Alberta government asks teachers to forgo wage increase

[Zewind]

http://ipolitics.ca/2011/01/18/alberta-government-asks-teachers-to-forgo-wage-increase-lower-sights-in-future/




EDMONTON – The Alberta government wants teachers to give up a 4.3 per cent wage increase already slated for later this year and to lower their sights for future pay hikes.

The Alberta Teachers’ Association website says the government has indicated that, in return, it would bring in limits on the time teachers would have to spend in the classroom.

It would also limit how many duties other than teaching that could be assigned to them, but would also prohibit lockouts or strikes.

There’s no formal proposal on the table and the website adds there wouldn’t be any deal unless every school board and teachers bargaining unit in the province agreed.

“It’s going to be a hard sell to everybody because it’s changing from the status quo,” said Education Minister Dave Hancock.

“I think the reaction has been generally cool, conservative,” said Dennis Theobald of the teachers’ association. “Teachers are willing to listen. Until we have a formal proposal, we’re asking people to withhold judgment.”

Teachers are in the middle of a five-year deal that guaranteed them regular pay increases in return for labour peace.

However, Hancock warned them last spring that there would be little money for upping wages and urged school boards to come up with ways to save money.

“Teachers have been betrayed,” said Liberal education critic Harry Chase, a former teacher.

He said the idea that teachers would gain by having their time in the classroom limited just won’t work.

“One of the crazy things about this, in order to provide teachers more preparation time, the government will have to hire more teachers. That’s an expensive proposition.”

Scott Hennig of the Canadian Taxpayers’ Federation was also skeptical of the plan, but suggested it wasn’t strong enough.

“This government hasn’t made any friends jacking up wages and jacking up spending,” said Hennig. “We would actually like to see it go a bit further and roll back the salaries by five per cent. I think the government’s actually being fairly generous in their starting position of a wage freeze.”


Seriously? WOW, just WOW :facepalm:

[desi112]

my wifes a teacher,

I can i tell you, they may reduce the "hours required" but it will not change the fact that she does 8-5 without a lunch break everyday, and 1hr at home.

no lunch due to having an "alternate" class, she likes to have an open door policy and has 1-kid no matter what the time.
Total bullshit.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Zewind

It would also limit how many duties other than teaching that could be assigned to them... but would also prohibit lockouts or strikes.

Lol, so they want them to skip the 4.3% raise (which, deducting a 2.5% inflation rate, means they're taking a PAY CUT), AND with the added bonus of never being able to strike?

Go on Stelmach PC's, just keep digging...

[roopi]

My wife's a teacher as well and for the amount of work teachers do (and shit they put up with) I think they are already underpaid.

I asked her what she thought of this news and she doesn't think it will happen. Teachers are already talking about how they won't let it happen so pretty much it sounds as if they would just strike/vote against this.

I don't even understand why people go into this career path. I've told my wife to quit numerous times because of the amount of work that is required. I guess some people really do care about the kids. :thumbsdow

[desi112]

Originally posted by roopi
My wife's a teacher as well and for the amount of work teachers do (and shit they put up with) I think they are already underpaid.

I asked her what she thought of this news and she doesn't think it will happen. Teachers are already talking about how they won't let it happen so pretty much it sounds as if they would just strike/vote against this.

I don't even understand why people go into this career path. I've told my wife to quit numerous times because of the amount of work that is required. I guess some people really do care about the kids. :thumbsdow

I would'nt say they are underpaid; I think they're paid fine, but the next contract should not take a negative step.

And sadly, its the union reps who get the full say and not a single teacher.

[1barA4]

I agree, they're not underpaid (majority of my friends are teachers, and they themselves say "we get paid a year's salary for 9 months of work! LOL!"...the months of vacation are part of the compensation package, it's why 5 of them said specifically was the reason they became teachers), but that's not the issue. The issue is they agreed to labor peace in exchange for the raises and the government is trying to screw them.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Teachers are paid pretty good, their salary maxes out around $85k and they get 8 weeks off in the summer + Christmas break + Easter/Spring Break + all professional days, etc. Stretch their salary over the time actually worked and they make well over $100k. Plus they get pension.

They put up with a lot of crap but they are paid VERY well in my opinion.

I think Jr high teachers have it by far the worst simply because of the students and the general douche baggery of kids that age.

Something like a highschool gym teacher would be the best/easiest job, or maybe elementary school. Or any grade before the kids realize their grades mean sweet F all until high school.

My mom is a teacher and the biggest inconvenience is family holidays. Every time they are off work, it's peak travel season.

[desi112]

Originally posted by 1barA4
I agree, they're not underpaid (majority of my friends are teachers, and they themselves say "we get paid a year's salary for 9 months of work! LOL!"...the months of vacation are part of the compensation package, it's why 5 of them said specifically was the reason they became teachers), but that's not the issue. The issue is they agreed to labor peace in exchange for the raises and the government is trying to screw them.

to some extent i agree with you, but a teacher gets ZERO personal days during the school year, each "personal day off" if not sick costs $200 from the teachers pocket, it definatly was not a deciding factor for my wife or any of her friends.

Its a very taxing job and having long runs without a personal day can be very fatiguing.

[desi112]

.

[1barA4]

Originally posted by desi112


to some extent i agree with you, but a teacher gets ZERO personal days during the school year, each "personal day off" if not sick costs $200 from the teachers pocket, it definatly was not a deciding factor for my wife or any of her friends.

Its a very taxing job and having long runs without a personal day can be very fatiguing.

My friends take lots of days for "an appointment" at no cost out of pocket (an admin or other teacher covers for them, no sub is brought in). The main exception is the shop teachers because they HAVE to get a sub (which is why that one never takes personal days/"appointment" days).

Teachers make a choice -- get more vacation than almost any other industry on the planet but that vacation is when the school year dictates. Alternative -- work a regular non-teacher job and take what few personal days you get and work all summer.

Working all summer while they are on a 45 day Contiki tour is very taxing, let me tell you (and I get a lot of vacation each year plus a week off at Christmas) :)

[max_boost]

Teachers deserve every penny they get and they should get their raise.

It's not just the students they deal with on a daily basis, the prep work, after hours, the parents, it's quite the job. I don't know any teacher who does it just for the two months off or for the money. It's for the love of teaching and helping students grow into individuals who can later contribute positively to society.

[CUG]

Yeah, why WOULD we spend money on educators here. :facepalm:

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by desi112

but a teacher gets ZERO personal days during the school year, each "personal day off" if not sick costs $200 from the teachers pocket, it definatly was not a deciding factor for my wife or any of her friends.


Hey, guess what? Most people DON'T get personal days, and if they do take a day off, that's without wages as well.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Teachers are paid pretty good, their salary maxes out around $85k and they get 8 weeks off in the summer + Christmas break + Easter/Spring Break + all professional days, etc. Stretch their salary over the time actually worked and they make well over $100k. Plus they get pension.

They put up with a lot of crap but they are paid VERY well in my opinion.

:werd:

The WORST is all of my teacher friends on Facebook whining in August, or after Christmas or spring break about how they have to go back to work.

I work 8 hour days TWELVE months of the year. I am on call 24/7 for 20% of the year, work tons of overtime and get only 4 weeks of holiday time.

Teachers have it good.

[1barA4]

Originally posted by max_boost
It's for the love of teaching and helping students grow into individuals who can later contribute positively to society.

All of the teachers I have personally surveyed are teachers for the compensation (vacation, pay, pension).

I'm not saying there aren't some out there but out of 10 teachers, some within their first 5 years teaching, some that have been teaching for 15 years, the rest in the middle,none of them do it for the "love of teaching" or to "improve the future".

That being said, they would all agree that the hardest part is the parents. There's a reason why a lot of schools have a "C" as the minimum grade they can give out -- you read that right, at some schools, they cannot even fail a student. And if the student just pisses around all day, and you give them that C, the parent comes storming in wondering why they don't have an A...and that their little angel is perfect and all that BS.

"No ma'am, your daughter set her desk on fire, can't spell her own name and is eating her own poop right now...this is grade 8 language arts...she gets the lowest mark I can give her."

"I don't see how that applies to giving her a bad mark! I misspell my own name all the time!"

[max_boost]

Well maybe because all my teacher friends are young and just starting out so they are working harder. Perhaps in 5 years they will fall into a regular routine and just go through the motions aka I don't give a crap as much as before mode.

:D

[l/l/rX]

serious?! minimum grade at some schools is a C?! fack that would of made life in school a lot easier. haha. jk-ish.

[desi112]

Originally posted by max_boost
Teachers deserve every penny they get and they should get their raise.

It's not just the students they deal with on a daily basis, the prep work, after hours, the parents, it's quite the job. I don't know any teacher who does it just for the two months off or for the money. It's for the love of teaching and helping students grow into individuals who can later contribute positively to society.

could'nt have said it better. Teaching is a very taxing job, I understand alott of you including myself work 12months a year, but we don't put up with children 8-10hrs a day.

[Kritafo]

everyone of my nieces classmates in their final year of University are becoming teachers for the summer off etc. NOT a single one I spoke to was hoping to make a difference in someone's life. It's all about the benefits of being a teacher.

I sat in my van waiting for my son to come out of school and watched some teen boy get the snot beat of him while 3 teachers looked on. I can't tell the teachers from the students..tattoos. piercing, outside smoking wearing shorts and slobby t-shirts. What a joke.

I have met plenty of teachers that are outright nasty.

I have seen plenty of the teachers at the two schools my kids are in peel in the parking lot 5 mins before school and leave before the bell is ringing. Let's see .....that is 8:00 am start 2:40 bell and a 45 min lunch. Doesn't add up to a full time job to me.

I am sure there are some really good teachers out there...I have met 1 outstanding kind teacher who did everything to help the kids. For her it was trying to make a difference. That was in the 11 years my kids have been in the system.

[kertejud2]

Here's a little snippet on Finland. While its not the article I originally read which is much better (I'll put it up if I can find it), it outlines one of the reasons why those albinos have seen a resurgence in their quality of education:


Here are a few highlights from Finland:

Competent teachers On all school levels, teachers are highly qualified and committed. Master’s degree is a requirement, and teacher education includes teaching practice. Teaching profession is very popular in Finland, and hence universities can select the most motivated and talented applicants. Teachers work independently and enjoy full autonomy in the classroom.

This is the ace. What isn’t even mentioned is that all teacher training and degrees are fully paid for by the government, making teaching a competitive and attractive profession. Endless research points to quality teachers in every classroom as the most crucial helper for students; Finland actually invests in making that happen. In the U.S.’s fragmented system, so many teachers enter the classroom with minimal training, heavy student load debt, and a sink-or-swim attitude from their school leaders. Naturally, many would-be competent teachers decide not to even bother. Finland doesn’t have a teacher turnover crisis; quite the contrary, they have a well-trained, highly talented corps of teachers. This is excellence— although I can already anticipate loud, insipid criticism from the American right about government-supported teacher training as a recipe for socialist indoctrination. We need to get over ourselves and realize that investing in teacher training is not optional for developing a sustainable, robust school system. We don’t have that now and it’s killing us.

http://teacherleaders.typepad.com/get_in_the_fracas/2010/02/we-need-finlands-school-system.html


While the quality of the teachers is indeed outlined, as is the popularity of becoming one, what is left out from the other article is that an increase in pay wasn't anything compared to the increase of respect teachers would see because of their profession. Let's face it, not many people care if you're a grade school teacher these days ('teach kids to colour and count, I can do that') but with th eincreased qualifications to become a teacher brought a new level of respect and panache which would in turn help attract quality people to become teachers.

People become lawyers despite their reputation and potential for the mundane because it can be lucrative. Teaching has a limit on how "lucrative" it can be but also has a similar lack of respect. A slightly better wage with a more positive look on the profession means better people go for the job, which leads to a better standard of education.


I'm of the sense that teachers and schools should have incredible investment, but I acknowledge that many teachers are useless (though with many its the system that can be blamed first). These people will spend more time with your kids through the week than the parent will, the desire to have the best people possible should be first and foremost and more people should want to be teachers as well. Why should they require Master's Degrees? Because I don't want history being taught by a gym teacher because they took some electives, if they have an MA in history they clearly have a passion for it and can use it to better teach the material. When you have somebody who's basically taking stuff from one book onto the blackboard (so to speak) its no wonder its considered a pointless and mundane class. "This happened, then this happened, then this happened" instead of "This happened because this happened and it has effects to this day...etc." The same can be said for math and science. There are people who teach math, and people who love math, one is going to be a better teacher.

An MSc. in Phys Ed to teach gym? Absolutely. They double as health teachers anyway, they should at least have an extremely in depth knowledge as to what they're talking about. Seems ridiculous and a waste, but so are most Phys Ed majors.

I could go on, because next to healthcare, education is the most important thing.

[ZenOps]

Seems fair to me. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but North America is on the edge of economic collapse.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/18/new.jersey.layoffs/index.html

Lots of states and cities are in trouble. Canada is doing allright, head above water. Alberta even better, but its still very prudent to cut any raises. Many US cities have already repealed pay to govt workers retroactively. Again, Canada isn't the US - but they are dragging us down with them.

[l/l/rX]

Originally posted by Kritafo

I sat in my van waiting for my son to come out of school and watched some teen boy get the snot beat of him while 3 teachers looked on. I can't tell the teachers from the students..tattoos. piercing, outside smoking wearing shorts and slobby t-shirts. What a joke.


Kind of old fashioned eh?

[CUG]

^ That's a good piece. I agree fully that few expenses should be spared in terms of education. It's the only thing that floats a nation above another.

[desi112]

Originally posted by Kritafo
everyone of my nieces classmates in their final year of University are becoming teachers for the summer off etc. NOT a single one I spoke to was hoping to make a difference in someone's life. It's all about the benefits of being a teacher.

I sat in my van waiting for my son to come out of school and watched some teen boy get the snot beat of him while 3 teachers looked on. I can't tell the teachers from the students..tattoos. piercing, outside smoking wearing shorts and slobby t-shirts. What a joke.

I have met plenty of teachers that are outright nasty.

I have seen plenty of the teachers at the two schools my kids are in peel in the parking lot 5 mins before school and leave before the bell is ringing. Let's see .....that is 8:00 am start 2:40 bell and a 45 min lunch. Doesn't add up to a full time job to me.

I am sure there are some really good teachers out there...I have met 1 outstanding kind teacher who did everything to help the kids. For her it was trying to make a difference. That was in the 11 years my kids have been in the system.

ur just as guilty as the teachers for not stepping in on the boy as a parent.

[mo_money2supe]

In reply to kertejud2's post, those who graduated from education from the U of C are in a sense master's students. The minimum for the U of C program is 3 years in an undergrad program PLUS the 2 years in Masters of Education. They do, however, start off with the CBE with a lower salary than those that have completed a full 4-year undergrad degree PLUS the 2-year Masters of Education. Not exactly the same system as Finland, but I'd rather my (future) children's teachers have their masters in teaching rather than specifically in a field of study. Case in point, take post-secondary professors compared to grade school teachers - who does a better job at actually "teaching" rather than just relaying the necessary information?

I'm not a teacher myself but my wife is and has been one with the CBE for 5 years now. Fortunately for our future children, she's actually one that cares for the future of kids.

[Kloubek]

I don't think this has anything to do with how hard the teachers' jobs are, or whether they are overpaid or not.

It has to do with something that was promised to them, and now retracted. That's a real kick in the teeth if you ask me, and I don't think anyone working at any position would appreciate being treated like that.

[desi112]

its pure bullshit

[1barA4]

Originally posted by Kloubek
I don't think this has anything to do with how hard the teachers' jobs are, or whether they are overpaid or not.

It has to do with something that was promised to them, and now retracted. That's a real kick in the teeth if you ask me, and I don't think anyone working at any position would appreciate being treated like that.

Back to the matter at hand -- Kloubek, absolutely.

Back to the off-topic discussion:
Using a best case scenario, a teacher has 2 degrees (an undergraduate, and an after-degree, their "masters" of teaching. I use quotes because that's a sore point with my friends, it being an "after" degree, not a "real" masters). Yes they top out at 85k with those 6 years worth of education, but a geotech in oil and gas makes 60-80ish depending on the company (less in small shops...much less!) with only a 2 year certificate from SAIT.

That's technically shit pay for the education....but you factor in the vacation, then it's spot on (if you think of the 85k as only being pay for 9 months of work).

[Kritafo]

Originally posted by desi112


ur just as guilty as the teachers for not stepping in on the boy as a parent.

I never said I didn't.

[Kritafo]

Originally posted by l/l/rX


Kind of old fashioned eh?

I don't know...my kids can't go to work with any piercings in or showing,. and my husband can't have tattoo's showing...why should the teachers be allowed?

Old Fashion...maybe...

[Supa Dexta]

LOL @

'kids aren't taught shit anymore/have it too easy/aducation system sucks'

+

"teachers aren't paid enough!"

[1barA4]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
LOL @

'kids aren't taught shit anymore/have it too easy/aducation system sucks'

+

"teachers aren't paid enough!"

They're not mutually exclusive items. :)

The education system does suck, thanks to parents who think kids should not fail and can do no wrong (ergo, schools that have minimum mark of C. Get a 0? C!).

Kids face the daunting task of ever-increasing amounts of knowledge to learn (compare curriculum now to the 50's. I'm pretty sure in the 50's the explanation for an eclipse was the Earth Dragon swallowing the sun), ever-increasing social pressures ("Look at my belly piercing and my raisins! Woohoo!") AND parents tend to work longer and harder now meaning they have even less influence on their lives. That and there are even more shitty parents out tehre now. When kids walk around in $1k worth of gear (iphone, coach purse, true religion jeans, uggs, etc.), you know that they have it "easy" in terms of material possessions.

....and teachers don't get paid enough to babysit the princes and princesses all this bad parenting creates.

[Unknown303]

Let us not forget that the government is just suggesting this at this time. They are not saying we are definitely doing this. And also the teachers union signed a 5 year contract. That's a long ass contract for a union to have. Plus let us not forget what has happened to the economy in the last 5 years. Sure it's shitty that they might have to break the agreement and not get the raise, but they are government workers are they not. If we are expecting the government to save money somewhere don't you expect someone to get hurt in the end to acquire it?

Don't get me wrong here I have teachers in the family and have always appreciated them, but 5 years ago the government probably thought nothing could ever go wrong and said hell year give them 4.5 for 5 or however the break down was. Once shit hit the fan I bet the government was hurting when they saw that they still had to dish out those increases and start hunting for cash elsewhere.

And sorry if I've just talked out my ass and given wrong numbers etc. Didn't put a tonne of time into this response.

[kertejud2]

zDZFcDGpL4U

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by l/l/rX


Kind of old fashioned eh?

Slobby and trashy is slobby and trashy. Case closed.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Unknown303
Let us not forget that the government is just suggesting this at this time. They are not saying we are definitely doing this. And also the teachers union signed a 5 year contract. That's a long ass contract for a union to have. Plus let us not forget what has happened to the economy in the last 5 years. Sure it's shitty that they might have to break the agreement and not get the raise, but they are government workers are they not. If we are expecting the government to save money somewhere don't you expect someone to get hurt in the end to acquire it?

Don't get me wrong here I have teachers in the family and have always appreciated them, but 5 years ago the government probably thought nothing could ever go wrong and said hell year give them 4.5 for 5 or however the break down was. Once shit hit the fan I bet the government was hurting when they saw that they still had to dish out those increases and start hunting for cash elsewhere.

And sorry if I've just talked out my ass and given wrong numbers etc. Didn't put a tonne of time into this response.

:clap: Well said. Everyone seems to forget teaching is a government job. Less cash to spend = cuts should be done throughout. Government employees have always traded in higher pay in return for job security. What the government promised in an economic boom should change accordingly with the state of the economy (taxes coming in). I bet if the economy was still booming, teachers would be demanding more. Sometimes you gotta take less.

[Cos]

.

[Darkane]

Teachers should get a lot more.

You guys are forgetting some major points:

1) The students parents ALWAYS blame the teachers - think of that unneeded stress

2) Students themselves are just stupid this day and age. Like fuck me no common sense

3) Kids think they're rough.

I know of a teacher who has had gun threats (Only to be also blamed by the parents .. Like what the fuck?), Almost had sexual "harassment" charges because a girl got a D. Shit like that, it actually happens.

Kids are useless these days, and I see the best examples ever!! I feel so, so, SO terrible for Fort. Mcmurray teachers. My god the puke kids here born and rasied in the McMurray bubble are fucking ridiculous.

[Cos]

.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by Darkane

2) Students themselves are just stupid this day and age. Like fuck me no common sense


I think this is as much to do with the system than it is the students. While its more an American problem (but its creeping into Canada bit by bit), the focus on standardized testing diminishes any need to think critically. If you're taught to pass a test, because that's what school's need (because if you have high test scores, you're a better school, you get more money), you're not really required to think about the subject and how you can apply the knowledge, you just need to know enough to pass the test. Most teachers don't want to teach this way, but they're forced to because the system requires it. When you start teaching kids how to pass a multiple choice test because it will increase their chances of passing, you've got a problem. That's not learning, that's a waste of time for everyone involved.

Teaching people to think is something school's do not do, because you can't really test for that. And if you can't test for it, then it can't possibly be important.

[Cos]

Originally posted by kertejud2
zDZFcDGpL4U

That is absolutely amazing. I have never thought of a school as a factory :eek:

[max_boost]

LUDELVR should give his 2 cent in this thread :D

[bleu]

Originally posted by kertejud2
zDZFcDGpL4U


Thanks for the share!

[Darkane]

Originally posted by kertejud2


I think this is as much to do with the system than it is the students. While its more an American problem (but its creeping into Canada bit by bit), the focus on standardized testing diminishes any need to think critically. If you're taught to pass a test, because that's what school's need (because if you have high test scores, you're a better school, you get more money), you're not really required to think about the subject and how you can apply the knowledge, you just need to know enough to pass the test. Most teachers don't want to teach this way, but they're forced to because the system requires it. When you start teaching kids how to pass a multiple choice test because it will increase their chances of passing, you've got a problem. That's not learning, that's a waste of time for everyone involved.

Teaching people to think is something school's do not do, because you can't really test for that. And if you can't test for it, then it can't possibly be important.

Good post.

We can blame parents then ;)

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by Feruk


:clap: Well said. Everyone seems to forget teaching is a government job. Less cash to spend = cuts should be done throughout. Government employees have always traded in higher pay in return for job security. What the government promised in an economic boom should change accordingly with the state of the economy (taxes coming in). I bet if the economy was still booming, teachers would be demanding more. Sometimes you gotta take less. A promise is a promise and a contract is a contract. If the teachers agree to renegotiate early, then fine. If they don't, then it'll just have to wait until the next contract is negotiated. IIRC, there's only one year left on the current contract anyway.

I think it's very unlikely that the teachers will agree. There are still a lot of teachers that agreed to the 5% rollback in the 80's under Klein and it took many years (factoring cost of living and inflation) to get that 5% back. They felt they were betrayed by the government and aren't going to be looking to do any gratuitous favours again.

And for those who say teaching is such an easy job and teachers are overpaid, my wife has a good response to that. She just smiles sweetly and says, "you know, you're probably right. You should change careers and get in on this too!" The excuses come fast and furiously then. It's not an easy job and I know that I couldn't do it.

[ekguy]

My sister (where I live) is a teacher...And honestly with the kids in alberta they deserve huge pay increases. My family has plenty of teachers in it and in many provinces. My sister is the most stressed of them all.

My dad, who is a retired college teacher, replaces teachers out here to get out of the house during the week and also says he's never seen a whinier bunch of retarded spoiled kids than here.

[speedog]

Go figure - a thread about teachers and almost all of the members posting have displayed very good grammar, good spelling and good punctuation/sentence structure.

On topic - the Alberta government should keep up with their end of the original contract that they signed.

[Kritafo]

Originally posted by ekguy
My sister (where I live) is a teacher...And honestly with the kids in alberta they deserve huge pay increases. My family has plenty of teachers in it and in many provinces. My sister is the most stressed of them all.

My dad, who is a retired college teacher, replaces teachers out here to get out of the house during the week and also says he's never seen a whinier bunch of retarded spoiled kids than here.

My sister who taught in autistic kids in ON for her entire career said the same when she went to a school her she noticed differences in the stress levels of teachers.

At the same time, my kids are made fun of for having summer jobs by there peers saying that is what parents are for. My son asked 150.00 jeans...it didn't come out of my pocket it comes out of his. He treats his things with respect, because he knows the value of a hard earned dollar. He knows how satisfying it is to save and buy. Many of his friends buy there lunch everyday because mom and dad are too lazy to get up and make it....or the kids themselves are too lazy.

The kids know the teachers hands are tied and they can't do shit to the kids. So the kids get the upper hand and they know it by Jr High, nobody fails, and there doesn't seem to be any consequences for anything anymore. Nice delinquents people are raising. I know 2 kids that are 15 that get high with their parents... wow. I am still blown away by that.

[Xtrema]

Problem with our school system:

1) Religion. There is no need for a separate school board for Catholics or special religious charter schools that leeches from the total funding.

2) New Schools. Don't waste $ on new schools until all existing schools are 90% utilized. Don't bring schools to the population, bring population to the schools.

3) Give total power to teachers. If parents don't like it, home school.

[911fever]

this won't fly

[Beerking]

I say fuck teachers.

They get lazier every year.

When my wife was a lifeguard at a local pool, teachers would take their class to the pool for a "field trip"...on a thursday!!! for 3 hour stints!!!

I'm pretty sure when I was a kid, a pool "field trip" was last on our minds, we were lucky to ever leave the school...mostly just to boring exhibits, you know EDUCATIONAL things.

I sure as hell do not want my TAX $ going to teach kids how to be spoiled little shits.

Make our kids the smartest bunches in the world, then you can have your fucking raise, until then you're lucky you're getting what you are....dicks.


P.S. I'm not jealous of teachers, I enjoy going on vacation when I want, during non-busy season for a hell of a lot less $ to boot.

[kertejud2]

I remember having to go swimming as a requirement, got all those stupid badges and everything. We went for a few hours the entire week, it was everybody's favourite time (in part because we did it at the Glenmore Pool and the "advanced" students could use the high dive).

I also remember going to Safety City, from which I retained considerably less than what I learned at the pool.

However the best would be all the crazy shit we did in PhysEd 10 (going curling and getting yelled at by the grizzled old guys trying to teach us "punks" how to respect 'the game').

[Type_S1]

I think teachers are overpaid for what they do. They get so much time off a year but bitch how hard kids are. Teachers now don't seem to even want to connect with kids, they don't give a shit and instead single kids out...kick them out of classes and are assholes. What would make the school system better is taking students feedback on teachers. I had some amazing teachers in highschool and then some that should be hung for the shit they said and did to students. If you get these teachers out of the system kids will be a lot happier in class and learn more from an active teacher. I have 4 or 5 teachers in my family and to be completely honest the ones who bitch they don't get paid enough etc etc. I would never want to teach me because they have bad attitudes about life and can guarantee they make some students lives hell.

Just my input. Teachers need to be held accountable for how they treat students and how competent they are but our education system fails to do this.

[captain134]

Originally posted by sputnik


:werd:

The WORST is all of my teacher friends on Facebook whining in August, or after Christmas or spring break about how they have to go back to work.

I work 8 hour days TWELVE months of the year. I am on call 24/7 for 20% of the year, work tons of overtime and get only 4 weeks of holiday time.

Teachers have it good.

Just wondering if you went to uni for 6-7 years for your job?

[A790]

Arguing with a fool is pointless. If you waste your time arguing with a fool you end up looking just as foolish.

There are a lot of fools in this thread.

[roopi]

Originally posted by A790
Arguing with a fool is pointless. If you waste your time arguing with a fool you end up looking just as foolish.

There are a lot of fools in this thread.

:thumbsup:

[Unknown303]

Originally posted by dexlargo
A promise is a promise and a contract is a contract. If the teachers agree to renegotiate early, then fine. If they don't, then it'll just have to wait until the next contract is negotiated. IIRC, there's only one year left on the current contract anyway.

I think it's very unlikely that the teachers will agree. There are still a lot of teachers that agreed to the 5% rollback in the 80's under Klein and it took many years (factoring cost of living and inflation) to get that 5% back. They felt they were betrayed by the government and aren't going to be looking to do any gratuitous favours again.

And for those who say teaching is such an easy job and teachers are overpaid, my wife has a good response to that. She just smiles sweetly and says, "you know, you're probably right. You should change careers and get in on this too!" The excuses come fast and furiously then. It's not an easy job and I know that I couldn't do it.

I see the contract is a contract, I'm union after all, but there is a really good chance that if they don't come so some arrangement now that come next contract negotiations the government could be looking to make some really really low offers. Going through a recession getting 4.3 each year is a fair bit compared to a lot of other organizations.

[1barA4]

Originally posted by Cos

People should teach to be a teacher

This is what I used to think.
Then my friends became teachers and I got to know many of their colleagues.

Now I know differently (like I said there are shining examples out there, like some of the teachers I had growing up, but I have yet to meet one since).

And, if AB teachers cry about being underpaid, did they forget they are in the province where teachers make among the top wages (compared to other provinces)? My brother's hoarder manatee wife has a masters in American History, and an education degree, and made sub-30k a year in New Hampshire -- when she used to work, she lamented how she wished she could make close to as much as AB teachers....


Originally posted by Cos

Now if your friends go to school at 7:55 for an 8:00am start and leave at 3:35 to go home and dont do fuck all, I can see how they have a slack job. I hate to say this but if that is them they are shit teachers and are the reason they had to do that two year after degree.


Depends on your definition of fuck all. They do coaching (in fact, the piss and moan about teachers with kids who just bail on it saying "I got a kid!") and stuff like that to get that obligation out of the way but none of them espouse the "I teach because I care and I care because I teach" quality, however they do their jobs and reap the benefits.

[msommers]

The grass is always greener...

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be a teacher, especially in these days. I foresee teachers who start out very eager to teach become inevitably jaded with all the bullshit they have to put up with, day in and day out. The value out of education is already diminishing, likely because of dollars and cents. And people complain they get paid too much, they don’t give a shit, they love holidays. Walk a mile in their shoes.

I took swimming lessons in elementary at Lindsey Park, I don’t understand what you’re complaining about. Is learning how to swim a useless skill? Use your head. I’m actually surprised kids are even allowed to do that anymore or field trips in general. The permission forms were getting crazy when I was in school and that was quite a few years ago.

Our education and healthcare systems are going in the shitter. I would have no issue increasing my taxes if the money was responsibly spent. Personally I don’t see that ever happening either.

Oh Alberta, how can you have so much money and piss so much of it away. :(

[roopi]

Originally posted by 1barA4


This is what I used to think.
Then my friends became teachers and I got to know many of their colleagues.

Now I know differently (like I said there are shining examples out there, like some of the teachers I had growing up, but I have yet to meet one since).

And, if AB teachers cry about being underpaid, did they forget they are in the province where teachers make among the top wages (compared to other provinces)? My brother's hoarder manatee wife has a masters in American History, and an education degree, and made sub-30k a year in New Hampshire -- when she used to work, she lamented how she wished she could make close to as much as AB teachers....

Alberta teachers do make more than any other province. This doesn't mean that they should take a pay decrease/lose an agreed upon increase. Alberta has the second highest average salary by province in Canada (per family) only behind NWT (?) so does this mean everyone's salary in Alberta (government employees) should be rolled back to be even with the rest of the country?

[msommers]

Not only that but consider the cost of living in Calgary.

[1barA4]

Originally posted by roopi


Alberta teachers do make more than any other province. This doesn't mean that they should take a pay decrease/lose an agreed upon increase. Alberta has the second highest average salary by province in Canada (per family) only behind NWT (?) so does this mean everyone's salary in Alberta (government employees) should be rolled back to be even with the rest of the country?

Read my other responses, I have never said they should lose an agreed upon increase, so I don't know where you're getting your strawman argument from.

I'm countering the "AB teachers are underpaid" comments which is mutually exclusive from their right to get what was agreed upon.

[1barA4]

Originally posted by msommers

I’m actually surprised kids are even allowed to do that anymore or field trips in general. The permission forms were getting crazy when I was in school and that was quite a few years ago.


The absolute gayest part of a litigious society is the death of field trips. The whole reason I am enthusiastic about skiing and snowboarding is I got to do that starting from grade 4 thanks to school.

Now, I don't think any schools allow ski trips anymore, at least according to my friends (catholic board)

[Wrath]

My Wife is a Teacher.....Her first year she tried HARD Arrived @ work at 8 left @ 10pm. Tried to make learning special and interesting. Designed special programs tried to make learning fun .........the result most kids didn't care..parents cared even less..in fact they complained to admin because their kids were getting lower marks (because my wife was actually marking things and evaluating the work of her students) She noticed most kids were generally 1-2 years behind were they should have been (as a result of the "we don't hold kids back anymore" mentality) She got flack from all sides......AND then she had no idea how challenging having kids with FAS and ADHD intergrated into the classes was going to be. (most of these parents gave up on their kids long ago and use school as Free Day care)

She got burned out after 1 year and really started questioning her chioce of career.

Also a 1st year teacher with 5 years of university (required to teach High School) makes around 45,000 a year. Try to live in calgary and pay for 20K in student loans on that salary.

Also...The summers off argument is crap.....Teachers stay for usually 1-2 weeks AFTER and BEFORE student arrive and leave (students leave school June 20 or so...teachers aren't off until the 30 or so.....Students arrive Sept 1... teachers are there August 20 or so) so really teachers get July and half of august. I get 4 weeks @ my new job and I just started. Also professional days are for teachers to prepare....and they are in school (not off as somebody posted in this thread somewhere) My wife said she would give up the summers to be able to take time off when ever she wanted....and yesit does cost you 200 a day if you want to go away during the school year and even then it is rarely approved by admin

[1barA4]

Originally posted by Wrath

Also a 1st year teacher with 5 years of university (required to teach High School) makes around 45,000 a year. Try to live in calgary and pay for 20K in student loans on that salary.


Even at 6 years (top of matrix) I believe it's only 48 or 50k. It takes something like 7 years of teaching to hit the 85k (top rung if you have 6 years of education), so absolutely, it's a long road. At about 4 years in, a teacher with 4 years of education is roughly at 60, with 6 years education, roughly 70k, but that's a good chunk of time making subpar wages (in general).

Leave a week late/back early? I guess that depends on the school. At high school level, in between proctoring the finals, you can do your cleanup (though the back a week early holds true for most schools if not all). My two most-traveled friends leave on their tours the day the school year lets out (as they do their cleanup during finals).

I too get equivalent of 4 weeks off, plus a week at christmas, but there are professions that get only the minimum 2 weeks off a year (4 weeks is only the norm in O&G it seems...or minimum lol).

[max_boost]

There are issues with every job but I'm always going to support teachers. I've seen it first hand the stress involved and perhaps it's that exposure that I will always sympathize with their position. Yes it is part of the battle and it's easy to say, well don't do it. It's mentally and physically draining going into work everyday and dealing with kids. It only takes 1 bad apple to kill it for you and you have to see this apple 5 days a week for 10 months. :nut:

The English program is highly competitive. I believe the entry is a 3.4GPA

4 years of undergrad. 2 years of Masters of Teaching at U of C.

6 years of education. Starting salary at $60K. Pay union fees, taxes etc.

Yes it is so easy and so worth it. :dunno:

[roopi]

Originally posted by 1barA4


Read my other responses, I have never said they should lose an agreed upon increase, so I don't know where you're getting your strawman argument from.

I'm countering the "AB teachers are underpaid" comments which is mutually exclusive from their right to get what was agreed upon.

I was just quoting your response to confirm that in fact they are paid the highest in the country.

The balance of my statement was just a response to the fact that they are paid the highest in the country should not matter in what they are paid.

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by 1barA4
And, if AB teachers cry about being underpaid, did they forget they are in the province where teachers make among the top wages (compared to other provinces)? My brother's hoarder manatee wife has a masters in American History, and an education degree, and made sub-30k a year in New Hampshire -- when she used to work, she lamented how she wished she could make close to as much as AB teachers....Comparing our system to one that is completely broken isn't fair. Many US states have their priorities completely messed up and their teachers are desperately underpaid. Ask yourself how you are going to attract quality talent to do a job when you pay them amounts that leave them below the poverty line?

The US education system in many areas is largely one where there is publicly funded education that is terrible - graduation rates are awful, teachers are unqualified, and the system is seriously underfunded; and there is a private system that provides decent quality schools at a cost to the consumer. The result is that the poor (with rare notable exceptions) are kept ignorant and poor, and the middle class spends a large proportion of their income ensuring that their children 'have a chance' and they receive an education largely comparable to our system, and the rich, well the rich do what they always do, they pay for the best, receive the best, and their children have a major competitive advantage compared to the other groups entering the workforce. The benefit goes to the rich - they pay less tax, since there is less service provided in general as people abandon the public systems, and they get to maintain the status quo with them on top. The middle class are pushed further down towards poverty with all of the expenses placed on their shoulders for ensuring that their children have the right opportunities, all while paying taxes to fund the public system they don't use at the same time.

This is why public education should be defended in Canada, it's already visible in our public system in Alberta what the effects of allowing large numbers of private schools are: The public system ends up carrying the children with all of the problems: ADHD, FAS, Behaviour, etc. And the private schools don't take those children. The public system then has to use its diminishing resources to address these students with greater needs, leading to the remaining children having less resources directed to them. If this is allowed to continue there will come a tipping point where everyone who cares about their children and can beg, borrow or steal the amount necessary to pay for private schools will abandon ship on the public system and burden themselves with greater costs, and all of the people who can't afford private schools will just be fucked.

[1barA4]

Originally posted by dexlargo

This is why public education should be defended in Canada, it's already visible in our public system in Alberta what the effects of allowing large numbers of private schools are: The public system ends up carrying the children with all of the problems: ADHD, FAS, Behaviour, etc. And the private schools don't take those children. The public system then has to use its diminishing resources to address these students with greater needs, leading to the remaining children having less resources directed to them. If this is allowed to continue there will come a tipping point where everyone who cares about their children and can beg, borrow or steal the amount necessary to pay for private schools will abandon ship on the public system and burden themselves with greater costs, and all of the people who can't afford private schools will just be fucked.

Awesomely worded argument (sorry to snip just the end of it).

[Beerking]

Originally posted by msommers


I took swimming lessons in elementary at Lindsey Park, I don’t understand what you’re complaining about. Is learning how to swim a useless skill? Use your head. I’m actually surprised kids are even allowed to do that anymore or field trips in general. The permission forms were getting crazy when I was in school and that was quite a few years ago.


LOL, they are not there for swimming lessons. They splash around in the wave pool and jump around in the hot tub. My wife and her colleagues had first hand experience with this shit.

The teachers take them there, dump them off and expect the lifeguards to babysit them.

My wife asked a kid one time "Why are you here and where is your teacher?"
-"Here because its fun and I don't know where our teachers went"

REALLY??? No wonder were all fucked when we are seniors and left to be governed by these shits. Best case scenerio is 2012 comes true.:facepalm:

[Cos]

.

[Killa_Kam]

So our tax dollars can pay a Enmax CEO $2.7 Million a year and buy him out for a $4.6 Million Package!!!:whipped: But we cant pay our teachers more for all the shit they go through on a daily basis:dunno:, wow our goverment is f$%Kin
Redonkulous!!!

[dexlargo]

To be fair, my wife is a teacher, and while she pays something like that into her pension, there is additional money that is also paid into the pension by the school board, so it isn't just her deduction that funds the pension.

[Cos]

.

[Everlast]

Originally posted by Killa_Kam
So our tax dollars can pay a Enmax CEO $2.7 Million a year and buy him out for a $4.6 Million Package!!!:whipped: But we cant pay our teachers more for all the shit they go through on a daily basis:dunno:, wow our goverment is f$%Kin
Redonkulous!!!

Kind of off topic here but your tax dollars didn't pay for shit.

ENMAX netted 2.1 billion, and net earnings of ~142 million.
They then pay out dividends to the city of Calgary 30 million or 30% of net earnings, which ever is higher.

In 2007 ENMAX paid the city $50 million in dividends and profits/payments have been increasing for the past 4 years after hiring Holden. Your taxes to the city is reduced because of this company and it's CEO.

[silviak91]

My friends mom is a teacher she get $97000 a year there are doing fine .:facepalm:

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Cos


I agree but most pensions I have seen (utility world)

A lot of pensions are like this. In my experience, I've seen more companies doing $for$ matching, then actually giving you money on top of your salary, for free.

My job will match up to 5% of my wages, but I have to put in the 5% to see it. My wife's company does the same.

I find it kind of funny how many people in this thread are saying "Well teachers ONLY get this, and that", when it's about the same as my career, and you don't hear anyone complaining on my behalf :rofl:

This is the best one yet:


Originally posted by Wrath


Also a 1st year teacher with 5 years of university (required to teach High School) makes around 45,000 a year. Try to live in calgary and pay for 20K in student loans on that salary.


I left school $20k in debt, and only made $28k/year. God forbid you don't just walk into a dream job, and have to earn it.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by kertejud2
zDZFcDGpL4U

I love the part about deterioration of divergent thinking as we I get older. I actually had this observation last week when I was watching my friends' dayhome kids play.

Say for example that you're playing with a giant toy aircraft carrier (which is what the kids were playing with when I was watching). A 'mature' person would be playing with the idea aircraft landing and the normal, munudane activities of what we think happens on an aircraft carrier (whether we know what that is or not).

However, when you watch young children play with the same toy, they have no sense of what's correct and incorrect. So you'll see all kinds of play situations where an adult would think to themselves "there weren't any dinosaurs on aircraft carriers" or "why would an astronaut be riding a pony off the control tower of an aircraft carrier?"

Neil deGasse Tyson brought up a pretty interesting point that science and abstract/creative thinking are not mutually exclusive because scientists need that sort of creative thinking to push the limit of what we know. In other words, how do we know it's not possible until we think of it and try it?

Unfortunately, as Robinson and Tyson have pointed out, our education system focuses so much on the academic and marginalized creativity which I think is holding back the kind of innovative thinking that is hurting our generation and future generations.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by sexualbanana

Unfortunately, as Robinson and Tyson have pointed out, our education system focuses so much on the academic and marginalized creativity which I think is holding back the kind of innovative thinking that is hurting our generation and future generations.

I wouldn't really agree 100% with that. If you look at history, we probably have more artistic people now, per capita, then we ever have. School may focus on the academic, but the artistic thrive until they have to start paying the bills (post education). Even then, true artists will suck it up, and be that "starving artist".

So it's not educations fault, it's the reality of life after that.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


I wouldn't really agree 100% with that. If you look at history, we probably have more artistic people now, per capita, then we ever have. School may focus on the academic, but the artistic thrive until they have to start paying the bills (post education). Even then, true artists will suck it up, and be that "starving artist".

So it's not educations fault, it's the reality of life after that.

True. I'll agree that our the CBE's use of specialty schools (sports, arts, independent, etc) is commendable.

My reference (and I wasn't clear on this at all, so that's my fault) was more towards what I've read about the American education system where there have been movements to cutback on fine arts programs in public schools because they were considered non-essential.