Hope for racing in calgary. [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

Modelexis

01-13-2011, 09:52 PM

I would love to have a racetrack, but I don't think I'm entitled to one by law.

The people that don't want to pay for a racetrack shouldn't be forced to pay for a racetrack.

Not a popular opinion but someone has to lead by example...

I would be willing to pay into a monthly race track dues fund for a racetrack. I have this opinion about everything in society, but it should be left to those in favor of a racetrack to find a way to fund a racetrack.

What better way to find out if Calgarians want a racetrack or not than to accept donations, and if the donations are weak we get a weak racetrack, and if the donations are great then we get a great racetrack, and if there are no donations, then we know that Calgarians don't want a racetrack.

Why everyone chooses to rally the state for a chance to hold the gun I can understand from a simply effective position, but not a moral one.

If the christians and muslims and mormons can fork over 15% of their earnings to circle jerk on sundays, we can sure as hell fork over the same amount for a cause we are passionate about. Until the racing community gets enough people as passionate about racing as the religious goof balls are about superstition, we will never have a nice track.

J-hop

01-13-2011, 10:43 PM

great post modelexis. This is something I always mention to people, ya know its great to have the support of the motorsport community, but the community is so small in calgary compared with our population that it really doesn't mean anything in the end, and realistically we have to accept the fact that no matter how bad we want the track to stay if they public doesn't want it then logically it can't stay...

but as you mention if a compromise can be struck then that would be awesome.

rage2

01-14-2011, 09:29 AM

There are investors in place, nobody is looking for a handout. The problem is land, with a long term lease. Nobody is going to throw $20m at a facilities when the land's only good for 2 years.

ercchry

01-14-2011, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by rage2
There are investors in place, nobody is looking for a handout. The problem is land, with a long term lease. Nobody is going to throw $20m at a facilities when the land's only good for 2 years.

:werd:

the racing community has more than enough money to throw at a track... but whenever someone tries to build one they are faced with the "i would love one, but not in my backyard" mentality. until the city can dedicate land to this it will never happen

Zewind

01-14-2011, 10:10 AM

LAND is a huge issue. I am hoping the city will sell some land in the industrial area to support the track.

Going outside the city has been a pain from what ive heard, Drag strip noise being the largestest issue.

ercchry

01-14-2011, 10:12 AM

it would be nice if someone could get a "go-kart" track built ;) haha

Sugarphreak

01-14-2011, 11:18 AM

...

ghostS10RT

01-14-2011, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by rage2
There are investors in place, nobody is looking for a handout. The problem is land, with a long term lease. Nobody is going to throw $20m at a facilities when the land's only good for 2 years.

This is very true!
We have quotes to repave the track (1/4 mile). It's between $40 000 to $80 000 depending on how deep we go.
It's a tough bill for only 2 years...

We would like to upgrade the timing system and displays
We would like to upgrade the PA system
We would like to fix the bleachers.

Again, nobody wants to invest a cent in the track for such a short lease.

HiTempguy1

01-14-2011, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis
Uninformed bullshit

Congratulations on having no idea what you are talking about. Race City does not cost taxpayers any money. Period. So, thank you for perpetuating one of the big reasons people trumpet Race City is bad. :facepalm:

CUG

01-14-2011, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by HiTempguy1

Congratulations on having no idea what you are talking about. Race City does not cost taxpayers any money. Period. So, thank you for perpetuating one of the big reasons people trumpet Race City is bad. :facepalm: You have to admit, he's well spoken. I don't like him really at all, but there is a point in there.

My position is that we wouldn't be without a track if we were left to fund it ourselves, provided the city let us buy land for it. They're trying to avoid future annexing by being in control of whatever industrial land there is. It's weak as shit.

I also feel that Art McKenzie is only in this to pull whatever dying bubbles of cash profit he can take out of the track. He's spent NOTHING on it, yet continued to pull in money over the last years, leaving users to fund repairs. I highly doubt Art McKenzie has even a remote interest in the track staying open, aside from his $3000 secret street nights.

First and foremost: bounce McKenzie out of the picture entirely.

Darell_n

01-14-2011, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by CUG

I also feel that Art McKenzie is only in this to pull whatever dying bubbles of cash profit he can take out of the track. He's spent NOTHING on it, yet continued to pull in money over the last years, leaving users to fund repairs. I highly doubt Art McKenzie has even a remote interest in the track staying open, aside from his $3000 secret street nights.

First and foremost: bounce McKenzie out of the picture entirely.

x2

DonJuan

01-15-2011, 12:16 PM

Allowing the motorsports community to fund their own track is a great idea. Thats what race city is/was. It was privately owned and recieved no tax money. Art didnt put money in it either.

I would think with all the shops and clubs around the city that would benefit from motorsports here and a small but passionate racing community there would be more than enough funds to build a decent renue to satisfy all types of racing.

But step one would be getting the city to allocate some land nearby with some longer term lease for a 10-20M investment to be feasable.

Edit: Looks like this is exactly what others have already said... This is what I get for reading the thread and forgetting to hit reply till the following day.

J-hop

01-15-2011, 12:32 PM

well you bring up an interesting point, people have said that potential sponsors won't put money into the track due to the fact race city might not be here in a couple years and it would be a waste of money....

but I started going to the track almost 10 years ago and it badly needed an overhaul then, so where were all the sponsors and millions of "racing community" money back then?

HiTempguy1

01-15-2011, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by J-hop

but I started going to the track almost 10 years ago and it badly needed an overhaul then, so where were all the sponsors and millions of "racing community" money back then?

I don't believe Art has owned it that long, and again, this has to be a long term plan (basically, the track can exist as long as it is funded/paid for). 10 years ain't much in business terms, it can take 5 years for a new business to start producing cash. To invest a couple million (or 10) into something that will disappear in under 10 years is not good business, and any potential investors were smart in their decision apparently because the track looks like it will be closed in 1 more year.

Also, (I don't know if this is true) but I've been racing cars since I was 16 (now 22). In 6 years motorsports (especially the amateur kind) has IMO exploded in Alberta. :dunno:

J-hop

01-15-2011, 02:08 PM

no I completely agree with that (about the 10 years not being a good long term invest), but I think it would have warranted a repave of even a small section, (if there are these "millions" of racing community dollars floating around as some in here claim). It wasn't until the track got almost dangerous that they repaved a small section (think it was just up to the 60' at first?) for the secret street drags which should have been done years prior.

Was it city owned before art?

edit: I also knew some builders that were trying to get sponsorship for a permanent track in Langdon (this was about 3 years ago now) but they couldn't drum up support from the motorsport community at all (or from enough sponsors) so the project was thrown out.

I just think some people are looking at the perfect world case where everyone wants to contribute, when the reality is the racing community in calgary and area has no money they want to invest in the future of their sport....

CUG

01-15-2011, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by HiTempguy1

I don't believe Art has owned it that long, He's been the land lessor there for at least that long. I've been going there since I was 15, and I'm almost in my 30's; he's been a factor there for a long time. Since I've gone there, I've never seen a repave and the funny car guys were complaining of the 1000 hump in the left lane even back then. Art just simply has to be gone he could have put money in it back then and did not. That doesn't rest on anyone's shoulders except his.

I enjoy how he's perceived as one of our advocates here. I think he just wants out of it.

J-hop

01-15-2011, 07:35 PM

ok yea thats what I figured, I had only ever heard of Art being in the mix since I have been going there

Zewind

01-15-2011, 10:03 PM

I dont know if Rage or Keeny are putting together sometime to go to the focus group, but I will be going.

If anyone would like to voice their opinion / comments / suggests. let me know by PM or on the CRC website. Ill be taking as much information to the group as possible.

CUG

01-16-2011, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Zewind
I dont know if Rage or Keeny are putting together sometime to go to the focus group, but I will be going.

If anyone would like to voice their opinion / comments / suggests. let me know by PM or on the CRC website. Ill be taking as much information to the group as possible. I'm heading there too. I'd like to at least have some details as to what, if any plans are on the table, or, if we're just politely and slowly being told to fuck off.

Duckman

01-17-2011, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by CUG
He's been the land lessor there for at least that long. I've been going there since I was 15, and I'm almost in my 30's; he's been a factor there for a long time. Since I've gone there, I've never seen a repave and the funny car guys were complaining of the 1000 hump in the left lane even back then. Art just simply has to be gone he could have put money in it back then and did not. That doesn't rest on anyone's shoulders except his.

I enjoy how he's perceived as one of our advocates here. I think he just wants out of it.

Really?
What about the 2.4 million dollars of his own money that he put in to buy the stupid place? How much money do you think it costs to run it and how much do you think it makes?

And yes, Art does want out. After 17 years of being shit on by just about everybody, he is a wee bit sick of the whole thing.

CUG

01-17-2011, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Duckman

Really?
What about the 2.4 million dollars of his own money that he put in to buy the stupid place? How much money do you think it costs to run it and how much do you think it makes?

And yes, Art does want out. After 17 years of being shit on by just about everybody, he is a wee bit sick of the whole thing.
I'm going to buy a house, not put a single penny into its upkeep after two or three years. When my tenants complain about the standing water in their basement, I'll them they can fix it themselves if it's an issue, but they must keep paying rent.

AFTER THAT

I'm going to buy a business and I'm not going to spend a single useful dime on anything for it. I'm going to charge $3000 per night for coming in the door, and when my clients feel that it's too expensive for what they're getting, say because of holes in the wall, stinking toilets and maybe the bunched up carpet they keep tripping on, I'll tell them if they want a better experience, they can pay for someone to fix all these problems, or hire themselves.

Other track owners are amazed at how busy Race City during the season. Bookings nearly every day of the week, every friday night and weekends, yet the facility is a complete and total dump compared to every other facility I've been to in North American and abroad.

Don't ask me what I think Art pulls in off of the track, because I know what he charges for a weekend and what he charges for a night, depending on who the customer is. If the place was kept up in first place, it would provide value to the users and would stay usable to more people, spectators and racers alike.

I'm averse to keeping this dive around as long as it's in Arts hands it seems like he's clearly tired of it, and I don't blame him a single bit. I don't think he's a bad person, or of ill integrity, I just believe he couldn't care less about the track. He's a very nice man and I enjoy talking to him. It DOES seems that if he had a legitimate interest in the health of the track, it may have been demonstrated by better upkeep, maintenance, promotion, and attracting bigger events. I'd go even further to say that its poor management and upkeep was a result of some possible foresight he may have received from city officials a long time ago. The man knows how to manage, so it appears as though it was a conscious choice not to do so with respect to the track. Perhaps he was faced with a feasibility issue of maintaining a top grade track long ago and decided to proceed as he did.

I don't believe the users should fund, over and above what they already pay to be there, improvements to a business that is operating for-profit.

So what about his initial investment? Maybe it was his dads money and he just didn't care? I don't know ;)

Duckman

01-18-2011, 11:40 AM

Thanks for the clarification, you make some valid points.

Things started to go bad when the sponsorship money from the tobacco companies stopped. They were the single biggest source of revenue and that money has never been replaced leading to the gradual deterioration of the place.

He's stuck with something that he paid a lot of money for that he can't pick up and move somewhere else and that nobody in their right mind is going to buy, so what can he do?

And no, it wasn't Jack's money although he did co-sign the loan. But Art paid back every penny of that loan.

CUG

01-18-2011, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Duckman
Thanks for the clarification, you make some valid points.

Things started to go bad when the sponsorship money from the tobacco companies stopped. They were the single biggest source of revenue and that money has never been replaced leading to the gradual deterioration of the place.

He's stuck with something that he paid a lot of money for that he can't pick up and move somewhere else and that nobody in their right mind is going to buy, so what can he do?

And no, it wasn't Jack's money although he did co-sign the loan. But Art paid back every penny of that loan. I remember the tobacco thing. There's still part of the players sign out in the infield of the roadcourse.

What's the term? Cost-prohibitive? That track couldn't be duplicated anywhere near Calgary today. If we want that type of facility, it seems we'll have to acquire the land from the city, and then spend the money - millions, to fix it up. This lease shit needs to go.

Zewind

01-18-2011, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by CUG
I remember the tobacco thing. There's still part of the players sign out in the infield of the roadcourse.

What's the term? Cost-prohibitive? That track couldn't be duplicated anywhere near Calgary today. If we want that type of facility, it seems we'll have to acquire the land from the city, and then spend the money - millions, to fix it up. This lease shit needs to go.

My biggest issue is the land lease thing. Im hoping to get the city to sell some land in the industrial area for a new track, but I doubt that.

I do have another area of land that looks nice. close to calgary

Sentry

01-18-2011, 12:38 PM

Well it seems as though Rimbey is proceeding with construction of their drag strip (about 20 minutes west of Red Deer), so if all this goes to shit, at least the drag racers will have a closer option than Castrol or Medicine Hat.

As for the road racers, 99% of their cars are trailered and while trucking it out to Edmonton for a race weekend is definitely an inconvenience, it's not the end of the world. (There are a few Edmonton racers that come down here for races)

I definitely agree with what was said before, that it is inexcusable for a city of 1 million to not have some manner of motorsports venue.

rook

01-28-2011, 12:32 PM

So... how did it go last night? The meeting with the Alderman?

I really hope that there's hope.

Zewind

01-28-2011, 12:52 PM

The meeting was very good. Another meeting is going to be scheduled for next week sometime. Ill have a full post on my website up around 5pm today.

ercchry

01-28-2011, 02:03 PM

from driftwest

1)RaceCity is in a good location. Although it would be nice to rebuild a whole new track somewhere else...its never going to happen.
The Cost + Land available + Approval process = just not an option in Calgary.

2)Re-Building on RaceCity is an option, if the City lets them keep the land.

3)There is an option to make a new track into a "Not For Profit" run organization, run by the City of Calgary. This would mean that there would be a board of directors who oversee the track and what events take place there. We would still have to pay a track rental fee but the funds would go back into maintaining the track. This is just one of the suggested business models to take some pressure of Art (current track owner). Groups like the NHL and tracks like Portland are NFP run organizations btw.

4) So right now the group of motorsports representatives needs to elect a task force (Lawyers, Accountants, Marketing People, etc..) to do some reasearch and present the City of Calgary with a solution. This Group will hopefully be formed by the end of the month.

5) The Alderman isn't really doing anything for the track directly, he is just helping to organize the group that will then approach City Hall.

alloroc

01-28-2011, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Zewind
The meeting was very good. Another meeting is going to be scheduled for next week sometime. Ill have a full post on my website up around 5pm today.

can you post a link .. if it is in your sig I'm sorry I have signatures disabled.

Chrisw

02-03-2011, 10:41 PM

Edit:

Zewind, I four your website. Thanks for the update. I must say though, your site is daily confusing. I can't seem to find much info (although this may be due to me using a smart phone). You posted that you've created a plan for a new track and ask for comments, but I can't find ANY details on this new plan...

Chris

nykz

02-03-2011, 11:36 PM

Link to Site (http://www.calgaryracingcore.com/)

84stock

02-19-2011, 11:16 AM

I say Art has been a cheap ass mother who has done nothing to maintain the track and according to the media if he had maintained the payments to the city closing wouldn't even be an issue.

Soooo, either racing in Calgary isn't profitable or Art has squeezed every bit of juice from the grapes and will leave Calgary with an abandoned facility littered with raisins.

If I'm wrong and he has done everything to make it a go tell me different. Saw Rick McIver at many secret streets, never once Art though.

Hell, they don't even bother to make any updates to their site throughout the winter. MHDRA already has upcoming events posted.....

Zewind

02-19-2011, 01:02 PM

I just want to update everyone on the TASK FORCE put together by Ald Shane Keating.

We have 5 people selected to start up this task force. It will only grow from there. Now the objective of the task force is to keep motorsports racing in Calgary.

Also - Art has been too all the task force meetings so far.

soloracer

02-19-2011, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by 84stock
I say Art has been a cheap ass mother who has done nothing to maintain the track and according to the media if he had maintained the payments to the city closing wouldn't even be an issue.

Soooo, either racing in Calgary isn't profitable or Art has squeezed every bit of juice from the grapes and will leave Calgary with an abandoned facility littered with raisins.

If I'm wrong and he has done everything to make it a go tell me different. Saw Rick McIver at many secret streets, never once Art though.

Hell, they don't even bother to make any updates to their site throughout the winter. MHDRA already has upcoming events posted.....

For the record, Art isn't "abondoning" the track - it's being stolen from him. If Art hadn't spent his own money fighting city hall for the last two years you wouldn't be wasting your breath talking about a race track - it would be gone already. Art was "late" on one payment several years ago. The city is just using that as an excuse to break the lease. Even if he hadn't been late on a payment they would have found another way to break the lease. The fact of the matter is certain people in the city want the track gone and they would find any excuse to make it happen.

Imagine that you were late on a payment for your RX7 - could be due to cash flow issue, could be due to clerical error, who knows. However for the next 5 years you are spot on with your payments and then one day the bank shows up to repo your car. You aren't behind on your payments or anything. They just want it. Now imagine that all the losers who were catching rides with you for gas money show up to bitch about how you lost your car. How pissed would you be?

Art offered to sell the track at one time and nobody took him up on it. If any of the bitchers and moaners here thought they could have done better they could have stepped up to the plate. But nobody did. Why? Because who is going to "invest" in a race track on land with a questionable future? Art would have been a million times better off investing his original purchase money in a GIC. It would have been more lucrative, less risk and a hell of a lot less headache. Instead he put his money into building a facility that we have used for over 15 years. And you have the stones to call him down for it? Or maybe you think Art should take it up the hooper for "the good of the community"?

BigMass

02-19-2011, 02:10 PM

Why lease. Any possibility of buying farmland just outside the city and turning it into a track? Alberta has nothing but land. It’s not like we’re Manhattan or Tokyo and there is nowhere to build anymore. Just a question..

soloracer

02-19-2011, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by BigMass
Why lease. Any possibility of buying farmland just outside the city and turning it into a track? Alberta has nothing but land. It’s not like we’re Manhattan or Tokyo and there is nowhere to build anymore. Just a question..

This has been covered a million times. Go ahead, buy all the farm land you want. Then try to get permission to build a track. There isn't an MD around that will allow one to be built. You guys must think that all track owners/developers are stupid or something. Everyone without a clue seems to think it's all roses and sunshine. A lack of interest or investment money has not been the problem. People with deep pockets and far more knowledge of how things work than 99% of the guys here haven't been able to get it done. If Race City disappears you will be a senior citizen before there is a viable track within a few miles of the city.

speedog

02-19-2011, 03:15 PM

Still something is amiss down here in Calgary. How is it that Edmonton has both the Castrol Raceway and Edmonton International Raceway within a comfortable drive of Edmonton? Does anyone know of the history of these two facilities and why something similar has never happened within a reasonable distance to Calgary. Are the M.D.'s down here that much against these type of facilties?

And pics...

Castrol Raceway by Nisku...
http://www.castrolraceway.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/facility.gif

Edmonton International Raceway by Wetaskiwin...
http://www.edmontonraceway.com/track.jpg

speedog

02-19-2011, 03:22 PM

And to add to the above post, all I can remember about past racing facilities in or near Calgary would be Stampede Raceway, Circle 8 and Calgary International - all within city limits. Nothing that I can remember out in the countryside. These three facilities all succumbed to Calgary's growth much like Race City will too. That said, would people drive as far as Mossleigh or Irricana/Beiseker if a facility was built that far out?

89s1

02-19-2011, 06:15 PM

Drive outsie the city for a track?

I would if I had to. Without even thinking twice.

Sentry

02-19-2011, 08:52 PM

Closer than Rimbey, and way closer than Edmonton/MH

Zewind

02-19-2011, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by speedog
Still something is amiss down here in Calgary. How is it that Edmonton has both the Castrol Raceway and Edmonton International Raceway within a comfortable drive of Edmonton? Does anyone know of the history of these two facilities and why something similar has never happened within a reasonable distance to Calgary. Are the M.D.'s down here that much against these type of facilties?

And pics...

Now I havent heard anything about talk to the MD of Foothills (south of calgary). But Rockyview will never in the foreseeable approve a track or major facility. I am actually amazed the CN going a logistical yard put in, but they do have a very big pull.

Originally posted by 89s1
Drive outsie the city for a track?

I would if I had to. Without even thinking twice.

Having a track outside the city is an idea on the table. but if we can save the current land it would be a better options.

I actually have 1 piece of land that Im thinking would work perfect - probably is that its about 45 mins from downtown Calgary.

Maxt

02-19-2011, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Zewind

Now I havent heard anything about talk to the MD of Foothills (south of calgary). But Rockyview will never in the foreseeable approve a track or major facility. I am actually amazed the CN going a logistical yard put in, but they do have a very big pull.

Having a track outside the city is an idea on the table. but if we can save the current land it would be a better options.

I actually have 1 piece of land that Im thinking would work perfect - probably is that its about 45 mins from downtown Calgary.

Forget about the MD of Foothills, RMMP or whatever its called (the dirt oval) has been living on borrowed time in the MD. The MD has put a lot of limits on it, and its currently for sale, as the limits impede its ability to make money through other event uses.
You can't even put up one of those temporary car tents in the MD without a permit, or someone complaining about it.

What about the County of Vulcan west of High River? They are looking for business development there, they have opened a whole new office devoted to new business development. And there is tons of open space there, its about 45 minutes from city limits

e31

02-19-2011, 09:31 PM

Sometimes in the mid-summer evenings, when it is quiet enough; I can hear the guys having a blast at the strip 15 km's away. Hopefully that never changes, but if it does the only noise I expect to hear from Calgary will be gangland gun-fire and fairies with white cowboy hats shouting "yoo-hoo" at each other a little too friendly...

If for no other reason, we must keep racing in Calgary to help offset the negative publicity garnered by the aforementioned activities (yes I consider the Stampede negative).

With that being said, I really don't like what Calgary has devolved into over the last 15 years. As of right now I am making a decision: If the situation around Race City doesn't positively solidify by the end of the 2011 season, I will relocate my company to the surrounding area so as to eliminate city taxes paid directly by my business.

I was vocal against the finger-trap bridge, I voiced my negative opinion about Druh Farrell & her crazy schemes. I'm tired of paying into this burning heap of shit that is Calgary and I will make this issue the last straw.

84stock

02-22-2011, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by speedog
[B]Still something is amiss down here in Calgary. How is it that Edmonton has both the Castrol Raceway and Edmonton International Raceway within a comfortable drive of Edmonton? Does anyone know of the history of these two facilities and why something similar has never happened within a reasonable distance to Calgary. Are the M.D.'s down here that much against these type of facilties?

Edmonton is a much easier city to deal with. Try opening any new business or expansion in Calgary, way too political.

As for Art, all I know is what I've heard & read. I have never seen him speak up at an event, in the news or any form of media to any great extent. heard more from Rick McIver than him.

Do I think he got screwed, yeah I'll give on that for sure.

Do I "think" the track could have been better managed, yep....better maintained, yep.......

When you see a spectators foot go "through" the rotted wood in the stands you know that didn't rot over night.

Do I think the city has offered no support to the track and/or lacked in any way to forge a working relationship with the operators of the facility, hell yeah!

Last of all, it's gotta be rough to make a profit with such a short season in our climate.........

CUG

02-22-2011, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by soloracer

This has been covered a million times. Go ahead, buy all the farm land you want. Then try to get permission to build a track. There isn't an MD around that will allow one to be built. You guys must think that all track owners/developers are stupid or something. Everyone without a clue seems to think it's all roses and sunshine. A lack of interest or investment money has not been the problem. People with deep pockets and far more knowledge of how things work than 99% of the guys here haven't been able to get it done. If Race City disappears you will be a senior citizen before there is a viable track within a few miles of the city. This is very sadly 110% true. There's so much old white hair in municipal offices that feel like people should be going to church instead of having fun. "Why race a stupid car? You could be at church?"