When/If at all will Alberta get E85?

[Freebs]

A lot of the forums I am on, I am noticing a lot of people running E85 and it got me thinking about when if at all Canada or Alberta to be specific, will ever get this. I did a bit of Google searching but didn't find any solid answers so maybe some of my fellow Beyond members know more.

I would love to get it just so I could push the Evo to its power limits. As guys are making 400-415whp with the Evo X and the stock turbo and even the bigger turbos they are able to get CRAZY! fast spool up out of them with the benefit of turning the timing way up.

Anyway let me know if you know any more to add to this.

[Aerobat]

Gay, my 1950's airplane fuel system cant handle the ethanol!

[Projek01]

It doesnt make sense for companies to sell E85 here because I dont think the canadian goverment subsidizes corn crops for the production of ethanol. It doesnt make sense for anyone to sell it here because it costs quite a bit to produce and yields low energy (yes it has a high octane rating)

[dimi]

Well you could get a 55 gallon drum of E85, cheaper than race gas. Better yet E98. I'm pretty sure a shop in Calgary sold these.

I know I've said this before, but do you feel comfortable pushing 400-415whp on your tranny? Might be an expensive bill...

[Xtrema]

Is there study shows that E85 performs better than E10 or normal gas?

Everywhere I read that you should avoid ethanol like a plague unless it's not your daily driver.

I think local BMW dealerships have told many to avoid Husky/Mohawk's E10.

[rage2]

E85 has less energy than traditional pump gas. It does have much higher knock resistance, therefore you can run much higher boost/compression ratios without detonation. It's shitty for NA cars.

Fuel economy is brutal as well, since cruise AFR's is at a whopping 10:1 vs 14.7:1 for normal gasoline.

It's a poor fuel to use for street applications. It's not even that much cheaper, so overall cost is higher for E85 vs 91 octane in the US due to the reduced fuel economy. The only advantage is political, as it lessens US reliance on foreign oil.

As for E10 (Husky 94) on normal cars, most of the problems comes from the fact that it throws off O2 sensors, and the measured AFR is incorrect. Cars won't be able to compensate perfectly and you end up with rougher idles, lower power, high EGT's and all sorts of other minor symptoms. This is why the limit for pump fuel is 10% ethanol, cars are designed to work within this range.

Flex fuel vehicles that support Exx fuel have a Fuel Quality sensor that can measure the ethanol content in the fuel and compensate accordingly.

[Maxt]

I think its not been rolled out here also because of its poor cold start characteristics. Even in the warmer states, they knock it back to E70 or 75 for winter for cold start reasons. There are times here when you would have to plug in the vehicle all the time to get it to start. No leaving an E85 car in parking lot all day long at -20 even. The increased use of electricity to keep every car plugged cancels out any kind of green benefit.
As for the E10, I think it tends to have a higher affinity for moisture than pure gasoline, its probably holding a lot more water which makes cars run rough.. I have seen straight 91 make more power and produce less knock than the 94 E blend on the dyno.

[Freebs]

Originally posted by dimi
Well you could get a 55 gallon drum of E85, cheaper than race gas. Better yet E98. I'm pretty sure a shop in Calgary sold these.

I know I've said this before, but do you feel comfortable pushing 400-415whp on your tranny? Might be an expensive bill...
Oh yea I wouldn't think twice about pushing 400whp on the tranny. There are big leaps in tuning for the SST now and lots of people are pushing the 400-450whp levels now. It's the torque they are keeping somewhat low and normally I see these people putting out around 370wtq.


Originally posted by Xtrema
Is there study shows that E85 performs better than E10 or normal gas?

Everywhere I read that you should avoid ethanol like a plague unless it's not your daily driver.

I think local BMW dealerships have told many to avoid Husky/Mohawk's E10.
All the guys on the Evo forums are showing MUCH faster spool up times and between 50-60hp more over a 92/93 octane tune. But at a cost of terrible gas milage. But this issue is easy depending on how you are tuned. With a COBB AccessPort you can just switch from a E85 tune back to a normal gas tune within a few seconds. To run E85 though you need to change out the fuel pump/injectors (at least for the Evo X anyway).


Originally posted by rage2
E85 has less energy than traditional pump gas. It does have much higher knock resistance, therefore you can run much higher boost/compression ratios without detonation. It's shitty for NA cars.

Fuel economy is brutal as well, since cruise AFR's is at a whopping 10:1 vs 14.7:1 for normal gasoline.

It's a poor fuel to use for street applications. It's not even that much cheaper, so overall cost is higher for E85 vs 91 octane in the US due to the reduced fuel economy. The only advantage is political, as it lessens US reliance on foreign oil.

As for E10 (Husky 94) on normal cars, most of the problems comes from the fact that it throws off O2 sensors, and the measured AFR is incorrect. Cars won't be able to compensate perfectly and you end up with rougher idles, lower power, high EGT's and all sorts of other minor symptoms. This is why the limit for pump fuel is 10% ethanol, cars are designed to work within this range.

Flex fuel vehicles that support Exx fuel have a Fuel Quality sensor that can measure the ethanol content in the fuel and compensate accordingly.
I wouldn't say it's a poor fuel for street use, it would depend on the vehicle.
And you couldn't use this on just any car which is why it is causing 02 sensor issues. you either have to have a car built for it (flex fuel vehicles from GM) or in my case change out your fuel pump/injectors and disable the 02 sensor or just remove it as I have done anyway when I went to a test pipe.


Originally posted by Maxt
I think its not been rolled out here also because of its poor cold start characteristics. Even in the warmer states, they knock it back to E70 or 75 for winter for cold start reasons. There are times here when you would have to plug in the vehicle all the time to get it to start. No leaving an E85 car in parking lot all day long at -20 even. The increased use of electricity to keep every car plugged cancels out any kind of green benefit.
As for the E10, I think it tends to have a higher affinity for moisture than pure gasoline, its probably holding a lot more water which makes cars run rough.. I have seen straight 91 make more power and produce less knock than the 94 E blend on the dyno.
This I could see being a good reason for it not to come here. Didn't think about this haha I was to focused on the performance gain

[Darell_n]

All gas stations are up to 10% ethanol now for 87 octane.

[M.alex]

Hopefully never - screw ethanol.

[Abeo]

Its available in Ontario, but that's probably due to so much corn being grown there, multiple ethanol plants, and government grants for ethanol production. I don't see a fuel ethanol plant being built in AB/SK when they could build something O&G related and make more money :/

[Cooked Rice]

Originally posted by Aerobat
Gay, my 1950's airplane fuel system cant handle the ethanol!

Which is good! Range would be horrible on E85.

[Darell_n]

Sounds like the ethanol plant in Vegreville started construction so maybe E85 will be for sale in AB in a few years.

[badatusrnames]

Originally posted by Projek01
It doesnt make sense for companies to sell E85 here because I dont think the canadian goverment subsidizes corn crops for the production of ethanol. It doesnt make sense for anyone to sell it here because it costs quite a bit to produce and yields low energy (yes it has a high octane rating)

Octane rating isn't related to energy content...

[HO2S]

Originally posted by Freebs

I wouldn't say it's a poor fuel for street use, it would depend on the vehicle.
And you couldn't use this on just any car which is why it is causing 02 sensor issues. you either have to have a car built for it (flex fuel vehicles from GM) or in my case change out your fuel pump/injectors and disable the 02 sensor or just remove it as I have done anyway when I went to a test pipe.


Its not a o2 sensor problem, its a fuel trim problem. E85 has less energy than gas. The pcm is programmed for gas, so when you put e85 in the pcm is trying to keep afr to what it is programmed for. Since its lower energy the pcm has to bump up injection pulse to keep up. Once fuel trim hits +25% it will throw a lean code.
Flex fuel is a industry standard not just a gm thing. Gm is just the only one that is having problems with there alcohol sensors.

You also have to keep in mind your evo has plastic fuel lines, your going to have to replace them also. Imo its a total wast of money when you dont have the supporting mods. Just turning up the boost is not a safe way of making power.

[Darell_n]

Imo its a total wast of money when you dont have the supporting mods. Just turning up the boost is not a safe way of making power. [/B][/QUOTE]

No, but being able to throw away your intercooler and adding more timing is the benefit with his fuel.

[sr20s14zenki]

You need to upgrade most fuel pumps and injectors to run e85 as well (excluding gm vehicles that are set up for flex fuel). Injectors and pumps need to be sized 42% bigger than you would size for a gas application. So instead of lets say having an inline 6 making 600 hp on 750 cc injectors on gasoline, you would need 1100 cc injectors. Also, it would increase demand on the fuel pump, so where a nice deutschwerks 340 lph fuel pump would do you well, not so good now.

e85 is cool, but things need to be alot bigger to support it....so in the end, gasoline is a much more efficient per volume fuel....imo more beneficial to run a meth kit or something instead.

heres an interesting article.

I have a magazine somewhere around with a breakdown on e85 requirements

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

[Maxx Mazda]

Just run 100 Leaded AVGAS. :thumbsup:

Works great for me! (My car is built and tuned for leaded gasoline.)

Seriously though, Husky 94 should be good enough.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by Darell_n
Imo its a total wast of money when you dont have the supporting mods. Just turning up the boost is not a safe way of making power.

No, but being able to throw away your intercooler and adding more timing is the benefit with his fuel. [/B][/QUOTE]

E85 will not cool the intake charge enough. It will detonate like a bastard if you cut out the intercooler. To run a decent boost pressure with no intercooler you will need methanol injection. that is not practical for street use.
A stock pcm will not advance the ignition timing enough to take advantage of the extra octane. If you have a engine that is built for some good power with good electronics you will make more with e85.

[Darell_n]

Well, anyone with a serious setup will rejoice when E85 is available. E85 vs race fuel is a no-brainer. Not much benefit otherwise.

[J-hop]

I was rearding a good editors note in super street a little while ago and it went something like this "few people actually put thought into their builds anymore and do the research, everyone just wants to run as much boost as possible for bragging rights"

I don't know, if you have a stock Evo the last thing you should be doing is trying to get a hold of e85 just so you can push that turbo and your fuel system to their absolute max. Just my 2 cents....

[Darell_n]

Originally posted by J-hop
I was rearding a good editors note in super street a little while ago and it went something like this "few people actually put thought into their builds anymore and do the research, everyone just wants to run as much boost as possible for bragging rights"

I don't know, if you have a stock Evo the last thing you should be doing is trying to get a hold of e85 just so you can push that turbo and your fuel system to their absolute max. Just my 2 cents....

I completely agree. 4 cylinder cars are for economy and should be left for commuting.

[Ron@Revolution]

Originally posted by Maxt
I think its not been rolled out here also because of its poor cold start characteristics. Even in the warmer states, they knock it back to E70 or 75 for winter for cold start reasons. There are times here when you would have to plug in the vehicle all the time to get it to start. No leaving an E85 car in parking lot all day long at -20 even. The increased use of electricity to keep every car plugged cancels out any kind of green benefit.
As for the E10, I think it tends to have a higher affinity for moisture than pure gasoline, its probably holding a lot more water which makes cars run rough.. I have seen straight 91 make more power and produce less knock than the 94 E blend on the dyno.

Been running it for years now and it would be hard to get the car to start unless you went down to a E50 blend in the winter. For power production you can't comapre anything under say C20-C23 or VP Import as far as race gas. Great stuff just need a real big fuel system and a big tank for street driving.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by Darell_n


I completely agree. 4 cylinder cars are for economy and should be left for commuting.
Hey now, thats not fair. the domestic v8 world is just as bad for hacked up shit. For every civic with flames on it there is a some trailer trash with his small block with the air box lid fliped upside down because he thinks it will flow more air.

[89s1]

Originally posted by Darell_n


I completely agree. 4 cylinder cars are for economy and should be left for commuting.


But trucks are for racing :rolleyes:

[Darell_n]

Originally posted by 89s1



But trucks are for racing :rolleyes:

In Alberta and Texas, yes. :D

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Darell_n

I completely agree. 4 cylinder cars are for economy and should be left for commuting.

And pickup trucks should be left for hauling garbage to the dump and adding a couple of inches to a small penis.;)

[npham]

Originally posted by J-hop

I don't know, if you have a stock Evo the last thing you should be doing is trying to get a hold of e85 just so you can push that turbo and your fuel system to their absolute max. Just my 2 cents....

Most people who are interested in this stuff won't be running stock anything. Especially any Evo's thinking about it. Not to difficult to get into the 350+ range on E85 with an with a stock block and turbo, but upgraded pump, injectors, lines, etc. Lots of them are in the 400hp range, which is pretty damn impressive for a few fuel upgrades and a tune.

[Cos]

.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by npham


Most people who are interested in this stuff won't be running stock anything. Especially any Evo's thinking about it. Not to difficult to get into the 350+ range on E85 with an with a stock block and turbo, but upgraded pump, injectors, lines, etc. Lots of them are in the 400hp range, which is pretty damn impressive for a few fuel upgrades and a tune.


Sounds like the OP's Evo is stock??

Like the quote says few people really put thought into their builds, 400+Hp on the stock turbo?? I haven't seen a compressor map for the evos turbo but I would be very surprised if that is within its efficiency range. You essentially create a super heater out of your turbo when you push it to/past it's efficiency limit, therefore you end up having to run stuff like e85 as a band aid fix to prevent detonation.

[zarge]

I had a 2007 avalanche a ways back and it takes E85. It says it right on the gas cap. Pretty sure all the chevy GMT 900 platform vehicles run stock E85. If it takes it, it has a yellow gas cap like a diesel does...

[Rat Fink]

.

[g-m]

My Z is willing, built, and ready for e85. Bring it on!

[Darell_n]

Originally posted by Rat Fink
Ford has flex fuel vehicles too, it's not just a GM thing.

How much cheaper is E85 vs gasoline?....because you will burn through a tank of E85 roughly 30% quicker than gasoline. Is it 30% cheaper?? If not, then it can kindly go fuck itself. :love:

Government subsidies typically keep the $/mile the same for both fuels.