Want to see the quality of todays "finishing carpenters"?

[C_Dave45]

This is what you new-home buyers DON'T see....whats underneath all the shiny new tile, paint and floor coverings. This tub-deck construction was after THREE ATTEMPTS by the so-called "finishing carpenter" to get it right at my request. I mean really...is a tub deck THAT hard to construct?!?? My kid sister could do a better job.
The pictures also don't show that the tub was glued into place at over 3/4" out-of-square. They had to completely remove the tub. This is their "final product".

And now I'm supposed to make it look all straight and level?!!

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0458.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0444.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0459.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0450.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0452.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0454.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0455.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0456.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0461.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0457.jpg

[SJW]

Brutal. No pride in todays work.

Someone for sure owns a walmart skilsaw though.

[89s1]

This is the reason I installed my own kitchen cabinets/cupboards recently.

[kevie88]

OMG what the hell! That's ridiculous.

[That.Guy.S30]

interested in what builder this is...

[Heff]

Many 'builder trades' are wanna-be apprentices doing the same stuff day after day - without enough supervision.

Good on you for checking if it's your build. Make the builder fix it and deal with the trade.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
This is what you new-home buyers DON'T see....whats underneath all the shiny new tile, paint and floor coverings. This tub-deck construction was after THREE ATTEMPTS by the so-called "finishing carpenter" to get it right at my request. I mean really...is a tub deck THAT hard to construct?!?? My kid sister could do a better job.
The pictures also don't show that the tub was glued into place at over 3/4" out-of-square. They had to completely remove the tub. This is their "final product".

And now I'm supposed to make it look all straight and level?!!

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0458.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0444.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0459.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0450.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0452.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0454.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0455.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0456.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0461.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/IMG_0457.jpg


What builder?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by That.Guy.S30
interested in what builder this is...
Take your pick...I see this in all the major builders' homes. I work in about half a dozen of the larger builders. Entry to mid-level homes are built by the lowest bidders in every trade. So you're pretty much getting a home built by the cheapest of the cheap labour rates. Want to know how much I get paid for that jacuzzi? (because I'm "subbing" for this job, I don't control the rate..) A grand total of $105. Less the cost of glue. So maybe a net profit of about $75..and thats AFTER I've picked up and delivered the material, set, and grouted it, and returned to silicone. How much time do you think I'm gonna spend on that? Sad but true.


Originally posted by Heff
Many 'builder trades' are wanna-be apprentices doing the same stuff day after day - without enough supervision.

Good on you for checking if it's your build. Make the builder fix it and deal with the trade.
Not my build. I'm just one of the trades.
That IS fixed. It's as good as it's going to get. The truth of the matter is that within a year or two that tile will start to crack and fail. Builder will be long gone, or at the very least, extremely hard to get back to fix.

*edit*: Coupe....snip your quote. We don't need multiples of the same images.

[Chandler_Racing]

I'm curious on the builder too.

[spikerS]

you could always forward that to the home owner.

I know if I was building a house, I would LOVE to get this kind of info.

[big A]

Wouldn't that have been the framer?

Most Finish carpenters think they are too almighty to do rough carpentry. When they are really no better than a framer except they can't handle the cold or lift heavy things.
Am I the only one that understands Dave doesn't want to say who the builder is? They really are all the same unless you have huge money and pay for a custom built home.

It is just impressive that he has enough pride in himself to do the best he can(which I believe is quite good from pics i've seen) while not making much money during these slow months.

[Muji]

My father is not a "finishing carpenter", but it really looks like his handyman skills at work there. Now my mother looks after this side of the family work, she can do a better job than that crap from a "pro".

This is exactly why C_Dave45's house will always get a premium price on the market, he has a well trained eye and knows there is only one result acceptable. I have a friend who works in commercial construction/plumbing, he is always wondering if his standards are too high as his work is always done to a greater standard than that of his coworkers. It drives him nuts at work the fact there are clowns working and earning under the title of "professional". Some really need to seek out a new career, which career has a "who gives a shit" attitude?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by big A
Wouldn't that have been the framer?

Most Finish carpenters think they are too almighty to do rough carpentry. When they are really no better than a framer except they can't handle the cold or lift heavy things.
Am I the only one that understands Dave doesn't want to say who the builder is? They really are all the same unless you have huge money and pay for a custom built home.

It is just impressive that he has enough pride in himself to do the best he can(which I believe is quite good from pics i've seen) while not making much money during these slow months.

Thank you. Sadly, no this was a finishing guy. But I would never take a framer to do something like this. That is half the problem, builders and "carpenters" whether framers or finishers, think it can be just "rough framed".
Ideally it should be built with studs and 3/4" ply. A good finishing carpenter can build something like this within a half a day and it would be good enough to just apply paint. Mitred corners, glued and screwed, finished edges along outside edges, etc.
I've been in this trade for 28 years...I've never seen a framer who can do proper "finish carpentry". A certified, journeyman, old-schooled finishing carpenter is quite a different trade than a framer. Not too many framers would know how to "grain match, biscuit jointed, dove-tailed" raw lumber construction.
Sadly, today's tradesmen are nowhere near what their brothers were in the "olden days".

[project240]

Dave, why are you posting up my work?? LOL.

That's embarrassing.

Truthfully though, like you said, we see it constantly. I don't work at all in new builds, but I'm constantly in homes a couple years old fixing shit work like this, that is somehow passed off as complete.

I find myself constantly shaking my head, wondering how the hell someone who is supposed to be qualified can do a job like this and call it done.

Sad part is, I'm sure you see it constantly and I doubt this is even anywhere near the worst you've seen. I think I've got to start bringing a camera with to work... I've seen some pretty horrible work as well.

[Kona9]

Honestly Dave, I can see this puts you between a rock and a hard place. For the effort put forth to the payout at the end, I would just walk and let the builder know that the quality of work you provide will never be laid on sub standard, jerry rigged craftsmanship put together by a blind kid with tourettes.

Shit, that's like a Ferrari mechanic being forced to work on an old POS Rusted out Ford that got towed out of a Mclean Creek Park mud pit.

Buuuut, if you walk from one of these jobs, doesn't it kill your whole contract with said builder?

[project240]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

A certified, journeyman, old-schooled finishing carpenter is quite a different trade than a framer. Not too many framers would know how to "grain match, biscuit jointed, dove-tailed" raw lumber construction.
Sadly, today's tradesmen are nowhere near what their brothers were in the "olden days".

I got my start working with an older Romanian Cabinetmaker. He constantly laughed about today's construction methods... butt joints, brads, and glue instead of rabbits, dadoes, and half laps.

They just don't build things like they used to......

[Cos]

This is why I am buying a 1950's house and putting paint down.

[Heff]

Originally posted by project240

rabbits, dadoes, and half laps.

Take time, teaching and skill.
Some of the apprentice wannabe's working for builders in calgary only do circ-saw framing with whatever fastener they happen to have in their apron.

Not all - but builder's are not necessarily a good source of high-quality trades education. and they don't usually want to hire journeymen - too expensive...

It's kinda sad.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Cos
This is why I am building a 1950's house and putting paint down.

Whoah, you time travel now? :rofl:

50's houses aren't without their problems as well. I own a '59, and although the framing construction is awesome, there seemed to be no standard sizing for back then, lol. When we replaced the interior doors (incl. jambs), I had to have special orders for all 4 because of the weird jamb height/width dimensions. Then when I ripped out the old ones, the depth was way off as well, lol. I made it work, but it wasn't easy.

Don't even get me started on the 5 decades of morons fucking with the wiring too, and thinking they know how to build a basement :facepalm: (Duuurrrrrr, lets build a bathroom around the main electrical panel!!! We'll just install the shower right next to it!)

[Cos]

Whoops.... buying.... that is why I am buying.

Haha



Yeah I know what you mean. I am going to buy something and it will have its problems. I dunno I just find the area I am going to buy much nicer with better built houses but not without their problems I will admit.

[garnet]

LOL yet when i need to hire a 'finishing' helper, you'd be amazed how many guys want to argue with me that they are just as good 'finishing carpentry' because they are a framer

however, that doesn't even look good enough for a framing job, much less tile ready.....really, really sad!

i would also say we can't generalize just 'carpenters'.....i see as many issues with all trades, tile, carpentry, painting, you name it, there seems to be a general lack of pride in workmanship these days = truly sad

be it cabinet for built-in, trim millwork (pics) or a tub base, it "should" be with the same care

as a contractor, for my new home work the GC would have that torn out and redone completely, and like-wise for my own jobs, that would be totally unacceptable work




Originally posted by C_Dave45

I've never seen a framer who can do proper "finish carpentry"
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/jersturbo/Reno%20Pics/P_00572-Copy.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/jersturbo/Reno%20Pics/038.jpg

[big A]

I'm afraid to say that also not many finishing carpenters know how to "grain match, biscuit jointed, dove-tailed" raw lumber construction. I know of alot of piece work finishing carpenters that can't do much more than put their mitre saw on a 45. In the nicer homes the millwork is done by a Cabinetmaker who can do the mentioned skills.

[garnet]

LOL true enough those particular skills aren't necessary for the example of this thread (basic tub base)

doing finishing carpentry myself, i can say;
do i use a biscuit joiner? yes, for built-ins, shelving...
do i need to create dove tail joints? no, but could if needed
do i grain match wood? no, unless maybe side-by-side veneer sheets

most millwork in even new homes is paint grade now, finger-joint or mdf, but still the skill level "should" be better
it drives me nuts to see even basic trim work not cut to fit properly, gaps, etc etc

when i install crown molding, inside corners are cope-cut for a seemless fit.....how many guys even know how to do that? not many i think



Originally posted by big A
I'm afraid to say that also not many finishing carpenters know how to "grain match, biscuit jointed, dove-tailed" raw lumber construction. I know of alot of piece work finishing carpenters that can't do much more than put their mitre saw on a 45. In the nicer homes the millwork is done by a Cabinetmaker who can do the mentioned skills.

[big A]

^^^ Agreed I think this thread got quickly derailed, I just couldn't believe a finishing carpenter was contracted to do that job and then did a job shitier then a rookie Framer would have. Maybe if Dave puts pics of his finished product we will get back on track

I hope I didn't offend you garnet, you sound like you take pride just like Dave does. I would like to see more of your work.
I have never seen anyone cope cut, everyone just compound-mitres.

[88CRX]

Not suprised one bit!

Calgary is full of slack ass trades that couldn't give two shits about the quality of their work. Get in, get it 'done', get paid and run next door. Rinse and repeat.

[autosm]

When I read the title I expected to see bad crown mouldings or base boards.

That looks like it was done by the guy that cleans up the job site with material he found laying around?

I guess if you only get 105.00$ to do it, but the builder charges 4k for the tub......



:facepalm:

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by autosm
When I read the title I expected to see bad crown mouldings or base boards.

That looks like it was done by the guy that cleans up the job site with material he found laying around?

I guess if you only get 105.00$ to do it, but the builder charges 4k for the tub......



:facepalm:

The guy that built the deck is paid by the hour. It's ME, the tileguy, that gets the $105 to tile it. And yes, it looks like he just picked up scrap from outside to build it with.

[jefferson2]

C_Dave45 reminds me of this guy lol.

http://media.canada.com/b17a5268-e809-4db2-a84b-06fc4c00d03e/M1X00233_9.JPG

I think we should get you a Calgary TV show.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Looks like its cobbled together with some scraps last minute on a Friday afternoon.

[jzz30dk]

thats insane that it was left like that. take a little pride in the work your doing. im a cabinet/furniture maker and i know when i do a job i dont want anyone especially the other trades coming in after im done and saying WTF did this guy do. it sucks that things are just getting slapped together like this and people have no idea until its to late.

[89coupe]

So what builder is this????

[msommers]

The shit I saw while doing electrical during one summer convinced me I will never buy a new place.

That said, I know a couple who design and build homes. They're completely anal about everything, but I would imagine they aren't cheap either. Properly pays for itself in the end though ha.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by 89coupe
So what builder is this????

Does it really matter?

You can go into any builders homes and easily find as bad or worse.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by 88CRX


Does it really matter?

You can go into any builders homes and easily find as bad or worse.

Of course it matters.

...and no you can't.

[gram]

The sad part of this is that at the end of the day the house builders and the people building/buying the house are really allowing this to continue. If it were me putting 400-500k of my money in to a house I'd be in that house every day checking out what the contractors were doing. Sadly people like the OP (real contractors) are disappearing and instead most houses are left with this kind of "craftmanship" :(

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by 89coupe

...and no you can't.

Well lets see...I've worked in Jayman, Reidbuilt, Shane, Morrison, Broadview, Cedarglen, Heartland, Excel, Todays...and more.. and regularly see the same or worse. If you're buying a low to mid-range market house, this is what goes on regularly no matter who the builder is. So no, it doesn't matter which builder this particular job is..its just one of many examples of today's building standards.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by C_Dave45


Well lets see...I've worked in Jayman, Reidbuilt, Shane, Morrison, Broadview, Cedarglen, Heartland, Excel, Todays...and more.. and regularly see the same or worse. If you're buying a low to mid-range market house, this is what goes on regularly no matter who the builder is. So no, it doesn't matter which builder this particular job is..its just one of many examples of today's building standards.

If there is a good super running the show, a job like that would be ripped out and done over.

Why won't you say what builder it is?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by 89coupe


If there is a good super running the show, a job like that would be ripped out and done over.

Why won't you say what builder it is?
You think so huh? This comes from your experience in the construction biz? I work in over 100 new houses every year and work closely and know personally many site supers. How many have you worked with?
I'm not saying who the builder is because it's irrelevant. That very same carpenter could work for more than one builder. As I said it's an example of what's common. You don't see it as a customer. You only see the final product.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

You think so huh? This comes from your experience in the construction biz? I work in over 100 new houses every year and work closely and know personally many site supers. How many have you worked with?
I'm not saying who the builder is because it's irrelevant. That very same carpenter could work for more than one builder. As I said it's an example of what's common. You don't see it as a customer. You only see the final product.

My Dad has been in the construction business for 40 years. I've built many homes with him, from start to finish.

The builder is relevant, because the super for that builder should be aware of things like this so that particular carpenter is dealt with and possibly not hired again.

[OU812]

I'll chime in with my 2 cents. This is the problem with the calgary construction industry.

These guys all belong to a regional group and talk on a regular basis. The carpenter should not be working in this field in this city. His reputation should speak for itself and he should have worked himself out of work by now.

The builders dont give a shit however and just want product churned out asap to collect on the payment and move on.

Forget the builder name the tradesperson and let word of mouth do the rest.

That being said.....So can I get you to do my room for the price the builder is paying you??

:devil:

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by 89coupe


My Dad has been in the construction business for 40 years. I've built many homes with him, from start to finish.

The builder is relevant, because the super for that builder should be aware of things like this so that particular carpenter is dealt with and possibly not hired again.
So you've helped daddy with a few projects huh? You and you're $1,000 watches and manicured nails? :rofl: Building homes by a small independent contractor is a far cry from the large builders who do 750 homes a year. That's two houses a day. That's like comparing a guy who builds custom hotrods, to Chrysler pumping out 400,000 Neons a year. If you really think the way you and Dad build a house is the same way a large builder works then you're a misguided fool. This is the real world we work in. Both me and the super sat down over this project...laughed and shook our heads at the "skill level" of today's tradesmen. In the end...I'll spend a little more time on it..fix it up..and it'll get sold along with all the others, lookin all shiny and new come possession date.

[89coupe]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

So you've helped daddy with a few projects huh? You and you're $1,000 watches and manicured nails? :rofl: Building homes by a small independent contractor is a far cry from the large builders who do 750 homes a year. That's two houses a day. That's like comparing a guy who builds custom hotrods, to Chrysler pumping out 400,000 Neons a year. If you really think the way you and Dad build a house is the same way a large builder works then you're a misguided fool. This is the real world we work in. Both me and the super sat down over this project...laughed and shook our heads at the "skill level" of today's tradesmen. In the end...I'll spend a little more time on it..fix it up..and it'll get sold along with all the others, lookin all shiny and new come possession date.

LOL, oh what a false perception the internet portrays. Well hopefully you and the super are enjoying the laughs, hopefully the super is doing his job and sent the guy packing.

[TomcoPDR]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
My kid sister could do a better job.


Pics plz

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by 89coupe


LOL, oh what a false perception the internet portrays. Well hopefully you and the super are enjoying the laughs, hopefully the super is doing his job and sent the guy packing.

stop posting in this thread or go remove the 20 images you quoted 4 posts into the thread. thanks