"Gang of Six" - Obama debt plan. [Archive] - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

Feruk

07-19-2011, 03:55 PM

- Aim to reduce deficits by $3.7 trillion over ten years;
- Call for the elimination of some tax deductions and preferences and the reduction of others, raising $1 trillion in new revenue, while also reducing marginal income tax rates to as low as 23 percent for high earners;
- Require $145 billion in cuts to national defense and homeland security operations and hundreds of billions in cuts to other federal departments;
- Shift to a new measure of inflation called “chained CPI” which would have the effect of reducing future Social Security benefits by mandating smaller annual cost-of-living adjustments.

So the deficit this year is supposed to be $1.65 trillion... They plan to reduce deficit by $3.7 trillion over TEN years, so if we assume 1/10th this year, they will still run $1.28 trillion deficit. More than likely, they'll space it out to bigger deductions in later years though as they won't be in office in order to have to implement it. Similar to Merkel's decision to decommission nuclear power plants.

On top of that, tax rates of 23% for high earners???

Is this a joke? The only positive I see in all this is cuts to national defense and homeland security operations. Learn to live within your means or the USA will be joining the PIGS (Portugal-Ireland-Greece-Spain).

HiTempguy1

07-19-2011, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Feruk

The only positive I see in all this is cuts to national defense and homeland security operations.

It's not enough, while I am pro-army, the US needs to cut down.

dimi

07-19-2011, 04:01 PM

Chained CPI :rofl:

Just change the way inflation is measured, that'll solve everything. Wooohooo!!!

94boosted

07-19-2011, 04:20 PM

Am I reading that right? They are going to reduce income tax for high earners?!?!

dimi

07-19-2011, 04:37 PM

Yes and reduce the social security payments for the poor by inventing a lower inflation.

94boosted

07-19-2011, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by dimi
Yes and reduce the social security payments for the poor by inventing a lower inflation.

Wow reducing taxes for the people who can actually afford to pay them seems like a great way to get out of a massive deficit. :banghead:

Modelexis

07-19-2011, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by 94boosted

Wow reducing taxes for the people who can actually afford to pay them seems like a great way to get out of a massive deficit. :banghead:

You are assuming rich people are all rich because they won the lottery and blow all their money on hookers and blow.

I know it sounds crazy but the majority of rich people are rich because they both produce a product that is in demand and employ people to work for them. My boss I would consider rich, but if you tax the shit out of him you will find out quickly how slow a moneyless economy can really be. Not only that, but when it becomes even more expensive to produce goods in north america you will see more jobs sent across the world to be produced with less taxes. Even if you make a trillion with more taxes, you will lose generations of trillions of dollars of production and profits. If you raise the taxes on employers you force them to increase their prices to make a profit, and in the end the tax hike on the rich will get transferred to the poor anyway, because the rich are rich for a reason, they are smart and sneaky with money.

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but I wish you would not make such one sided assertions when you are intelligent to see both sides.

It's not wise to ignore fundamental cause and effect.

broken_legs

07-19-2011, 10:38 PM

^^^ Trickle Down Economics... ?

Rich people are given more money first so they can spend it into the economy and create massive inflation that removes the rest of the disposable income that the tax hikes and social security cuts didn't take away from the poor.

yeah that makes total sense. I must be missing something??

Oh yeah I forgot - Because rich people pay the salaries of their employees out of their personal taxable income - and all rich people are actually small business owners, not people in finance, real estate, banking, or sitting in high positions at corporations.

Stupidest shit I have read all day.

Modelexis

07-19-2011, 10:58 PM

You misunderstood what I was saying.

I was stating a fact about our economy and how it works, I wasn't proposing a solution to the crisis, I wasn't saying what solves economic problems or giving a theory about how the economy needs to work in the future.

I was simply stating the fact that taxing wealthy business owners is not going to solve any economic problems.

Taxation will never solve any problems, it never has and it never will, it's not a matter of who should we tax more.

You're too quick to pick an e-fight broken!

I'm not suggesting we pump up wealthy people with more money and tax the lower class more.
I don't wanna tax anyone, but I'm just stating the fact that taxing wealthy people is a bad idea because wealthy people know one thing very well, THEY KNOW HOW TO MAKE MONEY.

They didn't get rich by paying all their taxes in full and never finding a way around the tax code.
They make a living by passing the taxes onto the consumer, in today's economy that's how you survive.

They are scum, I completely agree with you, but what we don't need to do is tax them more so they have to find more ways of pushing that burden onto the lower middle class.

It's like me playing basketball with an all star, yeah, you can give me the ball each play, but every god damn time I will get stripped and not even make it to his side of the court because that's what he does, he is good at what he does for a reason. Give me two basketballs each play and give him none, he will still strip them from me and then score twice, lol.

lol, I think we agree vastly on this issue broken, I dunno why you are so quick to tear me apart.

I have no beef, I'd buy you a cup of coffee if I met you, I have a short memory, so I've forgotten what I've said to make you upset with me but I apologize for any attitude I've given you in the past.

94boosted

07-20-2011, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Modelexis

You are assuming rich people are all rich because they won the lottery and blow all their money on hookers and blow.

I know it sounds crazy but the majority of rich people are rich because they both produce a product that is in demand and employ people to work for them. My boss I would consider rich, but if you tax the shit out of him you will find out quickly how slow a moneyless economy can really be. Not only that, but when it becomes even more expensive to produce goods in north america you will see more jobs sent across the world to be produced with less taxes. Even if you make a trillion with more taxes, you will lose generations of trillions of dollars of production and profits. If you raise the taxes on employers you force them to increase their prices to make a profit, and in the end the tax hike on the rich will get transferred to the poor anyway, because the rich are rich for a reason, they are smart and sneaky with money.

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know but I wish you would not make such one sided assertions when you are intelligent to see both sides.

It's not wise to ignore fundamental cause and effect.

I'm not arguing with you that raising taxes excessively for the wealthy is not a good idea but it just doesn't seem that lowering them is a viable short term solution to reducing the deficit either. :dunno: Don't they already have much lower personal income taxes in the states than we do here?

Feruk

07-20-2011, 08:36 AM

You guys are both missing a pretty big point. In Canada, the rich pay ~50% in taxes. In the USA... 23%!!! Republican policy; "let the rich get richer and the poor dumb sheep will still vote for us because their priest tells them to."

Modelexis

07-20-2011, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Feruk
In Canada, the rich pay ~50% in taxes. In the USA... 23%!!!

Source please?

ZenOps

07-20-2011, 09:21 AM

Haha. China just made an official statement:

"We hope the U.S. government will take responsible policies and measures to boost global financial market confidence and respect and protect the interests of investors," the State Administration of Foreign Exchange said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/20/us-china-us-idUSTRE76J1FL20110720

China has so much US$ debt that they are worried that the US will not be able to pay and/or they are going to throw the dollar off a cliff.

In otherwords: String the US public along just a little bit longer while we dump the last of the 30 and 100 year US bonds.

Currency wars! Devalue paper to the consistency of runny cheese.

KLCC

07-20-2011, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Feruk
You guys are both missing a pretty big point. In Canada, the rich pay ~50% in taxes. In the USA... 23%!!! Republican policy; "let the rich get richer and the poor dumb sheep will still vote for us because their priest tells them to."

Last I checked, I thought it was pegged at 29% (Personal Income)?

94boosted

07-20-2011, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by KLCC

Last I checked, I thought it was pegged at 29% (Personal Income)?

I beleive the article is saying that it will be reduced from 29% to 23%.

oupzwrongthread

07-20-2011, 11:01 AM

The "job creators" are vital!

http://consumerist.com/2011/07/goldman-will-sach-1000-workers-because-it-only-made-a-billion-dollars-last-quarter.html

Lol.

Modelexis

07-20-2011, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by oupzwrongthread
The "job creators" are vital!

http://consumerist.com/2011/07/goldman-will-sach-1000-workers-because-it-only-made-a-billion-dollars-last-quarter.html

Lol.

I'm not sure I understand the humor, can you elaborate?

oupzwrongthread

07-20-2011, 11:23 AM

^I'm not sure I understand your question. Did you read the article? A job creator (goldman) only made a billion last QUARTER so they have to lay off 1,000 US workers...but their offshore hiring will continue at full speed. Anyone who argues for trickle down is blind, deaf and dumb.

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/07/13/worlds-rich-are-hording-10-trillion-in-cash/

Modelexis

07-20-2011, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by oupzwrongthread
^I'm not sure I understand your question. Did you read the article? A job creator (goldman) only made a billion last QUARTER so they have to lay off 1,000 US workers...but their offshore hiring will continue at full speed. Anyone who argues for trickle down is blind, deaf and dumb.

http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010/07/13/worlds-rich-are-hording-10-trillion-in-cash/

If they were taxed more heavily, wouldn't they just continue to lay people off locally and figure out new sneaky ways of avoiding taxation and manipulating the system? You're kidding yourself if you think a greedy investment banker is going to lose profits because of increased taxation.

Side note: I would not argue for trickle down.

What do you argue for?

in*10*se

07-20-2011, 11:59 AM

max tax in canada is 46.4% in MB

max tax in AB is 39%

just as an FYI.

oupzwrongthread

07-20-2011, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis

If they were taxed more heavily, wouldn't they just continue to lay people off locally and figure out new sneaky ways of avoiding taxation and manipulating the system? You're kidding yourself if you think a greedy investment banker is going to lose profits because of increased taxation.

Side note: I would not argue for trickle down.

What do you argue for?

I don't disagree - But what they are doing now does not work.

"The Fortune 500 generated nearly $10.8 trillion in total revenues last year, up 10.5 percent. Total profits soared 81 percent. But guess who didn't benefit much from this giant wave of cash? Millions of U.S. workers stuck mired in a stagnant job market ... we've rarely seen such a stark gulf between the fortunes of the 500 and those of ordinary Americans."

I would argue for higher taxes on the rich, and loss of preferential/subsidized treatment of corp's - If they want to fight two wars, obamacare, etc etc then they have to pay for it.

If they alter the foreign policy, rein in spending and move towards a more "open market" system then they can keep their low taxes - otherwise, PAY UP!

Modelexis

07-20-2011, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by oupzwrongthread

I don't disagree - But what they are doing now does not work.

"The Fortune 500 generated nearly $10.8 trillion in total revenues last year, up 10.5 percent. Total profits soared 81 percent. But guess who didn't benefit much from this giant wave of cash? Millions of U.S. workers stuck mired in a stagnant job market ... we've rarely seen such a stark gulf between the fortunes of the 500 and those of ordinary Americans."

I would argue for higher taxes on the rich, and loss of preferential/subsidized treatment of corp's - If they want to fight two wars, obamacare, etc etc then they have to pay for it.

If they alter the foreign policy, rein in spending and move towards a more "open market" system then they can keep their low taxes - otherwise, PAY UP!

I'm sure you realize this but government is subject to corruption and the more money you have the more political power you have.
The person making the laws is not going to piss off the people that got him into power and have bought and paid for his position in government.

Do you have some sort of plan to achieve this plan with such a self-interested monster standing in the way?

If you have a method of convincing the largest and most powerful self interested group of all time to act against the people who have payed for and run the system, I would like to get my hands on this plan and use it on other groups to get them to do the opposite of what is in their self-interest.

Money is power and government is the most effective tool for enslaving the poor. So as long as we have an entity with the power to enslave people we will have rich people doing what is economically efficient for them to gain the most profits.

oupzwrongthread

07-20-2011, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis

Do you have some sort of plan to achieve this plan with such a self-interested monster standing in the way?

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmefdfOl821qcb52qo1_500.jpg

J/K

It can and has been achieved in the past by democratic gov't with control of the house - Decrease spending, pull out of wars you can't afford. Doesn't necessarily mean an increase in taxes.

Modelexis

07-20-2011, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by oupzwrongthread
It can and has been achieved in the past by democratic gov't with control of the house - Decrease spending, pull out of wars you can't afford. Doesn't necessarily mean an increase in taxes.

haha

What would you say has been more successful in the fight, decreased spending or increased spending, pulling out of wars or starting wars, increase in taxes or decrease in taxes.

It seems to me that the fight has been going on a long time and your idea comes out with a black eye each time, and if you get a jab in you are countered with 5 uppercuts.

Would you agree with that?
Do you have a plan to win the fight and retain the success for more than a week?
Where would you cut spending?

dimi

07-20-2011, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis

Where would you cut spending?

Nowhere. I'd probably want to get elected again.

oupzwrongthread

07-20-2011, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Modelexis

haha

What would you say has been more successful in the fight, decreased spending or increased spending, pulling out of wars or starting wars, increase in taxes or decrease in taxes.

It seems to me that the fight has been going on a long time and your idea comes out with a black eye each time, and if you get a jab in you are countered with 5 uppercuts.

Would you agree with that?
Do you have a plan to win the fight and retain the success for more than a week?
Where would you cut spending?

I thought my picture would distract you enough not to question HOW I would do it - theoretically speaking, my plan works. In the real word, the US is fucked, to put it simply.

Maybelater

07-20-2011, 02:10 PM

ID4cwjva1yo

dimi

07-20-2011, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Maybelater
ID4cwjva1yo

Oh yeaaaaaaaa.... what a lop of shit.

You actually think he wants to get taxed? Really?

Modelexis

07-20-2011, 07:12 PM

That was shockingly honest oupzwrongthread, not the reply I was expecting.

I don't have a total solution either, especially when it comes to a massive economy that I can scarcely comprehend.

I know a few things I can do in my day to day life to spread freedom, and I have a lot of good values that I will pass onto my children when they spawn, but for now I'm gonna look into getting a restricted firearm. :D

Maybelater

07-20-2011, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by dimi

Oh yeaaaaaaaa.... what a lop of shit.

You actually think he wants to get taxed? Really?

Why not? He is a big Democrat supporter and if you read about him and watch videos, speechs etc he is imo one of the most level headed and down to earth billionaires out there.

oupzwrongthread

07-21-2011, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by Modelexis

I don't have a total solution either, especially when it comes to a massive economy that I can scarcely comprehend.

I know a few things I can do in my day to day life to spread freedom, and I have a lot of good values that I will pass onto my children when they spawn, but for now I'm gonna look into getting a restricted firearm. :D

:thumbsup: agreed.