Car manufactuers/qualities/good buys

[archcommus]

A friend of mine was recently telling me how his mother was going to purchase a manual VW Jetta, and how excited he was about it because it was fast and a nice car. I read some reviews on it, and apparently it seems to be a VERY nice car, almost comparable to an Audi A4. I also read about VW's excellent durability and craftsmanship. Now, I don't know much about all of the car manufactuers out there, so this raised some questions to me.

First off, apparently VW builds very solid, durable vehicles. Many people talk about how this isn't the case at all with American vehicles. Is this true for all of them, or only some? Would you consider every vehicle that any GM company produces to be crap? What American models do you think are just as sturdy and durable as a good German car?

Second, if the 2004 Jetta offers everything that an Audi A4 offers, but for only around $20,000, does that mean it's pretty much unbeatable when it comes to compact sedans it its class? What other similar cars are there that cost around the same and provide just as many features, and just as good handling and durability? Are there any?

Thanks a lot!

[nine8civicSi]

theres tons!!

honda accord, mazda 6, nissan maxima , although most of those wil compare to a rather loaded up jetta....but most would consider the jetta underpowered compared to any of those cars!

[archcommus]

Well, the 1.8L Turbo Jetta isn't exactly underpowered. Which of those cars are at least that powerful, still have all those features, and still don't cost more than $22,000? Also that have the same dependability. Any?

[nine8civicSi]

i dont know about prices since most of us here are in Canada, i would say the pricing is at least comparable (for a loaded jetta Vs. any of those other cars) all with simlar features...however it depends on the trim level you're looking for and who the car is for..the accord has 240 Hp 6-cyl. and the mazda 6 sits @ 221Hp, however other than that, if you load up the jetta with leather, sunroof, nice wheels and all the goodies i would assume your look at a similar prince range....however if you are considering a lower model jetta with jsut a 1.8T then im sure it can be had for a few thousand less than the rest, if you leave out some bells and wistles...you seem really ocnvinced on the jetta and beacause of that i would say go for it....they are excellent cars other than the quirky problems some VW's face!

[archcommus]

What quirky problems?

No, I'm not buying one, my friend's mom is, and after reading I just started wondering some stuff. It just seemed like there was NOTHING that beats it in its class. Anyone else have an opinion?

And then, what about my first question, dealing with American models? Does anything from GM suck compared to Japanese and German cars? Like Pontiac, Cadillac, Chevy, etc. Do any of them have comparable offerings to say Jetta, Passat, Toyota, etc?

[Ben]

Originally posted by archcommus
What quirky problems?

No, I'm not buying one, my friend's mom is, and after reading I just started wondering some stuff. It just seemed like there was NOTHING that beats it in its class. Anyone else have an opinion?

And then, what about my first question, dealing with American models? Does anything from GM suck compared to Japanese and German cars? Like Pontiac, Cadillac, Chevy, etc. Do any of them have comparable offerings to say Jetta, Passat, Toyota, etc?

A few years back they had some issues with the Windows as well as the Coil packs that Bosch supplied VW with, these have long since been resolved on the '04's

As far as fit and finish, and build quality, interior finesse, no I havent seen any Domestic manufacturers having a comperable vehicle to the VW, Audi, Toyota etc.

[syeve]

^^^^

Originally posted by nine8civicSi
theres tons!!

honda accord, mazda 6, nissan maxima

TSX is also in the mix, I think they are all more powerful than the 1.8T

[nex]

Originally posted by Ben
...As far as fit and finish, and build quality, interior finesse, no I havent seen any Domestic manufacturers having a comperable vehicle to the VW, Audi, Toyota etc.


He's right dont buy a domestic or atleast a gm, my car is a 99 and im being assraped for shit breaking down now spend the little extra and get a vw!

[switch]

I do not consider a Mazda 6, Nissan Maxima, Honda Accord, Chevy Alero, Acura TSX, Toyota Camry, Mitsubishi Galant to be car enthusiast vehicles, rather something my mom would drive.

On the other hand, a VW Jetta is a enthusiast vehicle -- I would take it over the aforementioned without a thought or doubt.

just my 2sense.

[archcommus]

So do you all agree not to buy ANY GM car? None of them? Would you consider them all of equal quality and durability?

What about Ford or any other American models?

What exactly does an enthusiast vehicle include? Sporty, fast, powerful, those things?

So, if you want quality and class for the right price, German or Japanese is the only way to go?

[switch]

Originally posted by archcommus
So do you all agree not to buy ANY GM car? None of them? Would you consider them all of equal quality and durability?

What about Ford or any other American models?

I wouldn't say that, that is personal preference.


Originally posted by archcommus

What exactly does an enthusiast vehicle include? Sporty, fast, powerful, those things?

In a nutshell, yes.


Originally posted by archcommus
So, if you want quality and class for the right price, German or Japanese is the only way to go?

I think so, but it really depends on the person. My dad thinks most sporty imports are gay and wonders why I am not driving a mustang or a camaro.

[archcommus]

Well, as far as style and appearance goes, yes, that is a personal preference. For example, I hate the boxy style and front look of Jettas and Passats. Other people like them though.

But some of it is fact. Durability, quality, interior materials, etc. can all be measured and rated with statistics. Based on these statistics, would one say to avoid everything GM and Ford? Or no?

What about some other imports, like Chrysler, Mercedes, and Dodge? Well, Dodges are built here, but their homeland is still DaimlerChrysler.

[1badPT]

Originally posted by archcommus
A friend of mine was recently telling me how his mother was going to purchase a manual VW Jetta, and how excited he was about it because it was fast and a nice car. I read some reviews on it, and apparently it seems to be a VERY nice car, almost comparable to an Audi A4. I also read about VW's excellent durability and craftsmanship. Now, I don't know much about all of the car manufactuers out there, so this raised some questions to me.

...SNIP...

Second, if the 2004 Jetta offers everything that an Audi A4 offers, but for only around $20,000, does that mean it's pretty much unbeatable when it comes to compact sedans it its class? What other similar cars are there that cost around the same and provide just as many features, and just as good handling and durability? Are there any?

I can't tell from this whether you know about the A4 being a rebadged Jetta - much like Acura rebadges the Civic as the EL. The A4 is obviously trimmed and finished much more nicely than the Jetta, which also explains the difference in cost.

As for value, VW's have a reputation for good value. You may want to check around with your friends about the newer model VW's because a few people have mentioned concerns about build quality - so its something you should be aware of. I don't know how true it is, but surely you'll know someone who has a newer Jetta who can vouch one way or the other.


First off, apparently VW builds very solid, durable vehicles. Many people talk about how this isn't the case at all with American vehicles. Is this true for all of them, or only some? Would you consider every vehicle that any GM company produces to be crap? What American models do you think are just as sturdy and durable as a good German car?
There are good and bad cars made from any company on the planet - its not specific to a particular continent. I would say that GM builds good cars, but you have to be careful because they do have some brands/vehicles that are problematic. At the other end of the spectrum though, there are North American cars that have earned awards for build quality (like my car - PT Cruiser [/shameless plug] ). The thing you have to keep in mind is that most cars that are considered "imports" are imported as parts, and assembled in North America. So build good or bad build qualities have more to do with the engineering behind the car itself, and the management of the production lines - not so much whether it was built on the left or right side of the pond.

GL with your purchase, I hope you get everything that you want in a vehicle :)

[Grexx]

I have a 02Jetta 1.8T with the suspension package. Personally I think it's over price. So far I have so much problems with this thing. Went back to the dealership 4 times for engine coils, rattles on the dash and some minor electrical problems. I just cant wait to get rid of this thing and get a realiable car.

I also know people who have the same problems as well. I would definitly steer clear of the 1.8T Jetta.

[DJ Glue_gun]

as far as i know the Jetta is made in Mexico... and since that began the quality has dropped, i could be wrong, but the Audi A4 is still made in Germany.

No company really makes a bad product any more, there is just a lot of bad drivers. There is so much selection in the mid-size car range that you really can't go wrong, even if you go low enough to by a new mazda 3 to the V6 Accord... they are all excellent vehicles.

[archcommus]

That's very good to hear, thanks for the comments.

Lol, once again, I am not looking to purchase a vehicle, but since my friend told me about his mom buying a Jetta, I just thought of some questions.

So I guess there is no company that produces all crap vehicles. That's good to hear, because after I read up on the Jetta, and its "awesome durability and solid structure," and then after I read some other forums, I started to get the impression that any Pontiac, Cadillac, Buick etc. is all crap and cheap compared to German imports. But I guess that's not necessarily the case, right?

[switch]

Originally posted by DJ Glue_gun
as far as i know the Jetta is made in Mexico... and since that began the quality has dropped, i could be wrong, but the Audi A4 is still made in Germany.

Actually, Audis being built in Hungary, Toyotas being built in America -- list goes on and on.

Even both BMW Z3 Roadsters and Mercedes M-Class SUVs are both built in the states -- The Globalization of the Car Industry is upon us.

[Khyron]

Check out the new Mazda 3 sedan. Amazing car, for an amazing price. And it's the same size as the Jetta so all you "it's an Echo" people go jump in a lake.

Khyron

[switch]

Originally posted by Khyron
Check out the new Mazda 3 sedan. Amazing car, for an amazing price. And it's the same size as the Jetta so all you "it's an Echo" people go jump in a lake.

Khyron

I have been curious to read the mazda3's specs -- tight looking little car, I like it.

[thich]

Originally posted by switch
I do not consider a Mazda 6, Nissan Maxima, Honda Accord, Chevy Alero, Acura TSX, Toyota Camry, Mitsubishi Galant to be car enthusiast vehicles, rather something my mom would drive.

On the other hand, a VW Jetta is a enthusiast vehicle -- I would take it over the aforementioned without a thought or doubt.

just my 2sense.

what makes the Jetto an enthusiast vehicle while other cars are noted for their handling and performance? (ie. Mazda6 and Maxima) I personally find it quite the opposite and that the Jetta isn't an enthusiast vehicle... :dunno:

I would put Mazda6 up there in performance since the 6MPS will be coming out in a few years anyways...

[1badPT]

Anyone can be enthusiastic about any car. ANY CAR.
I mean, here is a community of enthusiasts for the Suzuki Swift (and its variants).
http://www.teamswift.net/

Its hard to imagine anyone being excited about a swift, but everyone has their preferences. Just because you like a particular vehicle doesn't make the other choices wrong.

[Khyron]

The Mazda 3 has an interior equal or better than the Jetta (I'm a dashstroker btw), has 160 hp/150 tq NA (on the GT), better fuel economy, it weights 300 pounds or so less, and it's the same size (within inches).

It also has the best manual shifter - better than any BMW or anyone else. It's like butter. At least equal to the renouned Miata shifter.

Subtle styling cues from the RX8. Looks great. They took a bunch of little things from the Jetta (the door handles, the non-intrusive trunk hinges, the antena) and either kept it the same or made it better.

And the loaded GT is under 25K Cdn. Less if you skip the 17 inch wheels etc.

Now I love my Jetta, but if I was buying today I would seriously look at the 3 (or wait till the MK5 comes out next year). Remember the current Jetta is 5 years old so it's not really fair to be too vicious in comparisons.

Khyron

[switch]

Originally posted by Khyron
The Mazda 3 has an interior equal or better than the Jetta (I'm a dashstroker btw), has 160 hp/150 tq NA (on the GT), better fuel economy, it weights 300 pounds or so less, and it's the same size (within inches).

Khyron

I just spent half an hour on mazda.ca -- I am going to go take one for a spin this weekend. Very nice looking little car with a beautful interior -- I just wish it had an extra 20-30 hp :D

thich: Just my opinion.

1badPT: I completely agree, no matter how silly the vehicle a person is entitled to be enthusiastic about it.

[Hakkola]

Originally posted by switch
Even both BMW Z3 Roadsters and Mercedes M-Class SUVs are both built in the states -- The Globalization of the Car Industry is upon us.

Z3 isn't being built anymore and the M-Class is probably the worst built Mercedes ever. I don't think how good a car is has anything to do with where it is built though.

Different countries usually just have different theories on what makes a good car. I don't like MOST Japanese or American cars
because I find from the exterior they tend to look like they are made from plastic, probably due to the paint that's used. Some German cars are like this as well though, just have to look at the car companies themselves, not what country they're from.

I wouldn't consider Chrysler an import, except maybe the crossfire since it's like 50% SLK.

I don't have much experience with many American cars except for Cadillac 2 years ago, they make very nice looking cars, but, they are shit in my opinion, had very extensive engine problems in the car we were test driving, and then they told us it was fixed, went to test drive it again, same thing happened... again...

I'm very hard to please though, I think 90% of the car platforms that have come out after the mid 90's are terrible no matter what company.

[1badPT]

I'm sure with the popularity of the car, therewill likely be an aftermarket product to tune the ECU. You should be able to get ~20 hp (rule of thumb is 5hp x no. of cylinders) extra if you advance the timing (high octane fuel would be necessary after that though).

160hp sounds pretty good for a relatively light car. If you still need the extra horses though, a chip tune will give you the numbers you're after.

[africano]

IMO a sporty can is fast, handles, and breaks. Quality has nothing to do with where it's made as much as how it was made.

American cars get a bad rap for quality since the older cars stock was built with cheaper parts. Like valve seals, which they only used an o-ring style seal. Which wore out pretty fast so oil would get in the combustion camber.

I personally like the companies from japan and germany when it comes to attention to details and quality.

When it comes to tuning a jetta check out Neuspeed they got a ton of parts for VW's

www.neuspeed.com

[Grexx]

I sold my 00Prelude and bought the Jetta because I heard alot of nice things about them; to bad the quality wasn't there.(Big Mistake)

I've own Jap cars before the Jetta and never have any problems with them. Never own a domestic before so I can't really comment on that. But I would go back to a Jap car in a heartbeat.

[Bonka]

Originally posted by africano
Quality has nothing to do with where it's made as much as how it was made.

Just about sums it up :thumbsup:

As far as buying a NEW car is concerned, cars today are more of everything...just don't look at a car for it's branding..although I suppose if money is no object this would not need apply

A car built in Mexico can be no better or worse than a car build in say, Europe or Japan..All cars produce lemons..it's better to look for "common" problems for a certain model..

As far as origin goes, imports typically do score better with consumers with the "overall" buildup of a car..interior, materials used, styling..etc..Domestic, particularly GM CONTINUES to build the typically GM flavoured interiors..doesn't bother me too much, however..

Case in point, we have WAY to many options, so be as picky and choosy as you like...with that in mind, I too recommend looking at the new Mazdas...priced VERY competitively and the styling cues are pretty hot for the market right now (although there seems to be a cannibalization of design among a few Japanese import makes)

I have driven 2002-2003 Golfs and Jettas before, I found their brakes to be very touchy and as far as the steering feel goes, it is little over power assisted with little "road feel", complemented with what I think to be a noticeably small steering wheel..on the other hand, very easy to drive :nut: Not exactly sure what the mom wants here but a viable option nonetheless..

[thich]

Originally posted by switch


I just spent half an hour on mazda.ca -- I am going to go take one for a spin this weekend. Very nice looking little car with a beautful interior -- I just wish it had an extra 20-30 hp :D

thich: Just my opinion.

np, didn't mean anything by my question, just wanted clarification :thumbsup:

i think the new Mazda3 engines will handle boost better than the silly Protege ones... hopefully. that's the idea anyways.
cross fingers and see.
i want an AWD Mazda3! Mazda... make one!

[JordanLotoski]

Originally posted by nine8civicSi
theres tons!!

honda accord, mazda 6, nissan maxima , although most of those wil compare to a rather loaded up jetta....but most would consider the jetta underpowered compared to any of those cars!


nissan maxima is no longer comapred to the accord....they now compare the altima...the maxima is in a new class...competeing with the a6, 5 series, TL

[T5_X]

Originally posted by SIRCANADA



nissan maxima is no longer comapred to the accord....they now compare the altima...the maxima is in a new class...competeing with the a6, 5 series, TL

No, the G35 is in that class. The maxima is sorta in a class of its own.

[JordanLotoski]

actually when i bought mine, i was reading about it in a mag and those were the cars they were comparing to it

[T5_X]

There's no way. The TL, G35, 3 series, A4, S60, CTS, IS300 etc are all in the same class, of which the maxima might compete with base A4s, S60s, 9-3s

Nissan's only car that can compete with the 5 series, A6, S80, Lexus GS, MB E series etc is the M45, which is similarily priced, otherwise, all these cars outprice the maxima by at least 20 grand!

[thich]

i thought maximas competed with the 3 series?

[nine8civicSi]

Originally posted by thich
i thought maximas competed with the 3 series?

in price....but not in any other category......jus tthe nameplate

[JordanLotoski]

maxima will rape the 2004 330ci and the 2004 530i..:thumbsup:

[max_boost]

Originally posted by SIRCANADA
maxima will rape the 2004 330ci and the 2004 530i..:thumbsup: What do you mean by 'rape'? Whatever happened to the brand argument? Pff, it's a Nissan, this is a BMW!!!:rofl: :thumbsup:

[JordanLotoski]

rape...iam taking speed wise.....sure its bmw, ive got a benz, i can appeciate german cars..but man, i looked at getting the 330....but liked the maxima alot more....alot more features..and an actual motor:poosie:

and you say yeah its BMW...man they make a 320...come on anyone who can afford an accord can drive a 320..with its 160HP, cloth seats......pffft BMW:rofl:

i love bmw...id only buy an M.....or maybe a 545....ok or a 745.....no 3 series though

[civic_rida]

bmw 545 = $$$$

Imo me n my dad think the new 530 is such a rip off 77g. He wanted to sell his 2002 n get a 2004 but i dont think its worth it.
225hp lol . Oh well maybe a m3 or s4.

[max_boost]

LOL True that
320 is an absolute waste of money. I remember hearing a commercial from BMW, would you rather own a Toyota Avalone or a BMW 320? Some crap like that :rofl:

325 isn't bad, most people aren't into speed anyway but considering the G35 is around the same price, one should opt for that instead.

Only 3 series worth considering is the 330, lots of torque, amazing car to drive. I'm not so sure the Maxima can rape the 330. Since you have so much free time on your hand, if I do buy one, I'm going to call you up!!!
:burnout:

[JordanLotoski]

man look at the numbers

2004 bmw 330ci
weight 1525kg
HP 225
lbs torq 214
6 speed

2004 nissan maxima SE
weight 1575kg
HP 265
lbs torq 255
6 speed


RAPE!!!!!, sure the bmw is a wee bit lighter....but the nissan as alot more HP and alot more torque..u get that 330 max,,and will have a go sometime at race city...iam so bias though man....
:thumbsup:

[fast95pony]

LOL ! The person who started this thread is asking about a car for his friends MOM ! He needs to know how many vanity mirrors there are , if you can plug in a curling iron , and how many cute colours it comes in !!



:rofl:

[nickyh]

here are two car forums - check them out then make up you own mind.

www.vwvortex.com
www.myvwlemon.com (ca?)


I to have an 02Jetta, i am selling it this year. I love the power and i cannot see myself getting into a Honda (blah interior underpowered) so it's a bit of a dilema for me. Do i keep it and spend a ton of money once my warranty runs out fixing the POS all the time of opt for less of a car in that price range?
Love the power - don't trust it enough to want to keep it.

[doc_speeder]

Someone mentioned a few posts up that the Audi A4 is a rebadged Jetta. Thats just plain and simply a load of crap. As far as being enthusiasts cars. IMO, VW's ceased being enthusiasts cars in 1999 when the MK4s debuted. They are too big, to heavy, too soft and too luxurious. Again note that I said IMO. As far as being reliable and durable. Even I, as a VW nut, must disagree. The major components are very good, but on a day-day basis, a VW will require more repair and maintenance than most Jap cars and even Domestic.

I speak from personal experience, not by what "they" say.

[1badPT]

Originally posted by doc_speeder
Someone mentioned a few posts up that the Audi A4 is a rebadged Jetta. Thats just plain and simply a load of crap.

?? :dunno: Are you a moron perhaps or do you just enjoy speaking out your ass without the knowledge to back it up? I won't bother going through the whole company structure or explanation about platform sharing and marketing. Just have a look and realize how dumb it is to speak out your ass, and even stupider to call something a load of crap, when you don't know if in fact it is.
http://ca.yimg.com/i/ca/jato/i/volkswagen_2003_jetta_4sa.jpg

http://www.velocityphotos.com/images/stk/2003/ad2003a401.jpg

[Khyron]

Originally posted by nickyh
here are two car forums - check them out then make up you own mind.

www.vwvortex.com
www.myvwlemon.com (ca?)


I to have an 02Jetta, i am selling it this year. I love the power and i cannot see myself getting into a Honda (blah interior underpowered) so it's a bit of a dilema for me. Do i keep it and spend a ton of money once my warranty runs out fixing the POS all the time of opt for less of a car in that price range?
Love the power - don't trust it enough to want to keep it.

Lemons happen with any car, and coil failures have exagerated the MK4 reliability reports (note how low the VW mk4 cars all scored on JD Power etc). Bosche made a bad revision of coils and because of platform sharing, those coils were in a LOT of cars.

I've had 2 blow, but since I carried spares it was fixed within 5 mins on the side of the road. No other problems since. VWs will blow sensors and rattle but the chances of blowing major components is slim. And your 2002 has a 4 year full/10 year powertrain warranty which is more than most cars.

Khyron

[archcommus]

Yikes!!

It has become apparent to me (I've only been really interested in cars for about the past six months or so, since I got my license) that cars in general are a very biased and personal topic. I have yet to really determine whether VWs are super reliable cars, average reliability, or just downright unreliable. Not that it matters, I'm not buying one, but I'd still like to know. But, it seems that there is no definite answer. Everyone has different opinions.

Yes, I can see the similarities in an A4 and VW Jetta. But, damn, that A4 still looks a whole lot nicer!

If I was in the market for a new car, I'm really not sure what kind I'd go for at all. I mean, techincally, a coupe would make most practical sense for me, since I usually only transport myself or one other person. And there are some really nice coupes. But, if I really wanted four doors, then you might say a compact sedan would make sense. Personally, though, I think most compact sedans look worse than coupes. Mainly because, I feel that coupes SHOULD be small, but a sedan should not. So when I see a four-door car packed into a very small body, I usually don't like how it looks. If I had unlimited cash, I'd love to get a huge, monstrous classy sedan with a powerful 300 or 400 HP engine. I love those more than anything else (Lexus LS, big Cadillacs, etc.). But, obviously, that would be a huge waste of money for someone like me. Whenever I am in the market, I think I'll spring for a sporty coupe, if I could afford it (Crossfire, Kompressor, etc.).

But anyway, if you want power at a good price in a compact sedan, it really does seem like the Jetta is unbeatable (except for its style, ugly, especially the front). Its only real competitor appears to be the Mazda3. I really wish there was another one, just so that the Jetta wouldn't be so all-dominating. There must be something else that competes well!

And also, what about that interior and overall fit issue? Do VW and other German models really have all Americans beat in that department? What domestics do you think are built equally well with well-appointed interiors (besides Mazda)?

[doc_speeder]

Originally posted by 1badPT


?? :dunno: Are you a moron perhaps or do you just enjoy speaking out your ass without the knowledge to back it up? I won't bother going through the whole company structure or explanation about platform sharing and marketing. Just have a look and realize how dumb it is to speak out your ass, and even stupider to call something a load of crap, when you don't know if in fact it is.

Platform sharing does not equal rebadging. In the example of the 1.6EL and civic. They are virtually mechanically and cosmetically identical. They share many body panels, suspension, running gear etc. Not so with the A4 and MK4 Jetta. They may share some powertrain items, floorpan, etc, but the similarity pretty much ends there. No body panels, drivetrains, suspension etc.
BTW, if your calling someone "stupider", the correct phrase would be "more stupid".

[1badPT]

Other than the fascia, headlights wheel and trim, the cars are the same. That would be a re-badge. Go ahead and criticize my vocabulary, if that's all you can bring to the table. The only reason I attacked you is you called my comment a load of crap. And if I was wrong, I'd admit it. I'm not.

For archcommus, interior finish is as much personal choice as the car itself, so you can get a well designed interior in a domestic or japanese car also. And yeah the Mazda3 is looking good :thumbsup:

[Grexx]

Originally posted by Khyron


Lemons happen with any car, and coil failures have exagerated the MK4 reliability reports (note how low the VW mk4 cars all scored on JD Power etc). Bosche made a bad revision of coils and because of platform sharing, those coils were in a LOT of cars.

I've had 2 blow, but since I carried spares it was fixed within 5 mins on the side of the road. No other problems since. VWs will blow sensors and rattle but the chances of blowing major components is slim. And your 2002 has a 4 year full/10 year powertrain warranty which is more than most cars.

Khyron

Yup, VW makes alot of lemon Cars then. GO VW.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by archcommus
Yikes!!

It has become apparent to me (I've only been really interested in cars for about the past six months or so, since I got my license) that cars in general are a very biased and personal topic. I have yet to really determine whether VWs are super reliable cars, average reliability, or just downright unreliable. Not that it matters, I'm not buying one, but I'd still like to know. But, it seems that there is no definite answer. Everyone has different opinions.

No, what it means is that cars are mass produced, so you can get lemon Hondas, Toyotas, VWs and Pontiacs. But there are trends based on statistics. A VW is NOT as reliable as a Toyota. VW's rattle and groan as they get older. But if you do your research, you know what you are getting into.


But anyway, if you want power at a good price in a compact sedan, it really does seem like the Jetta is unbeatable (except for its style, ugly, especially the front). Its only real competitor appears to be the Mazda3. I really wish there was another one, just so that the Jetta wouldn't be so all-dominating. There must be something else that competes well!

Acura RSX, Ford Focus, Nissan Sentra Spec V.



And also, what about that interior and overall fit issue? Do VW and other German models really have all Americans beat in that department? What domestics do you think are built equally well with well-appointed interiors (besides Mazda)?

Domestics (especially Pontiac) have traditionally had bad interiors (even their designers have said it wasn't a priority). But that's even more subjective than exterior styling, so get what you like. And judging by the recent models, they are improving dramatically. Most cars in the last few years are at least tollerable. Hyundai has very impressive interiors.

GM and Ford have both admitted they didn't really care about cars (the trucks were the bread and butter). They are returning their focus back to the cars and we'll see what they do now that they're actually putting some effort into it.

Khyron

[Khyron]

Originally posted by Grexx


Yup, VW makes alot of lemon Cars then. GO VW.

By your logic, I guess all Fords are Lemons because they had a Tire recall. Go sell it and get a Corolla and be done with it (unless of course, you get the sludge problem but that would make it a lemon).

Khyron

[doc_speeder]

An Audi A4 and Jetta are the same other than the fascia, headlights, and trim?????? OK, if you say so.

http://vortex3.rely.net/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Audi/A4%20-%20S4%20-%20RS4/S4%20(B6%20platform)#
http://vortex3.rely.net/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Audi/A4%20-%20S4%20-%20RS4/S4%20(B6%20platform)#
http://vortex3.rely.net/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Audi/A4%20-%20S4%20-%20RS4/S4%20(B6%20platform)#
http://vortex3.rely.net/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Audi/A4%20-%20S4%20-%20RS4/A4%20Cabriolet%20(B6%20platform)#
http://vortex3.rely.net/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Audi/A4%20-%20S4%20-%20RS4/A4%20Cabriolet%20(B6%20platform)#
http://vortex3.rely.net/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Volkswagen/Jetta%20-%20Bora%20-%20Vento/Jetta%20IV%20-%20Bora/Jetta%20-%20USA#
http://vortex3.rely.net/gallery/gallery2.php?mode=album&album=/Volkswagen/Jetta%20-%20Bora%20-%20Vento/Jetta%20IV%20-%20Bora/Jetta%20-%20USA#

[1badPT]

Most of your links don't work there champion. Look don't believe me, I really don't care. You win. Enjoy life.

[doc_speeder]

Originally posted by 1badPT
Look don't believe me, I really don't care. You win. Enjoy life.

I don't.
Yes, you do.
Thank you.
I will.

[Khyron]

The Jetta and Golf are the same (you can switch front ends, etc), but the A4 , the Passat and the Beetle are not. Similar but not swappable.

You're confusing the A4 chasis (Golf4/Jetta4) with the Audi A4 (totally misleading but they are totally separate). Even more confusing because they share drive trains. But the Audis don't even have the same bolt pattern, and almost none of the trim or body panels are interchangeable. The W8 sunroof console does work in the MK4 tho.

So the Golf and Jetta 4 have A4 as the chassis code, the A4 has B8 then VA then 1A as its chassis code. Confused yet? Good.

Khyron

[nickyh]

As much as what I bash the car - it was the all out winner against the other cars I looked at the time of purchase.
I have come from owning Jap in the past and I've had excellent luck with them - yes lemons happen in all manufactures, I did my research like every body else - everything indicated it was a good buy.
I loved the drive, the interior had what I wanted and for the price and fuel comsumption it is a great car.

I don't trust it though. I'm very dissapointed in the quality control problems VW has had and I don't want to wait out my 4 year warranty and then get stuck with major repairs.
BTW - the amount of clutch failure in the 1.8's is a little scary - nonwarranty work, no thanks!

[archcommus]

Khyron, thanks for the pick-apart of my post. I like it when everything gets covered.

Acura RSX, Ford Focus, Nissan Sentra Spec V......how are all those in terms of reliabilty and options offered? Sure, they're all in the same class, but from what I read the Jetta pretty much beats them all. Is this not entirely true? Consider power, options, quality, and price (well, no, the Jetta doesn't win in that category, it's expensive for a compact car).

Bad interiors meaning design? Or quality of materials? Probably both. Well, I'm not sure how good the materials are, but I sure do like the new GTO interior...yum.

If any of you were in the market for a nice, fast, standard vehicle (no automatics), what would you most likely spring for?

And please comment on this paragraph if you can:


If I was in the market for a new car, I'm really not sure what kind I'd go for at all. I mean, techincally, a coupe would make most practical sense for me, since I usually only transport myself or one other person. And there are some really nice coupes. But, if I really wanted four doors, then you might say a compact sedan would make sense. Personally, though, I think most compact sedans look worse than coupes. Mainly because, I feel that coupes SHOULD be small, but a sedan should not. So when I see a four-door car packed into a very small body, I usually don't like how it looks. If I had unlimited cash, I'd love to get a huge, monstrous classy sedan with a powerful 300 or 400 HP engine. I love those more than anything else (Lexus LS, big Cadillacs, etc.). But, obviously, that would be a huge waste of money for someone like me. Whenever I am in the market, I think I'll spring for a sporty coupe, if I could afford it (Crossfire, Kompressor, etc.).

I'd like to hear what people have to say on this. Agree? Disagree? Opinions?

Thanks for all the contributions!

[Khyron]

What problems are you talking about? The only major "WTF VW" issues are Coils (resolved so far), Mafs (Grr) , O2 sensors (Grr), and Window regulators (extended 8 year warranty). And rattles - never forget the rattles.

Less common issues reported (remember, we're talking dozens on a board with thosands of members). There have been some reports of premature rear brake pad wearing with some people, along with 2nd gear grind (VW has replaced syncros in this case). The clutch wear isn't a major issue, it tends to wear quicker with people that are chipped - but it's still at 40+ thousand miles and you buy a bigger aftermarket one anyways.

Plus for like 100 bucks US and a laptop you can pull your own engine codes and fix a LOT of stuff far cheaper than the dealer.

You should get on the local VW boards and get some help/suggestions on your car - might save you some money.

Khyron

[Fivewayradio]

Hi, I'm a noob, but I wanted to get two cents in on this VW reliability thing.

First the Mk2 VWs in the 80's and early 90's were amazingly reliable cars for the time . It gave VW a reputation for reliability that people still talk about. You can see tons of these cars still on the street. But similar cars from other manufacturers, even ones produced in greater numbers are mostly sitting in the junkyards now. That is testament to build quality. There are a few exceptions of course.

It could be that VW invested all it's engineering time into a very limited number of engines...you'd figure that putting 20 years of effort into the 1.8L you'd eventually get a pretty well designed engine. Anyway, VW's build quality slipped in the next generation. It wasn't too bad for the Mk3's but the Passats were notoriously unreliable. And unfortunately the Mk4s started out with a worse record for failure than the the Mk3s. And, no, it's not Bosch's fault that the skewed the JDPowers ratings. It was poor build quality all around. Yes Bosch built some shitty parts, but there was a ton of other stuff...brakes, mass airflow sensors, etc. that were simply poorly designed. Of course as someone pointed out, we're five years into the MK4 so a lot of those problems have been dealt with. Though a lot of people will still say that the new cars still don't compare to Mk2 in terms of reliabilty. This remains to be seen.

I think one thing that just about everyone who posted on this thread has overlooked is Consumer Expectation. No one expects a Kia to last forever or to be repair free beyond it's warranty period. It's a Kia, nuff said. You would have totally different expectations from a Mercedes on the other hand. I think VW has suffered from this kind of expectation. People have heard that VW will run forever without any major repairs. That might have been true in the 80s, if you vigorously maintained your car, but it's not true now. And it's not true of any car...except maybe old volvos or old mercedes 240 d's...any anything with a 225 slant 6 in it.

Anyway, I rambled. Brief overview: Old VW's good. New VWs, not so good, but no worse than anything else.

[nine8civicSi]

Originally posted by Khyron

Plus for like 100 bucks US and a laptop you can pull your own engine codes and fix a LOT of stuff far cheaper than the dealer.



Khyron

too bad most people arent that mechanically inclined and will not scarficie this when buying a car.....especially when its brand spanking new!

[Khyron]

Originally posted by nine8civicSi


too bad most people arent that mechanically inclined and will not scarficie this when buying a car.....especially when its brand spanking new!

ARGH - that's why it's under warranty. I was commenting on the concern about how hard it will be to fix 5 years after. You don't need a Vagcom if you are under bumper-bumper warranty. :banghead:

Edit: I hate JD power surveys. You know why Hummer is high on the list? Owners complained to the dealer about bad fuel economy. :nut:

Khyron

[Grexx]

Originally posted by Khyron


ARGH - that's why it's under warranty. I was commenting on the concern about how hard it will be to fix 5 years after. You don't need a Vagcom if you are under bumper-bumper warranty. :banghead:

Edit: I hate JD power surveys. You know why Hummer is high on the list? Owners complained to the dealer about bad fuel economy. :nut:

Khyron

Yup, if you like to spend your time in dealerships. Time is money for most people man. I have wasted so much time in the dealers for this car including the weekends. I'm sorry to spend that much money with a Brand new car it's just doesn't work out.

And please dude. Don't get so defensive.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by Grexx


Yup, if you like to spend your time in dealerships. Time is money for most people man. I have wasted so much time in the dealers for this car including the weekends. I'm sorry to spend that much money with a Brand new car it's just doesn't work out.

And please dude. Don't get so defensive.

Dude, I don't care if you sell your car. I would never say a MK4 VW is high on the list of reliable cars. But people who have a personal problem with their car, then make broad sweeping generalizations based on that experience are frustrating. It happens on all the boards - "All civics are POS because my timing belt snapped" or "All toyotas suck because the oil turns to sludge after 20,000 miles with no oil-changes", etc.

If you think ANY car brand will keep you out of the dealers, I have a bridge to sell you.

And you still haven't said what all these "Major dealer problems" were.

Khyron

[Grexx]

Originally posted by Khyron


Dude, I don't care if you sell your car. I would never say a MK4 VW is high on the list of reliable cars. But people who have a personal problem with their car, then make broad sweeping generalizations based on that experience are frustrating. It happens on all the boards - "All civics are POS because my timing belt snapped" or "All toyotas suck because the oil turns to sludge after 20,000 miles with no oil-changes", etc.

If you think ANY car brand will keep you out of the dealers, I have a bridge to sell you.

And you still haven't said what all these "Major dealer problems" were.

Khyron

I've own these cars before and never have any problems not a single thing.

86 Toyota MR2
88 Mazda RX-7
91 Nissan Sentra
2000 Honda Prelude

Most of these cars I bought used and 3 years apart I kept them. Not a single glitch.

I owned the Jetta almost 2 years now and 4 coils later; o2 sensor; Clutch problems; Brakes; Leak on the headlights; Power windows sometimes doesn't work; and rattles. This shouldn't happen to a 2 year old car specially brand new. Not this many problems.

I know I'm not the only one in this forum who have similar problems.

And I am getting rid of this in spring. I'll take my chances to the Jap cars. May be I'll get a COROLLA...hehe

[Bonka]

Originally posted by Fivewayradio
Hi, I'm a noob, but I wanted to get two cents in on this VW reliability thing.

First the Mk2 VWs in the 80's and early 90's were amazingly reliable cars for the time . It gave VW a reputation for reliability that people still talk about. You can see tons of these cars still on the street. But similar cars from other manufacturers, even ones produced in greater numbers are mostly sitting in the junkyards now. That is testament to build quality. There are a few exceptions of course.

It could be that VW invested all it's engineering time into a very limited number of engines...you'd figure that putting 20 years of effort into the 1.8L you'd eventually get a pretty well designed engine. Anyway, VW's build quality slipped in the next generation. It wasn't too bad for the Mk3's but the Passats were notoriously unreliable. And unfortunately the Mk4s started out with a worse record for failure than the the Mk3s. And, no, it's not Bosch's fault that the skewed the JDPowers ratings. It was poor build quality all around. Yes Bosch built some shitty parts, but there was a ton of other stuff...brakes, mass airflow sensors, etc. that were simply poorly designed. Of course as someone pointed out, we're five years into the MK4 so a lot of those problems have been dealt with. Though a lot of people will still say that the new cars still don't compare to Mk2 in terms of reliabilty. This remains to be seen.

I think one thing that just about everyone who posted on this thread has overlooked is Consumer Expectation. No one expects a Kia to last forever or to be repair free beyond it's warranty period. It's a Kia, nuff said. You would have totally different expectations from a Mercedes on the other hand. I think VW has suffered from this kind of expectation. People have heard that VW will run forever without any major repairs. That might have been true in the 80s, if you vigorously maintained your car, but it's not true now. And it's not true of any car...except maybe old volvos or old mercedes 240 d's...any anything with a 225 slant 6 in it.

Anyway, I rambled. Brief overview: Old VW's good. New VWs, not so good, but no worse than anything else.

Very valid points.

Simply put, cars these days are just built better than they were even as recent as 5-6yrs ago. The MK2 being ahead of its time during that time period is a VERY VALID point, but also consider that the competition at the time was more or less, playing a little catchup. I probably shouldn't have said this since I was very young and I only remember the competition in the econo market as Hyundai Pony's, rust bucket Civics, among others..

As technology improves and consumer expectations increase, it's just industry standard for automakers to move into that direction. Unfortunately, consumer PERCEPTIONS play a huge factor, second behind the FIRST IMPRESSION a car gives to the user. It essentially sets the precedent to how they will react to other models under that make in the future.

As far as MK2's go, the owners are a special breed on their own. The reason why you see so many MK2's out there is simply because I think there's a bit of a prestige factor at play here, as well as the "classic" styling of the VW with regards to the MK2 generations that these owners love. Believe me, no cars look as good as many of those without a lot of work put into them, and that's what they're willing to do to drive a little piece of a forever gone classic. Also probably a side effect to this is that they will say those cars run like clockwork but typically don't disclose how much work they have to put into it to keep it running that way. Like an earlier post, VW's typically do need more attention then other cars..Frankly, it can be viewed either way but you need to know that there's another side to it.

Going back to consumer expectations again, today's consumer primary looks for "as much as I can get for the smallest price" type deal. Frankly, there's almost a total disregard for other, quite possibly MORE important aspects to a car like reliability. They'd rather get the GPS navigation system or the premium sound as well as the looks to round it off. Then when something goes wrong with the car, they bitch and complain. Automakers build cars according to what consumers want and ask for, and what they want now is standard features, sleek design, quality materials at a price that is attainable to them. I can't nor I would question the other aspects of a car (such as mechanicals, etc) but I am still a firm believer that cars are built as well as they've ever had.

Consumers are just asking too much for something that is man-made and engineered, no matter how refined or how much you pay for it.

[Ducati]

Consumer Reports and Lemon Aid all report poor reliability from Volkswagons - All types of VW's, but especially the VR6 engines.

That's too bad to read, as when my old diesel is ready to be retired, I wouldn't mind a Jetta TDI or the new Passat TDI that is supposed to be out soon.

Oh well, I kinda like the Subaru's. A Legacy GT wagon would be nice if it was available with a 5 speed - but it isnt, and I hate the cladding on the Outback Legacy. The Impreza Outback is nicer looking. It might be my first choice. Or the new Forrester XT.

Maybe I'll wait. I am interested in seeing what this new Scion line from Toyota has to offer. There is something compellingly funky about that little box on wheels, the Scion xB.

[Khyron]

See? That's the problem. Coils were bad, so that screwed all the VW cars (no matter that it's a 20 dollar part and that all of them can be switched in 10 mins). There are no engine issues with any of the VWs except for a bit excessive oil consumption on the 2.0. The TDI is a rock solid engine that suffers from occasional carbon build up - that's it.

BTW - if you have a CR subscription, can you look up why Mazda 3 isn't recommended. I haven't heard anything bad about it (yet). Oh hey, Passat is recommended now - amazing. And the Toureg did well in most mag shootouts.

And Top Gear raved about the Phaeton - maybe there's hope after all.

Khyron

[archcommus]

Bah, it's basically an A8 for nine grand less. I'd rather have the A8.

[switch]

Originally posted by Ducati
Oh well, I kinda like the Subaru's. A Legacy GT wagon would be nice if it was available with a 5 speed - but it isnt, and I hate the cladding on the Outback Legacy. The Impreza Outback is nicer looking. It might be my first choice. Or the new Forrester XT.

Maybe I'll wait. I am interested in seeing what this new Scion line from Toyota has to offer. There is something compellingly funky about that little box on wheels, the Scion xB.

Forester XT is a SLEEPER -- for a minivan/wagon it hauls :D What about a TS or a WRX wagon?

I am not a big fan of subby's latest trend of lego cladding -- looks cheap.

[Daddymax]

I'd never buy a VW myself.... too many of my friends have problems with them.

[T5_X]

Originally posted by Ducati
Consumer Reports and Lemon Aid all report poor reliability from Volkswagons - All types of VW's, but especially the VR6 engines.

That's too bad to read, as when my old diesel is ready to be retired, I wouldn't mind a Jetta TDI or the new Passat TDI that is supposed to be out soon.

Oh well, I kinda like the Subaru's. A Legacy GT wagon would be nice if it was available with a 5 speed - but it isnt, and I hate the cladding on the Outback Legacy. The Impreza Outback is nicer looking. It might be my first choice. Or the new Forrester XT.

Maybe I'll wait. I am interested in seeing what this new Scion line from Toyota has to offer. There is something compellingly funky about that little box on wheels, the Scion xB.

Consumer reports considers all problems equal in weight, so to consumer reports, a car with a blown tranny is just as reliable as a car with a broken door handle, since each had one thing go wrong. Fortunately, if you actually take a look at a consumer reports, they will break down the problems into categories so you can decide for yourself. This is especially useful when looking at cars that are 10 years old, then you can see which ones have little annyoying problems with electrical stuff and which ones have been blowing expensive mechanical components.

Since when did the Legacy GT not come with a standard? When I bought a car in the summer, I had it narrowed down to my volvo and a 99 Legacy GT wagon, a few things turned me away, the size (was not very big) the fuel economy, the fact that the DOHCs of the time are notorious for blown headgaskets (not an easy job on a flat engine) and it was horribly slow... the superior drivetrain was not sufficient enough to make up for these downfalls ;) But wait for the next legacy to come out. It will have something like 280 HP :thumbsup:

My next (daily driven) car will most likely be a Forester XT... unless I can afford a V70R or Audi allroad. :D They are simply an amazing deal. You get amazing performance, versatility, safety and practicality for a VERY decent price....Best of all... MANUAL TRANNY!!!!

Are we getting scion here? If so when? They do seem cool, but if I was getting something like that I think I'd shell out another couple grand, sacrifice a little fuel economy and get the Honda Element for performance reasons.

[maximus]

Originally posted by 1badPT

I can't tell from this whether you know about the A4 being a rebadged Jetta -

I was just wondering if you could clarify on this. I am not flaming you, I would just like to hear the reasons why this is so. This is the first I have heard of this.
:dunno:

[Khyron]

Originally posted by maximus


I was just wondering if you could clarify on this. I am not flaming you, I would just like to hear the reasons why this is so. This is the first I have heard of this.
:dunno:

Read the thread again. :thumbsup:

Edit: Actually, it's a horrid mess, so the answer is they aren't the same.

Khyron

[maximus]

Originally posted by Khyron


Read the thread again. :thumbsup:

Edit: Actually, it's a horrid mess, so the answer is they aren't the same.

Khyron

Thats what I thought.
Thanks :thumbsup:

[soulint]

Ok! This gave me a better idea of what I am looking at. Long page but informative. I am considering buying a car. I am looking at 2 classes of cars: 1st=G35 coup 6MT (37k), 2nd=Jetta GLI VR6 200hp (27k). The chosen car will depend on finding the right financing.
I have been shopping around and in the G35 class; I think it's the best. I am talking the higher models with 19" & suspension etc. Over 270 horses of pure power and what a crazy handling. This thing of putting the engine behind the axles and extending the wheel base is a crazy idea, but nice results.
On the other hand, I was trying to compare the Jetta to something else and I can't find anything to compare it to. I know about the lower models of Jetta comparing to Mazda3 etc. But the higher class Jetta with 200hp L6 engine, what else should I consider?
I test drove the Jetta GLI and what an engine. The car is extremely responsive and great handling as well. It lacks some 30-50 horses (personal thought) for which I am considering to add a chip in the mix.
I would appreciate any comments or new direction to send me looking.

Also, any info on how to chose the right chip for the extra 50hp's would be greatly helpful and appreciated.

Thanks all.
Soulint. :rolleyes:

[JordanLotoski]

Originally posted by nine8civicSi
theres tons!!

honda accord, mazda 6, nissan maxima , although most of those wil compare to a rather loaded up jetta....but most would consider the jetta underpowered compared to any of those cars!


u cant compare a nissan maxima to an accord and a mazda 6..maybe an altima..maxima compares more with the TL, A4, g35 sedan

[soulint]

By the way, Audis are build by VW. And if you look closely at the new 04 Passat, it has somehow the same body than the old A4. Just a few modifications here and there. On the other side, the A4 has the 1.8T engine of VW, etc etc.
I was told all this by the actual salesperson at VW. VW actually owns a whole bunch of other cars like Land Rovers and a couple of the newest Lamburgini models (not sure which one) that has two VW engines alligned. Some crazy stuff ...

[Khyron]

Originally posted by soulint
Ok! This gave me a better idea of what I am looking at. Long page but informative. I am considering buying a car. I am looking at 2 classes of cars: 1st=G35 coup 6MT (37k), 2nd=Jetta GLI VR6 200hp (27k). The chosen car will depend on finding the right financing.
I have been shopping around and in the G35 class; I think it's the best. I am talking the higher models with 19" & suspension etc. Over 270 horses of pure power and what a crazy handling. This thing of putting the engine behind the axles and extending the wheel base is a crazy idea, but nice results.
On the other hand, I was trying to compare the Jetta to something else and I can't find anything to compare it to. I know about the lower models of Jetta comparing to Mazda3 etc. But the higher class Jetta with 200hp L6 engine, what else should I consider?
I test drove the Jetta GLI and what an engine. The car is extremely responsive and great handling as well. It lacks some 30-50 horses (personal thought) for which I am considering to add a chip in the mix.
I would appreciate any comments or new direction to send me looking.

Also, any info on how to chose the right chip for the extra 50hp's would be greatly helpful and appreciated.

Thanks all.
Soulint. :rolleyes:

Hrm forgot about all about this thread.

G35 vs GLI is not fair - if you can comfortably afford the difference, you get a proper sports car with RWD. When I was cross shopping Jetta vs WRX, the wrx was obviously better, but for the extra 10 grand I got stuff for the house instead (plus stupid missing things on the wrx like folding rear seats). That's a decision for you alone.

Chips for the 1.8T don't add 50 hp - it's about 10-20 hp and 40-50 TQ. Still huge gains for the cost.

Khyron

[soulint]

Originally posted by Khyron


Hrm forgot about all about this thread.

G35 vs GLI is not fair - if you can comfortably afford the difference, you get a proper sports car with RWD. When I was cross shopping Jetta vs WRX, the wrx was obviously better, but for the extra 10 grand I got stuff for the house instead (plus stupid missing things on the wrx like folding rear seats). That's a decision for you alone.

Chips for the 1.8T don't add 50 hp - it's about 10-20 hp and 40-50 TQ. Still huge gains for the cost.

Khyron

I am not sure if I explained myself well enough. I am actually looking at 2 different classes of cars. You are right and you can't compare the G35 to teh Jetta. The car I am buying will depend on how much money I can get from the bank.

First class of cars, I am considering the loaded VW Jetta VR6, 2.8 litre L6 engine (V shaped engine not cylinders = the name VR6), 6 speed manual Transmission, 200 HP, 195 pounds of torque, about $27k in the US. I don't know what other cars to compare it to. The WRX did not do it a bit for me. I think I am getting a bit older and I love the torque of a 6 cylinder engine. The 4 Cyl. always seems that it's pushing itself too hard to get where I want it to be.

The other car is the Infinity G35 fully loaded (except for distractions like navigation etc) with a 3.5 litre V6 engine, 6 speed MT, 280 HP, 270 pounds of torque, about 37K in the US. I have to admit that I am sold on this baby after I test drove it and I saw this video: http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&postid=581800#post581800.

Also, the chip questions still stands.
Thanks guys.