-Email.jpg

[tictactoe2004]

Here's another theater, I'll get some control room pictures next time i'm out at a bigger job.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/wtfimnameless/sample%20drawing/Calgary2.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/wtfimnameless/sample%20drawing/Calgary1.jpg
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn304/wtfimnameless/sample%20drawing/Calgary3.jpg

[Mitsu3000gt]

Do you work for SMART, tictactoe?

Also is that first theater actually as curved as the picture makes it look? Looks like it sucks for the back row, whose seats are pointed at the right hand wall/door.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Do you work for SMART, tictactoe?

Also is that first theater actually as curved as the picture makes it look? Looks like it sucks for the back row, whose seats are pointed at the right hand wall/door.

Yes I do and that picture was just the lens that the photographer used, the seats directly face the screen.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


Yes I do and that picture was just the lens that the photographer used, the seats directly face the screen.

Ahh ok that makes sense. I've been in that theater before, it's quite nice.

Replace that RUNCO projector though with something else just as good and you could cut the price down by like $150k haha. What are your guys' profit margins on RUNCO? I've always been curious.

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Ahh ok that makes sense. I've been in that theater before, it's quite nice.

Replace that RUNCO projector though with something else just as good and you could cut the price down by like $150k haha. What are your guys' profit margins on RUNCO? I've always been curious.

We dumped Runco for DPI. Right now there's a Runco VX44 in there but we'll most likely put in one of the DPI Titan 3D projectors next. The Runco that's currently in there is worth about 140k with the lens, depending on how we configure the DPI it will range between 85K and 200K so it may actually go up in price :)

This badboy is listed at $167,480USD without the lens or 3D kit, Add 7-13K for the lens and 60K for their Level 2 3D kit. :)

249LBS and 14,000 lumens. Lol, $5 to the first guy to look in the lens of that thing while it's on :)

http://www.digitalprojection.com/BrowseProjectors/SeriesList/ProjectorList/ProjectorDetail/tabid/87/ProjectorId/155/MarketTypeId/11/Default.aspx

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


We dumped Runco for DPI. Right now there's a Runco VX44 in there but we'll most likely put in one of the DPI Titan 3D projectors next. The Runco that's currently in there is worth about 140k with the lens, depending on how we configure the DPI it will range between 85K and 200K so it may actually go up in price :)

This badboy is listed at $167,480USD without the lens or 3D kit, Add 7-13K for the lens and 60K for their Level 2 3D kit. :)

http://www.digitalprojection.com/BrowseProjectors/SeriesList/ProjectorList/ProjectorDetail/tabid/87/ProjectorId/155/MarketTypeId/11/Default.aspx

That looks like a very nice projector too haha.

I never liked RUNCO, they seemed to play the market by being the first to do something for a little while, charging obscene prices, and then something better would come out for like 1/10th the price by a different brand haha. They had old 1280 resolution projectors selling for like $75k when 1080p units were out for $5k by other manufactures. I never understood who would ever buy them except for people who did no research and just gave the install guys a blank cheque. Nothing wrong with that, I just think it's funny.

Affordable 3D projectors are on their way, I'd be curious how they compare with the $200k units. My guess is they are surprisingly similar considering the $196,000 price difference haha. I know some of the cost is the anamorphic lens and such, but setups like the Panamorph aren't that expensive. Also I bet a lot the guys buying these $700k theaters couldn't tell the difference anyways haha. I wish I had money to burn like that.

What is your guys' profit margin on a $200k projector? $50k?

[89coupe]

Originally posted by tictactoe2004


They both have pro's and con's, you decide by the length of the run. Under 25 feet go HDMI cable direct but make sure you use a quality cable, Monoprice stuff is fine for 3, 6 or 12 feet but when you hit 25 feet it's worth it get one of the better cables money can buy. You can run into issues with some components not having a strong enough output for long runs, and even on components with a good output you can still run into resolution problems. That's why you see some people on monoprice saying their PS3 works on 720p but not 1080p.

Sometimes baluns can take a little longer to sync but once they do you will have no problems sending lossless audio with 1080p/60hz or higher at 25-130 feet.



So I ended up going with quad runs of CAT6 to each TV, dual runs of CAT5, & dual runs of Coax.

I did 8 zones, six keypads, one 5.1 system & one 7.2 system. The 8 zones all run to the utility room, seperate rack & board for all the equipment and wiring.

I ran dedicated power to my main 7.2 system & upgraded to 12G THX inwall wire.

Ran conduit to my addict from utility room, and everywhere else I could think of.

Hopefully I haven't missed anything...lol

[Mitsu3000gt]

What the hell is "THX" wire haha. Even $100 Logitech computer speakers are "THX certified". It's just something companies pay for so they can use it as marketing, unless THX means something else in this case.

Could you have just bought your wire from Monoprice? 16g wire is more than fine unless you're running some pretty crazy stuff.

As for HDMI cable length, 35ft Monoprice stuff is just fine, and works well with the PS3. I haven't yet had the chance to try any longer lengths yet though. You went Cat5 though so it's not an issue.

[benyl]

With 4 runs of cat6, why 2 runs of cat5 as well?

[89coupe]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
What the hell is "THX" wire haha. Even $100 Logitech computer speakers are "THX certified". It's just something companies pay for so they can use it as marketing, unless THX means something else in this case.

Could you have just bought your wire from Monoprice? 16g wire is more than fine unless you're running some pretty crazy stuff.

As for HDMI cable length, 35ft Monoprice stuff is just fine, and works well with the PS3. I haven't yet had the chance to try any longer lengths yet though. You went Cat5 though so it's not an issue.

No, I'm forced to deal with the builders contractors.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by benyl
With 4 runs of cat6, why 2 runs of cat5 as well?

Agreed.

Running CAT5e is pointless if you already have CAT6 elsewhere.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by benyl
With 4 runs of cat6, why 2 runs of cat5 as well?

I can't recall what they are for, its part of my house package. The CAT6 runs are things I added, quad runs so I can have multiple sources.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by 89coupe


I can't recall what they are for, its part of my house package. The CAT6 runs are things I added, quad runs so I can have multiple sources.

multiple sources? if you have decided on the cat6 route are you not having a central rack in your basement then?

[89coupe]

Originally posted by ercchry


multiple sources? if you have decided on the cat6 route are you not having a central rack in your basement then?

Correct.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt

Could you have just bought your wire from Monoprice? 16g wire is more than fine unless you're running some pretty crazy stuff.



My 7.2 system is pretty crazy, not $100k crazy, but pretty crazy for joe blow.

[ercchry]

then you will have 0 sources at the display... only one run from switcher to display should be needed. unless you are not using a switcher?

[tictactoe2004]

Originally posted by 89coupe


So I ended up going with quad runs of CAT6 to each TV, dual runs of CAT5, & dual runs of Coax.

I did 8 zones, six keypads, one 5.1 system & one 7.2 system. The 8 zones all run to the utility room, seperate rack & board for all the equipment and wiring.

I ran dedicated power to my main 7.2 system & upgraded to 12G THX inwall wire.

Ran conduit to my addict from utility room, and everywhere else I could think of.

Hopefully I haven't missed anything...lol

Nice.

Just a couple other things to consider:

If you want a local source like an xbox 360 or ps3 hooked up to one of the TVs you should run a conduit from the TV to that location, like a closet or cupboard or somewhere close enough to the TV that the controllers would be in range but out of sight. This will be enough if there is only a TV in the room and no dedicated audio.

If it's one of the 5.1 or 7.1 zones you would want to do the above for video plus you'd want to get the audio back to the central rack location for surround sound, either a conduit or a few cat6 for an audio balun, they make single cat6 baluns to transfer either digital coax or optical.

I'd recommend a spot where you can have a single disc blu-ray player or some other local sources on each floor. In my house i'm doing one of my kitchen cupboards and upstairs in the linen closet. Do the same run as you did to your TVs for these.

If you don't do the above everything will still work fine it's just if you got a single disc blu-ray player you'd have to have it plugged in via HDMI to the TV directly. So you have to figure out how to hide the cable after the fact... and if the room had 7.1 surround you wouldn't have surround sound on that local source, only the stuff downstairs.

Either way what you've done already is 10 fold more than the average home.


Edit: Actually I take that back about not having surround sound and having to go HDMI direct to the TV, because you have 4 cat 6 and 2 cat5e you can use 2x cat6 for hdmi baluns from the rack to the TV, you can use 2x cat6 for HDMI baluns for a blu-ray player sitting under the TV back down to the rack. You can use one of the cat5e for internet to the TV and blu-ray player and you can use the other cat5e to send IR from both devices back down to your rack.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

You're in good shape but i'd still consider the things I suggested if it's not too late.