Water heater blew

[C_Dave45]

So woke up yesterday to the mechanical room all flooded...my water heater blew.

Today I replaced it with a new one...DIY!!! Woohoo!!

That is all.

[BrknFngrs]

Brutal! Major damage?

[C_Dave45]

Got pretty lucky. Most of our Xmas supplies and halloween stuff are in big Tupperware boxes. Just a few cardboard boxes got damaged. We caught it early.

[frozenrice]

How is it to do the gas line? I always thought a gas fitter had to do it. :dunno:

[TomcoPDR]

pics

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by TomcoPDR
pics
Lol okay.

Out with the old
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/e1b5bad0.jpg

In with the new
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/4c1e346a.jpg

Getting ready to fit gas line
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/d142e609.jpg

Lots of dope
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/3fca1b60.jpg

Hook up water lines
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/f8280834.jpg

Im going to replace these old connections as well as the old supply-shut off. They're "sweating" just a tiny bit. But at least we can shower today.

[spike98]

Originally posted by frozenrice
How is it to do the gas line? I always thought a gas fitter had to do it. :dunno:

I did the gas line when i replaced the ex's parents water heater for them. Its actually quite easy. Tighten everything, remember to dope connections and snoop/soap the connections after to make sure there is no minute leaks.

[codetrap]

It's very satisfying isn't it. I replaced the induction fan on my furnace yesterday. It crapped out when we were on vacation so we came back to a pretty cool house. Probably saved a bunch of money by doing it myself, and it works flawlessly.

[Aleks]

DIY saves about $250-$300 in labour costs on a hot water tank replacement.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by codetrap
It's very satisfying isn't it. I replaced the induction fan on my furnace yesterday. It crapped out when we were on vacation so we came back to a pretty cool house. Probably saved a bunch of money by doing it myself, and it works flawlessly.

Lol. It is. I was looking about $800 or $900 for a plumber to do it. I paid $420 for the tank and $6 for the "dope".
Only thing that sucks is that after spending that money...it's just right back to where it was. Hot water. Not like getting a new fridge or stove where you have something nice and new to look at/use everyday lol.

[lint]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Lol. It is. I was looking about $800 or $900 for a plumber to do it. I paid $420 for the tank and $6 for the "dope".
Only thing that sucks is that after spending that money...it's just right back to where it was. Hot water. Not like getting a new fridge or stove where you have something nice and new to look at/use everyday lol.

you don't shower every day? :confused:

[codetrap]

I'm surprised you didn't go tankless. I was thinking about it, and if mine craps out, I'm going that route. Already have everything else needed for it.. softener etc.. And the thought of unlimited hot water for bath's showers etc is pretty sweet.

There is a cost hit of course, but with the eco energy rebates, it's much more worth it.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by lint


you don't shower every day? :confused:
Once a month is good lol.
No, what I mean is, there's no difference with the new one as when the old one was working. Plenty of hot water before....plenty of hot water now. And it's not something you look at or something that gives way better performance than the old. Kwim?

My buddy is a plumber and the pros/cons ofthe tankless are debatable. The cost savings are minimal and long term. Probably take you a good 10-15 years to recoup the extra costs upfront over the savings per month. Plus they require regular maintenance. Any troubles and its expensive to to diagnose/repair And need replacing about every 20 years. My plumber wont even put one in his own place, and he can do the install and service.
With my old tank I've never run out of hot water. Even after 3 of us have had showers after one another. So $420 vs a few thousand dollars just to save a few dollars a month...? Nah I'm good with traditional storage system.

[TomcoPDR]

That's such an old tank.

Did you carry the tanks by yourself?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by TomcoPDR
That's such an old tank.

Did you carry the tanks by yourself?

ROFL...you crack me up Thomas.
Yes. One under each arm....but I like to have them filled with water first.

[TomcoPDR]

Originally posted by C_Dave45


ROFL...you crack me up Thomas.
Yes. One under each arm....but I like to have them filled with water first.

no, I meant like carried each tank, one at a time, by yourself?

I guess they're only 60-80 lbs...

[max_boost]

Of course. Dave can bench 275 lol carrying a tank is nothing.

[codetrap]

I guess I'm following in your footsteps. My tank is leaking badly enough that it killed the pilot. So, off I go shopping now. I'm thinking I'll upgrade to a 60 from the 40 we had. Fun times!

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by codetrap
I guess I'm following in your footsteps. My tank is leaking badly enough that it killed the pilot. So, off I go shopping now. I'm thinking I'll upgrade to a 60 from the 40 we had. Fun times!
You're not going "tankless"?!?! ;)

Originally posted by codetrap
I'm surprised you didn't go tankless. I was thinking about it, and if mine craps out, I'm going that route. Already have everything else needed for it.. softener etc.. And the thought of unlimited hot water for bath's showers etc is pretty sweet.

There is a cost hit of course, but with the eco energy rebates, it's much more worth it.

[legendboy]

I just diy installed the exact same bradford wh.

sooooo nice having hot hot water again

[Cos]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

You're not going "tankless"?!?! ;)


Lol that is exactly what I was thinking

[codetrap]

Fuck ya all. :P

I stayed up late last night cleaning up, and then did a detailed cost analysis on it, and I can't make it pay. It's simply not worth it. I didn't realize that a decent bradford 50Gal is only $600, and the tankless is going to be 3 times that installed.

And worse yet, I'm paying to have it installed. I simply don't have the time today to dick around for 3 or 4 hours installing it. Too much shit happening this week. I got a guy that's doing the install for $250 flat. Considering that the new tank is 10 inches taller, and the gas hookup is in a diff place, I'm ok with this. I figured by the time I bought a pipe wrench, pex crimper and all the rest, I'm into it for 100+ already, plus time.. screw it. Pay the $250 and get shit done that makes me more $$.

[StreetRacerX]

Good choice in tank brand! 40 gal Bradford White's are typically what we install, only problem is that the gas valve can be finicky which is nothing serious, last one actually, the circuit board inside the gas valve was toast from the factory, had to swap a new in.

[codetrap]

Thanks!

[Isaiah]

My understanding is that tankless is supposed to save a ton of money since you're only using gas/current when you're actually using hot water as opposed to have the 60 gallon tank always heated?

Can anyone 'pipe' in?

Codetrap: Not sure where you got that 3X figure but my dad priced them out and it was about the same amount.

[Cos]

Originally posted by Isaiah
My understanding is that tankless is supposed to save a ton of money since you're only using gas/current when you're actually using hot water as opposed to have the 60 gallon tank always heated?

Can anyone 'pipe' in?

Codetrap: Not sure where you got that 3X figure but my dad priced them out and it was about the same amount.

Lets say it is 50% more efficient than a tank. I pay $40.00 a month for gas. Half that is heating half of that is water (guess). So that saves me $10.00 a month.

I was pricing them out and the cheapest instant water heater I found was $1550.00 and averaged around $2000.00.

At $120.00 a year and the difference of $1400.00 in price that is a long time before you even break even.

[legendboy]

Originally posted by codetrap
I didn't realize that a decent bradford 50Gal is only $600


damn, i got mine for $380

i got a hook up tho

[C_Dave45]

Lol...and those numbers are on the optimistic side. Most tankless systems average around $2500 installed, with many upwards of 3 grand. $10 a month saving is high. Most likely less than that. Then don't forget to ad the service costs of a tankless. Most need de-scaling after a couple of years. The rule if thumb is 15 to 20 years before you recoupe the initial cost. (my first post was conservative). As I said, even my plumber won't install one in his own house.

[ExtraSlow]

Yeah, I had several discussions about tankless water heaters with a guy who installs them. I really wanted one because of the "unlimited" hot water. He basically convinced me that it would be cheaper to install two conventional tanks instead of tankless. Even on his own house, where he'd be able to get the labour for free and the unit at a huge discount, he didn't install one.
I just stayed with my single conventional tank. Maybe when that craps out I'll look at the dual tank setup . . . Or a huge tank. What's the largest water tank?

[Cos]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Lol...and those numbers are on the optimistic side. Most tankless systems average around $2500 installed, with many upwards of 3 grand. $10 a month saving is high. Most likely less than that. Then don't forget to ad the service costs of a tankless. Most need de-scaling after a couple of years. The rule if thumb is 15 to 20 years before you recoupe the initial cost. (my first post was conservative). As I said, even my plumber won't install one in his own house.

If I went on the realistic side I probably would have been grilled alive. Even with really low numbers I still come out with a losing proposition so my point still gets across.

[codetrap]

Cos. Henry quoted me one. $3000 installed when is done. That is for my personal setup. Replacing my existing one was $870 tax in. That's $2130 difference to make up at what.. $120/year? He of course tried to talk me into it, but the math just doesn't make sense to me, not at a 20 year payback.

[TomcoPDR]

On top of that, my plumber told me it's a pita to use tankless without any water softener system.

[codetrap]

^ That part's not an issue for me. Installed one last summer. Love it too.. Goodbye eczema and chronic dry skin.

[bituerbo]

Thank god for this thread! Woke up this morning to EXACT same situation. Blown hot water tank, mechanical room all wet.

I was comfortable doing the plumbing, but was a little hesitant to do the gas fittings, but I'll read up on process/technique and I think I will try this myself.

I'm on a ridiculously tight budget, but so far this is the tank I'm thinking of getting (because it's the cheapest I can find):
http://www.homedepot.ca/product/hotpoint-40-gallon-natural-gas-water-heater-6-yr-warranty-36000-btu/903008

Unless someone know of a cheaper option around?

[Khyron]

I had mine inspected by the city after a jouneyman did the hookup - pretty sure you can't just DIY?

[Go4Long]

there's a lot of stuff the average homeowner "can't" do that still gets done.

[bituerbo]

I don't need a permit:
http://strathmore.ca/news.php?viewStory=119


A Gas Permit is required whenever gas work is being done, with the following exceptions:

· to replace a residential heating appliance with no piping or venting changes

Only other thing I can think of is making sure my ins. co won't void homeowners insurance if I do this work myself. I'm sure I can call my Gas company to come and do an inspection after I perform the work? (obviously test all connections myself w/ soapy water)

[J-hop]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Lol...and those numbers are on the optimistic side. Most tankless systems average around $2500 installed, with many upwards of 3 grand.

wow that is freaking cheap, the way guys were talking I was expecting 10k+. 3k for something you'll replace i duno once more in your lifetime, is a pretty small investment.

[Cos]

Originally posted by J-hop


wow that is freaking cheap, the way guys were talking I was expecting 10k+. 3k for something you'll replace i duno once more in your lifetime, is a pretty small investment.

Not when the equivalent of having hot water costs $500.00

Trust me everyone preaches tankless until they have to cut the cheque. Just look at CodeTrap.... ;) sorry buddy

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by J-hop


wow that is freaking cheap, the way guys were talking I was expecting 10k+. 3k for something you'll replace i duno once more in your lifetime, is a pretty small investment.
How do you figure thats cheap? A $500 gas heater will last you anywhere between 15-20 years and only costs $10 more per month. You'd rather spend $3,000? A tankless will last about the same time plus higher maintenance costs (regular descaling) and will take almost 20 years to recoup the difference. I really don't see any advantage of a tankless except for in a commercial application.

[Meback]

Man, my parents had theirs changed out last fall. Luckly we hired someone to do it, since that old tank weight a FREAKING hell of a lot with all that settlement in it. Tank hasnt even been drained for over a decade! They brought it to the dump for us too. I rather save money by doing it myself, but that would have just beenn way too much trouble for us.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Cos


Not when the equivalent of having hot water costs $500.00

Trust me everyone preaches tankless until they have to cut the cheque. Just look at CodeTrap.... ;) sorry buddy

LOL. No worries. To be totally honest, if I had more cashflow at the time, and wasn't under a time constraint due to a failure, I probably would have gone tankless. While I wouldn't most likely make it back in savings, I suspect it would be a few extra bucks when it came time to sell the house. At least I'd hope so.. I do know if / when we build, I'm going to definately revisit the idea of tankless, along with investigating geothermal and some other green technologies..

But, alas, that shall have to wait a few years.

[Maxt]

Forget Geothermal in this region... Solar works well but you need a constant need for the energy and the array is massive for the actual heat ouput to ever make it pay. I work on a large commercial solar installation that takes up an entire roof, but yet only produces 30,000 btu/hr at max output. It basically heats a bit of the carwash water.
As for tank vs tankless, I said this before, most tankless problems can be traced back to bonehead plumbers not reading the instructions.
Tank style in my experience, last between 5 and 12 years depending on usage with the typical southern Alberta water. They also take up an enormous amount of space . Tankless are about the size of carry on luggage. I have yet to see a tankless give a scaling error or lose flow, it seems the velocity is high enough when installed correctly that the exchanger does not get fouled at a very fast rate. The oldest one I know of is going on 6 years now and still has not required any maintenance.
You can buy a tank style that will approach the combustion efficiency of a tankless, but not heating 50 gallons of water all day long while you are at work, and not paying for 'recovery' heating save a lot more gas than most would think. Say you have a shower at night ,and put 30 gallons of hot down the drain. Now you heat that 30 gallons from Calgary water temp of 45 F up to 130 ish, and then maintain all 50 gallons at 130 all night long, for your shower in the morning. On top of that, you then add cold water to temper the 130 ish down to 105 or so.
With the tankless, if you install it in a sensible manner, you just crack open the hot tap, and adjust the temperature to 105 on the digital controller with priority control, and enjoy constant water at that constant temperature, and if someone flushes a toilet and flow changes, you don't get scolded either..
The best tankless are the Japanese makes, Rinnai, Noritz etc, the Korean ones had a problem with the exchangers freezing off, and the bosche ones had some harware issues.
The higher efficiency tank style are not without issues either, the controls now on the tank style have gotten to the point that they are not worth fixing if something goes wrong with them. The last one I repaired in an emergency, the combination gas control was 15 dollars cheaper than a whole new tank. They have a one time only high limit safety that if tripped means a 600.00 repair bill, the one I repaired had a birds nest in the flue vent.

[sillysod]

I've got a direct vent water heater in the house and it is a major piece of shit. I've had to replace the pilot ignitor AND the ignitor board on it and its only 4 years old.

In the garage I have a 10 year old 33 gal traditional heater I bought off of kijiji for $50.00 running glycol for the floor.

Both run all winter long as I have recirculating hot water in the house for the taps/showers and the garage heater keeps the floor warm. My $50 kijiji heater hasn't cost me a penny to maintain where as the direct vent already cost me over $300 in parts from woosley.


I looked at doing a tankless when we built, but it wasn't economical so I went with direct vent instead. Looking back it would have been better to just go with a traditional heater.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Maxt

You can buy a tank style that will approach the combustion efficiency of a tankless, but not heating 50 gallons of water all day long while you are at work, and not paying for 'recovery' heating save a lot more gas than most would think.

My furnace is off. I'm running a gas stove, and a gas BBQ during the summer. We use both for just about every meal. With my hot water tank, my actual gas cost is $15.78 (+$45 in service charges)

So, assuming that the tankless could save me.. 50% of my summer gas bill, we're talking a diff of $7.50/month. The Tankless system costs $2500 (very cheaply) installed vs the $1000 that I paid for a HE tank.

That means it would take $1500/$7.50 = 200 months to pay it back. (16.6years).

Advocate tankless all you like.. but it simply doesn't make any sense financially unless you can offset that $1500 difference somehow, and considering that a tankless is in reality going to have more like a $2000 spread to retrofit due to venting etc... it just gets worse..

Damnit Cos.. I hate eating my words.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by codetrap


My furnace is off. I'm running a gas stove, and a gas BBQ during the summer. We use both for just about every meal. With my hot water tank, my actual gas cost is $15.78 (+$45 in service charges)

So, assuming that the tankless could save me.. 50% of my summer gas bill, we're talking a diff of $7.50/month. The Tankless system costs $2500 (very cheaply) installed vs the $1000 that I paid for a HE tank.

That means it would take $1500/$7.50 = 200 months to pay it back. (16.6years).

Advocate tankless all you like.. but it simply doesn't make any sense financially unless you can offset that $1500 difference somehow, and considering that a tankless is in reality going to have more like a $2000 spread to retrofit due to venting etc... it just gets worse..

Damnit Cos.. I hate eating my words.
The tankless isn't going to give free gas, its only one part of the equation, it still takes energy to heat water, and if you have an older tank with pilot, or without dedicate d combustion air piping, the savings are greater. You are also assuming gas prices staying constant as well as variable charges, which is not going to happen.
On top of that , chances are the tankless unit will still be operational in 16.6 years where as on average you will have replaced your tank style twice.
The oldest tankless I have seen is 30 years old and still operational. If you were to replace an old tank with a newer high efficiency tank style, you still have the venting costs regardless. There is going to be a point in time soon, where you will not be able to buy a regular natural draft tank anymore, because they simply arent efficient enough, so at some point you are going to face the venting cost anyway, tank or tankless.
The savings in gas are only a fraction of the whole benefit of them. It really shows up in larger homes with multiple tank installations and larger families. You can save gas, save a huge amount of floor space, and you are never waiting for the tank to recover during times of heavy usage.
And this should be a no brainer when people buy houses with those new huge soaker tubs, I've seen a few now that were built with 60 gallon tubs with 30 gallon water heaters.

[Cos]

Originally posted by Maxt

The tankless isn't going to give free gas, its only one part of the equation, it still takes energy to heat water, and if you have an older tank with pilot, or without dedicate d combustion air piping, the savings are greater. You are also assuming gas prices staying constant as well as variable charges, which is not going to happen.
On top of that , chances are the tankless unit will still be operational in 16.6 years where as on average you will have replaced your tank style twice.
The oldest tankless I have seen is 30 years old and still operational. If you were to replace an old tank with a newer high efficiency tank style, you still have the venting costs regardless. There is going to be a point in time soon, where you will not be able to buy a regular natural draft tank anymore, because they simply arent efficient enough, so at some point you are going to face the venting cost anyway, tank or tankless.
The savings in gas are only a fraction of the whole benefit of them. It really shows up in larger homes with multiple tank installations and larger families. You can save gas, save a huge amount of floor space, and you are never waiting for the tank to recover during times of heavy usage.
And this should be a no brainer when people buy houses with those new huge soaker tubs, I've seen a few now that were built with 60 gallon tubs with 30 gallon water heaters.

I wont get into too many points but I have a few issues with what you are using as your proof:

- You assume NatGas prices are going to go up where there is actually a lot of concern over a forever depreciating cost of NatGas due to the Shale finds in the USA.

- You say that a tankless unit will last 16.6 years when a tank will only last 8 years. In your other post you say that the longest running tankless is 6 years old. You also have quite a bit of experience in what breaks on what unit leading me to assume that units newer than 6 years have broken already.

- You mention keeping the water heated and a pilot light. The $15.00 a month Code Trap is referring to includes keeping his tank warm I would think. Unless he somehow managed to figure it out without.


I am not saying that there are some benefits to tankless but a cost savings and replacement savings argument cannot be used this early on as there just isnt the proof.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Cos
I am not saying that there are some benefits to tankless but a cost savings and replacement savings argument cannot be used this early on as there just isnt the proof.


Bottom line is, a tankless water heater is like buying a hybrid car. It's savings have the ability to overcome the initial high cost, but it's unlikely for your normal average person.

I'm sure a tankless would be a great savings for someone with a big 2-person jet-tub, that they use every other day.

[bituerbo]

If you want to save gas/hot water, install heat recovery pipes on shower drains. Tankless systems are not 'investments'.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Cos

- You mention keeping the water heated and a pilot light. The $15.00 a month Code Trap is referring to includes keeping his tank warm I would think. Unless he somehow managed to figure it out without.


I am not saying that there are some benefits to tankless but a cost savings and replacement savings argument cannot be used this early on as there just isnt the proof.

That $15 is the total actual cost of gas, including my BBQ and Stove, for the summer months.

[Maxt]

The longest running tankless that I installed is 6 years old, the oldest one I know of in Calgary is 30.
Your gas bill seems low compared to mine and in your case the payback would be as you calculated it however lots of homes use much more gas and hot water than you.
I would never count on the price of gas staying low long term, it's really another discussion, but it wasn't all that long ago that I saw gas bills in the 200.00 range. You must also remember diminishing efficiency happens far quicker in a tank style than tankless.
Some units have broken already , that's why I added which make to buy. However most of the bad experiences people have with tankless is due to the installer not reading the first 2 pages of the manuals.
But when the day comes of no more natural drafters, the cost is going to be what it is tank or tankless.

[Maxt]

I guess the other thing to think about is I have never heard of a tankless leaking and ruining drywall and flooring . I have seen some catastrophic hot water tank failures.

[SilverGS]

So the drain valve on mine snapped off and the threads are probably toast on my water tank.

Where did everyone buy there Bradford White tanks?

I can probably do the piping myself but need someone to hookup the gas. Any recommendations would be great!!

[StreetRacerX]

Wolesley/Cronkite and Frontier Plumbing and Heating carry Bradford White tanks.

EDIT: For what its worth, if you can get the old tank out and the new one in position it would be better just to have the Plumber hook up the water supplies and gas line since most companies charge a minimum 1-1.5hours per service call, if you call them out just to hook up the gas it shouldn't take more than 30minutes to swap out a few nipples, and you still pay the company minimum.

[Cos]

Originally posted by StreetRacerX
Wolesley/Cronkite and Frontier Plumbing and Heating carry Bradford White tanks.

EDIT: For what its worth, if you can get the old tank out and the new one in position it would be better just to have the Plumber hook up the water supplies and gas line since most companies charge a minimum 1-1.5hours per service call, if you call them out just to hook up the gas it shouldn't take more than 30minutes to swap out a few nipples, and you still pay the company minimum.

I keep forgetting to look at my sacrificial anode. Is it something critical like I think it is? I am pretty lazy for it.

[StreetRacerX]

Originally posted by Cos


I keep forgetting to look at my sacrificial anode. Is it something critical like I think it is? I am pretty lazy for it.

It doesn't hurt to check it once or twice a year, mind you we've had to replace far more hot water tanks than anode rods, I can't remember the last time we've done one but hot water tanks are done almost everyday. It's probable and from what I've seen the homeowner/tenants don't bother to check them, they finally dissolve and the inside of the tank gets eaten, resulting in a leak usually, tanks don't seem to last more than 7-10 years it seems.

If you want to check it on you're Bradford White you will have to turn the temp on the tank low enough that it doesn't fire(just as a safety precaution), turn off the cold water supply to the tank, open the hot side of faucet/tub, attach a hose to the drain valve on the tank and place it in the floor drain, and drain enough water out so that when you disconnect the hot supply coming out of the hot water tank you can pull the anode out without flooding.

I will assume you have the corrugated flex connectors on the top of the tank, you disconnect the nut on the bottom where the hot water supply comes out, and that threaded portion is screws onto can be unscrewed and with it will come the anode.

EDIT: You will probably need channel locks/pipe wrench to remove the anode since I don't recall seeing any you could put a crescent wrench to remove, need something with teeth unfortunately.