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Ekliptix
01-16-2004, 10:25 PM
Welcome to the 500-horsepower club

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt08_z.jpg
As different as fire and ice: The SRT-10 and GT are American, fast, beautiful, and aluminum-intensive --but so unique, as evidenced by their approaches to powerplant philosophy.

By Jack Keebler & Todd Lassa
Motor Trend, January 2004

The Game - Plain and simple: Which of these all-American power players accelerates quickest, handles best, and stops shortest?

The Players - Ford's exotic, heritage inspired, 500-horse GT takes on the only other American sports car packing the same power output, the always-ready Dodge Viper SRT-10.

Enough talk. You demanded a legit, track-test showdown between America's 500-horse contenders. We're here to serve.

Sorry, Bow-Tie boosters, Chevy's Corvette sat this one out. Among the world's best-performance values, even the 405-horsepower Z06 lacks the beans to tee up on this turf. And, as you can tell from our cover and related article in this issue, a new Corvette is on its way, which creates all sorts of future shoot-around possibilities. Stay tuned on that front.

This is a track test, not a road test, so there won't be any cupholder talk, and we couldn't care less about golf-bag capacity. We're here for numbers and an understanding of how these two philosophically and mechanically differing designs, and their disparate technical approaches, get the job done.

Other than the fact that the Fabulous Ford and the Demonic Dodge are both built in Michigan, USA, they couldn't be more mismatched. The Viper uses a steel chassis with composite bodywork, powered by a front-mounted 8.3-liter naturally aspirated overhead-valve V-10. Ford's new GT relies on aluminum alloys for its chassis and coachwork and runs a supercharged, DOHC V-8 mounted amidships. The Viper is a convertible, the GT a coupe.

These guys can't agree on anything. A perfect matchup.

Our Viper was a production SRT-10. The GT assigned to us was prosaically dubbed "Engineering CP-04." That's "confirmation/certification prototype number four" in engineerspeak. In other words, something beyond an initial prototype, but not yet a pure, production piece, either. Of the 15 CPs built, some will be crashed (okay to wince here...), some will do emissions duty, others will serve the Powertrain Gods. And our gritty, well-worn tester is regularly taken out for torture by the ride and handling teams. Still, it's largely representative of what a real GT will perform like, but not quite. 2005 GT production begins this spring.

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt02_z.jpg

Getting 500 horsepower to the ground on street tires isn't easy. Too many revs, and the tires go up in smoke. Too little rpm, and the engine bogs and can fall off its power curve. There's usually a 1-2 or even a tricky 2-3 shift to hang things up. But none of that is your problem; it's just our challenge. We're thrilled to report that both the Viper and GT are up to it, and then some.

Neither the Ford nor the Dodge require a shift before hitting 60 mph, a key ingredient to their respective 3.6- and 3.9-second performances. Indeed, 60 arrives just at the crankshaft-straining first-gear redline in both machines. The Ford's 0.3-second advantage may not sound like a big margin, but in acceleration parlance, it's a lifetime.

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt03_z.jpg

Things tightened up farther down the dragstrip. The GT remained a bumper ahead all the way to 100, which the Viper reached in 8.4 seconds and the GT hit in just 8.1. By the time both cars hit the quarter-mile traps, the Viper caught its breath and managed to nip the GT by just 100th of a second with a slightly lower trap speed of 123.63 versus the GT's 124.31. Yeow. Without electronic timing, it'd be way too close to call.

Thanks to both players' electronic anti-lock systems, multipot calipers, and massive brake rotors, stopping requires far less driver skill than laying down a John Force-quality launch. Standing on the GT's pedal from 60 mph nailed six stops all at less than 115 feet with no cool down in between runs (brakes take the inertial energy of the vehicle and convert it into a zillion calories of heat energy, which is then dissipated into the air by the rotors). Thomas Reichenbach, the GT's vehicle-engineering manager, claims the car has stopped in as little as 107 feet during Ford's testing, with the brake pads up to maximum temp. We tried several 80-to-0 stops in an attempt to warm things up a bit; a final 60-to-0 stop yielded 111 feet, as fade-free and linear feeling as on the first run. Our seatbelt bruises are finally fading, thanks.

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt05_z.jpg

Although we attempt to keep things as equal as possible, our Viper was tested on what might've been a slightly grippier section of test-track pavement. Dodge also equips the car with bigger-rubber contact patches. Stopping the Viper was even more like hitting a wall, taking a staggeringly short 97 feet to haul down from 60 to 0. And, like the GT, it could repeat the deed over and over, with no heat-related fade. That's how far braking and tire technology have come. In the stopping department, the Viper is record-setting, the GT merely outstanding.

We usually address handling and ride at the same time. But, obviously, these cars are handling-biased to the extreme. We didn't have the opportunity to sample them back to back on public roads. And this GT was equipped with decidedly nonproduction carbon-fiber bucket seats that gave a false impression of a harder ride than what customers can expect. Between track runs, we gathered some impressions on a variety of the smooth and not-so-smooth pavement ribboned throughout our closed-course test locale.

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt07_z.jpg

That said, we'll stick our necks out to interpolate that the GT has better ride characteristics than the infamously stiff Viper. The GT has the longer wheelbase, which reduces ride motions. It runs on slightly smaller wheels and tires, which means lower unsprung mass. This also tends to be an asset in ride quality. Another reason the GT's hard buckets muddied our impression is because the Viper has comfortable, supportive seats with curve-handy side bolstering.

Both of these muscle/sports cars exhibited high levels of grip and impressive handling during our slalom test. Few hot rides can do the 600-foot cone dance as quickly as these two-seaters; anything over 70 mph is serious stuff. This pair qualified, with the Ford nipping the Dodge by 1.1 mph (71.5 versus 70.4). The GT is so together it somehow feels like it's going slower than it actually is.

It takes less time to get friendly with the GT. We learned the handling limits with ease because there's more clear feedback about what's going on where the rubber meets the road. At the limits of adhesion, we could detect even slight chassis yaw earlier in the Ford than in the Viper and counter-steer corrections into the equation. All said, the Ford enjoys better overall chassis balance and a more progressive, precise, and lighter steering feel.

The previous-generation Viper had a reputation for punishing slow-reacting and inattentive drivers. It had high limits, but they were never reached or communicated to the cockpit in anything resembling a progressive manner. The SRT-10 has much-improved on-limit handling behavior and feedback. But the chassis still feels a tad numb, at least as compared with the mongoose-quick GT. Without an electronic stability-control system to lean on, Viper pilots are well-advised to restrict oversteer tricks to the track, while keeping the cell-phone holstered.

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt04_z.jpg
The Viper's cabin is a much more hospitable place than the 1992-2002 RT/10's was. The driving position is excellent, with a big tach front and center and ancillary gauges just to the driver's right.

The views from their respective cockpits are different in some ways, similar in others. Like the original, Ford's GT is encapsulating; the driver is enveloped in its cabin, and rearward visibility presents a few blind spots. But it feels great and makes you want to strap on a helmet and whistle down the Mulsanne straight at Le Mans. The Viper, being a convertible, offers a visual version of surround sound.

These cars are completely different in the audio department, too: The hyper-Ford burbles in classic V-8 tones from out behind you somewhere, the steady rumble overlaid by the barely perceptible whine of the supercharger. The SRT-10's sidepipes spit and warble out their own V-10 voice, with mechanical rumblings heard--and felt--from just ahead of the radio.

Forget picking a clear winner here. As an enthusiast, your design or brand preference (or the price difference) are as important as anything we say. And both machines are obviously incredible performers. The Viper's existence spurred Ford's hunger to build a halo machine--and we hear the future Z06 will have the 500 or so horsepower needed to play a round with these two next time.

Both cabins offer variations on the black-plastic-and-leather theme, with splashes of aluminum, or aluminum-like plastic, trim bits to brighten things up. Each provides a full complement of racing-style instrumentation with the tach centered inside the steering-wheel rim, although the GT's gauge faces are black, while the Viper has white units. The Dodge's buckets are friendly and supportive, but proved narrow for wider drivers; we'll withhold judgment on the Ford's chairs until we put in a 500-mile day on production seating.

This pair of 500-horsepower players are screaming-bargains when compared with high-ticket foreign goods. It's worth noting that the Viper delivers objective performance generally on par with that of the GT for about 40-percent-less money. The heritage-inspired Ford packs more tech and is a more sophisticated piece, so its higher price is justified--but that in no way diminishes the SRT-10's impressive punch-per-penny quotient.

Meet you back at the club.

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt06_z.jpg
The GT's heritage-inspired instrument layout, splashes of aluminum trim, and modern-day rocker-switches.

-----

Underneath Ford and Dodge's Supercars

The GT and SRT-10's space-frame construction is somewhat similar. Both rely on a super-stiff endoskeleton of stressed, welded beams. But what dem bones are made of differs from a materials and layout standpoint.

Ford employs an aluminum frame composed of various extrusions, castings, and stampings wrapped by unstressed aluminum bodywork. The Viper's rigid chassis is a complex, welded-steel space frame, carrying a (mostly) non-loaded skin of sheet-molded and reaction-injection molded composite plastic.

Both cars are functionally, though not technically, mid-engined; just look at their weight distributions in the spec chart. But the Ford is more obviously so. Neil Hannemann, Ford GT's chief program engineer, helped develop them. He describes being part of the Viper and GT programs as "once-in-a-lifetime experiences that happened to him twice." He says both required a small, highly dedicated team of empowered enthusiasts to bring the cars to market. The major difference on the GT was the amount of Ford computing power available to do things like stress and thermal analysis.

"In 1989, when we did the Viper, it was just a big room with a bunch of people and drawingboards. With the GT, there wasn't a drawingboard in sight. In fact, we didn't even have a table to lay a drawing on." Neil adds that road manners were higher priority on the Ford program than they were with that raw, unadulterated Viper of the early 1990s. "In the end, we got a better track car with very few compromises for the road."--J.K. & T.L.

-----

Comparision Chart

2005 Dodge Viper SRT-10
2005 Ford GT

POWERTRAIN/CHASSIS

Drivetrain layout
Front engine, rwd
Mid-engine, rwd

Engine type
90* V-10, aluminum block/heads
90* V-8, aluminum block/heads

Valve gear
OHV, 2 valves/cyl
DOHC, 4 valves/cyl

Bore x stroke in/mm
4.03x3.96 / 102.4x100.6
3.55x4.16 / 90.2x105.8

Displacement, ci/cc
505.1/8277
330.1/5409

Compression ratio
9.6:1
8.4:1

Max horsepower @ rpm
500 @ 5600
500 @ 6000

Max torque @ rpm
525 @ 4200
500 @ 4500

Redline rpm
6000
6500

Engine rpm @ 60 mph
1200
1515

Transmission
6-speed manual
6-speed manual

Axle/final-drive ratio:
3.07 / 1.54
3.36 / 2.12

Suspension front; rear
Upper and lower control arms,coil springs, anti-roll bar, upper and lower control arms, coil, springs, anti-roll bar
Upper and lower control arms, coil springs, anti-roll bar; upper and lower control arms, coil springs, anti-roll bar

Brakes, f/r
14.0-in vented disc, 14.0-in vented disc, ABS
14.0-in vented disc, 13.2-in vented disc, ABS

Wheels, f/r
10.0x18; 13.0x19, forged aluminum
9.0x18; 11.5x19, forged aluminum

Tires, f/r
275/35ZR18; 345/30ZR19, Michelin Pilot Sport
235/45ZR18; 315/40ZR19, Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_vipandgt01_l.jpg

DIMENSIONS

Seating capacity
2
2

Wheelbase, in
98.8
106.7

Track, f/r, in
61.6/60.9
63.0/63.7

Length, in
175.6
182.8

Width, in
75.2
76.9

Height, in
47.6
44.3

Turning circle, ft
40.5
40.0

Headroom, in
36.5
35.4

Legroom, in
42.4
44.6

Shoulder room, in
54.1
57.7

Curb weight, lb
3410
3400

Weight, f/r, %
48/52
43/57

Fuel capacity, gal
18.5
17.5

TEST DATA

Acceleration, sec
0-30 mph
1.7
1.7

0-40 mph
2.4
2.3

0-50 mph
3.0
2.9

0-60 mph
3.9
3.6

0-70 mph
4.8
4.7

0-80 mph
5.8
5.6

0-90 mph
7.0
6.5

0-100 mph
8.4
8.1

1/4 mile, sec @ mph
11.77 @ 123.63
11.78 @ 124.31

Braking, 60-0 mph, ft
97
111

600-ft slalom, mph
70.4
71.5

CONSUMER INFO

On sale in U.S.
Currently
May 2004

Base price
$80,995
$139,995

Airbags
Dual front
Dual front

Basic warranty
3 yrs/36,000 miles
3 yrs/36,000 miles

Powertrain warranty
7 yrs/70,000 miles
3 yrs/36,000 miles

EPA mpg, city/hwy
12/20
14/21

Range, miles, city/hwy
222/370
245/368

http://www.motortrend.com/motor/images/spacer.gif

Ekliptix
01-16-2004, 10:26 PM
2005 Dodge Viper SRT-10

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_2.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_3.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_6.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_7.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_8.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_9.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_10.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_11.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_12.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/gallery/img/viper/enlarge_13.jpg

http://www.dodge.com/viper/

2005 Ford GT

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_1.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_2.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_3.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_4.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_10.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_5.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_6.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_7.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_9.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/images/photo_gallery/ph_gt_popup_12.jpg

http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/home.asp?bhcp=1

04blackMAX
01-16-2004, 10:33 PM
i really like the GT40,,, dunno about the price, but none the less cool car

Khyron
01-16-2004, 10:59 PM
Man I've been drooling over the GT40 since the concept drawings were leaked. And all the nay-sayers said it would never survive into production. Makes me so happy that they were wrong even if I'll never be able to afford one.

Khyron

1badPT
01-16-2004, 11:47 PM
Wow both Supercars rock, I'd take either, or both. no not both, i'd die of overstimulation :tongue: But I wouldn't be able to make my mind up nonetheless. :love:

Focus
01-17-2004, 01:26 AM
:drool: :drool: :drool: :burnout:

WHOA!!

powerslave
01-17-2004, 02:42 PM
Here's a question, why is it that every Viper, since the early 90s has had only 2 valves/cylinder? Couldn't they go with at least 4 and bump up that 6000 redline? Or am I just totally wrong and should let Dodge engineers worry about thier car, not me?

lude_conduct
01-17-2004, 05:28 PM
Because it's not a dual overhead cam engine. Having 4 valves per cylinder is hard with pushrods.
Note that dohc or even sohc engines aren't always the best solution, especially as engines get bigger. It tends to take up a lot more space and add a lot more weight to the engine for the relative to the benefits that it offers.

mo_virgin
01-18-2004, 01:27 AM
I love the GT but the seats look sorta uncomfy

euro_racer
01-18-2004, 01:39 AM
the ford is my choice:thumbsup:

Big_C_racing
01-18-2004, 02:09 AM
Saw one of the old Gt40's out at racecity a while back and have been hooked ever since. That's a real hard choice though, the viper is also an amazing car......too bad I dont got the money!

5.9 R/T
01-18-2004, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by powerslave
Here's a question, why is it that every Viper, since the early 90s has had only 2 valves/cylinder? Couldn't they go with at least 4 and bump up that 6000 redline? Or am I just totally wrong and should let Dodge engineers worry about thier car, not me?

While lude makes a good point the real reason leads back to the orginal viper and the fact that it was designed as a throw back the muscle car days, big displacement, big power, RWD, very little technology. For example, up until I believe 1998 the Viper did not come with ABS. The "new" motor in the current viper is basically the old 8L V10 bored or stroked or both to 8.3L for the extra power. Who needs a 9000rpm redline when you already have 500hp and 525lb/ft of tq?

Ben
01-18-2004, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by 5.9 R/T

Who needs a 9000rpm redline when you already have 500hp and 525lb/ft of tq?

Not to mention a FLAT Torque curve that delivers huge power at all RPM's instead of nothing below 5000.

Troy
01-18-2004, 07:21 PM
ford emblem looks out of place on the GT40

InfraRed
02-05-2004, 02:41 AM
I bet the foreign supercars are easier to drive. I hear the Viper takes a helluva driver. The GT's gaol when created wasn't to dominate the US. It was to spank Ferraris in performance & price. It did just that.
If I could afford a supercar I'd get the Ford just because it isn't played out like Ferraris.:tongue:

rc2002
02-05-2004, 11:23 AM
Awesome post! It's about time Ford brought back thte GT40.

403Gemini
02-05-2004, 02:47 PM
are those sucktion cups on the seats in the ford? lol i love the interior of the ford looks so... so deadly!!!

Ducati
02-05-2004, 04:29 PM
Suction Cups? My suction cup is in my butt. Shpincter suction would keep me firmly attached to the seat. I'd lose my license in a few months if I had the GT.

A2VR6
02-05-2004, 09:19 PM
Those two are pure sex on wheels... I must admit though, i like the mid-engine layout better than a front engine (in my opinion) and the GT is just a beautiful car inside and out. :drool:

avsfan
02-24-2004, 12:24 AM
I drove a viper to prom 6 years ago and damn..... whiplash and you better buckle up your manhood or your screwed. Price wise, you get a lot more for your $70 g's at than you do a GT or anything above $140 g's even though I couldn't afford it till it was a couple years USED and thats still a longshot.

cappachihngo
02-24-2004, 12:41 AM
hmmmm sweet viper....:drool:

heavyD
02-24-2004, 09:03 AM
Ha Ha Ha! The climate controls & cd player in the Viper are straight out of an Intrepid. You think Dodge could have at least upgraded that equipment. That said, I still prefer the Viper of the two.

t3rry
02-24-2004, 09:06 AM
i got ro ride around the roadcourse in a RHD gt40 a few years back it was unbeleivable how much power that thing had... and that one was stock... it feels so wierd since it was rhd :D

Dave
02-24-2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Troy
ford emblem looks out of place on the GT40

Care to back up your statement? An please don't say because ford suck's. It seems that most people who hate Ford don't have any reasons/examples to back it up.

heavyD
02-24-2004, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Dave


Care to back up your statement? An please don't say because ford suck's. It seems that most people who hate Ford don't have any reasons/examples to back it up.

All Fords are ugly!

Dave
02-24-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by heavyD


All Fords are ugly!

Thank you for your example of having no reason to hate ford.

frostyda9
02-24-2004, 05:57 PM
Both cars are nice but I think the GT just has more of an aggressive, down low stance that makes it look supercar-esque.

1200 RPM for the Viper at 60MPH...must be nice. My poor little Integra spins well into the 3000's @ 60 in 5th

86max
02-26-2004, 11:27 AM
ya i've noticed that, people just hear someone else bashing ford and they go along with it.......most girls i've talked to bash ford but then they're going on about how mustangs are sweet, so i tell them it is a ford, then they're dumbfounded

my family's owned fords forever, never had ONE problem other than normal maintenance, but the resale value sucks

i beleive lots of fords are ugly, but definitely not all..... looking forward to seeing these new mustangs on the road soon

heavyD
02-26-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by 86max
ya i've noticed that, people just hear someone else bashing ford and they go along with it.......most firls i've talked to bash ford but then they're going on about how muctangs are sweet, so i tell them it is a ford, then they're dumbfounded

my family's owned fords forever, never had ONE problem other than normal maintenance, but the resale value sucks

i beleive lots of fords are ugly, but definitely not all..... looking forward to seeing these new mustangs on the road soon

New Mustangs are ugly too!

Souzen
02-27-2004, 01:51 PM
Man...I'm not a big fan of domestic cars, but I know an awesome car when I see one...and these are some awesome cars...I'd have to say I favor the Viper, though. :hitit: I've always liked them (even though I've told people different to piss them off :D), ever since I was young, haha...I know, it's biased, but oh well. XD

But that Ford GT is totally orgasm-inducing...man, just give me 10 minutes alone with the both of them...I'd probably get my license suspended for the rest of my life :rofl:

Hollywood
02-27-2004, 10:14 PM
GT40 all they way!!! One of my fav cars of all time.

heavyD
02-28-2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Hollywood
GT40 all they way!!! One of my fav cars of all time.

You have low expectations. Ferrari has made many cars that put it to shame.

5.9 R/T
02-28-2004, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by heavyD


You have low expectations. Ferrari has made many cars that put it to shame.

All Ferrari's are ugly.

heavyD
02-28-2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by 5.9 R/T


All Ferrari's are ugly.

Ha Ha! Funny.:nut:

5.9 R/T
02-28-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by heavyD


Ha Ha! Funny.:nut:

Proove me wrong.

Toms-Celica
02-28-2004, 06:36 PM
Well come on' wheres the proof?

INeedBoost
03-02-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by heavyD


You have low expectations. Ferrari has made many cars that put it to shame.

Really? I heard the GT40 was made to put Ferrari to shame. Which it did. Winning 1st, 2nd and 3rd in Le Mans. Long time ago. I don't know too much about this stuff, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Think Car and Driver compared the Ford GT and Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale. Guess which came first? The GT40 has also been one of my favorite cars of all time. So I would have to pick the GT.

heavyD
03-02-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by 5.9 R/T


Proove me wrong.

Yawn. You guys still posting in this thread? When things started getting stupid like guys starting to compare Fords to Ferraris, I bailed out. There isn't enough time in life to waste it arguing with ignorants.:whipped:

INeedBoost
03-02-2004, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by heavyD


Yawn. You guys still posting in this thread? When things started getting stupid like guys starting to compare Fords to Ferraris, I bailed out. There isn't enough time in life to waste it arguing with ignorants.:whipped:

Funny how you should say that. Because you were the ignorant ass who started the bashing and the comparing.

5.9 R/T
03-03-2004, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by heavyD


Yawn. You guys still posting in this thread? When things started getting stupid like guys starting to compare Fords to Ferraris, I bailed out. There isn't enough time in life to waste it arguing with ignorants.:whipped:

Why don't you take that single turbo on your POS 2L DSM and ram it up your ass? I would use my foot but I think you would like that a little too much.

PS Please don't respond as I don't have the time to argue with someone that is obviously much more intelligent then myself. :rolleyes: