HT amps?

[SOAB]

it seems as though there are a few audiophiles here so i thought i'd get some local input.

i'm looking to use my HT system to its full potential without breaking the bank. i'm not even close to having the "beyond baller" status :D

lets start with my current set-up:

Pioneer VSX-21 TXH
Polk RTi 10 front (300w)
CS10 center (125w)
M20 surrounds (150w)
PSW 505

i currently have the fronts bi-amped with the rear-surrounds from the AVR. everything has been pieced together slowly through sales or good deals.

i'd like to get the best out of my current set-up by adding a 5-channel amp or 2 - 2 channel amp and let my AVR run my center.

i've been thinking about the Emotiva XPA-2 for the fronts and the UPA-2 for the surrounds but i'm open to other ideas.

i'm not even sure where to get mid-priced amps in town...

any suggestions as to what would be ideal in my situation?

[SOAB]

maybe this one and then bi-amp the fronts?

http://emotiva.com/upa7.shtm

[Mitsu3000gt]

Emotiva makes awesome stuff for the VAST majority of users. The only people who don't like it are the guys who bought more expensive stuff and need to validate their purchase.

Unless you're playing at some fairly huge volume levels, I personally doubt you would tell a difference by moving from the VSX21 to separates for amplification. If you do like it really loud, more headroom can never hurt, but again I'm not convinced you would notice a significant difference, or at least a difference worth the price of several separates. That's up to you to decide I guess.

The VSX21 has a pretty good amp section, and Pioneer rates their power properly with all channels driven.

Personally, sometimes I can tell the difference between separates and a receiver, sometimes I can't. Depends on volume levels, the speaker, etc. Doing A/B comparisons with this sort of product is difficult. If you have a bunch of big, inefficient, speakers running all out in a big action movie, you're going to want some good headroom. If you have some nice efficient speakers and a high end receiver, I don't think 99% of people could tell a difference.

Anyways, that is my opinion, YMMV based on how you hear things.

[Revhard]

I purchased an Emotiva XPA-2 to help bi-amp my Studio 100's, as they are a tough load on any receiver. In the bass regions, the impedance is nearly 2 ohms in spots, with lots in the 3-4 ohm range. You average receiver with 100watts is not built to deal with this.
So, I had my Harman Kardon Sig.2.1 also, and decided to vertically bi-amp the studios. This would in theory give them 400w/speaker to work with. 100w for the tweeter, and 300w for the bass/midrange drivers.
The effect was worth it, for sure. The xpa-2 is rated to easily deal with 4 ohm loads, at just over 400watts (measured, not claimed).
The speakers really liked the upgrade, and so did my ears. Well worth the $1000. The power that the xpa-2 delivers is impressive. It can drive the studio 100's to over 110db without any clipping or issues. It does however pull a bunch of amps, as much as 7 according to the meters on my power conditioners/surge protectors.
The xpa series is a nice step up in power over the upa series which is losing some models asap.
If I were to do it again, I would get Red Dragon 500w monoblocks just to run the bass in my 100's. They are class D ICE amps, so are much more efficient, and alot smaller. Have a look at them, good value.

[mslbebiz]

I have to agree with Mitsu3000gt here, doubtful you'll even notice any difference with a change in amplification in this set-up.

Money would be MUCH better invested IMO, assuming this is mainly your HT set-up, in 1-2 more subs for a multi-sub set-up, room treatments, larger screen (ie projector for instance), or upgrading your speakers.

If you're dead-set on changing the amplification, go with separate amps through your receivers pre-outs. I really like the 500w Behringer A500 amps for bang for the buck ($250-$300), or look at some of the Crown stuff. Pro audio gear is where most of the best deals, and best sound can be found.

Here's a link to that particular amp:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/A500.aspx

Good luck, and have fun!

[Revhard]

Yeah, have a look at your speakers impedance curve to see if there are any gains to be had. The behringer amps are good value, especially the ones mentioned without the crazy loud fans.
Never even looked at your sub. That is where I would start.
You should have at least a pair of subs, preferably the same model.
You have a ton of room for improvement there. For the price of a decent amp, you can get a good budget Internet Direct sub.
I would focus on SVS, HSU for less money, Epik,Rhythmic,etc.
I think the best buy in that category for looks and performance is the SVS pb13-ultra. Very nice looking sub, great performance.
The rosenut is on sale, and is a very nice finish.
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm
My paradigm stuff is on the same finish (same name, same look, different companies will have slightly varying veneers)
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p288/9bells/audio/IMG_9508.jpg
If you have the scratch, but 2 now, or just one and another later. The difference will blow you away.

[SOAB]

The wife has already ixnayed the idea of getting another sub until we move into a bigger place. :(

i have a 60" flatscreen wall-mounted and thats about the biggest screen i can have given the seating distance available.

i'm sure i'll end up getting better speakers but this is what i've got for now. i figure that th Emotiva XPA-2 is a pretty good 2 channel amp that i could use for years to come, even after i upgrade my speakers.

[SOAB]

just looking at the webpage for the SVS pb13-ultra and all my speakers total cost me just over half of what that sub is worth :nut:

i've looked at some of the HSU subs and they get good reviews from avsforums as well. especially the VTF-15H sub and they're less than half the price of the SVS...

[mslbebiz]

SVS has a Canadian distributor now at http://sonicboomaudio.com/

Also, with a good multi-subs set-up the subs don't have to be huge or expensive subs. I think it was Geddes that theorized and implemented the 3 sub set-up, using different locations and planes in the room for optimal sound, and the result is amazing even if you use a couple cheap subs along with one good one.

For the money if you can't do another sub right now or replace your speakers, you'd likely get the bets bang for the buck with room treatments. Even the worst set-up can sound good in a well treated room.

I just don't see any point in upgrading an amp in this set-up as it won't have any real benefits. I'd rather see you put the money towards better speakers for at least the front array to start as that can make a profound difference. Not that your speakers are bad, but from a reference level HT speaker perspective they leave much to be desired. Trust me, there's nothing like a theater that can easily reach and play and reference levels for dynamics and realism.

My personal man-cave uses a front projector with 90" screen, multiple sub set-up, Pioneer receiver as pre-amp and 3 Behringer A500 amps to power M&K S-125 pro audio studio monitors - like the M&K's that they mix many award winning movies and TV shows on like LOTR, Lost, King Kong, The Incredibles, etc.

I mention this because BY FAR the biggest difference in this system was accomplished when I changed to the better M&K speakers, and I've tried many others.

[Loose]

I owned an Emotiva USP-1 and XPA-2. They were great. I used them in my 2ch rig, and moved them to the HT when I got some other stuff. The XPA-2 was a nice step up, but I would prefer to have an 5 or 7 channel amp down there. The Emotiva stuff is very stout, and I would have no hesitation to go with a lower power model. They are no joke, especially in an HT application where your main speakers are running high pass.

Other stuff I've had, or got for my friends include:
HSU STF-1: cheap, but only good for small rooms
HSU VTF3-mk2: good sq, pretty loud
SVS PB12 NSD: Nice, but I prefer my VTF3
SVS PB13 Ultra: Oh my god I thought the house was going to fall apart. Unreal everything. What a beast.
Emotiva LPA-5 (I forget the name, but it was basically a UPA-5 before the UPA-5 existed): Awesome little amp, really woke up the systems dynamics and clarity.

Looking at your list of equipment, I can say that the biggest upgrade you will get is your sub. One of my friends has the same one, and it doesn't even scratch the performance of a "real" sub. If you are set on an amp, get the UPA-7. You do NOT need an XPA-2.

I like HSU, but they dropped their Canadian distributor. I recommend buying the best SVS you can. They are great, and the owner is good to deal with.

If you have any questions, fire away.

[Loose]

Don't walk, run:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/215850-hsu_vtf3_mk_2/

[Loose]

here was my Emo gear

[SOAB]

HA! if you think my sub is sub-par, you should see what i had before... :rofl:

i guess i'll be spending some more time saving more money.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I tried to take the SVS route for a sub, went as far as buying one and shipping one back. If you've got a little extra money for the better Paradigm subs they blow the SVS stuff out of the water. I was even able to do some direct comparisons. The subs I had were the Paradigm Servo 15, Paradigm SUB12, and SVS PC-12 ultra.

Also just a comment on your seating distance, how far away are you? With HD and especially 1080p content these days, all the old seating distance rules go out the window. I sit 5-6ft from a 74" projection screen and I could easily be closer.

If I were you, I'd be looking at a projector, better subs, or room treatments before even thinking about separate amps. You will notice those things WAY more.

[SOAB]

5-6' from a 74" screen is way too cloe imo.

I sit about 10' from my tv and I think its perfect.

A projector is out of the question. I just don't like sitting in really dark rooms to watch a sitcom or sports.

There is no way I'm spending upwards of $3k for a sub. Like I said, I'm not even close to being a baller.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by SOAB
5-6' from a 74" screen is way too cloe imo.

I sit about 10' from my tv and I think its perfect.

A projector is out of the question. I just don't like sitting in really dark rooms to watch a sitcom or sports.

There is no way I'm spending upwards of $3k for a sub. Like I said, I'm not even close to being a baller.


I don't have anywhere near $3k to blow on a sub either. The Paradigm SUB12 is $~1600 and blows the doors off the $1200 SVS 12" sub.

[old&slow]

You can get the VTF-15 delivered to http://www.attheborderstorage.com/Sweetgrass_Parcel_Storage.html

for $1018...and $43 gst back to Canada.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/audio/2011/02/test-report-hsu-research-vtf-15h-subwoofer

[Revhard]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
I tried to take the SVS route for a sub, went as far as buying one and shipping one back. If you've got a little extra money for the better Paradigm subs they blow the SVS stuff out of the water. I was even able to do some direct comparisons. The subs I had were the Paradigm Servo 15, Paradigm SUB12, and SVS PC-12 ultra.

Also just a comment on your seating distance, how far away are you? With HD and especially 1080p content these days, all the old seating distance rules go out the window. I sit 5-6ft from a 74" projection screen and I could easily be closer.

If I were you, I'd be looking at a projector, better subs, or room treatments before even thinking about separate amps. You will notice those things WAY more.

Interesting. How was the sub12 better? The guys who buy ID subs often make comments on how they are incredible value, yet rarely have they had a quality retail sub as comparison. I can tell you that I have personally owned 12" subs from a variety of companies, and the sub 12 puts them all to shame. The Mirage BPS 400, Paradigm PW2200 v1 &2, David D-sub, Nuance,
Sound Dynamics, and Energy.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Revhard


Interesting. How was the sub12 better? The guys who buy ID subs often make comments on how they are incredible value, yet rarely have they had a quality retail sub as comparison. I can tell you that I have personally owned 12" subs from a variety of companies, and the sub 12 puts them all to shame. The Mirage BPS 400, Paradigm PW2200 v1 &2, David D-sub, Nuance,
Sound Dynamics, and Energy.

Sounds like you've had a similar experience.

Anyways, I researched everything to death as I normally do, but it was impossible to demo a ID sub without buying one for myself. SVS has a good return policy so I went for it. The more I listened to it, the less I was impressed. It couldn't fill a large room very well, and even at less than half gain, I could get the thing to "chuff" and bottom out (clunking noises). It just seemed like it had very little headroom. It also sounded muddy in comparison to the better Paradigm subs.

Compared to the SUB12, the SUB12 has a much more visceral impact, sounds WAY tighter, and hit a lot harder. It has oodles of headroom (over double the power if I recall), and is built better. Granted it's a more expensive sub, it isn't THAT much more money and you get a lot more. It had that hit-you-in-the-chest, quality bass that I was looking for - the SVS could not deliver on that front.

Even the 10 year old Servo 15 was better than the SVS sub, but it has a 3" larger woofer so it isn't a very good comparison. The SVS compared MOST closely to the Paradigm Ultracube 10 - they sounded hardly any different, and the SVS was about 8 times larger lol.

I did hours and hours of various testing with movies, test CD's, etc. etc. I spent lots of time talking to the boys at SVS as well to try and optimize everything for comparison.

This is the third time I've tried to give something other than Paradigm a chance, and been disappointed. That applies to their speakers and their subs. For my personal tastes at least, Paradigm just can't be beat unless you want to spend like 4X the money.

I gave SVS a very fair chance, and SVS even went as far as to send me a new control board for my sub to eliminate the chance of it being defective. I have only good things to say about their customer service, I just wasn't happy with the product.

I also did all my testing without using the PBK calibrator, after which the difference was absolutely night and day, leaving all the other subs I had in the dust completely, based on my testing.

[Revhard]

Thanks for the in-depth answer.
I really haven't been able to make the sub 12 wimper.
I have the system up higher than anybody should listen, and it
Just pounds away. The combo of the sub 12 and brand new Studio 100's
With over 400w each is disturbingly clean and clear at those levels.
The Emotiva pulls alot of juice from the wall when you crank it up
and have the x-over below 100hz.
I still have the Mirage, and it was the best sub I've had up until now.
It is still a fine sub, but with dual 12's in a huge box, and only 400w,
It's outclassed like a GT500 at a ZR1 lapping day.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Revhard
Thanks for the in-depth answer.
I really haven't been able to make the sub 12 wimper.
I have the system up higher than anybody should listen, and it
Just pounds away. The combo of the sub 12 and brand new Studio 100's
With over 400w each is disturbingly clean and clear at those levels.
The Emotiva pulls alot of juice from the wall when you crank it up
and have the x-over below 100hz.
I still have the Mirage, and it was the best sub I've had up until now.
It is still a fine sub, but with dual 12's in a huge box, and only 400w,
It's outclassed like a GT500 at a ZR1 lapping day.

Yeah I agree, the SUB12 is blowing my mind. I couldn't be happier, especially after I eliminated any doubts with my testing. And after I bought a PBK-1 it was like a whole new sub all over again.

I'm running Studio 20v5's and a CC590v5 for fronts, but my HT room is only 8ft X 10ft lol. The Studio 100v5 is the speaker I would buy if I had the money/room for it, without question. You must be loving them.

[Revhard]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt


Yeah I agree, the SUB12 is blowing my mind. I couldn't be happier, especially after I eliminated any doubts with my testing. And after I bought a PBK-1 it was like a whole new sub all over again.

I'm running Studio 20v5's and a CC590v5 for fronts, but my HT room is only 8ft X 10ft lol. The Studio 100v5 is the speaker I would buy if I had the money/room for it, without question. You must be loving them.

They are pretty amazing.
Only way I could be happier is if I was listening to 2 sub12's like I paid for.
The amp on one only lasted a week. They are shipping a new one.
Thing is, it took less time to get my XPA-2 from the US than it has to ship an amp from Ontario. Still not here.
Good thing 1 of these subs is truly amazing. Having the 2nd one again will just be icing on the cake.
My room is 12x19x8. I was really thinking about the sub 15's, but couldn't audition them. With everything all set-up as is, I'm still not sure I would do it the same. The 100's are awesome, but the paradigm subs are so capable.
I would recommend really listening to 60's with a sub 15 to anyone.
I'm not sure if it's as good as the 100's with a sub 12, but I know a few guys that have recently switched to the 15 from the 12, and they say it's worth every penny.
It never ends...:D

[Terrier12]

no idea if this thread is still active,

but if you're still looking for a descent sub for a good price, FS has a velodyne VDR12 on sale for like 280.

i have one, and it has some pretty good power for cheap.
i think it meshes well with my speakers TSi 500's.

also thanks to whoever posted that link to at the boarder place, i think i might just have to pick up a emotiva xpa-3 because of that
:D