Tiptronic/Steptronic/Smart shift

[Manhattan]

A lot of cars have these options but does anyone actually need this? I usually try it out once or twice when I get bored driving but it seems unnecessary and doesn't add much if anything to the driving experience. Who actually uses these functions?

[J-hop]

I don't get them either, I used to try to use them when driving cars at the rental place I used to work at but having driven standard since I had my learners I can't stand the detached feeling these systems have.

I still hear people try to claim "it's just like driving a standard except you don't have to clutch".... RIIIIGHHHT, and riding a bike with training wheels is just like riding a regular bike except you don't have to balance :facepalm:

[Xtrema]

Really, this topic again?
8UGdz35sTy8

[Troll-ol]

Solution - get a standard and call it a day

[Tik-Tok]

My audi has tip. I use it whenever I'm merging onto Deerfoot, to keep the RPMS above 3000k, so I don't have turbo lag when I finish the corner and want to pass the guy in front of me who thinks its fine to enter Deerfoot at 40km/h.

Other than that... pretty much forget about it.

[Maybelater]

I had it in my Volvo and I thought it was fun if you wanted to piss around, otherwise, it didn't serve much purpose.

[AE92_TreunoSC]

Just a neat selling feature.

I have piss loads of fun on the Nissan CVT's that have it.

It's self defeating on a CVT, but its a lot more fun, you just have to pretend its going faster and enjoy it for what it is.

Juke's are way more fun with CVT paddleshifting then the standard 6 speed. Even though its slower.

But in the end on any slush box, Drive "sport" is always faster. Especially on trannys like the NAG1 or the 7Gtronics etc.

[frizzlefry]

I have a 2009 A3 3.2 S-Line and it has the DSG paddles. I like it, but not all tip transmissions are equal. I had a tiptronic “manual mode” on my 2004 A6 and it was pretty much useless. But the DSG is awesome. Only complaint is that the pedals move with the wheel which hinders the ability to use them during turns. I use the pedals mostly to hold a lower gear in high traffic so I can quickly zip into an opening in the lane next to me, or if its winter and I want some engine braking going down a hill. Tap the left pedal, goes into manual mode, shifts down and holds the gear. Hold the right pedal in for 2 seconds and it goes back into drive mode so you don’t have to dick around with the shift stock. If I am driving aggressively I just use sport mode. It turns the car into an outright BEAST. I have never seen a sport mode so damn aggressive before. It’s awesome. Pretty much shifts down as soon as you tap the brake. Plus with the DSG on the 3.2 A3 you get launch control. Turn off traction control, stability control, put it in sport mode, hold the brake while you slam the gas…keeps it at 3100 RPM until you lift your foot of the brake. The DSG tip is worth it for that alone. It’s a riot.

[dirtsniffer]

dsg or dual clutch is diferent in my opinion from tiptronic.

torque converters are ghey

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
torque converters are ghey

Not that bad on a 8sp Audi I tried recently, the shift is only a tad slower than my DSG and much faster than the old tiptronic.

It's doesn't matter. Manual will eventually be only available on niche high margin products. EPA #s will spell the doom of the heel/toe.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Not that bad on a 8sp Audi I tried recently, the shift is only a tad slower than my DSG and much faster than the old tiptronic.

It's doesn't matter. Manual will eventually be only available on niche high margin products. EPA #s will spell the doom of the heel/toe.

I pitty the next few generations of young tuners, unless you are a mechanic buy trade, good luck ever servicing these transmissions.

what was so wrong with the manual transmission? yea sure these paddle shifting dual clutch thing-a-ma-jigs are cool for "tuners" who have shops build them cars and who never have to deal with the headaches, but what about the backyard joe who wrenches everything himself?

100 years from now i bet U of C will be offering autotech degrees because vehicle systems are going to be so complex only someone with a 4 year degree and 5 years work experience will be able to even attempt working on these cars.

hyperbole aside I honestly think car manufactures are trying to make it so only their trained technicians can service vehicles.

[AE92_TreunoSC]

Factory techs like myself will never service anything internal on a transmission.

All manufacturers want cores and to rebuild them in separate specialised facilities. I believe only common truck transmissions like the 4l60 are still being rebuilt in house.


There's really not a lot to the DSG in comparison to the standard manual gear box. It's just a special input shaft and two actuated clutch mechanisms.

Compare that to what has happened to engine and valve management and you find that everything has been progressively getting more complicated, but not to the point of needing degrees.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by J-hop


I pitty the next few generations of young tuners, unless you are a mechanic buy trade, good luck ever servicing these transmissions.


These transmissions, at least the older gen Audi tiptronic, are designed to never be serviced. The DSG does have a service at 40,000 miles. A how-to can be found here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=169356
But overall the VAG transmissions are basically designed to be replaced if required. Not repaired. I asked my Audi dealership about cracking open my 2004 A6's tiptronic transmission and flushing it and was told that Audi won't let them do it. So not even the tech in Calgary certified to service the V10 R8 is allowed to crack a tip transmission open. Its not that they are making it so you can't service it, no one can. Of course there are DIY articles for almost all VAG transmissions all over the internet if a warrenty is not an issue.

[J-hop]

imagine even 20 years from now some poor kid trying to source a new tiptronic transmission for there 2011 audi or something because they blew theirs.

Basically you can't keep one of these cars for your lifetime. My family has two vehicles with 300,000+ on them which were kept for the simple fact they are great vehicles and very reliable. One of them did require a transmission rebuild recently(not because it died but as preventative maintenance), imagine if that were a new tiptronic transmission, the car would have to be garbaged as it would cost several times the vehicles worth to source a new transmission.

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by AE92_TreunoSC
...
There's really not a lot to the DSG in comparison to the standard manual gear box. ...

i heard replacing the clutches for the dual clutch m3 is like 3500. :eek:

[G-ZUS]

Originally posted by J-hop
One of them did require a transmission rebuild recently(not because it died but as preventative maintenance)


First time I hear of anyone rebuilding a transmission as preventative maintenance

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Originally posted by G-ZUS



First time I hear of anyone rebuilding a transmission as preventative maintenance

Why would you rebuild a tranny if it was working fine?

[Mitsu3000gt]

IMO manually shifting an automatic for fun is useless unless you have:

1) Proper paddles (left - down, right - up. None of this crap where you push forward/backward so you can shift both ways with 1 hand)
2) Fast shifts (most have a lag of 1-2 sec or so which takes all the fun out of it)
3) Rev matching down shifts

Otherwise I would prefer to just leave it in auto. Some auto's have VERY good "sport" modes, such as BMW.

In any other case, manual or DSG would be my preferred way to go.

[frizzlefry]

Originally posted by J-hop
imagine even 20 years from now some poor kid trying to source a new tiptronic transmission for there 2011 audi or something because they blew theirs.

Basically you can't keep one of these cars for your lifetime. My family has two vehicles with 300,000+ on them which were kept for the simple fact they are great vehicles and very reliable. One of them did require a transmission rebuild recently(not because it died but as preventative maintenance), imagine if that were a new tiptronic transmission, the car would have to be garbaged as it would cost several times the vehicles worth to source a new transmission.

I love my Audi and will always buy Audi. But if you have a 20 year old Audi I think the transmission is likely the least of your worries :)

[bituerbo]

I have an '00 A6 w/tip, with a VAST tip-chip. Basically changes Drive to Sport (as my car didn't come with a sport mode) and reduces shift times to about 0.2 secs... I use it all the time.
With stock programming tip was too lethargic and I never used it.

[sillysod]

Tiptronic on my wifes passat (Same as the a4's use) and I think I've tried it once.

I think using the tip feature a lot is a recipe for problems. I just do the flush every 100,000km's at TuneDub and try to keep her car as factory as possible.

It's just the V6 not a K04'd twin turbo 2.7 so it doesn't bother me if it shifts slow. But I can see how it would suck having 400hp and taking forever to shift gears.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
IMO manually shifting an automatic for fun is useless unless you have:

1) Proper paddles (left - down, right - up. None of this crap where you push forward/backward so you can shift both ways with 1 hand)
2) Fast shifts (most have a lag of 1-2 sec or so which takes all the fun out of it)
3) Rev matching down shifts

Otherwise I would prefer to just leave it in auto.
Nicely summed up!

I would add 4) Locking tq converter. Makes a huge difference in throttle "feel" when the tq converter is locked. The new Speedshift MCT goes even 1 step further by removing the tq converter and replacing it with a clutch for even better feel at low engine speeds.


Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
Some auto's have VERY good "sport" modes, such as BMW.
If I drive my C63 agressively in sport mode, it even rev match downshifts under braking. :thumbsup:

[J-hop]

Originally posted by G-ZUS



First time I hear of anyone rebuilding a transmission as preventative maintenance




Originally posted by Twin_Cam_Turbo


Why would you rebuild a tranny if it was working fine?

Lmao, fine I will describe the whole situation since you guys have seen it all and can add it to your list. Yes the transmission worked fine however one of the seals had developed a slow leak, the car itself will likely last well over 500k, so as preventative maintenance and the fact a rebuild was only just under 2k in the end and to replace the seal the transmission would have to come out of the car anyways it was decided that the most intelligent decision would be to have the transmission rebuilt as it would need it eventually anyways. Plus maintaining vehicles with the " don't fix it unless it's broke" attitude is stupid and will put you on the side of the road one day. The transmission probably would have been fine for a long time as it required topping up once a month at most. But as preventative maintenance the transmission was rebuilt.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by J-hop
I don't get them either, I used to try to use them when driving cars at the rental place I used to work at but having driven standard since I had my learners I can't stand the detached feeling these systems have.

I still hear people try to claim "it's just like driving a standard except you don't have to clutch".... RIIIIGHHHT, and riding a bike with training wheels is just like riding a regular bike except you don't have to balance :facepalm:

Meh. I've spent the majority of my life driving manuals and after going from the TC-SST back to a manual I'm already missing the 'detached feeling' of the twin clutch after a few months. I simply can't move through the gears of my chinese getrag 6-speed as fast as the TC-SST could and am not the better driver for it.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by rage2

Nicely summed up!

I would add 4) Locking tq converter. Makes a huge difference in throttle "feel" when the tq converter is locked. The new Speedshift MCT goes even 1 step further by removing the tq converter and replacing it with a clutch for even better feel at low engine speeds.


If I drive my C63 agressively in sport mode, it even rev match downshifts under braking. :thumbsup:

Yes, I hear the new MB auto's are amazing - sadly I have not had a chance to drive one yet. My most memorable experience with a MB auto was a 2003 E55 AMG which had a 1-2 sec lag on shifts in manual mode. Clearly they are much improved now. I drove a 2005 C55 AMG as well, and it was a bit better (seemed to have a decent full-auto mode).

2007+ G35 autos have proper paddles and rev-match downshifts as well (even in full auto) which is cool.

BMW's automatic in sport mode is one of the best full automatics I've driven, but I absolutely hate their steering wheel shifting controls on the autos (the ones used in 335i autos).

Not sure who else does a really good, proper, automatic with some kind of sport/paddle shift mode but there are a few out there :).

The worst automatic transmission I've ever experienced was a 2009 Corvette. It rev-matched down shifts, but it was the most lethargic transmission I've ever driven, and would immediately shift all the way to 6th gear even if you were going 20km/h, so if you stepped on the throttle it would have to kick down from 6 --> 2 every time. It seemed like the worst possible transmission to pair with a sports car, it felt like it belonged in a crown vic instead.

[max_boost]

DSG. I leave it in auto all the time. Computer shifting ftw. If the car can one day drive itself, even better. :burnout:

[J-hop]

Originally posted by heavyD


Meh. I've spent the majority of my life driving manuals and after going from the TC-SST back to a manual I'm already missing the 'detached feeling' of the twin clutch after a few months. I simply can't move through the gears of my chinese getrag 6-speed as fast as the TC-SST could and am not the better driver for it.

Yea I can see how for some it can be enjoyable. I am quite bias towards older vehicles, my first car had cable throttle, no ABS or TC, and nicely worn synchros :). Drove that for about 5 years. My current car is over 20 years newer and I've been driving it for about 4 years. in that 4 years I'm still not used to it's minute drive by wire throttle delay. To me it feels like when you are on a bogged down and/or slow computer and there is that slight lag of the mouse, drives you crazy after a while. For some (like myself) the joy of driving is all about feeling, which is something you just never get with an auto/tiptronic/dsg/paddle shift/etc transmission

[Mar]

I would kill a man for this if it meant I didn't have to be stuck with an automatic. I'd much rather my manual gearbox but I had a Mazda 3 rental in New York for 3 months and immediately used the tap shifter because I'm used to manual shifting. After a few weeks I got lazy and put it into full automatic and even though I had the pedal on the floor while merging onto the freeway, I thought I was going to die. It scared the hell out of me so I never used it again. So they serve a good purpose if you have to have it.

[rage2]

Originally posted by J-hop
in that 4 years I'm still not used to it's minute drive by wire throttle delay.
Go get a sprintbooster. ;)

It's actually not lag you're describing, a lot of manufactures put in very mild throttle maps, which means it takes 75% throttle to open the throttle 50% to help conserve fuel. Put in a sprint booster, and your throttle will take 50% to go WOT.

The E46 M3 (drive by wire) had a sport button that did the same thing, enabled a much more aggressive throttle map. Nobody ever complained about throttle lag on that car, well, except the ppl that drive like pussies because the throttle maps self learn based on your driving habits.


Originally posted by J-hop
For some (like myself) the joy of driving is all about feeling, which is something you just never get with an auto/tiptronic/dsg/paddle shift/etc transmission
Whats funny is my Black Series has an auto tranny (lockup TQ converter), no rev matched downshifts, and is the most "connected" car I've ever owned by a huge margin. I can tell exactly what the car is doing every second I'm in that thing. There's a lot more to the overall feeling of the car than just the transmission.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by rage2

Go get a sprintbooster. ;)

It's actually not lag you're describing, a lot of manufactures put in very mild throttle maps, which means it takes 75% throttle to open the throttle 50% to help conserve fuel. Put in a sprint booster, and your throttle will take 50% to go WOT.

The E46 M3 (drive by wire) had a sport button that did the same thing, enabled a much more aggressive throttle map. Nobody ever complained about throttle lag on that car, well, except the ppl that drive like pussies because the throttle maps self learn based on your driving habits.



Oh yea don't worry sprintbooster is next on my list after coilovers, heard nothing but good things about it. Funny thing is for the longest time i thought there was something wrong with my car, I checked everything from fuel to spark to air meter etc, only to realize it was one of those great economy features. Don't know why they even tried, the VR6 is a pig on gas :D

[heavyD]

Originally posted by rage2

Whats funny is my Black Series has an auto tranny (lockup TQ converter), no rev matched downshifts, and is the most "connected" car I've ever owned by a huge margin. I can tell exactly what the car is doing every second I'm in that thing. There's a lot more to the overall feeling of the car than just the transmission.

Yeah I've never understood the whole 'connected' argument in favor of manual transmissions. How so are you connnected? With a manual you are essentially push/pulling on a rod or cable that is attached to the transmission but that's it. You aren't any more connected to the engine, suspension, wheels, or tires. You are still selecting a gear in the transmission which is the same thing you are doing when you flick a paddle shifter. Feeling the synchros mesh in no way communicates the engine or how the car is steering or handling.

If you are really interested in feeling 'connected' look for cars with the best steering feel/feedback, chassis, suspension, tire setup as that's how you are going to feel truly connected to what your car is doing.

[dirtsniffer]

im pretty sure the term 'feeling connected' comes from the fact that with a manual the engine is directly connected to the tires. A classic torque converter would permanently disconnect the engine from the wheels.
new automatic transmission can lock up though, just usually only in situations where transmission input speed is similar to output speeds

[CapnCrunch]

My wife uses it in the winter on hills when its snowy/icy and shit. Otherwise it never gets touched.

[J-hop]

Well at least from my view with a standard you feel much more connected in that through your hand and foot you get feedback from the engine and transmission, you know when you rev matched properly, you know what a hard shift feels like. You have way more control from a stop and in snow(often when the wheels start to slip I instantly hit the clutch to stop any driving or retardation force from going to the wheels, you can't do that without a standard). Not to mention there really is nothing more satisfying than feeling a butter smooth rev matched downshift.

A great example of being more connected is when one of my ignition coils was dieing, it did not cause any codes, the engine sounded fine, and still felt like it pulled hard, however I felt I had to ease the clutch slightly more or the rpms dropped more than usual from a stop, what do you know 3 weeks later it finally showed up on a basic scan as a pending code

I think those that don't get the connected arguement have likely never really driven standard or have never driven a standard to it's full potential, ie people that just mash through the gears without regard for how a smooth shift is performed or my all time favorite are those that don't understand rev matching and pull the granny style easing of the clutch out to bring the revs up. For those people it is very understandable that they don't feel any more connected with a manual transmission

[E90Vader]

In BMW's the 335i's Steptronic shifts much quicker then a professional race car driver could in a 6 speed manual.. It's not as fun but it will take .5 sec off a quarter mile!

As far as actually using it vs letting the car shift itself in Sport mode, that option is nice if you want to keep revs within 6Krpm. After 6K the turbos run much less boost as it strains them high RPM. You can take another .5 sec off a quarter mile shifting at 6K vs 7K depending on what tune you are using.

Either way most of the cars that have steptronic also have a downshift function, if you put the throttle down 100% you will immediately downshift into the quickest gear, but if you put the throttle down 80% just before the click you will have WOT but within the same gear so for that you'd want to downshift using the steptronic ETC..

If you want SPEED the new auto tranny's on the BMW's are as fast as it gets.

Next level up is the fully manual SMG double clutch gearbox. It's a true manual car but without a clutch.. M5's have them and it shifts so fast its ridiculous. I test drove an M5 over the weekend and absolutely loved the SMG tranny!

[heavyD]

Originally posted by J-hop

I think those that don't get the connected arguement have likely never really driven standard or have never driven a standard to it's full potential, ie people that just mash through the gears without regard for how a smooth shift is performed or my all time favorite are those that don't understand rev matching and pull the granny style easing of the clutch out to bring the revs up. For those people it is very understandable that they don't feel any more connected with a manual transmission

Yeah okay.:rolleyes:

[rage2]

Originally posted by E90Vader
Next level up is the fully manual SMG double clutch gearbox. It's a true manual car but without a clutch.. M5's have them and it shifts so fast its ridiculous. I test drove an M5 over the weekend and absolutely loved the SMG tranny!
SMG in the M5 is actually a manual transmission with a single clutch, but shifting and clutch work is computer controlled. It's NOT a double clutch gearbox. That would be the DCT in the M3 and 335's.

[AE92_TreunoSC]

I despise the E60 m5 in any mode but M mode.

Drives like a tractor with long computerized shifts.

I'd like to try it with a proper 6 speed, but those are rare and end up being a little slower compared to the smg in full m mode.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by E90Vader
In BMW's the 335i's Steptronic shifts much quicker then a professional race car driver could in a 6 speed manual.. It's not as fun but it will take .5 sec off a quarter mile!



I suspect that the 1/4 mile difference is more due to the fact that a manual transmission car can't build boost from a standing start, whereas you can with the automatic. So, in the automatic you can launch with the turbos already spooled, in the manual you can't.

I do agree that most good modern automatics can shift as fast or faster than 99% of people.

[rage2]

Even though automatics can shift faster, they still fall behind manuals in efficiency. Automatics have higher parasitic loss than manual transmissions, so you get less whp for the same hp going in. It's gotten better, but manual still wins in this regard. The Dry dual clutch transmissions are starting to eclipse manuals in efficiency, but they can only handle a low amount of torque compared to the wet clutch versions, so it'll be a long while before we see them in your favorite sports cars.

Here's how the various transmissions and technologies look in terms of drivetrain efficiency, from best to worst efficiency:

1. Dual dry clutch (coming soon to Ford/Chrysler, low TQ applications)
2. Conventional manual w/dry clutch
3. Dual wet clutch (PDK, DSG, etc.)
4. Automatic w/wet clutch (AMG Speedshift MCT)
5. Automatic w/lockup TQ converter
6. Conventional automatic
7. CVT

1 and 2 are debatable, they're pretty much equal in terms of efficiency.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Xtrema]

Are you sure that's not the turbo lag?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I finally had a chance to try out a DSG on a new 2012 GTI... unfortonately the lag was so incredibly bad on the vehicle it felt worse than a slushbox for throttle responce :rolleyes:

The DSG transmission has no real noticeable shift lag...what exactly are you referring to?

Every DSG transmission car I've driven has basically instantaneous shifting, including the Jetta and GTI.

[Axe]

I don't think there is an argument that the newer automatic (DSG, Tiptronic, etc) transmissions are better on fuel mileage and performance; imo this is why Lamborghini (Aventador), Porsche
( Turbo S) and Ferrari are moving in that direction along with the more mainstream manufacturers; cost certainly figures into it, (ie not having to build drivetrains for 2 transmission types).

Personally would not buy an "automatic" sports car if I had the money. I am not that good of a driver that I am going to miss 3-5/10ths of a second on a track. Having a manual was a dealbreaker for my last car purchase (not very many sedans in my price range with manuals).

For myself, it's about driver involvement; I just like the feel of shifting for myself. I have no doubt that drivers like Rage2 make full use of the paddleshift transmissions, but that skill set is in the minority of drivers, and having been driven in the old 944 with Rage2 I will miss the manual transmission days :). My rant and thanks for letting me share.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I finally had a chance to try out a DSG on a new 2012 GTI... unfortonately the lag was so incredibly bad on the vehicle it felt worse than a slushbox for throttle responce :rolleyes:

Did you drive the manual version? I suspect you were experiencing a case of drive by wire lag in throttle response. It would be the same with the manual version.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I finally had a chance to try out a DSG on a new 2012 GTI... unfortonately the lag was so incredibly bad on the vehicle it felt worse than a slushbox for throttle responce :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Xtrema
Are you sure that's not the turbo lag?

Originally posted by Aleks
Did you drive the manual version? I suspect you were experiencing a case of drive by wire lag in throttle response. It would be the same with the manual version.
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the "soft" throttle of the GTI's. The factory throttle map is pretty tame, and there's no sport button to make it any more aggressive. Turbos are pretty small in the GTI, so they're very responsive and not much turbo lag to the car. Aleks is correct in that the manual version feels the same way.

For day to day driving, you have to be pretty aggressive with the throttle to zip around traffic. I can see how a lot of people don't like that. At the track, I prefer the soft throttle map, gives me a bit more control of power application out of corners. Hitting a bump with a hard throttle map at low speeds isn't fun, sometimes gets into a "bucking" cycle. Never had that happen with the GTI.