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SmelltheRubber
09-10-2002, 06:12 PM
Need a opinion on this! I realize that the turbo's take time to spool up, and I would like to avoid the lag, but other than that I dont know which is the better road! A few people I have talked to mentioned that some superchargers can put my V6 into the 320+ horsepower range! Is that true?? If it is, can a turbo match that performance??

HRD2PLZ
09-10-2002, 06:25 PM
I was actually wondering the same thing...exept for my car :D

buh_buh
09-11-2002, 12:21 AM
a turbo can match and overpass 320hp if you really want to. Turbos have much more potential than a supercharger.

max_boost
09-11-2002, 12:32 AM
Turbos have unlimited potential but that will ultimately cost you more money in the future. They are also higher maintenance and are more prone to problems.

In short, TURBOS ARE ASS! Unless if it is from the factory!
*zips up flame suit*

Where is B18C when you need him

Boost Infested
09-11-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by max_boost
Turbos have unlimited potential but that will ultimately cost you more money in the future. They are also higher maintenance and are more prone to problems.

In short, TURBOS ARE ASS! Unless if it is from the factory!
*zips up flame suit*

Where is B18C when you need him

sorry, but turbo is way more efficient than supercharger....how are they have higher maintenance?:bullshit: let it idle for a bit before shut down...

prone to problems? lets hear some of them...

what is the difference when you turbo a car or factory turbo cars?:dunno:

just ask Redline on this subject... he went from super to turbo... why? Kyle please reply to this one!:p

sexualbanana
09-11-2002, 12:39 AM
uh oh. and here it begins. . . again.

Boost Infested
09-11-2002, 12:43 AM
someone opened a can of WORMS! :D

max_boost
09-11-2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Boost Infested


sorry, but turbo is way more efficient than supercharger....how are they have higher maintenance?:bullshit: let it idle for a bit before shut down...

prone to problems? lets hear some of them...

what is the difference when you turbo a car or factory turbo cars?:dunno:

just ask Redline on this subject... he went from super to turbo... why? Kyle please reply to this one!:p

Why isn't Redline driving his car? Did he blow something?
Why did choweyt3/t4 take off his turbo? Did he blow something?
How many CV joints has rage2 broken?
Why did XES car die at the start of the 1/4 a couple weeks back?

Because for the average person who doesn't know much about FI will be better off with a supercharger.

Actually, I don't really know what I am talking about:dunno: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Boost Infested
09-11-2002, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by max_boost


Why isn't Redline driving his car? Did he blow something?
Why did choweyt3/t4 take off his turbo? Did he blow something?
How many CV joints has rage2 broken?
Why did XES car die at the start of the 1/4 a couple weeks back?

Because for the average person who doesn't know much about FI will be better off with a supercharger.

all the reasons you listed are due to tuning issues, not because you have a turbo in your car, JR.:rofl: supercharger could also melt your engine internals as well if you are not careful too, is this not right?:dunno:

secondly XES broke/rage broke due to power issue, weak factory parts etc, once again has nothing to do with turbocharger.:rofl: so if i have supercharger then i will not brake axles, tranny, etc?

i dont know much about F1 cars, i still think its better off with turbocharger..........learn as you go my friend, be like water, when you are in a cup you become the cup..LOL:rofl:

"if you aint broken, you aint using it right!"
amen...........:devil:

rage2
09-11-2002, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by max_boost
Why isn't Redline driving his car? Did he blow something?
Why did choweyt3/t4 take off his turbo? Did he blow something?


Because with a turbo, you have the ability to push the engine a little more... Add more boost by simply adjusting the wastegate and run some high octane fuel. If they had S/C, changed pulleys to get more boost to get closer to the engine's limits, it'll still blow a headgasket =).


Originally posted by max_boost
How many CV joints has rage2 broken?
Why did XES car die at the start of the 1/4 a couple weeks back?

That's cuz we're making so much power with a turbo setup. We're both making well over 400hp at the wheels. If a S/C setup on our cars can make the same amount of power, those items would break too.

In most cases, if you take 2 identical engines, and make one turbo and one with s/c, both with the same peak output, a Supercharged engine will be more stressed. Why? Because it takes more power to drive a supercharger via crank than it does to drive a turbo via exhaust. A turbo system is more complex, therefore it costs more.

max_boost
09-11-2002, 01:10 AM
LOL
Thanks for the info man!

You have to attemtp to try to stand up to something!

But like I said previously, I didn't really know what I was talking about. Now that we all have a good laugh, TURBOS ARE STILL ASS!

You might as well buy a factory powered at 400+hp flywheel beause with all the money you put into your turbo cars, you can do it!!


I've been doing Accounting homework for the past 3 hours so I had to argue about something!

Mods can delete any of irrelevant posts if they want!

nookmumracing
09-11-2002, 08:58 AM
How about NOS? Why doesn't anybody want to be fast and furious? I say NOS AND 2 BOTTLES OF IT:clap:

pEACE

SmelltheRubber
09-11-2002, 10:22 AM
Those are all good points, but, maybe i'm wrong (actually, im PROBABLY wrong), shouldnt a s/c car have the edge over a turbo'd car?? The supercharger starts to lay down power right off the start, whereas most turbos have to wait till the higher rpm's before they kick in. And can any car be twin-turboed?? Or is there a specific requirement for 2 turbos?

2000impreza
09-11-2002, 10:55 AM
turbo lag really depend on the size of turbo.

i'm not 100% sure but i think there are 3 type's of superchargers, roots, centrifugal, screw... i think. i don't know how these things differ so maybe someone can explain???... lol.

EDIT: found this on a miata website

Roots: positive displacemente units, which means every rev of the blower pumps out a fixed volume of air, regardless of the blower's rpm. Result is that boost comes on early. Most application produce full boost at 2000-2500rpm. Boost can be altered by changing pulley size. Best to underdrive larger unit than to overdrive smaller one. Manufacturers include B&M, Littlefield, Sebring.

Centrifugal: Most popular type for fuel injected engines. Provides airflow proportional to blower rpm, thus full boost comes as high rpm. Manufacturers include Accessible Technologies, B&M, Nelson, Paxton, Vortech.

Twin-screw: positive displacement, similar to roots. differences: uses twin screws instead of lobed rotos to compress air, works best when overdriven. Sample manufacturer: Whipple Industries.

T5_X
09-11-2002, 01:32 PM
You have a V6 mustang? Supercharger.
Though I say the best thing to do is upgrade to a 4.6 first and go from there.

Supercharger for a V6 mustang because it'll enhance the good points of your pushrod engine that much more. Also, I don't think anyone even makes a turbo kit for your 3.8L, if they do, where's the aftermarket for turbo upgrades? Supercharger running on light boost is very cheap to install and very reliable for the 3.8L cause there's more aftermarket and well, just more people have done it. Go to stangnet.com and I'm sure you'll get the same response.
Also, if you want to get into the 320 Hp+ range (turbo or supercharger) make sure there's an aftermarket for stronger engine internals as well as stronger well, everything.


2000impreza:
A centrifugal supercharger looks just like a turbo only its run by the engine instead of exhaust. These superchargers are much more similar to turbos due to their design, like they might need blow off valves and they DO have lag, just as turbos do. They also operate at high RPMs, somewhere in the 30,000-50,000 range I believe.
A blower, or roots style charger sits on top of the engine. This is the choice for most pushrod engine owners as it has NO lag whatsovever and enhances the pushrod's low end grund. I believe its not as strong in the higher engine RPM ranges. It typically operates best at around 15,000-20,000 RPM.

There's a lot more to them than just that. I have no idea what a "screw" supercharger is.

redline
09-11-2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by nookmumracing
How about NOS? Why doesn't anybody want to be fast and furious? I say NOS AND 2 BOTTLES OF IT:clap:

pEACE


I am with this dude nnnnnaaaaaaawwwwwwwzzzzzzz

redline
09-11-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by Boost Infested


just ask Redline on this subject... he went from super to turbo... why? Kyle please reply to this one!:p

nope i am staying out of this one, i dont care what anyone does to their car! :dunno:

sexualbanana
09-11-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by nookmumracing
How about NOS? Why doesn't anybody want to be fast and furious? I say NOS AND 2 BOTTLES OF IT:clap:

pEACE

amateurs don't use nitrous oxide

B18C
09-11-2002, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by redline


nope i am staying out of this one, i dont care what anyone does to their car! :dunno:

Werd to that!

If you want an answer that is more specific for your car I would go to a mustang specific site and see what they have to say.

SmelltheRubber
09-11-2002, 11:22 PM
Yeah i'm checking out the mustang sites too. I just wanted a general opinion on this. So it sounds like a centrifugal supercharger is probably the best route for the 3.8L pushrod engine.
Thx for the info

GT2NV
09-13-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by SmelltheRubber
Yeah i'm checking out the mustang sites too. I just wanted a general opinion on this. So it sounds like a centrifugal supercharger is probably the best route for the 3.8L pushrod engine.
Thx for the info


i think if you want to be fast you should consider a faster car first...:dunno:

SmelltheRubber
09-14-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by black94gt



i think if you want to be fast you should consider a faster car first...:dunno:

Did you have such a big mouth when your probe was still stock?? :thumbsdow

GT2NV
09-14-2002, 03:31 PM
you buying a v6 mustang is like me buying the base probe se with 118 horsepower........ its just that you have alot to make up just to match the power that the v8 would have, i say you should buy the V8 but thats just my 2c

2000impreza
09-14-2002, 04:45 PM
maybe he just wants to make his v6 faster rather than buying a whole different car.. thats like me trading my car in for a wrx just because its the top model and has more power....

B18C
09-14-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by black94gt



i think if you want to be fast you should consider a faster car first...:dunno:

Why do you care what car he wants to modify?

If you stick by that mentality why would anyone modify a car. Esp a Fwd car?

300rwhp
09-14-2002, 09:23 PM
dude vortech makes some great centrifugal kits for your car. check out some old issues of muscle mustangs and fast fords they have a couple issues on supercharging your car and other good mods. by the way a v6 stang is a world better to mod than probe gt. man probes are so gay. if you want a fast probe you better look into an older turbo probe not a shafty gutless cheap excuse for a v6. just my :"2c"

SmelltheRubber
09-15-2002, 12:40 AM
Thx for the info 300rwhp. I've looked around and i have definitely decided on a vortech for sure.

T5_X
09-15-2002, 11:42 PM
yah man, check out stangnet.com, read product reviews and do searches in the forums. The forum has something like 30,000 members so I'm sure everything imaginable has been covered.

BTW, the 99+ 3.8 is actually a lot better than most give it credit for. It runs to 60 now in well under 8 seconds. I've driven a 95 V6 and an 02 V6. I was very impressed with the newer one. With some suspension upgrades, a supercharger and more goodies than make it lighter and more nimble, it'll be one hell of a road car :thumbsup:
g/l man!

LaughingTiger
09-16-2002, 05:52 PM
Super chargers are better for the engine but have a limit on the power out put and achievment..

Turbo chargers put alot of pressure on t the gaskets and seals,
so if your engine isn't built for it, down the road you may have a few problems, that's why it's not recomended to put turbo's on engines w/ high km's. In all honestly turbo's are great. how long
are you going to keep one car anyway! You can always up grade,
you can achieve awsome power increases by just changing the
air intake or exaust system. But turbo's come with an outrages
price.

NOS... what a great word... What great power... what a great way to blow your crank!

NOS is a great way to add power for a cheap price compaired to
the super's or turbo's, but you have to spend money up-grading
alot of engine parts so it can with stand such boosts...

I'm not bashing NOS, But I would spend the money on a turbo or
super my self.

RX-7_TWINTURBO
09-16-2002, 06:02 PM
i have a question

centrifugal superchargers bulid boost relitive to rpms right
i.e. a engine with a centrifugal supercharger running 8psi and a 8000 rpm redline will boost 4psi at 4000, 6psi at 6000 and 8psi at 8000 right ?
as opposed to a positive displacement which will always be boosing at 8psi
sorry for the confusing post

300rwhp
09-16-2002, 06:34 PM
sean i found out it is relitive to the rpm but it is not a set amount of boost/rpm. different in every car every supercharger. positive displacement wont allways boostthe same either. but boosts quicker than centrifugal.

300rwhp
09-16-2002, 06:35 PM
with a centrifugal you could run 14 psi at 5000 or 6 psi at 5000

B18C
09-16-2002, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by LaughingTiger
Super chargers are better for the engine but have a limit on the power out put and achievment..

Turbo chargers put alot of pressure on t the gaskets and seals,
so if your engine isn't built for it, down the road you may have a few problems, that's why it's not recomended to put turbo's on engines w/ high km's. In all honestly turbo's are great. how long
are you going to keep one car anyway! You can always up grade,
you can achieve awsome power increases by just changing the
air intake or exaust system. But turbo's come with an outrages
price.


Why do you say that a turbo puts more pressure on the gaskets and seals? boost is boost no matter, what it is coming from.


Originally posted by 300rwhp
sean i found out it is relitive to the rpm but it is not a set amount of boost/rpm. different in every car every supercharger. positive displacement wont allways boostthe same either. but boosts quicker than centrifugal.

That correct :thumbsup:

LaughingTiger
09-16-2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by B18C


Why do you say that a turbo puts more pressure on the gaskets and seals? boost is boost no matter, what it is coming from.



That correct :thumbsup:

From what I've heard it of course causes a higher compression
on the the valves and pistons, therefor putting more stress
on the seals. And of course your oil pressure changes with the
engine working harder causing more stress on the gaskets.
There are many things a turbo charger can change when putting
one on a car, even the car's computer must read different, fuel
pressure is changed, thus a fuel pressure regulator is recomended.

That is what I ment about putting a turbo on a car which engine's
is not designed for one. you have to look at many other things
other than the kit. In alot of Honda's the crankshaft and case
must be modified because of there weakness in low end power
ratio compaired to there higher end power. I'm not saying that
a turbo will rip apart your engine, these are just minor things which happen over time.

rage2
09-17-2002, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by LaughingTiger
From what I've heard it of course causes a higher compression
on the the valves and pistons, therefor putting more stress
on the seals. And of course your oil pressure changes with the
engine working harder causing more stress on the gaskets.


HUH? :dunno: B18C is right, boost is boost. For 2 engines (SC vs Turbo) making the same power, the supercharged one will have more stress in it's internals, because the engine needs to make more power to overcome the higher loss by driving the supercharger.


Originally posted by LaughingTiger
There are many things a turbo charger can change when putting one on a car, even the car's computer must read different, fuel pressure is changed, thus a fuel pressure regulator is recomended.

And supercharging a car will require the exact same thing. As for fuel pressure regulator, all cars need regulated fuel pressure...


Originally posted by LaughingTiger
That is what I ment about putting a turbo on a car which engine's is not designed for one. you have to look at many other things other than the kit. In alot of Honda's the crankshaft and case must be modified because of there weakness in low end power ratio compaired to there higher end power. I'm not saying that a turbo will rip apart your engine, these are just minor things which happen over time.

Weakness in low end power ratio? :dunno: What the hell is that? :dunno:. Most turbo hondas I've seen use stock bottom ends. It's NEVER the bottom ends that go first.

Alpine Autowerks
09-17-2002, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by RX-7_TWINTURBO
i have a question

centrifugal superchargers bulid boost relitive to rpms right
i.e. a engine with a centrifugal supercharger running 8psi and a 8000 rpm redline will boost 4psi at 4000, 6psi at 6000 and 8psi at 8000 right ?
as opposed to a positive displacement which will always be boosing at 8psi
sorry for the confusing post

If you are asking if centrifugal s/c's are linear...NO ! They are essentially a belt driven turbo compressor. The compressor boost curve is a quadratic (rpm*rpm*rpm*rpm) function.
Most belt driven s/c's only have straight blades which is the main reason they are less efficient than turbos with a scrolled blade. Just look at the compressor P/V isobars too see what I mean.

LaughingTiger
09-17-2002, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by rage2


Weakness in low end power ratio? :dunno: What the hell is that? :dunno:. Most turbo hondas I've seen use stock bottom ends. It's NEVER the bottom ends that go first.

I've seen many Honda's crank shafts blow by NOS. including
my old prelude. Of course higher power from a turbo or super charger will put more stress on the crank, look at that high
powered prelude who blew his axel out at race city, Maybe the crank won't go first, but on a honda engine there weaker than other cars. have you ever seen the inside of a honda crank? Honda's are great cars but there engineers try to make them faster at higher RPM's there horse power is always greater than the torque levels by far. An old celica has more torque than
the new 200hp RSX, but will never beat it on the top end.

I guess the supers and turbo's would both do the same kind of
damage, but I've just been told that the turbo's can be harder
on the engine and easyer to break.

Redlyne_mr2
09-17-2002, 09:41 AM
As everone else has already stated boost is boost, both setusp cause stress on the eninge and eventually fuck it...I actually tend to think that turbos are easier on an engine because they do run of the engine like the supercharger does. Had ludelvr rigged up a supeorcharger on his lude rather than a turbo his ghetto setup woudl have probably lasted a few hours rather than a few weeks

T5_X
09-17-2002, 04:18 PM
for supercharger reliability, I would think an eaton style would be the most reliable. It spins at much lower RPMs (the supercharger itself, i pointed out earlier operates at something like 10,000-20,000 rpm)
As well with this supercharger, once you take your foot off the gas, it stops spinning, so you don't have it spinning all the time as in a turbo, so you don't have the extra pressure it's creating once it hits the throttle plate, and back pressure. Compressor bypass valves are supposed to fix this, but it's still another thing that can go wrong.


For the 3.8L pushrod, I'd think that an eaton supercharger would be the most reliable for the engine (and the turbo) It has a more powerful combustion in the lower RPM range because of the charge velocity of the intake due to only having one small intake valve. If your using a supercharger that works in the lower RPM range, you could use this to your advantage, but since they can't breathe as easy in the upper rpm range (where centrifugal s/c and turbos are more effective) then you'd try to be cramming more air though the small single valves, that could be a problem.


All working on assumption here, am i making sense? :dunno:

SmelltheRubber
09-17-2002, 08:07 PM
Good points.

LaughingTiger
09-18-2002, 08:56 AM
Good points Ranger....

Ben
09-23-2002, 03:00 PM
I myself am not possitive which route I want to go anymore.

I have been investing time and money into turbo parts, but for my car, the supercharger is more practical.

My car uses the same 1.8L 8V motor that was used in the 90-91 VW corrados, except thiers was supercharged to 156hp from 85 (mine is 90). The Supercharger was the g60 of course, and it is a way easier install on my car than a turbo because of the fact that I have my intake manifold as well as exhaust on the same side. Its hard to say really, I like boost, but I dont know if it is going to come from a turbo anymore...ARG!!!

Autodream
09-27-2002, 01:55 AM
It not the turbo or SC that blow things up, It the user that blow thier cars up. In terms of force induction, detonation is the #1 killer to all motors. there are many things to consider B4 you start boosting. #1 fuel enrichment to compensate for the amount of air that you will pump through that motor. #2 ignition retarding, when you ignite more air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber it will burn faster, mean it will release full energy B4 the piston reach top dead center. which will bend the rods, blow the head gasket or put a hole in the piston. most people take away 1 degree of ignition timming for every lb of boost.
it is so much easier to crank up the boost on a turbo than a SC. that why there are more turbo motors blow up then SC motors. my car is turbo and I drove it hard for the past 2 years and it still run like the first day I drove it.
If I talk to much please excuse me guys and girls

rage2
09-27-2002, 09:42 AM
Great post. Finally someone that understands technically the issues with FI. :thumbsup:

T5_X
09-27-2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by sr20det95
It not the turbo or SC that blow things up, It the user that blow thier cars up. In terms of force induction, detonation is the #1 killer to all motors. there are many things to consider B4 you start boosting. #1 fuel enrichment to compensate for the amount of air that you will pump through that motor. #2 ignition retarding, when you ignite more air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber it will burn faster, mean it will release full energy B4 the piston reach top dead center. which will bend the rods, blow the head gasket or put a hole in the piston. most people take away 1 degree of ignition timming for every lb of boost.
it is so much easier to crank up the boost on a turbo than a SC. that why there are more turbo motors blow up then SC motors. my car is turbo and I drove it hard for the past 2 years and it still run like the first day I drove it.
If I talk to much please excuse me guys and girls

I was reading a thread in another forum, and someone asked this exact question when tuning his CA18ET, one guy gave this response:

"As far as advancing timing is concerned, it's a bit tricky, I'm used to a system where the computer controls ALL timing and ignition, but if I'm correct the CAS on the CA18ET setup is computer controlled and willback off or advance timings it sees fit depending on knocksum and probably fuel mixture (O2's). If it's computercontrolled, let the ECU do it's job, not you. It's far better at it and more responsive to sudden condition changes that could otherwise threattty of engine. "

Now the CA18ET is a pretty old engine (almost 20 years i think) Would this apply to most, or some cars produced in the last 20 years? I know this guy has tuned up DSMs and chysler turbos.

GT2NV
09-28-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by 300rwhp
by the way a v6 stang is a world better to mod than probe gt. man probes are so gay. if you want a fast probe you better look into an older turbo probe not a shafty gutless cheap excuse for a v6. just my :"2c"

if smell the rubber wanted a fast mustang he as well should have went for an older 5.0 gt.... but we wanted something newer

THREE40SEVEN
10-06-2002, 05:16 PM
Id type it out, but this is much easier. Taken from turbomustangs.com, and outlines the major points between the two.

I' d go turbo. I have a buddy with a 95 v6 stang with a single turbo pushing ~420rwhp on davenports dyno. He runs 11's in saskatoon.
http://www.turbomustangs.com/turbovssuper.htm

syeve
10-08-2002, 12:20 PM
All I can say is that there is applications where SC is better and there are applications where turbo is better, some to do with the owner (expectation of HP ect.) and some to do with the car. DO NOT listen to those who dont have either, they will have opinions that are not alway accurate ie. turbo are harder on engines, or turbos are more maintanence. Talk to people who have done both (Nelson) and talk to people who have an after market turbo (me, XES, boost) I have a preference (turbo) but that only has to do with the car I drive and the better of the two FOR MY CAR is turbo. For your car there might be some advantages to go SC, i don't know.
Basically turbos will make more power but they are more expensive (if you do it right) a lot of the statements in this thread are incorrect. Talk to a pro (Nelson, XES, boost)

THREE40SEVEN
10-08-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by syeve
a lot of the statements in this thread are incorrect. Talk to a pro (Nelson, XES, boost)
which statements dont you agree with?

syeve
10-08-2002, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by max_boost
They are also higher maintenance and are more prone to problems.

In short, TURBOS ARE ASS! Unless if it is from the factory!




not flaming you max_boost, just don't agree with you...

got M
10-09-2002, 12:02 AM
Budget is the deciding factor.
AA Turbo for e36 M3 $11,000 USD(over $17,000CDN)
Supercharger about $5000

Can you imagine a 420hp @ wheels M3

buh_buh
10-09-2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by got M
Budget is the deciding factor.
AA Turbo for e36 M3 $11,000 USD(over $17,000CDN)
Supercharger about $5000

Can you imagine a 420hp @ wheels M3
I could only imagine....... :confused:

three.eighteen.
10-09-2002, 12:18 AM
heee...thats why i plan on building my car into a turbo 318 eventually...can you imagine the badge i could run on the trunk lid?
:poosie:318is-T:poosie:

sportryder
10-09-2002, 07:16 PM
Laughing Tiger
I'm not bashing NOS, But I would spend the money on a turbo or
super my self.

Right on... In most cases no matter how much you reinforce the engine (pistons and the like) things like spark plugs can still melt with Nitrous. Compared to turbo or super, Nitrous has many disadvantages.

VWhooligan
10-10-2002, 06:47 PM
On a larger displacement engine like a v8, I would definately choose a supercharger over a turbocharger. Turbocharger systems are much more useful to a 4-cylinder.

The turbo relies on the exhaust, and starts spooling only when enough pressure is coming out of the back, IE. Higher rev's (turbo lag). With big v8's, they dont rev very high at all so its not really efficient to have a turbocharger that loves high revving engines, rather it would be perfect to use a supercharger where the boost comes at low RPM's.

I know a bit about forced induction, just wrote a 20 page final on them. God bless open topics.

gpomp
10-10-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by VWhooligan
On a larger displacement engine like a v8, I would definately choose a supercharger over a turbocharger. Turbocharger systems are much more useful to a 4-cylinder.

The turbo relies on the exhaust, and starts spooling only when enough pressure is coming out of the back, IE. Higher rev's (turbo lag). With big v8's, they dont rev very high at all so its not really efficient to have a turbocharger that loves high revving engines, rather it would be perfect to use a supercharger where the boost comes at low RPM's.

I know a bit about forced induction, just wrote a 20 page final on them. God bless open topics.

Don't diesels have turbochargers and have 4000 rpm redlines? :dunno:

95TsiAWD
10-11-2002, 09:27 AM
If the car came factory with the turbo you're set, if you're adding a turbo kit I'd look to go supercharger first. Less work and since most people cheap out and leave their bottom end stock a supercharger will put out the whopping 7 psi you're going to run anyway.
If you really want power out of a 4 cylinder then a built bottom-end and a big turbo si the only way to go. What it really comes down to is that a super gives you a nice torque bump up and usually 15psi max boost (I've never seen a super boosting more than that anyway). A turbo will be a little bit laggier, no torque increase really, but the horsepower potential is much higher when you consider you could run 30psi off it if your car is properly setup and the turbo/motor can handle it.
Oh and a turbo sounds better than a supercharger :bigpimp: 27psi rules!

THREE40SEVEN
10-11-2002, 06:03 PM
Almost all OEM turbo set ups are inefficient and lack in power. Most major manufacturers(ford/gm/dodge etc) use smaller turbo's, so that they spool quickly, and lack top end power production. Small turbos create more heat, exhaust backpressure, and become useless in the upper RPM range. Many factory intercoolers will create large pressure drops, and are often not placed in an area where air has an easy path through it.
Factory turbo=crap in most cases- i'll leave porsche out:)
A third of the energy created by the combustion process is shot out of the tailpipe in the form of heat. Why not make use of it? I can take 20 to over 60hp just to turn a supercharger. A turbo, depending on size, will rob very little horsepower by the backpressure that is always present when bolting a turbo onto the exhuast manifold. Larger turbo= less backpressure.
The comment about a supercharger being better than a turbo on a v8-:bullshit:. Whats going to create more heat energy- 8 or 4 cyls?
Quote
"Right on... In most cases no matter how much you reinforce the engine (pistons and the like) things like spark plugs can still melt with Nitrous. Compared to turbo or super, Nitrous has many disadvantages."
Melting spark plugs is the result of a bad tune, and can happen on NA, turbo, superchaged, or nitroused engines.

theken
10-15-2002, 08:41 PM
2 words "turbocharge it" turbos make a sweet noise that is basically all you need to know:thumbsup:

theken
10-15-2002, 08:41 PM
2 words "turbocharge it" turbos make a sweet noise that is basically all you need to know:thumbsup:

5.9 R/T
10-15-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by THREE40SEVEN
A turbo, depending on size, will rob very little horsepower by the backpressure that is always present when bolting a turbo onto the exhuast manifold. Larger turbo= less backpressure.
The comment about a supercharger being better than a turbo on a v8-:bullshit:. Whats going to create more heat energy- 8 or 4 cyls?


But you left out half the story. The bigger the turbo, the longer the lag, the less power you will make throughout the powerband. Basically neither setup is perfect, and both take hp from your motor, although in the turbo's case it's a lot less then the S/C. BUT for 4cyls right now the only decent setup out there in the from of S/C is a pulley driven turbo, so why not get the real thing? For V6 and V8 applications it's easier to run an S/C for cost and design reasons, hence most aftermarket setups for their motors are S/C's.

B18C
10-15-2002, 10:49 PM
I think someone should close/delete this thread.

There is some good info but also a lot of bad info. Do a search. This topic has been covered many times.

EDIT: I love your sig R/T :bigpimp:

P. Daddy Pedro
10-17-2002, 12:20 AM
Theken wrote:
"2 words "turbocharge it" turbos make a sweet noise that is basically all you need to know"

dude if you're concerned with noise over performance you might aswell go out and buy one of those "sweet" fake BOV's.
LOL

Toms-Celica
10-19-2002, 09:46 PM
I wrote these up about a year ago....
(TurboCharger)
BASICS:
Sometimes called a blower, the supercharger or turbocharger raises the air pressure in the engine intake manifold. Then, when the intake valves open, more air-fuel mixture can flow into the cylinders. Engine horsepower can be doubled in racing applications with engine modifications and a blower.

TURBOCHARGER:
A turbocharger is an exhaust-driven fan or blower that forces air into the engine under pressure. Turbochargers are frequently used on small gasoline and diesel engines to increase power output. By harnessing exhaust energy, a turbocharger can improve engine efficiency (fuel economy and emission levels). This is especially true with diesel engines.
I'll explain about the basic parts of a turbocharger below...
1) Turbine wheel- Exhaust-driven fan that turns the turbo shaft and compressor wheel.
2) Turbine housing- Outer enclosure that routes exhaust gases around the turbine wheel.
3) Turbo shaft- Steel shaft that connects the turbine and compressor wheels. It passes through center of the bearing housing.
4) Compressor wheel- Driven fan that forces air into the engine intake manifold under pressure.
5) Compressor housing- Part of the turbo housing that surrounds the compressor wheel. Its shape helps pump air into the engine.
6) Bearing housing- Enclosure around the turbo shaft that contains bearings, seals, and oil passages.

HOW IT WORKS: (Pre-note: Read my "Engine Tec" again)
When the engine is running, hot exhaust gases blow out through the open exhaust valve ports and into the exhaust manifold. The exhaust manifold and connecting tubing route these gases into the turbine housing.
As the gases pass through the turbine housing, they strike the fins on the turbine wheel. When engine load is high enough, there is enough exhaust flow to rapidly spin the turbine wheel.
Since the turbine wheel is connected to compressor wheel by the turbo shaft, the compressor wheel rotates the turbine. Compressor wheel rotation pulls air into the compressor housing. Centrifugal force throws the spinning air outward. This causes air to flow out of the turbocharger and into the engine cylinder under pressure.

IMPORTANT TERMS:
1) Turbo lag- Refers to the short delay before the turbo develops enough boost (pressure above atmospheric pressure) to meet engine demand.
2) Intercooler- is an air-to-air heat exchanger that cools the air entering the engine.
3) Waste gate- Limits the amount of boost pressure developed by the turbocharger. It is a butterfly or popper-type valve that allows exhaust to bypass the turbine wheel.

Toms-Celica
10-19-2002, 09:48 PM
--Supercharger--

BASICS:
A supercharger is a compressor or blower driven by a belt, chain, or gears. Unlike a turbocharger, engine exhaust gases do not drive it. A belt drives most passenger car superchargers on the front on the engine. The supercharger belt drives the rotors inside the supercharger. As the rotors turn, they compress the air inside the housing and force the air, under pressure, into the engine intake manifold. The belt is usually connected to the engine crankshaft pulley.

ELECTROMAGNETIC CLUTCH:
An electromagnetic clutch is sometimes used to disengage the drive belt from the blower. It works like an air-conditioning compressor clutch to save energy when additional power is not needed. For example, the blower might only engage at full throttle when there is demand for more engine power.

SUPERCHARGED/TURBOCHARGED ENGINE MUST-DO'S: (VERY IMPORTANT!)
A supercharged engine normally has SEVERAL modifications to make it withstand the increased horsepower. A few of there are as follows...
1) Crankshaft
2) Connecting Rods
3) Pistons

lammer
10-19-2002, 09:54 PM
well done tom's celica.

ConVict
10-20-2002, 03:08 AM
Conners opinion on this is, Go all the way or go home!
A supercharger pulls hp from your engine to derive the hp it push's out! Correct.. which means if you turbo your car you are looking at more hp numbers although not all that big!
I know a lot about both applications and what I want out of either or is a lot of power! When using a lot of power from a supercharger unless you feel like changing belts on your car which takes hours, a turbo you can change your boost level in 2 seconds making your car track/street drivable! I dont like this supercharger in this sense...

Second, when you are RACING some one you are in your high end RPM range , which is poriving to be better in a turboed application... Sure the super will have more power for about 1 second in first gear, but you will have more power for the entire rest of the race...
pros and cons of both... but if you look at it from my point of view ( PURE RACING USE ) I believe turbo is the way to go ...

GT2NV
10-20-2002, 10:38 PM
much agreed, and the turbo setup is way better as far as fuel economy is concerned:thumbsup:

rage2
10-21-2002, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by black94gt
much agreed, and the turbo setup is way better as far as fuel economy is concerned:thumbsup:

Actually, a turbo setup is sort of inefficient off boost, because there's a loss of power due to the engine needing more energy to drive the exhaust gases out the turbine (high backpressure).

A S/C setup (most factory ones) have a S/C clutch, so there's no draw on engine power when not needed.

THREE40SEVEN
10-22-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by 5.9 R/T


But you left out half the story. The bigger the turbo, the longer the lag, the less power you will make throughout the powerband.
Its not like you have to wait until 5000rpm to get the car to move. I have driven both turbo and supercharged cars, and i like the turbo by far. Turbo systems will reach full boost much faster than a centrifical supercharger, as the centrifical build boost by rpm, not load.

THREE40SEVEN
10-23-2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Toms-Celica
I wrote these up about a year ago....
(TurboCharger)
BASICS:
Engine horsepower can be doubled in racing applications with engine modifications and a blower.


SUPERCHARGED ENGINE MUST-DO'S: (VERY IMPORTANT!)
A supercharged engine normally has SEVERAL modifications to make it withstand the increased horsepower. A few of there are as follows...
1) Crankshaft
2) Connecting Rods
3) Pistons

A supercharger will instantly produce boost pressure at low engine speeds because it is linked to the engine crankshaft








A couple more things- i'll shut up after this.

A turbocharger can do more than double horsepower. I know some of the older formula 1 cars made 1400(yes fourteen hundred) horsepower from 90cid and 75LBS of boost:eek:

Most engines WILL NOT require any new cranks/rods/pistons when supercharging with mild boost(6-10lbs). The problem with imports is sometimes the compression ratio is too high for forced induction- ie the type R integra(high 10's i believe), and the strength of the factory rotating assy.
Im sure some of you read about shanes 11.5 sec stock short block TT 5.0 on this board. It has stock pistons/rods/crank, As long as the compression is not sky high and the tune is safe, you'll be fine as long as you stay within mild boost levels. The same rules go for both super and turbocharged engines.

The supercharger that you are speaking of that provides boost off idle is a roots blower -jackson racing, kenne bell etc. They give great torque, and a big block feel, but lack peak power production.
A centrifical supercharger (paxton/vortech/procharger etc) will build boost with RPM. If the Kit says it makes 6 lbs, it will make 6 lbs boost at redline, after gradually climbing in boost through the rpm range. Centrifical's make more peak power, which is what counts in the 1/4 mile; not torque.

If your serious about making power, a centrifical or turbo is the way to go.
I've got a close(r) to stock 5.0 coming in with a kenne bell roots blower and exhaust on friday. when i tune it, i'll post the roots results VS typical centrifical power outputs with the same mods.
Thats if you guys give a shit.
Im done.
Matt

90_Shelby
10-27-2002, 07:36 PM
I really hope that know one is reading this thread to learn more about FI, as I can't believe the amount of uneducated statements being posted. I think I read about 9 posts that were actually correct and made sense. If you don't know facts about how something works, ask, don't post something you pulled out of your ass.

rage2
10-27-2002, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by 90_Shelby
I really hope that know one is reading this thread to learn more about FI, as I can't believe the amount of uneducated statements being posted. I think I read about 9 posts that were actually correct and made sense. If you don't know facts about how something works, ask, don't post something you pulled out of your ass.

No doubt. Supercharging needs crank/rods/pistons but Turbo's don't? FI is FI, no matter what method of delivery (S/C or Turbo).

Toms-Celica
10-28-2002, 08:24 AM
Well shit, sorry about that slight mistake, comments out of my ass?! The hell?! :guns:

Sophal
10-30-2002, 12:09 AM
turbo better

THREE40SEVEN
11-06-2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by 90_Shelby
I really hope that know one is reading this thread to learn more about FI, as I can't believe the amount of uneducated statements being posted. I think I read about 9 posts that were actually correct and made sense. If you don't know facts about how something works, ask, don't post something you pulled out of your ass.
Curious, was this directed at me? If so, which statements do you think are false?

Toms-Celica
11-06-2002, 09:01 PM
I think they were directed towards me, dont matter, those articles were checked by a ASE certified teacher, I got %100 on all the articles, although it appears I did leave some vital information out.

RGAGT
11-06-2002, 09:14 PM
Where Does Everyone Get the Ideal that if you Supercharge your car you need Crank etc. and not for Turbos :dunno: There are a lot of Supercharged v6 Grandams and 2.3 Iline 4's With out those mods running around and Not a Thing Wrong With them IF would be Better To Due These Things But that Go's For Turbos as well A Turbo is Better because it doesn't Rob Power To make Power :thumbsup:

Boost Infested
11-06-2002, 09:44 PM
bahahhahahaHHAHAHAHAHAHA......................HAHAHAHAHA..............................................









.
.
..
.
.
.

.
HAHAHAHAHHAHA :thumbsdow GOD PLEASE HELP!~:poosie:

Toms-Celica
11-07-2002, 08:43 AM
I fixed that typo... :rolleyes:

SilverRex
11-10-2002, 11:43 PM
By the way, how long can ones turbo last? say for the stock one on the subaru impreza wrx? 3 years-5 years? 10? assuming average driving without abuse.. except ocassionaly track days:)

Asylum
01-07-2005, 01:57 PM
Ok people, here is the straight goods.

First of all if you want an efficient supercharger you need to use a lysholm superchatger. They run as efficient as a turbo and are well suited for higher boost applications. These are used on Merceded AMG cars and on the Saleen s7. Info on various s/c's can be found here

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0107scc_garage/

Remember s/c's and turbo's use similar principals on the back end, the major difference is the front end or drive end of the unit. Where a s/c uses a belt, a turbo uses a turbine driven by exhaust gas pressure.

Big power can be generated from both although personally I prefer a turbo on small displacement applications for ease of tuning.

Remember people that some of the worlds best cars are na, turbo or s/c. All are good given the correct application and tuning.

romeo.el.cobra
07-02-2008, 05:39 PM
i guess if ur not big on getting a shittttttttload of power supercharge it, if you get bored easily with 380 hp get a turbo,

Supa Dexta
07-02-2008, 05:41 PM
:nut: :rofl:

JRSC00LUDE
07-02-2008, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by romeo.el.cobra
i guess if ur not big on getting a shittttttttload of power supercharge it, if you get bored easily with 380 hp get a turbo,

Dude, if you're going to bump a three year old thread at least make it worthwhile.

Minus 7 internet points.

And,


livin an inch of the gro0undd

WTF kind of signature is that???? Use English for starters then, if you get comfortable with it, move on to learning how to spell it. :banghead:

Minus 1000 Internet points.

badatusrnames
07-02-2008, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


Dude, if you're going to bump a three year old thread at least make it worthwhile.

Minus 7 internet points.


:rofl: :rofl: actually, it's a six year old thread that some tool bumped in 2005 and this other tool bumped just now...

And that sig... wtf? :banghead:

Eleanor
07-04-2008, 03:36 PM
He works at the gallery guys, haha

schocker
07-04-2008, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE

Dude, if you're going to bump a three year old thread at least make it worthwhile.


Originally posted by Eleanor
He works at the gallery guys, haha
That makes it worthwhile.
:rofl:

CivicCruiser
08-05-2008, 10:17 PM
Simply put Turbo vs. Supercharger...

Both have advantages and dis-advantages. You as a driver must make the opinion of what is best...

Although in my opinion, Turbo lag and corners are something to consider. xD

Kona9
08-05-2008, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by CivicCruiser
Simply put Turbo vs. Supercharger...

Both have advantages and dis-advantages. You as a driver must make the opinion of what is best...

Although in my opinion, Turbo lag and corners are something to consider. xD

:banghead:

It would be even more funny if CivicCruiser was Romeo.el.Cobra as well.

zipdoa
08-05-2008, 10:39 PM
owned

CivicCruiser
08-05-2008, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Kona9


:banghead:

It would be even more funny if CivicCruiser was Romeo.el.Cobra as well.

I'm sorry I don't follow.

alloroc
08-06-2008, 07:23 AM
Someone lock this.

It is so old and full of misinformation. There is a sticky on this topic in the forced induction section for a reason.

Cheers.

Sorath
08-06-2008, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by CivicCruiser
Simply put Turbo vs. Supercharger...

Both have advantages and dis-advantages. You as a driver must make the opinion of what is best...

Although in my opinion, Turbo lag and corners are something to consider. xD

what the fuck?

08s....

n1zm0
08-06-2008, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by CivicCruiser
I'm sorry I don't follow.
you're too late! no one tell him, we'll just assume it's him.


Originally posted by CivicCruiser
Although in my opinion, Turbo lag and corners are something to consider. xD

+1 wtf for ohhhh 8's as well

arian_ma
08-06-2008, 08:22 AM
How did no one else notice that T5_X has so much useful information in his posts, yet he talks about power kicking in at 50,000 RPM for a turbo and 15,000 for a supercharger. Jesus!

Supa Dexta
08-06-2008, 10:16 AM
You do realize that's turbo/sc rpm not the engines output.. I also believe 15k is the top rpm for sc's, turbos hit 120,000-130,000 I believe generally. Yeah found this:

Usually peak operating speeds for a supercharger are around 15000 rpm for screw-type and roots style superchargers and 40000 rpm for centrifugal-style

Also just seen on turbotechnics:

We are the World's leading manufacturers
of high-speed balancing machines.
Testing turbo cores up to 250,000 RPM,
our latest machine is already used
by many leading turbo repairers.

DAMN! A quarter mil rpm! :burnout:

arian_ma
08-06-2008, 10:19 AM
OH haha I thought he was talking about engine RPM.

Thanks for clearing that up man! :thumbsup:

Chopstixx
08-06-2008, 10:26 AM
PROCHARGER FTW

dude ur a mustang owner
if u have 10 grand buy a procharger get it tuned
and ull be running 500 whp
and well with that much power u give a gtr skyline 10 lengths and ull win with 10 lengths
seen it happen

Supa Dexta
08-06-2008, 10:35 AM
^:confused: :rofl: