Opinions on Leasing

[leftwing]

I have been thinking about leasing a vehicle recently and am intrigued by it. I have never thought about leasing a vehicle before ( I have financed and owned outright) but I have kind of realized that I get bored of my vehicles after only a year or two anyway, so why not lease, that way I can walk away from my vehicle after a couple years, then upgrade to a newer one. Also with the cheaper monthly payments leasing offers I can presumably get a nicer vehicle.

Question: are lease rates negotiable?
- Can you lease 2 and 3 year old models, or just the newest model?

I'd like to hear any of your guys' stories about leasing, why you would or wouldn't do it. If you've done it, why you liked or didn't like it.

[max_boost]

Leasing is great if the numbers are right. I try to look for low interest rate, and high residual. Subaru's are great for leasing. I haven't really followed the other manufacturers.

[rage2]

What max_boost says. The right combination, you'll come out ahead of purchase new and sell used if you plan on returning the vehicle.

[nissanK]

Originally posted by leftwing

Question: are lease rates negotiable?
- Can you lease 2 and 3 year old models, or just the newest model?

Leasing is only available for the new vehicle models.

I've been in a lease for the last 3 years (still have 1 left) BAD IDEA I've learned my lesson.

Wife and I were in 2 leases, we bought out her's 2 years in advance owed waaaaay more than the car was worth, sold it and took a loss of 8000. We are just riding out the other lease right now since it only has 12 months left. Lower payments per month are fine, but bottom line is we don't own the vehicle, which I assume you are already familiar with.

A simple calculator will show that it is the most expensive way to purchase/own a vehicle. Do the math. Let's say you go for an average lease of $500 a month. (This can be high but mine is around this and includes all the extended warranty BS, again, I learned my lesson) For 2 years you will shell out $12,000.

Sure you can bring the car back at the end of the term but there will be hidden costs. Excessive wear and tear, mileage over the contracted limit, etc..... Basically they need to get the car back to "showroom condition" in order to make any money in re-selling that vehicle. Plus at the end, YOU DON"T HAVE A VEHICLE ANYMORE AND HAVE TO DO IT AGAIN.

You have the option to buy the car out at the end, but chances are that you will pay them a high residual price of the car at the end of the term.

Doesn't matter if the lease is for 1 year or 4. You're transferring the risk the the car devaluation from the dealer to you.

[rage2]

Worst post ever. :rofl:

If you do your research, you can *easily* be ahead of the game. A good lease rate and residual can allow you to spend less money than buying said vehicle and selling it after 3 years.

If you want to keep the car, leasing doesn't make sense unless the lease interest rates are lower than finance rates. Which is never.

As for damage, again, research! I've leased Mercedes before back in the day, and you can have damage on the car as long as it can be covered by a credit card sized card that they provide. It doesn't need to be in showroom condition. They also offer a $400 package spread over your lease duration which covers up to $2000 of wear and tear, windshield, etc. Again, research is your friend. If you blindly go into a lease, you'll probably get fucked.

Search for the Mercedes B200 thread that is an example of a great lease deal if you don't want to keep the car after warranty is over.

[bigbadboss101]

Our current 2010 WRX lease is good cuz of the high residual. Was going to check on a new Subaru but noticed the residuals are not as good as they used to be.

[Aleks]

Im on my 4th Subaru lease right now. Would never finance or pay cash for those cars. Super high residual 0.5% interest rate, high resale afterward = many options at the end. I drive 18k per year if that so mileage is not an issue.

I leased a WRX for just over $300 a month tax in a while back, covering Freight + doc fee up front. How can you go wrong?

[nissanK]

Originally posted by rage2
Worst post ever. :rofl:

Oh come on, there's gotta be worse posts than mine :nut:

EDIT: Bottom line is I won't ever lease again.

[MrSector9]

No different then if you go in with no research or knowledge in a purchase you can get screwed.


Like everyone says, with the right lease, on the right car with the right interest you are way better off if you never plan on keeping that car out of warranty.

I think you really have to watch out on leasing with anything under the $30,000 range... well that and most domestic vehicles.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by leftwing
I have been thinking about leasing a vehicle recently and am intrigued by it. What car?


Originally posted by nissanK


Oh come on, there's gotta be worse posts than mine :nut:

EDIT: Bottom line is I won't ever lease again.

OK. lol

[benyl]

Originally posted by nissanK


Oh come on, there's gotta be worse posts than mine :nut:

EDIT: Bottom line is I won't ever lease again.

Not really. It is a pretty bad post.

Timing is important too. Getting the new model (2012) in Sept-Nov usually has the best residuals.

The last car I leased had a 61% residual after 3 years. My payments were a full $200 less than everyone else (more than 20% less).

When I gave the car back, the dealer wasn't interested in buying it and sent it back to auction as the buyout was higher than the used ones they had on the lot.

[Ven]

Some of my friends like to lease their 3 Series BMW's to perpetuate the fragile illusion of their financial status. Nowadays cars are sold on what payment you can afford, not what car you can afford, and leasing really helps the status crowd meet their social goals. Unless it's for business purposes or car allowance I can't see how leasing is a smart decision for the average consumer. It's renting a car. Deposit is gone, 2-3 years of monthly payments are gone, you have no equity, you either give the car back or sell it because you can't afford the buy out anyway. You have less than what you started with and nothing to show in the end. If you put yourself in that position because you get "bored" of your cars every couple years you're either wealthy and don't care about the numbers because the car is just a tool to get you to the Glencoe, or you're just stupid IMHO.

Works for me though. I like to buy private sale lease returns. I get a low mileage, late model, current production, dealer serviced, warrantied car for cheap. I don't pay a deposit, the "off the lot" and time depreciation is shouldered by the previous guy, I don't pay tax, and in every case I've managed to haggle down the seller even further and get them to pay all the transfer and doc fees because they're so panic'd to ditch the vehicle. Selection is always great too :)

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Ven
Some of my friends like to lease their 3 Series BMW's to perpetuate the fragile illusion of their financial status. Nowadays cars are sold on what payment you can afford, not what car you can afford, and leasing really helps the status crowd meet their social goals. Unless it's for business purposes or car allowance I can't see how leasing is a smart decision for the average consumer. It's renting a car. Deposit is gone, 2-3 years of monthly payments are gone, you have no equity, you either give the car back or sell it because you can't afford the buy out anyway. You have less than what you started with and nothing to show in the end. If you put yourself in that position because you get "bored" of your cars every couple years you're either wealthy and don't care about the numbers because the car is just a tool to get you to the Glencoe, or you're just stupid IMHO.

Works for me though. I like to buy private sale lease returns. I get a low mileage, late model, current production, dealer serviced, warrantied car for cheap. I don't pay a deposit, the "off the lot" and time depreciation is shouldered by the previous guy, I don't pay tax, and in every case I've managed to haggle down the seller even further and get them to pay all the transfer and doc fees because they're so panic'd to ditch the vehicle. Selection is always great too :)

So if you financed a car and decided to sell it in 2-3 years isn't that the same as renting it as you pretty much just paid for the depreciation of the car and have nothing to show for it?

Leasing itself can be cheaper than financing even if you buy the car out at the end. The fact that people lease so they can afford cars they wouldn't be able to finance is a whole different story.

[nissanK]

The point Ven is getting at is that he buys the used off lease vehicles, gets a great car and the main depreciation has already de-valued the car.

If you wanna pay $500 a month for 36 months (as per the B200 thread) that's $18,000 just thrown away for the privilege of driving a new car. As he already mentioned it's to LOOK like you own the car to impress people you don't know.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by nissanK


Wife and I were in 2 leases, we bought out her's 2 years in advance owed waaaaay more than the car was worth, sold it and took a loss of 8000.



What was the idea behind buying out a lease 2 years early, then turning around and selling it? That makes no sense to do that.

[nissanK]

^Didn't need 2 vehicles, therefore we were wasting money on the second lease. So instead of paying $405 a month for another 3 years = $14580 we bought out at 19K, sold the car for 11K and took a loss of $8000.

If we just gave up and brought the car back, we would have owed that $14580 on the remaining lease term. So either we lose $14580 or $8000. That's a pretty huge difference for a car we don't need.

(I double checked the term, it was 5 years, we bought out after 2 instead of 3)

EDIT: We needed 2 cars to start, but we moved and 2 cars were not needed anymore.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by nissanK
The point Ven is getting at is that he buys the used off lease vehicles, gets a great car and the main depreciation has already de-valued the car.

If you wanna pay $500 a month for 36 months (as per the B200 thread) that's $18,000 just thrown away for the privilege of driving a new car. As he already mentioned it's to LOOK like you own the car to impress people you don't know.

That still doesn't mean that leasing is any worse than paying cash or financing in ALL cases. Some cars like Hyundai/Kia make 0 sense to lease to an average customer. Cars like some Subarus and some Hondas are actually cheaper to lease than finance over the life of the car.

I'm not arguing that if you lease strictly so you can drive around in a car you'd never be able to finance is usually a very bad idea.

[nissanK]

^^Leasing is worse because you potentially never own the vehicle. Of course cars are never an asset, but if you purchase the car new/used (I mean cash purchase) you own the vehicle. Obviously buying new is dumb because the car loses so much value.

How much more could you do with no car payment or lease payment driving a reliable used vehicle?

[craigcd]

Originally posted by benyl

Not really. It is a pretty bad post.

Timing is important too. Getting the new model (2012) in Sept-Nov usually has the best residuals.


I deal with company fleets for a living, if 1/2 the people I dealt with understood this my job would be so much easier. People do not understand that buying a model year older for a couple thousand less is not a "deal". :banghead:

[Ven]

Originally posted by Aleks


So if you financed a car and decided to sell it in 2-3 years isn't that the same as renting it as you pretty much just paid for the depreciation of the car and have nothing to show for it?

Sort of, you'll take a shit kicking just the same. Money spent and not much to show. You will have some equity in the car though since you'll have owned some portion of the car through finance payments. Adjusted it won't be much but you will see some of your paid money back by selling the car. Not with leasing, it was a rent payment, it's money gone. Typically, when you buy a car, and sign the papers to finance to own, you're probably under the belief that you'll see the payments to the end and own a car. Of course life throws curveballs and sometimes that doesn't happen.


Leasing itself can be cheaper than financing even if you buy the car out at the end. The fact that people lease so they can afford cars they wouldn't be able to finance is a whole different story.

But almost nobody buys the car out at the end, and I'm not convinced on the numbers that it's cheaper. If you can't come up with a lump sum to buy the car out, you'll be back to making payments again and at a higher rate. Everyone has good intentions and I've bought a few cars from people who leased the vehicle thinking in 2-3 years they'll be making enough money to buy the car out of start finance payments. It just doesn't happen. Typical consumers lease because they get more car for less payment without thinking about end consequences. The salesman tries to sell you a seemingly perfect and sensible future that almost never materializes for most people.

[Ven]

Originally posted by Aleks


Cars like some Subarus and some Hondas are actually cheaper to lease than finance over the life of the car.



Define "...over the life of the car..."

[ercchry]

Originally posted by nissanK
^Didn't need 2 vehicles, therefore we were wasting money on the second lease. So instead of paying $405 a month for another 3 years = $14580 we bought out at 19K, sold the car for 11K and took a loss of $8000.

If we just gave up and brought the car back, we would have owed that $14580 on the remaining lease term. So either we lose $14580 or $8000. That's a pretty huge difference for a car we don't need.

(I double checked the term, it was 5 years, we bought out after 2 instead of 3)

EDIT: We needed 2 cars to start, but we moved and 2 cars were not needed anymore.

Option 3: offer someone $1000-$2000 to take over lease... :nut:

[nissanK]

^^Yeah that's always the simple answer but it never works out.

Tried it to start but then saw that the dealer was selling brand new vehicles (same model and options) for dirt cheap. Unless we got a total moron to take it over, it was never going to happen

[rage2]

Originally posted by nissanK
EDIT: Bottom line is I won't ever lease again.
You went into a lease for the wrong reasons, summed up nicely in your next post:


Originally posted by nissanK
^Didn't need 2 vehicles, therefore we were wasting money on the second lease.

EDIT: We needed 2 cars to start, but we moved and 2 cars were not needed anymore.
I'm going to write up a nice leasing guide between breaks today.


Originally posted by Ven
Some of my friends like to lease their 3 Series BMW's to perpetuate the fragile illusion of their financial status. Nowadays cars are sold on what payment you can afford, not what car you can afford, and leasing really helps the status crowd meet their social goals.
These are the same people that are leasing at high interest rates and low residuals. That is throwing money away, but you can buy out at the low residual and resell which will at least offset the losses a little (just the interest hit).


Originally posted by nissanK
The point Ven is getting at is that he buys the used off lease vehicles, gets a great car and the main depreciation has already de-valued the car.
That's no different than buying a used car. We're talking about how to spend the least money to buy a new car, which really is a bad investment any way you look at it.


Originally posted by nissanK
If you wanna pay $500 a month for 36 months (as per the B200 thread) that's $18,000 just thrown away for the privilege of driving a new car. As he already mentioned it's to LOOK like you own the car to impress people you don't know.
Unless you pay cash for a car, you don't own the car. Simple as that.


Originally posted by nissanK
^^Leasing is worse because you potentially never own the vehicle. Of course cars are never an asset, but if you purchase the car new/used (I mean cash purchase) you own the vehicle. Obviously buying new is dumb because the car loses so much value.
Ownership doesn't make sense for depreciating assets. It's about minimizing your losses. Do you want to own the car for "status"?

I'll get on my lease guide today.

[Ven]

Originally posted by nissanK
^^Yeah that's always the simple answer but it never works out.

Tried it to start but then saw that the dealer was selling brand new vehicles (same model and options) for dirt cheap. Unless we got a total moron to take it over, it was never going to happen

This. A strong residual makes your lease payment small but can hurt you on the other end when you need to sell or buy it out. In this case the price can be a little too close to new. Also on the used market you're competing with sellers who own their cars and can price to market value, which is very very often lower than your residual. And even if it's not that close people would rather buy new at 0% or 0.9% than pay a LOC or loan at 3.9%+ on your used stuff. Dealers sell you a high residual as a good thing, to show you how valuable your car is when the lease term is up, and how much money you can get for it if you decide to sell. It's not true. A high residual means the car will likely come back to the dealer where they can sell it again for a second round of profit. If they sold leases with a high monthly and low residual what would be the incentive to lease then? You'd be paying at or near financed rates anyway. No matter what you try to convince yourself of leasing is a poor choice for the average consumer. Just MHO though :)

[benyl]

Originally posted by Ven


Also on the used market you're competing with sellers who own their cars and can price to market value, which is very very often lower than your residual.

How the hell is that a good argument not to lease? If the residual is high, that means the finance company takes the hit on the depreciation.

What kind of high interest shady leases did you get yourself into?

Every lease that I have had has been "walk away." Meaning, I have the option to purchase at the end.

If the residual is higher than the car is worth, great. I win. If not, I had the option to buy and sell it for the higher price... again, I win.

I paid cash for my current car. I kinda regret it. Why? Because selling a car is a hassle. With a lease, I know when the term ends and I just give it back. No hassle.

[Redlyne_mr2]

Ven... it none of this has anything to do with the dealer, and you're looking at it all from the wrong perspective.

1. Your residual is high, that drops your lease payment. If the value of the car isn't there in 3-4 years when the lease matures give the car back and move on to something else. Instead of losing tens of thousands in depreciation you're paid a monthly payment for the use of the car.

2. Your residual is low, the payments are higher as the lease is more front loaded. You enjoy the car and buy it out at the end, maybe you keep it, maybe you sell it and make some money back.

Those are the 2 scenarios on closed ended leases. Now if you're talking open ended leases that's a whole different ballgame. I'm not a fan of open ended leases, that's when the client is responsible for the buyout regardless of where the vehicle is positioned in the market. I've also seen open ended leases with variable interest rates. :nut:

Most people only keep their cars for 3-4 years, if I was trying to sell you a house for $400 000 and I told you that in 3 years it was going to be worth $100 000 would you rent it or buy it from me?

[Abeo]

Originally posted by Ven
No matter what you try to convince yourself of leasing is a poor choice for the average consumer. Just MHO though :)

I'll use my truck as an example:

Cost: $20,000, 5 year financing

At the end of 5 years, its worth at best 5 grand. Cost to drive the truck for 5 years: $250 a month (15k/60 mo). Cost to finance the truck is obviously higher than that.

The lease rate is much lower than $250, and you won't have to sell at the end to recoup the 5k of 'equity'. You are less out of pocket leasing at the end of the term if you decide not to buy out the vehicle. It would have been a better choice to lease the truck if I knew I'd get bored of it so quickly, but I chose to finance it.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Ven


Define "...over the life of the car..."

Lower lease than finance rate for equivalent term. If you give the car back with hi residual you come out further ahead than if you financed the car and tried to sell it privatelly after same period of time. With high residual the leasing company takes on the depreciation risk.

This really hurt a lot of companies, especially BMW back in 2008/2009.

Now if you treat your cars like crap, there will be penalties at the end of lease but same is true if you tried to sell a financed car privatelly that's been beat and needs work.

[Ven]

Originally posted by benyl


How the hell is that a good argument not to lease? If the residual is high, that means the finance company takes the hit on the depreciation.

What kind of high interest shady leases did you get yourself into?

Every lease that I have had has been "walk away." Meaning, I have the option to purchase at the end.

If the residual is higher than the car is worth, great. I win. If not, I had the option to buy and sell it for the higher price... again, I win.

I paid cash for my current car. I kinda regret it. Why? Because selling a car is a hassle. With a lease, I know when the term ends and I just give it back. No hassle.

If your intention is to hand the car back who cares about the residual value, you paid your deposit and rent and the transaction is over. If you intend to sell the car, or have to sell the car, and the residual is high your owing amount could be higher than the actual market value of the car. Same goes if you finance the remaining value to try and own the car. You could be trying to sell or finance your $24000 lease obligation in a market that has that car pegged at $19,900.

Try consigning your car if you want to avoid dealing with the public.

[Ven]

double tap

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Ven


If your intention is to hand the car back who cares about the residual value, you paid your deposit and rent and the transaction is over. If you intend to sell the car, or have to sell the car, and the residual is high your owing amount could be higher than the actual market value of the car. Same goes if you finance the remaining value to try an own the car. You could be trying to sell or finance your $24000 lease obligation in a market that has that car pegged at $19,900.

Try consigning your car if you want to avoid dealing with the public. If you intend to walk away then a higher residual gives you lower payments and an overall lower cost of ownership.

If you intend to sell the car then why would you lease with a high residual in the first place?

If you have to sell the car then that higher residual means lower payments for whoever you get to take over the lease (which becomes a lot easier when the payments are low).

This seems to keep coming back to people not doing what's best for their situation and/or not understanding how to make a lease work for them.

[Ven]

Originally posted by Mibz
If you intend to walk away then a higher residual gives you lower payments and an overall lower cost of ownership.

If you intend to sell the car then why would you lease with a high residual in the first place? This seems to keep coming back to people not doing what's best for their situation and/or not understanding how to make a lease work for them.

Because cars are sold on payment affordability. Leasing is cheap. People will rationalize themselves into just about anything when they get excited about a car.

[Ven]

Originally posted by Mibz
If you intend to walk away then a higher residual gives you lower payments and an overall lower cost of OPERATION.

If you have to sell the car then that higher residual means lower payments for whoever you get to take over the lease (which becomes a lot easier when the payments are low).




Changed a word in your first statement.
You'll need to sell that lease take over to a moron, because as cozy as those low monthlys look there's a gorilla of a payment that needs to be delt with at the end of the term. That wouldn't be attractive to me anyway.

[Mibz]

Sorry for the ninja edit, but my point still stands. If people are putting themselves into these vehicles because of the shiny low payment without understanding what they're getting into then leasing isn't the problem.

Don't hate the game when the players have their heads up their asses.


Originally posted by Ven

Changed a word in your first statement.
You'll need to sell that lease take over to a moron, because as cozy as those low monthlys look there's a gorilla of a payment that needs to be delt with at the end of the term. That wouldn't be attractive to me anyway. Fair change, haha.

Why do you keep assuming that the car has to be bought out at the end? If you keep the car in decent shape then you bring the car in and walk away without touching any monkeys.

[Ven]

Originally posted by Mibz
Sorry for the ninja edit, but my point still stands. If people are putting themselves into these vehicles because of the shiny low payment without understanding what they're getting into then leasing isn't the problem.

Don't hate the game when the players have their heads up their asses.

Fair change, haha.

Why do you keep assuming that the car has to be bought out at the end? If you keep the car in decent shape then you bring the car in and walk away without touching any monkeys.

Ninja edit is cool haha. I can totally agree with that statement Mibz.

No the car doesn't need to be bought out. As above: Pay your deposit, pay your monthly rent, and turn it in at the end. Or deal with it the other way of paying out the remaining in lump sum or finance.

[benyl]

Originally posted by Ven


If your intention is to hand the car back who cares about the residual value, you paid your deposit and rent and the transaction is over. If you intend to sell the car, or have to sell the car, and the residual is high your owing amount could be higher than the actual market value of the car. Same goes if you finance the remaining value to try and own the car. You could be trying to sell or finance your $24000 lease obligation in a market that has that car pegged at $19,900.

Try consigning your car if you want to avoid dealing with the public.

You don't get it.

Residual value matters most when you are handing the car back. This is what changes the payment. Even more so than the interest rate. Leasing is all about residuals.

Who puts a deposit down on a lease? Deposit on Finance, yes. Lease, no.

If you finance a car, after 3 years, you are most likely upside down. If you are upside down on a lease, walk away. You can't do that with a finance.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by benyl
If you finance a car, after 3 years, you are most likely upside down. If you are upside down on a lease, walk away. You can't do that with a finance.

This.

Also, if someone rear ends you in winter, you are guaranteed to be upside down. Just give it back after insurance fixed it.

[Ven]

Originally posted by benyl


You don't get it.

Residual value matters most when you are handing the car back. This is what changes the payment. Even more so than the interest rate. Leasing is all about residuals.

Who puts a deposit down on a lease? Deposit on Finance, yes. Lease, no.

If you finance a car, after 3 years, you are most likely upside down. If you are upside down on a lease, walk away. You can't do that with a finance.

What don't I get?
Residuals is the point. You can have high payments and low residuals, or low payments and high residuals. Either way if you give the car back you're out that money. Or keep it and pay it out. You could have a car that's typically worth less than what you owe on the back end, or seemingly worth more than the buy out if you forget to factor in the higher lease payments you made on your low residual deal.

You are immediately upside down on any new car purchase, that's life. Turn the key and now it's a used car. Do you think you avoided depreciation costs by leasing? Your lease payment includes a depreciation factor.

Everyone typically pays a deposit on a lease. There are 2 kinds. A security deposit which pretty much everyone pays and is sometimes worked onto the deal so you don't feel it upfront. And there's a rate deposit. Open todays SUN and check out the leasing ads from dealers, small print on the bottom. In order to get the promo interest rate, term, and payment cost you'll need to submit a deposit on quite a few of them.

[Ven]

Originally posted by Xtrema


This.

Also, if someone rear ends you in winter, you are guaranteed to be upside down. Just give it back after insurance fixed it.

There is new car replacement insurance, and damage depreciation reimbursement which most people seem to know nothing about.

But yes, if leasing the car, who cares? Turn the thing over and it's someone else's problem now.

[Skyline_Addict]

Like everyone is saying, it's all about the residual, the interest rate and how well the car holds its value. As mentioned, there are different advantages and disadvantages that arise depending on how the numbers work themselves out.

For example, AFAIK Acuras typically have lower residuals on their cars. In my opinion, this favours people who do not wish to keep the car for the full lease term. Why?

Acuras hold their value very well, and 3-3.5 years into the lease, the market value is typically more than the residual. Depending on the model, you could be talking thousands of dollars. You then sell the car privately while simultaneously paying off the residual at Honda Canada Finance. You pocket the difference between the private sale price and what you paid the finance company.

Say you pocket $5000 and were paying $500 a month payments. Thats almost getting a year worth of payments back and having some nice money in your pocket to do what you choose.

I think that the type/brand of car you lease is more important than just looking at the iterest rate and residual.

[J-hop]

So banter aside do any of you that lease a vehicle modify it? I am assuming if they find out through service records etc they aren't going to be to happy about it so what are you guys doing in that case, just leaving it stock?

personally the only time I would lease would be if it was a work vehicle. As my dad used to say if you have to lease or finance a vehicle, you are looking outside your pay grade and need to re evaluate your career or your wants, which is something I firmly believe in. Out of highschool I knew so many people that wanted to be cool so they went out and leased STIs, srt-4s etc and ended up to their ears in car payments, renting shitty apartments and generally looking like huge tools to the outside world. Also consider the fact that a car you cant afford without leasing or financing, is probably going to be more expensive to maintain than your pay grade can afford(especially if you go out of the warranty period).

So I guess IMO, lease because it makes sense for your personality/lifestyle not because without a lease/financing you wouldn't be able to afford it.

[rage2]

I've had no problems with mods and leasing, as long as you return it back to stock. My SLK32, which was leased, had a full Renntech kit, with a custom pulley that put out 450hp. I put the car back to stock and had no problems. YMMV.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by J-hop
So banter aside do any of you that lease a vehicle modify it? I am assuming if they find out through service records etc they aren't going to be to happy about it so what are you guys doing in that case, just leaving it stock?

personally the only time I would lease would be if it was a work vehicle. As my dad used to say if you have to lease or finance a vehicle, you are looking outside your pay grade and need to re evaluate your career or your wants, which is something I firmly believe in. Out of highschool I knew so many people that wanted to be cool so they went out and leased STIs, srt-4s etc and ended up to their ears in car payments, renting shitty apartments and generally looking like huge tools to the outside world. Also consider the fact that a car you cant afford without leasing or financing, is probably going to be more expensive to maintain than your pay grade can afford(especially if you go out of the warranty period).

So I guess IMO, lease because it makes sense for your personality/lifestyle not because without a lease/financing you wouldn't be able to afford it.

In a lot of cases dealers have little to do with leases so they don't care if you mod the car or not. It's the leasing company that has the final say when you bring the car back.

[Chester]

Originally posted by Skyline_Addict
Like everyone is saying, it's all about the residual, the interest rate and how well the car holds its value. As mentioned, there are different advantages and disadvantages that arise depending on how the numbers work themselves out.

For example, AFAIK Acuras typically have lower residuals on their cars. In my opinion, this favours people who do not wish to keep the car for the full lease term. Why?

Acuras hold their value very well, and 3-3.5 years into the lease, the market value is typically more than the residual. Depending on the model, you could be talking thousands of dollars. You then sell the car privately while simultaneously paying off the residual at Honda Canada Finance. You pocket the difference between the private sale price and what you paid the finance company.

Say you pocket $5000 and were paying $500 a month payments. Thats almost getting a year worth of payments back and having some nice money in your pocket to do what you choose.

I think that the type/brand of car you lease is more important than just looking at the iterest rate and residual.


This is what i did with my 2009 wrx. 2 year lease, 0.9% interest, buyout after 2 years was ~$23800, sold the car after 1.5 years, pocketed $4000

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by nissanK
^Didn't need 2 vehicles, therefore we were wasting money on the second lease. ...

EDIT: We needed 2 cars to start, but we moved and 2 cars were not needed anymore.

That makes sense, but didn't you try Lease-Busters or the like first?

[rage2]

rage2's Guide to Leasing

A lot of beyonders have conflicting viewpoints on leasing, and most of the time, it's because many of us don't truly understand leasing. I'm going to try and put together the pros and cons of leasing, a look at the financials involved, and how you'll be using the vehicle. This should help you decide if buying cash, leasing, financing, or future value/balloon financing is the right option for you. If you educate yourself on the various ways to get into a new vehicle, you will save money in the long run.

If you're looking at a used car, stop reading now. We are only talking about purchasing/leasing of a new vehicle.

For this example, since I've done all the research before purchasing a 2011 Mercedes-Benz B200 Turbo, this will be the vehicle that I'll be using. The rates, residuals will be for Mercedes-Benz's August rates (since we're in August right now). It was actually cheaper in June at a 0.9% rate but we'll use a more typical 1.9% as an example. I won't be adding Tire tax, AC tax, PDI, Frieght or doc fees, since it varies from dealership to dealership, and is a small amount in the grand scheme of things. Let's get to 'er!

First, the car.

$32,400 - 2011 Mercedes-Benz B200 Turbo
$ 2,500 - Avantgarde Edition Package
$ 1,745 - GST
$36,645 - Total Price of Vehicle.

Scenario 1: Let's take a look purely from a financial perspective on paying to own the car outright.

1. Cash Purchase:

$36,645 - Final Price of ownership. Simple.

2. Finance, 48 months, 1.25% Interest

$37,584 - $783 x 48 payments, Final Price of Ownership.

3. Balloon Finance, 48 months, 1.25% Interest, $11,866 Residual Value.

$25,968 - $541 x 48 payments
$12,459 - Final Balloon payment incl. GST (cash)
$38,427 - Final Price of ownership.

4. Lease, 48 months, 1.90% Interest, $15,356 Residual Value. 18,000km per year.

$22,512 - $469 x 48 payments
$16,123 - Buyout price incl. GST (cash)
$38,635 - Final price of ownership.

So, from a financials perspective for owning the car, cash is king, that's pretty obvious. Let's see how much more expensive each option works out to:

2. Finance, 2.6% more expensive than cash.
3. Balloon Finance, 4.9% more expensive than cash.
4. Lease, 5.4% more expensive than cash.

Just as expected, it's cheaper to finance than to lease. That's a no brainer. Looking at the lease vs finance, the difference really isn't that much even if you plan on purchasing the vehicle outright. The lower payments allow you to keep more cash on hand, which can arguably be used to earn money, but that's an argument for another day.

Next, we'll look at some different scenarios.

Scenario 2: Let's look at it from if you were to sell the car when the warranty expires (at 4 years). For the true Residual value, I will look at current sale prices of 2007 (4 year old) B200 Turbos. This one sold on Beyond 2 months ago:

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/334191/fs-2007-mercedes-b200-turbo/

$13,000 Sale Price (assuming he got asking)
97,000km

Looking on auto trader, similar cars are asking $14-15k, so it's safe to assume that $13,000 is a good sale price at the end of 4 years. By 2015, the new B class would already be out, which could potentially drop it even more, so let's just use $13,000 as a guideline.

1. Cash Purchase and resell.

$36,645 - Final Price of ownership. Simple.
$13,000 - Sale Price
$23,645 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 4 years.

2. Finance and resell

$37,584 - $783 x 48 payments, Final Price of Ownership.
$13,000 - Sale Price
$24,584 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 4 years.

3. Balloon Finance and resell

$38,427 - Final Price of ownership.
$13,000 - Sale Price
$25,427 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 4 years.

4. Lease and walk away

$22,512 - $469 x 48 payments

In this scenario, because of the high residual "bet" set by Mercedes, leasing becomes the cheapest option over a 4 year period. If you get into an accident during the 4 years, the resale value is even lower, which would turn out much more in your favor on a lease. Here's how it breaks down:

1. 5.0% more expensive than lease
2. 9.2% more expensive than lease
3. 12.9% more expensive than lease

Scenario 3: What happens if the resale value is high? Let's assume that the resale value of the car is at $20,000 because it's got low km's and is in pristine condition (that and the math is easy haha). It's a legitimate #, there are a few asking in that price range. There are 2 leasing scenarios that we can play out, walk away, or buy out and re-sell.

1. Cash Purchase and resell.

$36,645 - Final Price of ownership. Simple.
$20,000 - Sale Price
$16,645 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 4 years.

2. Finance and resell

$37,584 - $783 x 48 payments, Final Price of Ownership.
$20,000 - Sale Price
$17,584 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 4 years.

3. Balloon Finance and resell

$38,427 - Final Price of ownership.
$20,000 - Sale Price
$18,427 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 4 years.

4. Lease and walk away

$22,512 - $469 x 48 payments

5. Lease, buy out, and resell (not counting cost of listings, etc)

$38,635 - Final price of ownership.
$20,000 - Sale Price
$18,635 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 4 years.

In this scenario, cash again is the cheapest, and here's how the %'s break down:

2. Finance, 5.6% more expensive than cash.
3. Balloon Finance, 10.7% more expensive than cash.
4. Lease and walk away, 35.2% more expensive than cash.
5. Lease, buy out, and resell, 11.9% more expensive than cash.

As you can see, it's all a game of residual values vs actual value after 4 years. Even in this worst case scenario, finance vs lease/buyout/resell is only a 6% difference.

Scenario 4: Let's say that 2 years into the car, you want to sell it. On autotrader, 2 year old B200 Turbos are asking $23,000 to $27,000 so let's just use the worst case scenario, and the vehicle sells for $24,000 and see what happens.

1. Cash Purchase and resell.

$36,645 - Final Price of ownership. Simple.
$24,000 - Sale Price
$12,645 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years.

2. Finance and resell

$18,792 - $783 x 24 payments, 2 years of payments.
$18,323 - Remaining buyout (estimated)
$24,000 - Sale Price
$13,115 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years.

3. Balloon Finance and resell

$12,984 - $541 x 24 payments, 2 years of payments.
$12,660 - Remaining buyout (estimated)
$12,459 - Final Balloon payment incl. GST (cash)
$24,000 - Sale Price
$14,103 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years.

4. Lease, buyout @ 2 years, sell vehicle. Lease termination varies, based on MB Financial buyout rate @ 2 years.

$11,256 - $469 x 24 payments
$26,506 - Buyout price at 2 years
$24,000 - Sale Price
$13,762 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years.

Breaking down the TCO over 2 years, we get:

2. Finance, 3.7% more expensive than cash.
3. Balloon Finance, 11.5% more expensive than cash.
4. Lease, 8.8% more expensive than cash.

Even the lease doesn't look that bad when terminating early, only 5.1% more expensive than a typical finance. So why does everyone bitch about early lease termination being expensive? Simple, let's look at how much money you have to contribute at the 2 year point when you decide to sell.

2. You get $5,677 back.
3. You pay $1,119.
4. You pay $2,506.

It's deceiving, because with a lease termination, while you pay the most out of pocket to get out, the TCO is in fact LESS than a Balloon finance. It all has to do with the "savings" from lower monthly payments. BTW - compared to a conventional finance, it's 5.1% more expensive, or a whopping $647. Lesson learned? Look at the Total Cost of Ownership, NOT how much $ out of pocket you're paying when terminating early!

Misc Lease Options

1. Let's take a look at the misc stuff on a lease. The first one is, should I go for a low mileage lease? In the B200's case, they have a 12k, 18k, and 24k option. The extra km penalty was 12 cents per km. With that being said:

$352 - Pricing difference over 48 months 12km --> 18km
$1057 - Pricing difference over 48 months 18km --> 24km

That works out to 5.8 cents per km, and 17.6 cents per km, respectively. This all depends on how much you'll be using your car, and what's makes more sense.

2. Another one is lease protection. Some dealers are offering $400 packages that allows you up to $2000 worth of damage, wear and tear, etc. This one is a good bet IMO, because a windshield usually costs more than $400, and in Calgary, it's pretty much a guarantee that you'll need a new windshield in 4 years time.

3. Deposits. Should I pay a deposit on a lease? Some leases allow balloon lease payments which in turn lower the interest rate. In effect, you're giving the lease company free money and charge you interest on it! Never ever put a deposit down on a lease. If the dealer is won't approve you without a down payment, that means you're not approved for such a high payment. If you're thinking of doing it to lower monthly payments, you're trying to get more car than you can afford. Walk away now. Even if you need that car to get laid, you're probably better off getting an escort that puts out.

I'll update this if I can think of more stuff, and I'll try to edit it so it's not such a wall of text lol.

[dimi]

Originally posted by rage2
I've had no problems with mods and leasing, as long as you return it back to stock. My SLK32, which was leased, had a full Renntech kit, with a custom pulley that put out 450hp. I put the car back to stock and had no problems. YMMV.

And that's why I probably will never buy a previously leased car, especially a sports car. When you know you'll be returning the car in 2-3 years, you just don't really care.

Common practice on leased 335s. Mod the shit out of them, some guys even had meth kits, then return after 2 years in stock condition. Couple that with the absurd 24,000km oil change interval. Would suck being that fool who buys the car next.

[dirtsniffer]

^ how do you protect yourself in that case? extend the warranty out the ass?

[Abeo]

Originally posted by rage2
rage2's Guide to Leasing

You should make that post a sticky somewhere

[clem24]

Also do consider cash flow. If you're looking for healthiest cash flow, it goes from bottom-up (#4 to #1). Obviously if you don't have cash, #1 is out of the equation (and most people don't). Leasing is the best option if you're trying to maximize cash flow (and keep in mind this is not just purely whether you can afford to do something or not - you might have better uses of your cash, keeping emergency money around, etc...).

[Redlyne_mr2]

Originally posted by Abeo


You should make that post a sticky somewhere

I can't believe this isn't common knowledge

Finance what appreciates, lease what depreciates.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by dirtsniffer
^ how do you protect yourself in that case? extend the warranty out the ass?

CPO or set up a good reserve fund for repairs.

That's why I did not want any 335i used, as much as I want a 335i vert. Or get one in auto so it would have less abuse.

[rage2]

Originally posted by dimi
And that's why I probably will never buy a previously leased car, especially a sports car. When you know you'll be returning the car in 2-3 years, you just don't really care.
From a mentality standpoint, you enjoy the car completely different. My leased SLK32, I drove it right to the 60,000km limit, attended tons of track days, modded it as much as I can, and had a blast. I didn't baby her at all, and she lived a tough life.

My CLK Black Series, paid cash for it, owned it for 1 year, and baby it when I drive it. Push it here and there, and racked up a whopping 4000km in 1 year.

If I leased the Black Series, I'd beat the shit outta her lol. Of course, the lease #'s for those sorta cars doesn't make sense. For a joke, I looked up the lease rates on the SLS, it's something like 10% interest with a 30% residual after 3 years haha.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by rage2

From a mentality standpoint, you enjoy the car completely different. :werd:

I babied my SLK. 4 years, 40,000kms. I feel like I screwed myself as I should have at least drove it up to 80,000kms to maximize the warranty period.

My GTI I use for work and I don't even care. I'm averaging 36,000kms a year on this car hahaha :rofl:

[rage2]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2
if I was trying to sell you a house for $400 000 and I told you that in 3 years it was going to be worth $100 000 would you rent it or buy it from me?
Totally missed that, but that's a great way of looking at it.

[KandabashiDevil]

Originally posted by rage2
Never ever put a deposit down on a lease. If you're thinking of doing it to lower monthly payments, you're trying to get more car than you can afford. Walk away now. Even if you need that car to get laid, you're probably better off getting an escort that puts out.

This is signature worthy. Humorous and truthful.

[Skyline_Addict]

Originally posted by KandabashiDevil


This is signature worthy. Humorous and truthful.

+1 on escorts who put out.

[clem24]

Originally posted by rage2
My CLK Black Series, paid cash for it, owned it for 1 year, and baby it when I drive it. Push it here and there

Oh I don't know.. Assuming you're in the only CLK BS in town, I saw/heard you floor it to a red light when I was crossing the street downtown. :D

(at least 2 months ago and I think you were turning onto 6th Ave westbound from 8th St. northbound).

[rage2]

Originally posted by clem24
Oh I don't know.. Assuming you're in the only CLK BS in town, I saw/heard you floor it to a red light when I was crossing the street downtown. :D

(at least 2 months ago and I think you were turning onto 6th Ave westbound from 8th St. northbound).
Sounds about right. 100% the water and oil was up to temp though!

btw- that's not pushing it haha. That car's not pushed until at least 160 lol.

[Skyline_Addict]

Originally posted by rage2

Totally missed that, but that's a great way of looking at it.

Good way of looking at it for sure, but the real answer comes from what the payments in each scenario are. Of course, in both these cases the payment amounts typically aren't substantially different. So the answer is obvious....

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Redlyne_mr2

Most people only keep their cars for 3-4 years, if I was trying to sell you a house for $400 000 and I told you that in 3 years it was going to be worth $100 000 would you rent it or buy it from me?

I would tell you there is no bubble, everything is fine, and the house will be worth $900,000 in 3 years

[leftwing]

Wow didn't mean to start a riot with this thread, but thanks for all the insightful banter. Rage, thanks for that breakdown + multiple scenarios, you should sticky that somewhere.

[MrSector9]

I am going to Hire Rage to look over my payment/lease info next time I am getting into a new car.

even with the banter ther eis alot of great info in this thread.

[max_boost]

Of course leasing is great, why do you think there are so many BMW's on the roads. Everyone can drive a bimmer. :bigpimp: :D

[Cos]

Not that any of this hasnt been said. I leased my first car. Wanted out (4 year lease... im an idiot) and got screwed. Financed my truck. Want out. Got screwed. I need to look into total cost of ownership more than anything.

Just a quick question for you guys, is there anything to eliminate right off the top of your head? Meaning if you want a 1/2 year car that is one to eliminate? Below/Above a certain dollar value?

I just did a quick GTI lease and those things after 2 years lose 50% of the value. That doesnt seem like a good deal to me.


**note this is comparing buying a 2/3 year old fun car over leasing a new car**

[benyl]

WTF? try asking the questions again.

[Cos]

Originally posted by benyl
WTF? try asking the questions again.

lol okay yeah I will.

[Mixalot27]

Sorry for the slight thread hijack. Rage's comment about lease returns and allowable damage on Mercedes made me curious about Honda's. I have a 5 year lease on a civic. I rubbed a pole with my front bumper at a drive through ATM. Basically scraped the paint off in two spots about the size of a nickel each. The rest of the car is pretty mint with low KM's, no door dings, no windshield cracks, etc. How picky is Honda? Do you think they would they charge me for it?

The residual is fairly low on it and I'm pretty sure I will buy it out and either keep it or sell it myself for a slight profit.

[rage2]

I've added a scenario 4, which is a real eye opener. This is the confusing issue of terminating early at 2 years (over 4 years), and why people dread doing so.

It's also very useful calculation for taking over someone else's lease, to see if it's a good deal or a rip off.


Scenario 4: Let's say that 2 years into the car, you want to sell it. On autotrader, 2 year old B200 Turbos are asking $23,000 to $27,000 so let's just use the worst case scenario, and the vehicle sells for $24,000 and see what happens.

1. Cash Purchase and resell.

$36,645 - Final Price of ownership. Simple.
$24,000 - Sale Price
$12,645 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years.

2. Finance and resell

$18,792 - $783 x 24 payments, 2 years of payments.
$18,323 - Remaining buyout (estimated)
$24,000 - Sale Price
$13,115 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years.

3. Balloon Finance and resell

$12,984 - $541 x 24 payments, 2 years of payments.
$12,660 - Remaining buyout (estimated)
$12,459 - Final Balloon payment incl. GST (cash)
$24,000 - Sale Price
$14,103 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years.

4. Lease, buyout @ 2 years, sell vehicle. Lease termination varies, based on MB Financial buyout rate @ 2 years.

$11,256 - $469 x 24 payments
$26,506 - Buyout price at 2 years
$24,000 - Sale Price
$13,762 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years.

Breaking down the TCO over 2 years, we get:

2. Finance, 3.7% more expensive than cash.
3. Balloon Finance, 11.5% more expensive than cash.
4. Lease, 8.8% more expensive than cash.

Even the lease doesn't look that bad when terminating early, only 5.1% more expensive than a typical finance. So why does everyone bitch about early lease termination being expensive? Simple, let's look at how much money you have to contribute at the 2 year point when you decide to sell.

2. You get $5,677 back.
3. You pay $1,119.
4. You pay $2,506.

It's deceiving, because with a lease termination, while you pay the most out of pocket to get out, the TCO is in fact LESS than a Balloon finance. It all has to do with the "savings" from lower monthly payments. BTW - compared to a conventional finance, it's 5.1% more expensive, or a whopping $647. Lesson learned? Look at the Total Cost of Ownership, NOT how much $ out of pocket you're paying when terminating early!

[Skyline_Addict]

very nice rage2.

[benyl]

Where are you getting your buyout values at 2 years?

Most leases require you to pay out all the remaining payments in order to terminate the lease. Meaning you have you pay the all of the interest for the 4 years. BMW leases are different and MB leases might be the same as BMW leases.

All other leasing companies make you pay the total lease obligation out first.

So it should look like this for non BMW / MB cars




4. Lease, buyout @ 2 years, sell vehicle. Lease termination varies, based on MB Financial buyout rate @ 2 years.

$11,256 - $469 x 24 payments
$27,379 - $11,256 - $469 x 24 payments + $16,123
$24,000 - Sale Price
$14,635 - Total Cost of Ownership, over 2 years



making it 16% higher than cash.

[rage2]

Originally posted by benyl
Where are you getting your buyout values at 2 years?

Most leases require you to pay out all the remaining payments in order to terminate the lease. Meaning you have you pay the all of the interest for the 4 years. BMW leases are different and MB leases might be the same as BMW leases.

All other leasing companies make you pay the total lease obligation out first.

So it should look like this for non BMW / MB cars

making it 16% higher than cash.
I got the 2 year payout rate from MBFS Canada. When I terminated my VW GTI Lease early, I definately was NOT paying all the interest on the remaining payments. There was a specific buyout value that was less than the remaining payments + residual buyout cost.

In your scenario with the lease, it would be 15.7% more expensive than cash, 12% ($1520) more than finance, and a out of pocket cost of $3379 at the 2 year mark. It's definately important to read the fine print on your lease documents to calculate TCO of breaking out early.

Thanks benyl.

[clem24]

Originally posted by Aleks
The fact that people lease so they can afford cars they wouldn't be able to finance is a whole different story.

Great example here... Remember the chick who's M5 was destroyed by the idiots.. er I mean riots?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/08/18/bc-vancouver-riot-damage-car.html

http://ca.autoblog.com/2011/08/19/bmw-m5-owner-left-with-bill-for-torched-car-after-vancouver-riot/

LOL Someone explain the story to me though.. She's out about $10k between what is owed and replacement value. She doesn't have $10k. So the solution is to take a month off work??

[benyl]

Guess she should have bought GAP insurance...

Although, if you can afford to lease an M5, $10K should be pocket change.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by clem24


LOL Someone explain the story to me though.. She's out about $10k between what is owed and replacement value. She doesn't have $10k. So the solution is to take a month off work??

Probably her lawyers suggestion. Will make the lawsuit more winnable.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by rage2

I got the 2 year payout rate from MBFS Canada. When I terminated my VW GTI Lease early, I definately was NOT paying all the interest on the remaining payments. There was a specific buyout value that was less than the remaining payments + residual buyout cost.

In your scenario with the lease, it would be 15.7% more expensive than cash, 12% ($1520) more than finance, and a out of pocket cost of $3379 at the 2 year mark. It's definately important to read the fine print on your lease documents to calculate TCO of breaking out early.

Thanks benyl.

OK, so VW lease is the same as BMW lease, where you don't have to pay out all the remaining payments + residual. Interesting.

[max_boost]

Originally posted by benyl
Guess she should have bought GAP insurance...

Although, if you can afford to lease an M5, $10K should be pocket change.

I've never asked my agent about gap insurance before. I don't think it would be that expensive??

[jdmXSI]

Most lease's have standard gap insurance for the term of the lease and just speaking from experiance Subaru, BMW and MINI have this built into the lease from the get go.

Rage, I think you missed one point for TCO on your 4th scenario and that is a lease transfer.
$11,256-$469 x 24 payments
$495-lease transfer fee (can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer)
$11,751-for a Total cost of ownership

Making it 9.3% less than a initial cash transaction


For example in 2009 i had leased a base STi for $458/mth with $4000 down. Last september i had someone take over my lease and payed the transfer fee of $495(i think?) plus gave me a check for $2500. My Total Cost of Ownership for the 16 months i had the car was $8828.

[rage2]

Originally posted by clem24
Great example here... Remember the chick who's M5 was destroyed by the idiots.. er I mean riots?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/08/18/bc-vancouver-riot-damage-car.html

http://ca.autoblog.com/2011/08/19/bmw-m5-owner-left-with-bill-for-torched-car-after-vancouver-riot/

LOL Someone explain the story to me though.. She's out about $10k between what is owed and replacement value. She doesn't have $10k. So the solution is to take a month off work??

Originally posted by benyl
Guess she should have bought GAP insurance...

Although, if you can afford to lease an M5, $10K should be pocket change.

Originally posted by max_boost
I've never asked my agent about gap insurance before. I don't think it would be that expensive??
Mercedes leases REQUIRE gap insurance. You have to present proof of gap insurance for the lease to start. It's like an extra $20 a year.

I'm surprised BMW didn't require it in her case. Either that or she was stupid and took it off.

[TomcoPDR]

Excellent write up Rage.

Can you do a write up explaining advantage for those who own small businesses (i.e. realtors, contractors)... lease payment stays constant vs. purchasing (30% of 30% for the following year, write off keeps depreicating)