CMA vs CA

[tedstriker]

1. Difficulty, costs of achieving?
2. Focus of work post graduation (Audits, taxes, management, etc)
3. Realistic pay ranges (entry level, after 5 years)
4. job market/demand for cma's vs ca's
5. any other comments?

[Xtrema]

This cover my general sense of each designation.

http://www.iwanttobeaca.com/2009/04/ca-cma-or-cga-designation.html

If your goal is to make partner somewhere in an accounting firm, CA is a must.

If your goal is getting work, CMA will suffice.

[Myrrinda]

If you enjoy having a life and friends and knowing your family, don't do a CA. If you loved your audit course and want to spend your evenings and weekends auditing auditing auditing, and then casb during your 'spare time' then definitely do your CA. You'll be one of the only 5 auditors in this city that likes their job.

Costs of achieving a CA: free if you work at a public accounting firm and don't fail. Expensive if you care about personal relationships.

Focus of work as a CA: you're required to get 36 months of work experience, 100 tax hours, and 1800 audit hours. Plus casb is about 10-20 hours per week. Once you get your CA, the world is your oyster.

Pay: firms start at around 40-45k, then go up 10-15k per year depending on how good you are at your job

I think demand is about the same, though I don't know for sure.

Other comments: Becoming a CA sucks. Once you're there it's worth it, but it takes a few years and you end up sad and alone at the end.

Edit: These are an accurate portrayal of life as an auditor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8Yry3ZXaB0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPRwC3JOqS8&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[Marsh]

Ok How about longer term? obviously going through the CA designation process sucks...but how about a forward looking perspective? In 10-15 years what kind of career path's could you see?

Personally I know both would go up the management chain in a corporation... but if all else is equal (competent and ambitious person) works, where could they see themselves in that sort of time span?

[austic]

I worked for one then went the other route. Do what you like is the important thing, if you are good at what you do the money will come.

MBA probably has a better ROI then either but that depends on who you ask.

[Myrrinda]

CAs have a higher chance of becoming the CFO of a large corporation. CMAs tend to focus on budgeting, forcasting, variance analysis, etc. CAs and CGAs become controllers and CFOs. If I hadn't done my CA I would have done the CGA program, as I have no interest in managerial accounting. The programs are completely different, and I think it's more important to get a sense of the differences in the programs, as that has a tendency to set out what kind of jobs you end up in in the future. I didn't like managerial accounting in university, so I would have been crazy to do the CMA route. In the CA program, you focus on every aspect of accounting; managerial and financial, so the program is kind of all-encompassing. We are trained to tackle any accounting related issue that comes our way. But despite all this I can still barely do my own taxes.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by austic
MBA probably has a better ROI then either but that depends on who you ask.

MBA's are a dime a dozen. But probably good to have to break into management if you have no history with the employer.

[DUBBED]

Originally posted by Myrrinda

Other comments: Becoming a CA sucks. Once you're there it's worth it, but it takes a few years and you end up sad and alone at the end.



SO

EFFEN

TRUE


Every day the list of people I have to apologize to for being a piece of shit gets longer.

[msommers]

A girl I was seeing for a short while was articling for her CA. Needless to say, we broke up because she barely had any extra time. I think CA's salaries are initially higher.

My Mom has her CMA and if it's any consolation, she now works 4 days a week and makes well above average salary for most in O&G. I think it's like anything, after awhile it comes down to experience and work ethic.

[tedstriker]

I appreciate the responses guys, thanks.

Can someone please shed some light on the CA career pathway? That is something I haven't heard allot about and would be interested in your feedback. Is it..:

Articling (3 years - 45k/year) - Junior CA (3-5 years - 75-100k/year) - Middle/Senior CA (5-10 years - 120-150k/year) - senior/partner (150k++/year)

Just an example..let me know what you think its really like.

[BrknFngrs]

Currently I would expect pay ranges to be ballpark as follows (assuming you're at a CA firm):

- 1st Year: $41,000
- Second Year: $48-$53,000
- Third Year: $62-$72,000 (generally obtain your designation in this year if you do things on a normal timeline)
- 4th Year: $73-$83,000
- 5th Year: (If you make manager) ~$100,000

After your first year your pay varies significantly based on your performance against your peers, hence the ranges. Like others have mentioned above though, it's not an easy process and there is definitely easier ways to make comparable money.

[DUBBED]

^^^ something like that...

Year 1-4 you'll start at $40K and move up $10-15k a year, once you hit the 5 year mark it slows down a little. Partners at our office are max salary $250k, but profit sharing puts them in the +$500k territory.

Takes ten years of hell to make partner. You could be making much better coin IMO in investment management or something else along those lines...

[tedstriker]

wow, so you're saying you go through 4 years of undergrad, plus three years of articling hell for 75K per year, with the faint hope of making some decent money in 10+ years? Whats the catch? There must be something I'm missing here? Why would anyone do this for so little $$?

[max_boost]

Yes. I have a few friends who are in Oil/Gas with their CA and making around $100k.

Also have a few friends slaving for one of the big fours working on the 5th module and making just over $40k.

Yep definitely seems like a lot of work haha At least I'm a good friend and get them super wasted when their party time comes around. :rofl:

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by tedstriker
wow, so you're saying you go through 4 years of undergrad, plus three years of articling hell for 75K per year, with the faint hope of making some decent money in 10+ years? Whats the catch? There must be something I'm missing here? Why would anyone do this for so little $$?

Remember, Calgary's market is not normal. Its not hard for O&G workers to hit $100k if you hitch on the right company with just a bit of experience. But if you aspire to become a CFO for medium to large firms, CA is almost a must. So u slave for the 1st half in hoping that coast easily with lots of $ at the end.

But working for the big 4 to get your CA isn't easy. My sis did her years @ EY and if she counted the hours, she get paid less than working @ McD for that $45K.

[tedstriker]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Remember, Calgary's market is not normal. Its not hard for O&G workers to hit $100k if you hitch on the right company with just a bit of experience. But if you aspire to become a CFO for medium to large firms, CA is almost a must. So u slave for the 1st half in hoping that coast easily with lots of $ at the end.

But working for the big 4 to get your CA isn't easy. My sis did her years @ EY and if she counted the hours, she get paid less than working @ McD for that $45K.

So what kind of hours are we talking here? 7am-7pm Monday to Friday, plus some Saturday work as well?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by tedstriker


So what kind of hours are we talking here? 7am-7pm Monday to Friday, plus some Saturday work as well?

Sound about right when tax deadlines were approaching.

Most don't stick around the big 4. Get the title and move on to O&G.

[tedstriker]

Any CMA's out there wanna shed some light on your education/career path? Do you enjoy it, satisfied with the $$, life balance, etc...?

[TheRealTimHorton]

Anyone in this thread who does accounting work actually like their job?

[997TT]

Originally posted by tedstriker
Any CMA's out there wanna shed some light on your education/career path? Do you enjoy it, satisfied with the $$, life balance, etc...?

I got my CMA... its gey. But i've done okay for myself and am satisfied with my $$ (outside losing my ass in the mkts).

i'm a consultant so i kind of work my hours (take most fridays off to golf) but then i dont get paid. :cry:

^ agree with Tim horton.... being an accountant sucks. No question about it. Other than the super dorky accts (mostly CA's) every accountant i know hates his job. lol

[tenth]

Originally posted by tedstriker
wow, so you're saying you go through 4 years of undergrad, plus three years of articling hell for 75K per year, with the faint hope of making some decent money in 10+ years? Whats the catch? There must be something I'm missing here? Why would anyone do this for so little $$?
I'm not sure what you consider to be decent money, but if that doesn't occur until you're 200+k a year, then ya that'll probably take 10ish years. That said, a very achievable possibility of making more than 100k base in your mid to late 20s less than 5 years out of undergrad seems pretty damn good to me (if you jump to industry). Although I didn't grow up in Alberta, and I'm definitely jealous of the engineers and other professionals here in Calgary.

[bwling]

Originally posted by 997TT


I got my CMA... its gey. But i've done okay for myself and am satisfied with my $$ (outside losing my ass in the mkts).

i'm a consultant so i kind of work my hours (take most fridays off to golf) but then i dont get paid. :cry:

^ agree with Tim horton.... being an accountant sucks. No question about it. Other than the super dorky accts (mostly CA's) every accountant i know hates his job. lol

Haha. I definitely fall into that boat. If I could do it all over again, it definitely wouldn't be accounting.

As others have indicated, being a CA/CMA/CGA in the O&G industry is lucrative, but most days it's hard to say that I enjoy what I am doing.

I agree with tenth that $200K+ can be achieved within 10 years after completion of your undergrad degree.

[Super_Geo]

Can you get into consulting at one of the Big4 with an accounting undergrad? I don't know why anyone would want to go into audit... from what little I know about accounting from the CFA, accounting looks brutally boring... no offense to any people in audit on here.

Also, I hear the UFE is hard as fuck.

[Myrrinda]

The UFE is considered to be the hardest professional exam to write, but if you study really hard, (and why wouldn't you?), then you shouldn't have a problem. The pass rate for the country as a whole is usually pretty high.

As for hours working at one of the Big 4s, Jan-April, depending on your client base, it's about 8am to anywhere between 8pm and 1am 5 days a week, and 7-10 hours Sat and/or Sunday. Hours during busy season really depend on what kind of clients you have, whether they're public, what industry they're in, what their accounting records are like, how large your team is, how long you're budgeted for, etc.

Hours May-August are a bit slower if you're not in Private Client Services, as year ends are usually done and you're doing quarterly reviews instead. But if you're in CASB, you're going home to do assignments most nights, so it kind of extends your work load. July has no casb, and is the best month of the year. Sept-Dec you're working steadily on interim testing getting ready for year end, but it's a standard work day for the most part.

Also, auditors rarely take lunch breaks. I can't remember the last time I didn't work through lunch or at least spend my lunch in front of my computer. Breaks consist of grabbing a coffee and heading back to your desk. The toll the job takes on your body is almost indescribable. It's easy to gain weight when all you live on is junk food and you're glued to your chair for 10 hours a day.

For those wondering about the CA program, it varies across the country, but for the most part, in Western Canada, you take the casb program, which consists of 5 modules. Each module is 8 weeks long with an exam at the end of the 9th week. The 8 weeks each consist of one assignment, due Friday night. Each assignment has approx 5 tasks. Your assignment is marked by your online facilitator, and returned to you by the following Monday. You have until the next Sunday to submit first revisions, then the Sunday after that for second revisions. In all, one assignment can span over 3 weeks, meanwhile, you're working on the next week's assignments while still trying to fix up the previous ones. Each module also has a face-to-face session, which is on weekend during the module, fri-Sun, where you go and 'learn' everything in the module from a facilitator. that weekend is painful, everytime. Once you finish your 5 modules, then you start to get ready for the UFE. You take mod 6, which is just a UFE prep course, and you write a mock UFE so that they can assess whether or not you are ready for the real UFE. Once you pass that, then you write the real UFE, which is in September every year. It's a 3 day exam, and it's standard to take your study leave in July to spend your days practicing case writing. Marks for the UFE come out in December. Once you pass the UFE, finish your 36 months, get your tax and audit hours, you can apply for your designation, and you will be FREEEEEE!!!!!

And you can get into consulting, which I believe is known as Advisory, but they don't have as many available positions, and every big 4 expects that their employees will one day get their designation, and to do that, you have to work in audit to get your hours. And tax, but tax hours are easy to get because you only need 100 of them.

[TheRealTimHorton]

^--- I puked a little in my mouth.

[Chandler_Racing]

I think people overstate how hard the exam is. Once, you've done six modules, the exam is border line easy.

As for compensation, the real divide comes when you decide which route you wish to continue on: public practice or industry.

The real trick is not staying to the infamous "Manager" level in big 4 firms. The firms preach how you will get "good experience." It's absolute BS, all you get is shitty compensation and work dumped on you. Anyone, who does not intent to stay till partner and continues on as a Manager is crazy, in my opinion.

I've learned more in the two years in industry, than I learned in almost 5 years in a big four firm.

[tenth]

Originally posted by Chandler_Racing
I think people overstate how hard the exam is. Once, you've done six modules, the exam is border line easy.
While the pass rate is pretty healthy and you are well prepared for it, I wouldn't use borderline easy to describe it. Not as bad as I thought it was going to be, but it's also a lot easier as a successful writer to look back and say these things. Best summer of my life, but there's a lot of people that disagree with that assessment.

[holden]

wow, those hours are crazy... my cousin is currently getting her CA designation and will write the UFE this year...

what are the hours like once you've earned your CA designation and are making 100K+ like stated above... are you still working 8AM-8PM during Jan-April, or does it get much easier?

[max_boost]

Not to argue because I don't know haha but I always thought the CFA exam > UFE by a long shot. Just saying haha

[Myrrinda]

Originally posted by max_boost
Not to argue because I don't know haha but I always thought the CFA exam > UFE by a long shot. Just saying haha

I've never written the CFA, so I'm not sure about that, but isn't it just multiple choice?

[tenth]

Originally posted by holden
wow, those hours are crazy... my cousin is currently getting her CA designation and will write the UFE this year...

what are the hours like once you've earned your CA designation and are making 100K+ like stated above... are you still working 8AM-8PM during Jan-April, or does it get much easier?
There's definitely some cushy jobs out there, but there's also some with worse hours than the firms. It really depends on the company, position, the group, etc... My hours aren't down, but I'm compensated for that.

[DUBBED]

Originally posted by max_boost
Not to argue because I don't know haha but I always thought the CFA exam > UFE by a long shot. Just saying haha


As someone who is about to write level 2, and has completed mod 1-5 of casb and will be writing the UFE in september, I can tell you that there is absolutely no fair comparison between the two.

Personally I think case writing for the casb exams/UFE are much more demanding tests. Preparation for CFA is much more challenging as it is completely self-directed and the level of precision required is much higher.

[Kari_310]

Wow so many negative comments on the CA route.

You will lose relationships, however I realized that through the process the ones that stuck around are actually the ones worth keeping.
You will work insane hours during audit busy season (Jan-March) and more as you become a senior.

From talking with some friends that have left the firm, once you leave the firm the hours typically go back to normal 40hrs/week, unless at month/year ends where theres a few days or when the auditors are there. Overall though, after the 30months your life does go back to normal, so the pain is temporary.

The way I look at it is that to get your CA is the hardest route possible, but for a good reason. Looking at the reason why I decided CA vs. CMA was simply the opportunities that CA gives over CMA and the level of training you receive.

The opportunities like the first post outlined is that you can go anywhere in the world and be recognized and get a job. Also, the majority of the CFOs are CAs (not saying all, but the majority).

I have also noticed that the majority of CMAs complete their training at O&G companies. Therefore, since your training is done at O&G you might be bound to that industry. For me, through auditing a variety of industries I hate O&G and never want a job in that industry (regardless of the $$) therefore, the CA route gives me the opportunity to work in all other industries.

The training for a CA is substantially different from the CMA program, and that's why the process is so much harder. You learn finance, managerial accounting, finance accounting, taxes, decision making, etc. The biggest skill that I have learned is critical thinking.

Ask anyone that has their CA and has left working for the firms, all the pain was worth it in the end.

[Myrrinda]

Originally posted by Kari_310
Wow so many negative comments on the CA route.



I should clarify, if I were to start over in accounting, I would still do the CA route. And it's nice that you have people to go through it with. Everyone at the firm is in the same position, or was at some point.

I'm just bitter about accounting, haha. If I could do life over, I would have stuck with becoming an English teacher. At least I'd get vacation.

[prodigydud]

It should be noted that having a designation, whatever it may be, does not entitle the person to become an Officer of a company. I strongly agree that it is completely up to the individual to add value to their corporation, and it is this contribution that attributed them to their success. In other words, having a certain designation should not limit the possibilities of an individual.

Maybe someone can shed some light on the proposed CA-CMA merger a while back. From what I heard, the reason this was remotely being considered was that CA's and CMA's were ending up in similar positions anyways :dunno:

[in*10*se]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2005/03/04/accountants-050304.html



Two of the country's major accounting bodies have called off plans to merge Canada's CAs and CMAs into one group.
The Canadian leadership of the CA (Chartered Accountants) and CMA (Certified Management Accountants) bodies began merger discussions last year.

They said "one profession encompassing both CAs and CMAs would better protect the public interest", strengthen the industry, and lead to less confusion in a marketplace full of many different accounting designations.

But on Friday, the groups said the merger talks had been halted.

"This decision follows extensive discussions held over the past year between the leadership of CMA Canada and the CICA [Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants], in consultation with their respective governing bodies and members across the country," a joint statement said.

"Despite the best efforts of both organizations, it was not possible to reach agreement on key issues associated with the proposed merger at this time."

Under draft proposals for the merger, all members from the two merged accounting bodies would be known as chartered accountants and would all have the CA designation.

The merged body would have had three streams – audit and assurance, management and taxation.

The groups gave no specifics about what the main sticking points were. But many CAs were concerned that CMAs would be grandfathered into the CA profession, summarized on one CA discussion board as worry that a merger "would dilute the value of the CA profession because of lower educational and training requirements for CMAs."

Supporters of the merger pointed out that CMAs who wanted to practice in public accounting would have to meet the same qualifications as CAs.

There are 68,000 CAs in Canada and 35,000 CMAs.

In Quebec, CAs, CMAs and CGAs (Certified General Accountants) began merger talks last year. But those talks collapsed in October over disagreements about having a single CA designation for the merged groups.

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by in*10*se
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/story/2005/03/04/accountants-050304.html

That article is 6 years old... but I agree with the sentiment of the CAs... you'd get the same reaction if they tried to merge technologists and engineers and gave them the same designation.

[in*10*se]

^thats because the merger was attempted 6 years ago....;)

[prodigydud]

Maybe a CA can speak to this, but I also heard that CA's can now do their article in industry as opposed to accounting firms.

Does that make them less of a CA? :dunno:

[bwling]

^ There was another thread on this a while back

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&threadid=304558

[bwling]

Originally posted by tenth

While the pass rate is pretty healthy and you are well prepared for it, I wouldn't use borderline easy to describe it. Not as bad as I thought it was going to be, but it's also a lot easier as a successful writer to look back and say these things. Best summer of my life, but there's a lot of people that disagree with that assessment.

The modules did a great job preparing me for the UFE. I wouldn't have said it at the time I was going through them, but looking back, they were definitely useful.

I experienced the opposite; studying for the UFE was the worst summer of my life because I kept failing the practice exams (I later found out that my study partner and I were marking ourselves too hard). It didn't help that the people studying next door to us boasted every day about how they maxed out the questions.

However, come marks day, my study partner and I passed, and the bozos next door didn't. I got some satisfaction out of that.

[gyu]

Hey 997TT, Tim Horton and bwling

What would you guys have studied instead if you knew you wouldn't like your job as an accountant? Could you be more specific about what it is you don't like about it?

I've been thinking of becoming a CMA so yeah

[Super_Geo]

Originally posted by gyu
Hey 997TT, Tim Horton and bwling

What would you guys have studied instead if you knew you wouldn't like your job as an accountant? Could you be more specific about what it is you don't like about it?

I've been thinking of becoming a CMA so yeah

Can't go wrong with engineering... literally no doors are closed career-path wise.

[M.alex]

This thread makes baby jesus cry, lol. Too much work!

Seriously, why waste that much time and effort for an accounting designation - go back to school and learn math (stats and actuarial science) then call yourself a financial engineer since you already have a financial background.

Working the hours you guys were describing I was at least making 7figures back then. Most of my contacts who are similar to me (i.e., a math+finance background) can easily pull (assuming average performance) mid-high 6 figures by upselling their skills to investment management firms.

I just can't see the value of slaving like a dog for 3yrs, making 40k + "experience", just to potentially make 100-200k after 10yrs.

Just like, for example, I've had friends who were option analysts at Enmax - they'd slave away 8am to midnight every day over their models and excel sheets making something like 90k .... if they moved into private finance they'd easily be making 5-10x without any doubts in my mind (especially since they were usually 10x smarter than me :rofl: )


Summary:

finance by itself = fail
math by itself = fail
finance+math = W1N

[Superdooper]

Who cares about CFO's when you can become a CEO?

Percentage of S&P 500 CEO's degrees.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/UnitedBalkans/ceodegrees.jpg

When adjusting for size of the pool of grads, those with an economics degree had a much greater likelihood of becoming a CEO than any other degree, including engineering.

Soooo.....economics > accounting....but what do I know :dunno:

[Manhattan]

Originally posted by M.alex
Just like, for example, I've had friends who were option analysts at Enmax - they'd slave away 8am to midnight every day over their models and excel sheets making something like 90k .... if they moved into private finance they'd easily be making 5-10x without any doubts in my mind (especially since they were usually 10x smarter than me :rofl: )

Which investment firms and with what kinda background?

[M.alex]

Originally posted by Manhattan


Which investment firms and with what kinda background?

"Smaller" (staffing, not capitalization/leverage) private ones. Not institutions like TD if that's what you're thinking.

Backgrounds are typically (but not always) stats or pure math.

There are obviously legal requirements that force certain designations (e.g., CFAs if you want to manage a mutual fund), but there are also equally just as many ways to get around those legal road blocks (e.g., in the above case, rent a CFA for legalities, and have a "shadow" "investment council" in place)

[The_Rural_Juror]

Lots of Kool-Aid being handed out at the Big 4 firms these days.

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

Originally posted by Xtrema
This cover my general sense of each designation.

http://www.iwanttobeaca.com/2009/04/ca-cma-or-cga-designation.html

If your goal is to make partner somewhere in an accounting firm, CA is a must.

If your goal is getting work, CMA will suffice.

No one seems to agree with that guy according to all the comments. Either its out of date or he doesn't have a clue what talking about.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by LUCKYSTRIKE


No one seems to agree with that guy according to all the comments. Either its out of date or he doesn't have a clue what talking about.

I never read past the 1st few comments but I don't see the disagreements.

But it's expected since people from each designation have superiority complex over each other.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by M.alex


Working the hours you guys were describing I was at least making 7figures back then. eh brah you making more in a month than most peeps make in a year. cool storay. you gotz any proove? jus sayin' not hatin'

:werd:

[Mckenzie]

A CEO who doesn't have a grasp on the numbers side of the business is going to have a lot of issues speaking to investors, lenders and other stake-holders. It also makes it tougher to control costs and understand the proper capitalization of the entity, internal controls, cost sensitivity and budgeting parts of business. Any accounting designation will get you there really. Obviously great CEO leadership can be backed by a strong finance team, but the CEO does need to understand this stuff to have a true grasp on their company.

[M.alex]

Originally posted by max_boost
eh brah you making more in a month than most peeps make in a year. cool storay. you gotz any proove? jus sayin' not hatin'

:werd:

You want me to post my tax returns for the last few years :rofl:

Or maybe some shirtless pics :poosie:

That was during my peak for aig, no it's substantially less....although I'm working on changing that ;)

[max_boost]

Originally posted by M.alex


You want me to post my tax returns for the last few years :rofl:

Or maybe some shirtless pics :poosie:

That was during my peak for aig, no it's substantially less....although I'm working on changing that ;)


bastardchild territory. nice.

:D

[Myrrinda]

Who wouldn't rather be CFO? Just ask Tony Hayward. I bet he wished he could have switched positions with his CFO.

[997TT]

Originally posted by gyu
Hey 997TT, Tim Horton and bwling

What would you guys have studied instead if you knew you wouldn't like your job as an accountant? Could you be more specific about what it is you don't like about it?

I've been thinking of becoming a CMA so yeah

if your company is willing to pay for it, your heading down an accounting type career path in industry, i would get the CMA.

I'm not sure its helped me a ton in my career but it hasn't hurt. So besides wasting a couple years of your life your gonna get something that only has upside with little to no downside. ie you'll never get passed over for a job if you were a CMA vs just a B.Comm.

[Cos]

Originally posted by Myrrinda
The UFE is considered to be the hardest professional exam to write, but if you study really hard, (and .............


I have so much more respect for the CA's at my work now..... P.Eng's have to shut their mouth. Lol

[Mckenzie]

I think at the end of the day, knowing that you can find work in any country at any stage of your life in the accounting field is a nice thing, regardless of the arrangement of letters behind your name. Job security in this day is HUGE. With the number of financial professionals laid off around the world with MBAs and CFAs, having a technical skill is def much better than soft skills.

[KappaSigma]

I do not regret it one bit for going to CA route and getting my letters.

[DUBBED]

http://www.cica.ca/about-the-profession/lets-eng.html

interesting

[austic]

Originally posted by DUBBED
http://www.cica.ca/about-the-profession/lets-eng.html

interesting

Just got the email about this, very interesting. CPA is the direction of the future.

[tenth]

Definitely not a certainty. Lots of angry CAs (and some CMAs) in the discussion forums. If this goes to vote, I don't see it passing.

[Marsh]

CPA is the American accounting designation isnt it?

[Mckenzie]

^The CPA in America is CERTIFIED Public Accountant.

They are proposing a CHARTERED Public Accountant.

Yes I just saw this too...not impressed.

This pisses me off as the CPA carried nowhere near the clout that the CA does, and recognized internationally, the CA is far superior.

How does this now affect the professional reciprocity arrangements with UK, AUS, NZ and Bermuda, etc.?

It is pretty stupid. I won't be voting for this.:banghead:

[tenth]

Originally posted by Mckenzie
They are proposing a CHARTERED Public Accountant.
Splitting hairs, but they're going Chartered Professional Accountant.

Definitely don't see how going to the same three letters as the not as highly regarded American designation will help with international confusion.

[holden]

Originally posted by tenth

Splitting hairs, but they're going Chartered Professional Accountant.

Definitely don't see how going to the same three letters as the not as highly regarded American designation will help with international confusion.

If CPA (American) is not as highly regarded, what is the most highly regarded designation you can get in the US?

[DUBBED]

I'm not too impressed with this idea either, will create a lot of confusion between the CPAs who can signed off on financial statements and those who can't. And I'm not sure I fully understand why we would create a designation that requires an asterisk.

[austic]

I think I will wait to see what the final product is before I decide considering they are only in exploratory discussions of what would be a 10 year process.

[tenth]

Originally posted by holden
If CPA (American) is not as highly regarded, what is the most highly regarded designation you can get in the US?
CPA. I meant it's not as highly regarded as the CA.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by DUBBED
I'm not too impressed with this idea either, will create a lot of confusion between the CPAs who can signed off on financial statements and those who can't. And I'm not sure I fully understand why we would create a designation that requires an asterisk.

Agreed; I don't see this reducing confusion in the least. If you want your CA, you go the CA route, if you want your CMA, you go the CMA route.

I really hope this does go to a vote in the early stages; may as well stop it before a bunch of time/effort is spent on something that members don't want (atleast based on historical votes)

[prodigydud]

I wonder if there is a $$$ motive behind this movement. Perhaps, controlling majority of accounting designations within Canada and jacking up annuals dues :devil:

Let's face it, if this passes, 99% of accounting new grads will be going down the CPA route.

[KappaSigma]

Sorry but Ill be voting a big NO. Why dilute the branding.

[Mckenzie]

Originally posted by tenth

Splitting hairs, but they're going Chartered Professional Accountant.

Definitely don't see how going to the same three letters as the not as highly regarded American designation will help with international confusion.

My bad. :banghead:

I think the second I saw CPA I puked in my mouth and stopped reading.



Agree with the comment about confusion on who can sign off what, but I think it would be more from the perspective of people outside the profession....like someone looking to get professional work done, or hiring an accountant for a non-accounting role.. They will have to somehow know the difference between a CPA, CA, CMA, CGA, CPA (US) and the different training route.

Seems like it will be a bit of a clusterjam.

CASB = CPASB. Just doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely.

[BrknFngrs]

Have any of you guys been on the official discussion board for the merger? It's a bit of a gong show ha-ha

[Mckenzie]

^I didn't know there was a discussion board. haha

It's like beyond for bitter accountants?

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by Mckenzie
^I didn't know there was a discussion board. haha

It's like beyond for bitter accountants?

The details for it are in the email that came out yesterday. Heavily moderated but hilarious none the less, if anything, it's creating even bigger rifts between the two designations due to all the insults back and forth :rofl:

[AutodreamMarvin]

Hey 997TT, what are your thoughts on going the CMA route? If you had to redo it, would you still have gone through it?

Anyone else take the CMA route?

[Mckenzie]

The biggest difference for me is the type of experience you get between the two. In my 3 years at a CA firm I worked on:

-Bankruptcies
-Going Concern Clients
-IPOs
-Private Placements
-Turnarounds
-Divestitures
-Audits of public telecom, large, medium small, oil and gas services, exploration and production, high tech, non-profit, real estate, private holding companies, alternative energy in engagement teams from Calgary, Colorado, New York, Ontario, Arizona and all over.

There is no comparison in my view between that breadth of experience and someone who has sat at the same desk for 3 years in an accounting capacity. For that reason, I don't think the paths of CMA and CA are comparable.

I will vote no.:bigpimp:

[gyu]

Originally posted by 997TT


if your company is willing to pay for it, your heading down an accounting type career path in industry, i would get the CMA.

I'm not sure its helped me a ton in my career but it hasn't hurt. So besides wasting a couple years of your life your gonna get something that only has upside with little to no downside. ie you'll never get passed over for a job if you were a CMA vs just a B.Comm.
Do you think one can still get pretty far with just a B.Comm in accounting? Are they viewed the same as someone with a diploma in accounting from SAIT?
What's the day-to-day stuff that you like (if any) and don't like about your job?

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

You could still find an average salary job but for the most part any bigger company that is looking for accountants wants them designated.


Originally posted by gyu

Do you think one can still get pretty far with just a B.Comm in accounting? Are they viewed the same as someone with a diploma in accounting from SAIT?
What's the day-to-day stuff that you like (if any) and don't like about your job?

[Mckenzie]

Originally posted by gyu

Do you think one can still get pretty far with just a B.Comm in accounting? Are they viewed the same as someone with a diploma in accounting from SAIT?
What's the day-to-day stuff that you like (if any) and don't like about your job?



Originally posted by LUCKYSTRIKE
You could still find an average salary job but for the most part any bigger company that is looking for accountants wants them designated.



Salaries for accountants are always reasonable, but you will pretty much be at a ceiling the day you start. Not likely to move past jr accountant, AP/AR functions without the letters...especially in bigger companies.

You can always fake your way in the door and tell them you are enrolled in the CGA/CMA program and just keep failing or dropping modules. I know people who have done that haha.

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

Originally posted by Mckenzie

You can always fake your way in the door and tell them you are enrolled in the CGA/CMA program and just keep failing or dropping modules. I know people who have done that haha.

lmao

keepin it classy.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by gyu

Do you think one can still get pretty far with just a B.Comm in accounting? Are they viewed the same as someone with a diploma in accounting from SAIT?
What's the day-to-day stuff that you like (if any) and don't like about your job?

B.Comm get you into the Big 4. Diploma get you AP/AR jobs of small companies.

[flipstah]

You don't have to choose anymore!

They're merging!

[BlkWdwPrelude]

Actually now you can take SAIT courses to get into the CA program.

[heinz256]

Originally posted by flipstah
You don't have to choose anymore!

They're merging!

Not set in stone yet.

[BrknFngrs]

Things are definitely heating up; there was a post on the discussion board yesterday regarding filing an injunction against the board. Could be a very interesting few months.

Myself personally; I think that there needs to be a vote regarding the professions leadership going forward.

[BlkWdwPrelude]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
Things are definitely heating up; there was a post on the discussion board yesterday regarding filing an injunction against the board. Could be a very interesting few months.

Myself personally; I think that there needs to be a vote regarding the professions leadership going forward.


I like the idea of a vote but worry that the larger number of Eastern CAs and CMAs will make the western votes not matter.

Although I think if it fails in one province it fails all across the board like what happened in 2006.

[BrknFngrs]

Originally posted by BlkWdwPrelude



I like the idea of a vote but worry that the larger number of Eastern CAs and CMAs will make the western votes not matter.

Although I think if it fails in one province it fails all across the board like what happened in 2006.

It's tough to say for sure but I suspect that this may be something that the east and west are united on (at least based on the discussion board comments so far which may or may not be representative).

In thinking about it, it seems like one of two things is happening. Either the leadership group is completely ignoring the members or they are withholding critical information regarding the underlying reasons for the merger. Either way, it makes me uneasy.

[The_Rural_Juror]

beancounter nerd fight. lol!

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by BlkWdwPrelude
Actually now you can take SAIT courses to get into the CA program.

O rly?

links?

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

Originally posted by Xtrema


O rly?

links?

http://sait.ca/pages/cometosait/academic/degrees/abba.shtml

its a degree program

[BlkWdwPrelude]

My bad my statement is misleading but SAIT courses are exceptable as pre requisites IF you qualify as a mature student as defined below from the CASB site:


Mature Students

Prospective students who do not have a four-year, 120-credit university degree may be eligible to register with CASB as mature students.

Mature students have:

Five years of relevant business experience, or a combination of business experience (two years minimum) and full-time post-secondary education (three years maximum)
Achieved a GMAT score of 550 or higher
Completed the 12 prerequisite courses --->there's a link to look at schools eligible in Alberta
Secured employment with an approved CA Training Office
Prospective students applying to the CASB program under this category must submit two letters of reference and a detailed resume outlining their work experience. They are also required to have an assessment completed by CASB. Contact [email protected] to begin the assessment process.


Here's the link that shows that SAIT is eligible in 2010 at least lol.

http://www.casb.com/index.php?catid=101

[flipstah]

Originally posted by heinz256


Not set in stone yet.

Not yet but definitely in heated debate right now. Sucks for who has a designation already, good for the people who are gunning for one. :)

[SugeTek]

The merger talks are (publicly) in the the infant stages, personally I think they'll go through. This seems very different from what happened in 04/05 when the plan was to drop the CMA and make everyone CAs. Fuck that....I jumped through the hoops to get my letters, all I hope is that the UFE doesn't become diluted in any way.

Plus the process to become a CA is completely different depending on where you are in the country...the only program that resembles CASB is ASCA in the maritimes (CASB was based on it). So, there's no real harmony in the process to get your letters except for the UFE.

As for choosing what route to go...don't listen to people saying you will sacrifice a personal life to get a CA...they might have done that, I didn't. I got my CA , and during that time I traveled to Peru and attended the last World Cup (sure, I did quit my job to do the latter, lol), wrote and passed the 2010 UFE. In the end it was worth it, CASB is a bitch, the UFE isn't easy, but it is what it is for a reason.

As for pay? A freshly minted CA in Calgary can earn $90k in oil and gas (my study partner just took a role with a midsize company).

[tedstriker]

bump, any other acct related info? I'm currently taking acct 355 and 351 from Athabasca and really enjoy them. When can a person realistically start applying for student co-op positions? 2nd year, 3rd year?

[tedstriker]

bump, any other acct related info? I'm currently taking acct 355 and 351 from Athabasca and really enjoy them. When can a person realistically start applying for student co-op positions? 2nd year, 3rd year?

[gqmw]

What kinda info are you looking for?

yeah 2nd or 3rd year

[tedstriker]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was wondering about the CA/CMA proposed merger, and recommendations on co-op type positions (big four or elsewhere, what type of work, pay, time commitment, etc). thanks in advance.

[IntegraG2]

Originally posted by Mckenzie
The biggest difference for me is the type of experience you get between the two. In my 3 years at a CA firm I worked on:

-Bankruptcies
-Going Concern Clients
-IPOs
-Private Placements
-Turnarounds
-Divestitures
-Audits of public telecom, large, medium small, oil and gas services, exploration and production, high tech, non-profit, real estate, private holding companies, alternative energy in engagement teams from Calgary, Colorado, New York, Ontario, Arizona and all over.

There is no comparison in my view between that breadth of experience and someone who has sat at the same desk for 3 years in an accounting capacity. For that reason, I don't think the paths of CMA and CA are comparable.

I will vote no.:bigpimp:

What he said.

I can't stress enough how much diversified experience a CA articling student gets at a big 4 firm.

Even if the merge happened I think there will still be a clear distinction of who went the CASB or MPacc route and who went the CMA route. I'm hoping in the end that a person with a CA designation (pre-merge) gets recognized for experience.

For real, I didn't bust my ass for 3 crazy years for nothing!

I vote no as well.


Originally posted by SugeTek
As for pay? A freshly minted CA in Calgary can earn $90k in oil and gas (my study partner just took a role with a midsize company).

I also confirm that this statement is true. I have been meeting with multiple recruiters and this type of salary is standard at a midsize and large O&G company.