Import an M3, Porsche 968 or Integra Type R?

[mslbebiz]

Hey guys

I'm stuck, can't decide between importing an E36 M3, Porsche 968 or Integra Type R.

I'm looking for something with the best driving dynamics possible, hence my 3 choices. But I'm at a place in my life where I can finally afford to start going to the track, and would like this car to double for track duty, or I would consider buying something separate like a cheap CR-X SiR or MX-5 for track days.

Reliability, cost of ownership/maintenance and most importantly handling are my deciding factors.

All 3 cars are similarly priced to import. The ITR has a disadvantage as it's RHD, but would easily be the most reliable and affordable to maintain. However I definitely like the higher-end nature of the M3 and 968. The question is how hard/costly are they to maintain, and are they reliable?

Has anyone owned a Euro-spec M3 from Japan, or a Porsche 968 before that can comment? Anyone driven all 3 that can comment on which is the best driver's car?

Thanks!

[rage2]

The 968 is pretty much a rebodied 944S2/Turbo. Can't speak for the engine on the 968 (I had a 944 turbo), but prepare for a money pit if you're going to track the car. Great handling car on the street, but at the track when you're pushing it, it just understeers a lot. The only oversteer I can get out of it was from power oversteer, which would be tough with the 240hp NA motor at this elevation. You'd have to stiffen it up to the point of unstreetable to get it to handle well at the track, especially with today's grippier tires.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by mslbebiz

Has anyone owned a Euro-spec M3 from Japan, or a Porsche 968 before that can comment? Anyone driven all 3 that can comment on which is the best driver's car?

Thanks!

Grassroots Motorsports has done buying guides for both Type-R's and the BMW M3 series.

I'm curious as to your price range though... why are you importing? Those cars aren't going to be much cheaper than buying locally. After having recently imported a JDM vehicle, it's a pain in the ass even if you get a broker to do it for you. You'll easily spend $1k alone making it pass the OOP if you play by the rules.

Personally, I'd go with the M3, simply because it is faster. Having done quite a bit of racing, it's fine to say "learn in a slower car, become the best you can", but unless you are being serious about racing and not just doing it for fun, moar power is never a bad thing IMO. :D

Also, you currently can only import a '96 M3... not the best year from what I understand (later ones have the issues fixed). And if you can afford a 968, why not an E46 M3? That would be the best one for a DD/track car.

[mslbebiz]

From what I understand the 968 is definitely more expensive to maintain than the others. As good as they are supposed to be for handling, I'm not sure they're worth the hassle/expense even if only used on the street and I bought a separate track car.

All of these cars are under $10k imported for a very nice condition, low mileage example. A comparable local 968 would cost at least $15k, an E36 M3 probably $12-13k, and an Integra Type R probably around $10-$12k, if you can even find one.

Pretty much every E46 M3 I've seen has been in the $20's for the kind of mileage/condition I'd want to buy.

The E36's available for import are the 3.0L single vanos system cars, with what I understand to be the most solid motors. It was the later 3.2L's with double vanos that had a lot of problems I believe.

How are maintenance/repair costs on the M3's?

[blibbertibs]

My friend imported an M3 from Japan. It comes with the 280 hp Euro engine rather than the 240 hp engine NA received. I think he paid close to $13,000 in total. The exterior was fairly mint, but the interior could use some work.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by mslbebiz

All of these cars are under $10k imported for a very nice condition, low mileage example.

Please show me examples of this. Getting even a WRX over here (the cheapest of the cheap) would have cost over $5000 for a beat one if I did everything myself. I'm currently at $6500, including getting it to Alberta, paying a broker $1200 and making it legal to pass the OOP (and I didn't have to do any DOT things like tires or headlights or DRL's, etc).

I'm not trying to argue, but unless you have imported before, you will be surprised at how much it costs and the hassles involved. Just trying to be helpful and save you the headache :thumbsup:

Edit-
And to get a TRULY nice one (like you are talking about, that doesn't have door dings or has been "magically" repainted at some point in its life or a rolled back odo), all of those are over $10k cars once finally here and legal to drive. Every, single, last one of them.

[mslbebiz]

Hmmm, you may be right as I've never imported before.

I'm going off sales statistics at http://auc.jdmconnection.ca

If you search for any of the vehicles I listed you'll be able to see what the average sale price is. I think you need to have an account there though to do this.

I find it hard to believe though that of dozens of sales of each of these cars around the average price, that they're all in such bad condition like you're saying (???)

I've heard of others importing LHD cars from Japan because you can get a nicer, lower mileage example for less money that way. So far in my research that seems true, but maybe that's not the case after all.

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by mslbebiz

I find it hard to believe though that of dozens of sales of each of these cars around the average price, that they're all in such bad condition like you're saying (???)


First off:

I've dealt with William, he is FANTASTIC to deal with. $1200 for his services is a screaming deal in my opinion. I just finished importing my STi.

Second, those YEN prices you are converting to canadian dollars? That is the PURCHASE price at the auction. I bought my STi for, get this, $1500cdn. So, tack about another $5k onto those auction prices when all is said and done. Broker, $1200, shipping costs close to $3k, getting it to Alberta is another $500 minimum, OOP (NOT including any repairs is $150), dock fees, storage fees, the list goes on.

In my (humble and modest opinion), it really isn't worth importing if you can get the vehicle in North America. I've seen very clean (but sort of high mileage, say 150,000km) Canadian E36 M3's for around the $10k mark. Same with Type R's. They just don't pop up that often. You can also easily get them from the states, with lower mileage for the same price.

Go to jdmvip.com, the knowledge over there is second to none. Any questions you have, they will be able to answer. And yes, even the "mintest" of the mint auction cars are still auction cars, and there can be issues with them that are not reported.

[mslbebiz]

You're definitely making some good points.

I am adding $4,500 in fees to the converted yen price of the auction vehicles. That's what I was told is the general cost to get the vehicle here, plus $140 OOP and any mandatory work required. Isn't that $4,500 supposed to cover all the hassles for the person importing a vehicle? haha

Bringing a vehicle up from the states is a good idea, but it seems like such a huge PITA. Are there any services that locate and import them from the US?

[HiTempguy1]

Originally posted by mslbebiz

Bringing a vehicle up from the states is a good idea, but it seems like such a huge PITA. Are there any services that locate and import them from the US?

Honestly, my father did it with his 2002 Camaro, and if he can do it... anyone can :rofl: The only issue with that is dealing with RIV and then you have to have an out of country (or whatever inspection) that ONLY Canadian Tire does. So basically, get the nicest one you can so Canadian Tire can't go "we're failing it, pay us $3k to fix it and we'll pass it".

Also, I don't know where you are converting your prices from. Xe.com shows that (for a typical, grade 4 auction 1993-1996 M3, which averages about 500,000 yen) shows $6000cdn. So right there, adding $4500 on top gets you over $10k. Plus, its an auction vehicle, so you have no way of knowing what is wrong with it. Not a bad price, but for a couple grand more you could bring one up from the states, and resale will be much higher on the USA model. Same with Type R's, they go for the same price. And as for the 968, while cooler, is NOT worth it (I've wanted one forever, but it could never be a DD).

[slinkie]

Edit I'd get a NA e36 m3

[mslbebiz]

Well looks like I'm leaning towards importing from the states, or buying locally now - thanks HiTemp.

BTW: The conversion on the M3's worked out to around $8-$10.5k imported, with a max for the very highest 4.5 auction grade, lowest mile cars of about $12k. But looks like it may just be easier and more practical to get an NA M3 or ITR. I've scratched the 968 off the list thanks to the advice here.

Any other cars I should consider that I haven't thought of?

[soloracer]

Originally posted by rage2
The 968 is pretty much a rebodied 944S2/Turbo. Can't speak for the engine on the 968 (I had a 944 turbo), but prepare for a money pit if you're going to track the car. Great handling car on the street, but at the track when you're pushing it, it just understeers a lot. The only oversteer I can get out of it was from power oversteer, which would be tough with the 240hp NA motor at this elevation. You'd have to stiffen it up to the point of unstreetable to get it to handle well at the track, especially with today's grippier tires.

I remember reading that the 968 chassis is considerably stiffer than the 944/951 which should translate into a better handling car.

I haven't noticed any understeer in my 968......in fact it oversteers a lot.....even in a straight line.... ;)

[Maxt]

Originally posted by soloracer


I remember reading that the 968 chassis is considerably stiffer than the 944/951 which should translate into a better handling car.

I haven't noticed any understeer in my 968......in fact it oversteers a lot.....even in a straight line.... ;)
Thats because it leaks so much oil... :)...

[C4S]

I assume you are talking about E30 M3?

[2Legit2Quit]

Saw this one for sale on here, mileage is kinda high but for it's year it's understandable. Looks to be in good condition though

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/336583/bmw-m3-alpine-white/

[mslbebiz]

^ That M3 looks pretty nice, and it's definitely the right color. But with mileage already that high it's gonna be worth much less in a couple years because IME nobody wants an old M3 with 200k+ on it.

I've looked around some in the states and so far the prices seem comparable to here :dunno:. Not much benefit in bringing something up it seems. And still can't find much in the way of ITR's for sale.

What websites is everyone using to locate cars in the US?

Hell, maybe I should just look at a local AP1 S2000 or 350Z. Thing is I only wanted to spend around $10k now, and enjoy that car for a year or two before moving up to spend $15-$20k on something like an S2K or 350Z. I like to buy my cars outright so financing is a no go.

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Maxt

Thats because it leaks so much oil... :)...

At least it runs ........ ;)

[97luder]

importing is not hard at all just got to know what shops are good and to spend 1k on a car to pass an OPI is not bad at least you know your car is going to be in top shape

just watch what shop you take it to so ppl will call shit that is fine just to make there money and attitude i find is every thing, go in there being a dick and there not gonna let you off with any thing

[Redlyne_mr2]

If you're looking to import one of these cars just to save a $1000 you shouldn't be buying any of them. They're all fairly expensive to keep serviced. The only real reason for you to want to import is because youll usually find a better condition car in the US>

[soloracer]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
If you're looking to import one of these cars just to save a $1000 you shouldn't be buying any of them. They're all fairly expensive to keep serviced. The only real reason for you to want to import is because youll usually find a better condition car in the US>

Or if you are looking for certain colors or options that you can't find locally.

[jaysas_63]

this thread reminded me of:

_jPaYnaKVDk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jPaYnaKVDk

:rofl:

as said above, buying a Porsche or m3 when 1 grand is a huge factor is a pretty big mistake.

[mslbebiz]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
If you're looking to import one of these cars just to save a $1000 you shouldn't be buying any of them. They're all fairly expensive to keep serviced. The only real reason for you to want to import is because youll usually find a better condition car in the US>

I never said anything $1k being a huge factor? When I was originally looking at the idea of importing the difference seemed more like $3-5k. That would be worth it to me if I can find a nice example, otherwise I'd just stick with local. Or go to the states to find the condition and color I wanted, as suggested.

The service costs shouldn't be a problem (except for maybe the 968, doesn't seem worth the maintenance costs so it's out), but the reason for the ~$10k budget is so I can buy a car soon. I'd rather get something decent I can enjoy for a year or two than keep saving right now. I can always upgrade later. When you're used to driving a nice car and currently drive an Xterra you *thought* you'd need for work, patience isn't easy haha.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by mslbebiz


I never said anything $1k being a huge factor? When I was originally looking at the idea of importing the difference seemed more like $3-5k. That would be worth it to me if I can find a nice example, otherwise I'd just stick with local. Or go to the states to find the condition and color I wanted, as suggested.

The service costs shouldn't be a problem (except for maybe the 968, doesn't seem worth the maintenance costs so it's out), but the reason for the ~$10k budget is so I can buy a car soon. I'd rather get something decent I can enjoy for a year or two than keep saving right now. I can always upgrade later. When you're used to driving a nice car and currently drive an Xterra you *thought* you'd need for work, patience isn't easy haha.

By the time it comes out in the wash and you've paid your shipping, duty etc it shouldn't be 3-5K. Don't get me wrong, I like to save money just like the next guy but with cars like these your most valuable asset is the ability to be able to see the car in person, get a full inspection and history as cars like these can have a lot of skeletons in their closets. I've had lots of friends buy older US Porsches only to put $5K plus into them once they receive them because the cars were so badly neglected. E36 M3's for the Canadian market are also a better equipped car than what the US received.

[Hakkola]

I thought you could get an S2000 for around 10g now?

Just did a quick search and found these.

http://autos.yahoo.com/used-cars/honda-s2000-overview

[euro_racer]

^^haha beat me to it... for your price range, you could easily get an s2000 locally and IMO it would be better then all the cars you listed. nice summer car, great track/"fun" car

[mslbebiz]

I've always wanted an S2000, but thought they were more like $15k+ so I was planning to get one of these later. If I can get one around $10k that'd be a no brainer for me, LOVE those cars. Thanks for the link!

Looks like the 350Z's are in that $10k range now, too. These sound so sexy with a Nismo exhaust, they're super tempting just on that alone. I've had a couple older Z cars and loved them - '73 240Z and a Z31 NA 300ZX, and I've driven a Z32 300ZX. I don't have any seat time in a Z33 though.

How does the Z33 stack up against the S2K for those that have driven or owned both? There's not much in it on a track from what I've seen of my Best Motoring Youtube addiction, but the Z usually comes out on top. For an overall exciting driver's car the S2k would probably win though.

[rage2]

I've driven both. The S2K is like a go-kart, while the Z33 is a sports coupe that's really luxurious compared to the S2K.

If you spend more time on the road, the 350Z is the way to go. If you spend more time on the track or just want a fun weekend car, the S2K is the way to go. I couldn't daily drive a S2K, but that's because I'm old now.