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fast95pony
01-26-2004, 02:14 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/01/24/shaftteen040124

This sounds really fishy to me . ...

Solicitor General's spokesman David Bray said "the door opened unexpectedly or prematurely, we're not sure, and he stepped into the shaft and fell in."

But according to a witness....

A boy who was in a cell next to Kyle Young told Edmonton reporters that two guards grabbed the suspect, who had been complaining about being hungry, by the back of the neck and removed him from the cell.

He said the guards then pushed Young against the wall.

"All we hear is 'bang, bang' and then all of a sudden, 'bang,' like a really loud bang," the 16-year-old boy said.

"Once that big bang went, the metal in my cell vibrated and that's when I stood up. That was pretty loud. If it could make the walls shake in the cell, somebody's hit pretty hard," he said.

Police spokesman Sgt. Chris Hayden wouldn't comment on the alleged scuffle.

ninjak84
01-26-2004, 03:05 PM
I remember this story.
There's an investigation going on into what happened, but it's being carried out by the fucking cops themselves. Am I the only one that predicts no officers will be charged? :rolleyes:

/////AMG
01-26-2004, 03:11 PM
:werd: Kinda sad to see this kid 'die', but obviously this investigation isn't fair.

4G63Power
01-26-2004, 03:15 PM
The total truth will never be told

sputnik
01-26-2004, 03:35 PM
doesnt matter... the kid would have probably just been a burden on society for his entire life... [/devils advocate]

Blue Devil 2
01-26-2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by sputnik
doesnt matter... the kid would have probably just been a burden on society for his entire life... [/devils advocate]

You don't know that though.

B17a
01-26-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by sputnik
doesnt matter... the kid would have probably just been a burden on society for his entire life... [/devils advocate]

Jeez man, that's harsh, even being devil's advocate. He looked like just some skinny kid, probably got in shit for being just that, a stupid kid doing stupid ass kid stuff (that we've all done). Doesn't mean his life would have been useless from that point on. I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

redec
01-26-2004, 05:12 PM
that's such bullshit...honestly, who here has ever stepped into an elevator without first looking to see where they're stepping?...like wtf?....he notices the doors open, but he doesn't notice the big black gaping hole on the other side of them?....they actually expect people to believe this shit? fucking retarded.

B17a
01-26-2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by redec
that's such bullshit...honestly, who here has ever stepped into an elevator without first looking to see where they're stepping?...like wtf?....he notices the doors open, but he doesn't notice the big black gaping hole on the other side of them?....they actually expect people to believe this shit? fucking retarded.

Don't be so sure, I actually was on the C-train once, and the doors on the wrong side opened at a stop, and some guy walked out without looking and fell right out of the train onto the road! Quite funny at the time.:D

403Gemini
01-26-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by redec
that's such bullshit...honestly, who here has ever stepped into an elevator without first looking to see where they're stepping?...like wtf?....he notices the doors open, but he doesn't notice the big black gaping hole on the other side of them?....they actually expect people to believe this shit? fucking retarded.

its happened before. Hundreds of times.

and i agree with sputnik. usually if your a juvenille you just needa do a shit load of community service. youd hafta do somethin REALLY bad not your usual


stupid kid doing stupid ass kid stuff (that we've all done).

angierideswitme
01-26-2004, 06:38 PM
you do one bad thing and you get comunity service, then next time you get caught you get charged, no matter what.

redec
01-26-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by B17a


Don't be so sure, I actually was on the C-train once, and the doors on the wrong side opened at a stop, and some guy walked out without looking and fell right out of the train onto the road! Quite funny at the time.:D

wow...that's unreal...people are stupid I guess :P

FiveFreshFish
01-26-2004, 09:02 PM
The guards are completely to blame for this. How can two trained guards not subdue a shackled and handcuffed teen? One good punch to the solar plexus would drop the kid and he'd think twice about resisting. No need to push him down an open elevator shaft. :thumbsdow

If the kid bolted for the open shaft himself, then he gets a nomination for the '04 Darwin Awards.

Khyron
01-27-2004, 02:13 AM
How many elevators have YOU seen that open onto an empty shaft? That's in the fucking movies - in real life that's one of the biggest safety failures a building can have. And the courthouse just happened to have it happen....

Khyron

TrevorK
01-27-2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by B17a


Jeez man, that's harsh, even being devil's advocate. He looked like just some skinny kid, probably got in shit for being just that, a stupid kid doing stupid ass kid stuff (that we've all done). Doesn't mean his life would have been useless from that point on. I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

He's already been in jail for Assault with a Weapon a couple times and was convicted of "Sexual Touching" (Whatever that means exactly).

A day or two before he attacked a female guard and had to be shot with a Taser to quiet down.

So yes, the guards had a right to treat him "rough". What most likely happened is he started fighting them, and things got a little too far and was pushed through the doors by accident.

Personally, I think the guards did their jobs. I might get flamed, but I think they protected themselves well.

sputnik
01-27-2004, 12:54 PM
darwin has been busy these days

Blue Devil 2
01-27-2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by TrevorK

Personally, I think the guards did their jobs. I might get flamed, but I think they protected themselves well.

He was shackled and in handcuffs, how hard could it be for the guards to protect themselves?

B17a
01-27-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by TrevorK


He's already been in jail for Assault with a Weapon a couple times and was convicted of "Sexual Touching" (Whatever that means exactly).

A day or two before he attacked a female guard and had to be shot with a Taser to quiet down.

So yes, the guards had a right to treat him "rough". What most likely happened is he started fighting them, and things got a little too far and was pushed through the doors by accident.

Personally, I think the guards did their jobs. I might get flamed, but I think they protected themselves well.

Sounds like Rodney King Part 2! Although if he did attack them they should be able to put him in place. But one has to wonder how much fighting a skinny shackled 16 year old can cause?

Talies R
01-27-2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by B17a


Sounds like Rodney King Part 2! Although if he did attack them they should be able to put him in place. But one has to wonder how much fighting a skinny shackled 16 year old can cause?

Exactly.

TrevorK can you post some more of your interesting thoughts on this issue?

TrevorK
01-27-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Blue Devil 2


He was shackled and in handcuffs, how hard could it be for the guards to protect themselves?

Maybe he charged at them running? They moved, he flew down the shaft? There are still ways to attack being shackled, it's not 100% safe.

Did anyone catch the Edm. Journal article - where they interviewed two of his friends who described him as troubled?

Talies R
01-27-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by TrevorK


Did anyone catch the Edm. Journal article - where they interviewed two of his friends who described him as troubled?

I didn't catch that article myself, but what are you getting at? Ok.. he was troubled and....

lam-boy
01-27-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by TrevorK


Maybe he charged at them running? They moved, he flew down the shaft? There are still ways to attack being shackled, it's not 100% safe.

Did anyone catch the Edm. Journal article - where they interviewed two of his friends who described him as troubled?

just because your troubled doesn't mean you don't deserve a chance to turn your life around.

TrevorK
01-27-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Talies R


I didn't catch that article myself, but what are you getting at? Ok.. he was troubled and....

He was troubled, has attacked guards before, convicted of multiply crimes, and you are telling me that the officers had used excessive force?

Please.

TrevorK
01-27-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by lam-boy


just because your troubled doesn't mean you don't deserve a chance to turn your life around.

I didn't say he didn't deserve a second chance (Although, I think he's already had more than that).

I am providing support evidence that he didn't just get shoved down the elevator by the guards. Obviously he had instigated it.

Khyron
01-27-2004, 01:39 PM
If he got beat up a bit fine, but the fact that there was a shaft to be tossed down in the first place is the real question I think.

One guard probably forced open the doors, thinking a car would be there and the other tossed him in - only there was no car. That's my evil guess for the hour. :D

Khyron

TrevorK
01-27-2004, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Khyron
If he got beat up a bit fine, but the fact that there was a shaft to be tossed down in the first place is the real question I think.

One guard probably forced open the doors, thinking a car would be there and the other tossed him in - only there was no car. That's my evil guess for the hour. :D

Khyron

I just can't see how guards (Who I assume work there daily) would force the door open hoping the car is there.

I'd rather suspect it was that he either was pushed through the doors, or ran through them.

SunshineGirl
01-27-2004, 01:52 PM
I think it was accidental....sometimes elevators break down and do funny stuff....like the car not coming up or down but the doors opening....the kid and guards were probably preoccupied with their little scuffle and the guards probably accidentaly shoved him through the doors without looking and he fell...I don't think anyone would want to purposly kill a kid who just gets charged for having a weapon....I'm sure the guards deal witha lot worse why would they choose to kill this kid?

sputnik
01-27-2004, 02:14 PM
i think this whole thing has been media driven... and it was just the kid who kicked down the doors... then fell on the final kick... elevator doors arent that thick... most of the thickness you see is actually the elevator car doors

has anyone heard of pending investigations about this?

Khyron
01-27-2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by TrevorK


I just can't see how guards (Who I assume work there daily) would force the door open hoping the car is there.

I'd rather suspect it was that he either was pushed through the doors, or ran through them.

I didn't mean force with a crowbar - but do guards have keys to override elevators, or to open doors? I have no idea - I'm just thinking that if I was an elevator maker in this day and age, there has to be overrides and priority calling. But maybe not.

I just can't imagine standing waiting for an elevator and it opens to a big gaping shaft. Has anyone here actually had that happen to them?

EDIT: Now, if they were kicked down that's something else. But the guy was handcuffed, I can't see guards just letting some little punk kick down metal doors. Maybe he charged into or was thrown up against the door and it broke? That's more likely that the open shaft thing.

Khyron

Kona9
01-27-2004, 02:56 PM
I understand your theory Khyron, and it's very valid due to the fact that we don't know what really happened. With shackles on, you don't have very much room to give a powerful enough kick with out kicking your other leg out. A very close friend of mine is an elevator technician. I just got off the phone with him as I was that curious after reading this thread. He sais that regardless of anything....absolutely anything....there will NEVER be a time that elevator doors would open without a car being there first on any elevator anywhere on planet earth. I have physically myself opened elevator doors from the inside of the elevator cab while it was moving. (drunken fun with friends) My friends personal opinion that goes along with his vast knowledge of elevator operations, believes there was a scuffle and the kid may have been thrown into the closed doors in means of detaining him while an attack had taken place. After all we do have knowledge of him having that sort of history. I don't believe the guards would have known the doors were going to collapse, break and bend, as easy as they did, and purposely push him down the shaft. That would mean the guards would have to be in on it together, therefore making the whole situation pre-meditated.
I call the whole thing a scuffle, that turned tragic. Whether or not excessive force was used or not. I honestly believe the same thing could have happened if the same situation occured in front of floor to ceiling windows on whatever floor of any building. Scuffle, leads to forceful detainment attempts, to a broken window, to someone falling out. Lots of skinny people can whoop some serious ass. We don't know his strength. Just because he is 16 and skinny, doesn't make him weak and retarded. This also doesn't make the guards in question guilty of murder either.

My 2 cents.

SunshineGirl
01-27-2004, 04:26 PM
My friends dad is a fire fighter and he said more often than not it is pretty difficult to just kick open an elevator door...usually they have to cut it open or pry with a crow bar....unless the kid was super strong and had mighty legs there is no way he could have opened the doors....as for the guards they could have but who is stupid enough to open the doors without first knowing that an elevator car is there?

403Gemini
01-27-2004, 05:12 PM
he was a sexual offender, IMO they deserve to be executed. but hey im the one thats for capital punishment *hides from flames*

they dont just murder the victum, they forever scar that person, and the people close to them. most females who have been raped refuse to be touched sexually for years afterwards... sometimes forever.

would you be happy if that was your wife/girlfriend? :thumbsdow

Kona9
01-27-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by 403Gemini
he was a sexual offender, IMO they deserve to be executed. but hey im the one thats for capital punishment *hides from flames*

they dont just murder the victum, they forever scar that person, and the people close to them. most females who have been raped refuse to be touched sexually for years afterwards... sometimes forever.

would you be happy if that was your wife/girlfriend? :thumbsdow
Dood this thread is about the incident itself, not what sexual assault does to people or your views on capital punishment.:rolleyes: :banghead:

FiveFreshFish
01-27-2004, 05:35 PM
Elevator doors open sideways so it's almost impossible to kick them in and it's difficult to jimmy them open. Doors must have been open for maintenance with guarded with a token barricade.

hjr
01-27-2004, 06:31 PM
Jesus told me he fell.

Super_Geo
01-27-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by TrevorK
He was troubled, has attacked guards before, convicted of multiply crimes...

It's a shame to see this upstanding pillar of our society gone. I'm sure the community will miss him, and his contributions, greatly.

ninspeed
01-27-2004, 06:52 PM
i might be wrong... but are the motors or what ever it is that open the doors on an elevator on the actual car itself???? ill try howthingswork.com
EDIT:
The car doors have a clutch mechanism that unlocks the outer doors at each floor and pulls them open. In this way, the outer doors will only open if there is a car at that floor (or if they are forced open). This keeps the outer doors from opening up into an empty elevator shaft.

Kona9
01-27-2004, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by ninspeed
i might be wrong... but are the motors or what ever it is that open the doors on an elevator on the actual car itself???? ill try howthingswork.com
EDIT:
The car doors have a clutch mechanism that unlocks the outer doors at each floor and pulls them open. In this way, the outer doors will only open if there is a car at that floor (or if they are forced open). This keeps the outer doors from opening up into an empty elevator shaft.
Thanks for looking that up. As mentioned in my previous post regarding a close friend who happens to make a living installing, wiring, and building elevators, wasn't lying to me when I previously wrote --- regardless of anything....absolutely anything....there will NEVER be a time that elevator doors would open without a car being there first on any elevator anywhere on planet earth."--- It is frickin amazing how the media has us all on this belief that what ever they put on the news or in the papers is what we should go by. Maybe the guards did use excessive force in a detaining style scuffle, but I honestly do not think that they knew if they just kicked and punched the kid the right way that the elevator doors would dent and break open so he could fall to his death.

stockEK
01-28-2004, 09:44 AM
There were reports from 2 sources, an elevator tech., and another investigator which outlined "unusual and significant"
damage to the elevator doors.

(Those words were repeated by the TV reporters - the people themselves were not on camera)

I am 99% convinced the guards were roughing him up against the door, and it opened and he went down.

Yes, some of these kids have done bad things, they are probably mouthy and every thing else, but a 120lb kid in shackes and cuffs is NOT any kind of threat to TWO large gaurds.

Super_Geo
01-28-2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by stockEK
Yes, some of these kids have done bad things, they are probably mouthy and every thing else, but a 120lb kid in shackes and cuffs is NOT any kind of threat to TWO large gaurds.

Maybe he didn't deserve to get thrown down an elevator shaft, but he damn well deserved to get roughed around. There's no way that the guard deliberately threw him down the shaft. What would they have to gain?



TrevorK
A day or two before he attacked a female guard and had to be shot with a Taser to quiet down

He has a history of attacking guards, and I place the value of the well being of a guard one hell of a lot higher then shit bags like this one. If he was compliant, followed directions and didn't attack guards ( :rolleyes: ), he wouldn't be dead.

I hope the guards get off with no punishments whatsoever. Maybe a few weeks off to recover from what happened.



B17a
Sounds like Rodney King Part 2

Rodeny King got exactly what he deserved. I don't see why society has this huge swollen heart for criminals who fuck up repeatedly and endanger the lives of many other innocent people while they're resisting arrest. Maybe if Rodney King ploughed through a few white children during his high speed prusuit the views would be different.

B17a
01-28-2004, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Super_Geo





Rodeny King got exactly what he deserved. I don't see why society has this huge swollen heart for criminals who fuck up repeatedly and endanger the lives of many other innocent people while they're resisting arrest. Maybe if Rodney King ploughed through a few white children during his high speed prusuit the views would be different.
That's funny, I mentioned Rodney King because I just watched American History X the other day again, and Ed Norton has that scene where he rants on about how King got what he had coming considering he fought back and *could* have killed a lot of people driving the way he did.

Super_Geo
01-28-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by B17a

That's funny, I mentioned Rodney King because I just watched American History X the other day again, and Ed Norton has that scene where he rants on about how King got what he had coming considering he fought back and *could* have killed a lot of people driving the way he did.

First of all, Rodney King didn't fight back. He instigated the attack. I don't see what the Ed Norton scene has to do with this though.

There's a lot of people who side with good ol' Rodney, and I really can't see their reasoning behind it. Here's a convicted felon who's been through the system many times leading the police through a high speed chase and then attacking the officers when he's finally caught, and we're supposed to feel sorry for him cause he got beaten for 19 seconds? Boo fucking hoo.

What did Rodney get from this (aside from a riot in LA causing billions in damages and leaving 55 dead)? $3.8 million. I don't know how many 7/11s he would've had to rob to get the same amount, but hell it's quite a lot. One hell of a lot more than I think he deserved.

Here's his arrest record before and after the having before the incident:

Before


July 27, 1987: According to a complaint filed by his wife, King beat her while she was sleeping, then dragged her outside the house and beat her again. King was charged with battery and pleaded "no contest." He was placed on probation and ordered to obtain counseling. He never got the counseling.

November 3, 1989: King, brandishing a tire iron, ordered a convenience store clerk to empty the cash register. The clerk grabbed the tire iron, causing King to fall backwards and knock over a pie rack. King swung the rack at the clerk and fled the store with $200. King was arrested and charged with assault with a deadly weapon, second-degree robbery, and intent to commit great bodily injury. In a plea agreement, King pleaded guilty to the robbery charge and the other charges were dropped. He was sentenced to two years in prison, but was paroled on December 27, 1990.


And after


May 11, 1991: King was pulled over for having an excessively tinted windshield. Although King was driving without a license and his car registration had expired, King was not charged.

May 28, 1991: King picked up a transvestite prostitute in Hollywood who happened to be under surveillance by LAPD officers. King and the prostitute were observed in an alley engaging in sexual activity. When the prostitute spotted the officers, King sped away, nearly hitting one of them. King later explained that he thought the vice officers were robbers trying to kill him. No charges were filed.

June 26, 1992: King's second wife reported to police that King had hit her and she feared for her life. King was handcuffed and taken to a police station, but his wife then decided against pressing charges.

July 16, 1992: King was arrested at 1:40 A.M. for driving while intoxicated. No charges were filed.

August 21, 1993: King crashed into a wall near a downtown Los Angeles nightclub. He had a blood alcohol level of 0.19. King was charged with violating his parole and sent for sixty day to an alcohol treatment center. He was also convicted on the DUI charge and ordered to perform twenty days of community service.

May 21, 1995: King was arrested for DUI while on a trip to Pennsylvania. King failed field sobriety tests, but refused to submit to a blood test. He was tried and acquitted.

July 14, 1995: King got into an argument with his wife while he was driving, pulled off the freeway and ordered her out of the car. When she started to get out, King sped off, leaving her on the highway with a bruised arm. King was charged with assault with a deadly weapon (his car), reckless driving, spousal abuse, and hit-and-run. King was tried on all four charges, but found guilty only of hit-and-run driving.

March 3, 1999: King allegedly injured the sixteen-year-old girl that he had fathered out of wedlock when he was seventeen, as well as the girl's mother. King was arrested for injuring the woman, the girl, and for vandalizing property. King claimed that the incident was simply "a family misunderstanding."

September 29, 2001: King was arrested for indecent exposure and use of the hallucinogenic drug PCP.


Oh, and let's not forget his most recent contribution to society:



Rodney King was hospitalized with a broken pelvis after he lost control of his SUV while weaving through traffic at 100 mph and crashed into a house, police said.

Police said they suspect that King was intoxicated

He was convicted of spouse abuse in 1999 in San Bernardino County and was sentenced to 90 days in jail and four years probation.

King pleaded no contest to three counts of being under the influence of PCP and a count of indecent exposure in October 2001. A judge gave King a year in a drug treatment center even though a prosecutor argued King should spend a year in county jail.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84218,00.html

B17a
01-28-2004, 10:38 AM
No No, I'm not saying anything about Rodney being a saint or anything, just your previous statement sounds a lot like Ed Norton's scene, that's all.:D

Super_Geo
01-28-2004, 10:44 AM
Haha, I re-read that post and yeah, it really does. American History X was a great movie, Norton kicks ass ;)

TrevorK
01-28-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Kona9

Thanks for looking that up. As mentioned in my previous post regarding a close friend who happens to make a living installing, wiring, and building elevators, wasn't lying to me when I previously wrote --- regardless of anything....absolutely anything....there will NEVER be a time that elevator doors would open without a car being there first on any elevator anywhere on planet earth."--- It is frickin amazing how the media has us all on this belief that what ever they put on the news or in the papers is what we should go by. Maybe the guards did use excessive force in a detaining style scuffle, but I honestly do not think that they knew if they just kicked and punched the kid the right way that the elevator doors would dent and break open so he could fall to his death.

Never? Sounds like buddy needs to find a new line of work.

Early last year at St. Paul's Hospital a nurse's aide was portering a patient from one area of the hospital to the other. She stopped at the elevator she needed, waited 'til the doors opened and proceeded to back the patient in the wheelchair into the elevator. Everything seemed normal but as tradegy would have it, the elevator car was not there! The nurse's aide, frantically trying to save herself from the fall, scampered forward and inadvertently dragged the poor patient into the elevator shaft with her. The elevator car was only one floor below limiting the nurse's aide's injuries. The elderly and unfortunate patient on the other hand was seriously hurt and died a week later in that same hospital where he suffered his fatal injuries



And for those that think this is a freak accident:
http://www.quchronicle.com/news/2002/10/31/CampusNews/Teenager.Injured.After.Fall.Down.Elevator.Shaft-306489.shtml
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/bronx/nyc-elev1123,0,3395200.story?coll=nyc-manheadlines-bronx

Khyron
01-28-2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Super_Geo
I don't see why society has this huge swollen heart for criminals who fuck up repeatedly and endanger the lives of many other innocent people while they're resisting arrest. Maybe if Rodney King ploughed through a few white children during his high speed prusuit the views would be different.

Of course Rodney deserved his ass kicking. The problem is it's not up to the cops to make that decision. Cause next time it will be a non-threatening person that the cops beat up. Then maybe some brown guy who was just speeding will get beat up by 5 cops - and all the cops have to say is "he fought back".

I certainly don't want minimum wage security guards wielding the power to decide who to beat and who not to.

It's like the death penalty. I would love to see Bernardo and the other "famous" killers eat a bullet. The problem is then other people who are not as deserving would get it - cases that are grey instead of black and white.

Khyron

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 12:23 PM
Sorta like a Toyota supposidly never breaks down? Everything malfunctions from time to time. safteys perhaps didnt hold if they did indeed throw him up against the door, anything *shrugs* nobody will really know, but indeed lil fucks like this dont deserve to get off. So what happens 10 years down the road if he did live? puts in a beer belly, weights 190, and then starts raping women? how much more weight does he hafta gain before hes a threat? Fuck my friends 130 lbs and can probably kick most of your asses (Granted he took martial arts training and i m pretty sure this juveinille delinquient didnt heh)

Weight has no issue. Its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog. If your handcuffed, you can still easily kill somebody. EASILY.

TrevorK
01-28-2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Khyron


Of course Rodney deserved his ass kicking. The problem is it's not up to the cops to make that decision. Cause next time it will be a non-threatening person that the cops beat up. Then maybe some brown guy who was just speeding will get beat up by 5 cops - and all the cops have to say is "he fought back".

I certainly don't want minimum wage security guards wielding the power to decide who to beat and who not to.

It's like the death penalty. I would love to see Bernardo and the other "famous" killers eat a bullet. The problem is then other people who are not as deserving would get it - cases that are grey instead of black and white.

Khyron

Because of the cops not having the ability to make that decision, they are disrespected by the true criminals because they know that nothing can be done to them no matter what they do (in terms of assaulting an officer, running away, etc...).

It's a decision society has to make - do you trust the police to enforce the law/protect themselves according to their training or do you trust people to respect the police and their decisions?

Kona9
01-28-2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by 403Gemini
So what happens 10 years down the road if he did live? puts in a beer belly, weights 190, and then starts raping women? how much more weight does he hafta gain before hes a threat? Fuck my friends 130 lbs and can probably kick most of your asses (Granted he took martial arts training and i m pretty sure this juveinille delinquient didnt heh)

HARSH abso-frickin-lutlely harsh Gemini!!!!!!! Is this the side of your brain reacting again like it did whenyou got stuck in traffic when Brett Harts dad died? I mean really Wayne, c'mon!!!!
So fuckin what if he got a beer belly in the future and weighs 190 does that mean he was supposed to die because that may have happened? I don't support a thing the kid did that was wrong. As we all know there is a solution to a problem. Killing him because he might do something bad in the future is NOT the solution. Are you a problem solver ....or a problem causer? If so I would like to let you know that I might get a head injury in the future that causes me do do bad things to people, so maybe you could hook up your 130lb friend to come kill me by a severe ass kicking. It just doesn't seem right. Correct me if I'm wrong!!!!!!

Super_Geo
01-28-2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Khyron


Of course Rodney deserved his ass kicking. The problem is it's not up to the cops to make that decision. Cause next time it will be a non-threatening person that the cops beat up. Then maybe some brown guy who was just speeding will get beat up by 5 cops - and all the cops have to say is "he fought back".

But it is up to the cops to make that decision. I don't care who you are, if you're going to charge at a cop, or make any threatening actions toward him, you deserve whatever the hell it is you get-- be it a broken limb or a bullet. I'm not always the biggest fans of cops, but I respect the fact that they put their lives on the line to ensure the safety of the rest of society. Hell, they don't even get paid that much to do it. So when criminals endanger the lives of cops, I think we should give cops quite a bit of latitude in dealing with them. Should they beat the shit out of a brown guy who got pulled over for speeding? Of course not, but if the brown guy charged at the cops or attacked him, then beat away.

Super_Geo
01-28-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Kona9
So fuckin what if he got a beer belly in the future and weighs 190 does that mean he was supposed to die because that may have happened?

In the end, the kid's death was a direct result of his own actions. No one intentionally threw him down an elevator shaft and no one planned on killing him. Whatever happened to him was a direct result of him not cooperating and attacking guards. If he just did as he was told and didn't cause a fuss, he'd still be breathing today.

Khyron
01-28-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Super_Geo


But it is up to the cops to make that decision. I don't care who you are, if you're going to charge at a cop, or make any threatening actions toward him, you deserve whatever the hell it is you get-- be it a broken limb or a bullet. I'm not always the biggest fans of cops, but I respect the fact that they put their lives on the line to ensure the safety of the rest of society. Hell, they don't even get paid that much to do it. So when criminals endanger the lives of cops, I think we should give cops quite a bit of latitude in dealing with them. Should they beat the shit out of a brown guy who got pulled over for speeding? Of course not, but if the brown guy charged at the cops or attacked him, then beat away.

Ok, I think we agree to a point. That African guy that stabbed the cop a few weeks back and then the cop shot him. THAT I agree with. Hell, even if the cop didn't get stabbed but was slashed at, I'm all for shooting that guy.

But lets suppose it's a drunk guy, swinging a few punches half-heartedly but really not a threat. Should the cop shoot him?

Or a 14 year old kid with a golf club? Sure, it's possible he might kill someone, but cops should be trained well enough to take him down without resorting to beating him to death.

BTW - did you actually see the Rodney video? I mean, if a guy attacks a cop and the cop punches him a few times to get him under control - fine, but Rodney was on the ground pretty much unconcious with like 10 cops hitting him with clubs. That's cowardly bullshit.

It's the same with non-cops. If I shove you in a bar, that's technically assault, but it certainly doesn't mean you get to slit my throat.

Khyron

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 01:37 PM
the ONLY criminals i actually have a heart for are the ones who steal food or money to survive. i feel bad that thats what they hafta resort too. and no kona, i dont believe he shoulda died. but again kona, what if he went after your girlfriend? would you be happy? or would you be filled with a rage and want to kill him yourself? just think outside the box and put yourself in the position of the victims.

and yes, if you got a head injury and could potentially going off and snapping and killing somebody, you should be detained from society. i am fuckin sick of seeing shit "oh its because he has a chemical imbalance" or "oh hes schizo" as a reason for people to get off from breaking the law.

and there is no comparison for a criminal not listening to police who has a sexual assault history vs my comments about the hart's funeral. this is completely different.

take a criminal psychology course, criminal sociology course, and hang around with cops where you hear the shit that goes on EVERY day, then you can actually relate to dealing with criminals man. just cause its on the news, doesnt mean unbelieveable shit doesnt go down every single day here.

one more thing, how would you like it, your doing a job where you put YOUR life on the line every day, knowing that one day you might not come back home, to help others and you get treated with the up most DISRESPECT. My friends (the cop ones heh) cant go into restaurants when they are in their uniforms. the only ones they can go into is ones where they can see their food being made. how would that make you feel?

Kona9
01-28-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Super_Geo


In the end, the kid's death was a direct result of his own actions. No one intentionally threw him down an elevator shaft and no one planned on killing him. Whatever happened to him was a direct result of him not cooperating and attacking guards. If he just did as he was told and didn't cause a fuss, he'd still be breathing today.
EXACTLY:thumbsup:

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 01:39 PM
Lets just say, Karma is real :)

Khyron
01-28-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by 403Gemini
Lets just say, Karma is real :)

And you have a bunch building up yourself. :P

Khyron

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Khyron


And you have a bunch building up yourself. :P

Khyron

how so? worst thing i do is speed every now and again.

so sue me i hate criminals boo fuckin hoo :D

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 01:49 PM
oh n i just wanted to add one thing

i dont believe the cop has any right to beat up anybody, UNLESS the person attacks the cop first. the cop is there to keep the peace, not be a mean street fighter with protection from the law :)

Kona9
01-28-2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by 403Gemini


how so? worst thing i do is speed every now and again.

so sue me i hate criminals boo fuckin hoo :D
So if you die in a car accident because you were speeding, you deserved it? I don't think so munchkin!!! There would have been something you could have done to avoid it. Just like the Kid could have used help to avoid himself from becoming 190lbs with a beer belly and touching girlies where he wasn't invited to. (as you quoted intelligently)

Super_Geo
01-28-2004, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Khyron
[B]
Ok, I think we agree to a point. That African guy that stabbed the cop a few weeks back and then the cop shot him. THAT I agree with. Hell, even if the cop didn't get stabbed but was slashed at, I'm all for shooting that guy.

But lets suppose it's a drunk guy, swinging a few punches half-heartedly but really not a threat. Should the cop shoot him?

Or a 14 year old kid with a golf club? Sure, it's possible he might kill someone, but cops should be trained well enough to take him down without resorting to beating him to death.


Cops are trained on how to respond to these situations. Of course a 240lb cop that's built like a brick shithouse doesn't need to put a bullet in the head of someone who's drunk enough to not know the seriousness of swinging at cops, or a 14 year old kid whose emotions are off the charts and is wildly swinging a club around. But those arn't the situations that any normal cop would be using a lot of force for anyway.

When a full grown man attacks a cop, that's a whole new ball game.



BTW - did you actually see the Rodney video? I mean, if a guy attacks a cop and the cop punches him a few times to get him under control - fine, but Rodney was on the ground pretty much unconcious with like 10 cops hitting him with clubs. That's cowardly bullshit.

I saw the video, and maybe it's just the versions of the video that I saw, but the very first thing you see are the cops beating Rodney. It doesn't give any precursor to what happened. For all we know, Rodney may have been strangling a cop before his buddies could come to his rescue. And of course there's the need for moderation and criminals have rights too and so on and so on, but still I think that everything Rodney got that day he did to himself, because if he pulled over when the cops flagged him and didn't put up a fuss, there's no way in hell that he would've gotten the shit beaten out of him. The cops shouldn't have been as excessive as they were, that much I don't think many people disagree with, but Rodney took his chances and got what he deserved.

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Kona9

So if you die in a car accident because you were speeding, you deserved it? I don't think so munchkin!!! There would have been something you could have done to avoid it. Just like the Kid could have used help to avoid himself from becoming 190lbs with a beer belly and touching girlies where he wasn't invited to. (as you quoted intelligently)

nah if i got in an accidnet i would hope i would only hurt myself, not others for my stupidity.

who i really feel sorry for tho, is the family of the boy. i couldnt imagine loosing a son, even if he was a lil bastard.

most people cant be changed either. rapists and drunk drivers are the highest repeat offenders, even after re-hab and therapy. thing i think they should get rid of is: young offenders act. if he was still alive, by the time he hit 18 his entire record would be wipped clean. thats :bullshit: in my opinion.

but still, my condolensces to his family

EDIT: and khyron, its tough to tell sometimes if a person is either high or drunk. drunk yea sure easy to arrest, em, but my friend had to fight a guy on coccaine. it took 4 of them to bring him down. the man thought he was god pretty much.

i guess im saying, there is no excuse for excessive force unless the cops life or others lives are in danger (ie: a weapon is pulled) if its a blunt object, then the cop i feel has full rights to take out his batton, if the guy pulls a knife and lunges at a cop or slashes at him, the cop has full rights to shoot him. but thats all my opinion of course

Khyron
01-28-2004, 04:29 PM
i guess im saying, there is no excuse for excessive force unless the cops life or others lives are in danger (ie: a weapon is pulled) if its a blunt object, then the cop i feel has full rights to take out his batton, if the guy pulls a knife and lunges at a cop or slashes at him, the cop has full rights to shoot him. but thats all my opinion of course

Actually, thats pretty much how it works. There's a sliding chart for cops that shows what force they are allowed to use in a given situation (from baton to spray to gun). And I totally agree with it.


the ONLY criminals i actually have a heart for are the ones who steal food or money to survive. i feel bad that thats what they hafta resort too. and no kona, i dont believe he shoulda died. but again kona, what if he went after your girlfriend? would you be happy? or would you be filled with a rage and want to kill him yourself? just think outside the box and put yourself in the position of the victims.

BTW - when I said Karma, I mean where you'll see that all crime isn't so blatantly obvious. Maybe you'll punch someone in a bar after they grope your woman, but the guy dies and you'll be charged with manslaughter. Or maybe you'll be speeding a bit too quick and you'll kill a kid. Accident perhaps, but you'd still be a criminal. Or maybe someone will die, or you'll lose your job and you'll get mad and trash a few cars. Rage can happen to anyone - doesn't mean you need to be executed.

One of the best examples is rape. If you told the story of a 40 year old man driving around in a black van, stealing little 12 year olds and raping them, most people (myself included) would be ok with executing him. People would clamor for raised punishments for rapists, etc.

But again, what about the grey areas? What if the girl you had sex with (a little drunk, but totally concious and totally into it) changed her mind the next day and said that you raped her. Would you still be clamoring for raised punishments in the 2nd case?

There's a reason why impartial 3rd parties make the decisions about these things.

Khyron

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 04:34 PM
true khyron, very true

Kona9
01-28-2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by 403Gemini
i guess im saying, there is no excuse for excessive force unless the cops life or others lives are in danger (ie: a weapon is pulled) if its a blunt object, then the cop i feel has full rights to take out his batton, if the guy pulls a knife and lunges at a cop or slashes at him, the cop has full rights to shoot him. but thats all my opinion of course

Ok help me out here. Keep in mind I understand that was YOUR opinion. So you are a cop and I am a 190lb guy with a beer belly. :rofl: You are approaching me to detain me. I then reach in my pocket and pull out an object faster than you can say "saturns rock" do you think your life is worth standing there like Bill Nuy the Science guy to figure out if the object is blunt or sharp, knife, or gun, and still have enough time to decide which of your weapons will best take care of the situation? I know if the role was reversed I would have my gun out ready to pull the trigger like a trained cop is supposed to. In response to your very first sentence in quote, I would say a cop must assume their life is always in danger when apprehending a suspect, and respond defensively to any abrupt actions the suspect may shell out.

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 04:40 PM
kona: lol thats great ;) saturns rock, 190 beer belly heh... okay but yea


if i told a guy to freeze, or dont move, and then the fucker goes into his pocket my gun would be pointed at him before he has his hand outta his pocket. i dont give 2 fucks if hes givin himself a quick jerk session before i take him to jail ;)

thing is tho there are SO many pissy people in this city that if they did that (shoved hand in their pocket) and then a cop pulled their gun out and all that person was gettin was say, chapstick, they would try to do everything they could to sue the cop. you know its true too.

im just sayin cops dont have enough respect. especially with all those "HARD CORES" out there now ;)

Kona9
01-28-2004, 04:43 PM
now that Khyron has posted in between my response to Gemini, I would like too add that I totally agree with what he said, as well as what I wrote in response. Every situation is different, and has it's own proper way to be dealt with. And as mentioned, thinking outside the box most definately can change thoughts and views if certain circumstances change. (what if the bad guy went after my girlfriend) very understandable. I was just spaeking on a police view, as my father was (recently retired) a constable.

403Gemini
01-28-2004, 04:46 PM
:thumbsup: to your dad :)

how long was he a cop for?

Kona9
01-28-2004, 06:06 PM
firefighter 5 years cop 20 all calgary

hjr
01-28-2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Super_Geo


Rodeny King got exactly what he deserved. I don't see why society has this huge swollen heart for criminals who fuck up repeatedly and endanger the lives of many other innocent people while they're resisting arrest. Maybe if Rodney King ploughed through a few white children during his high speed prusuit the views would be different. im dont totally agree with you, while i think he deserved a beating, it was pretty harsh and he was so stoned he probably didnt feel it. they should taken him back to the station to sober then rough him up.

"Maybe if Rodney King ploughed through a few white children during his high speed prusuit the views would be different." that last part sounds exactly like American History X (you dont really wanna sound like that do you?)

Super_Geo
01-28-2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by hjr
"Maybe if Rodney King ploughed through a few white children during his high speed prusuit the views would be different." that last part sounds exactly like American History X (you dont really wanna sound like that do you?)

What's wrong with sounding "like that" when the statement is perfectly valid?

hjr
01-28-2004, 09:07 PM
Maybe if Rodney King ploughed through a few white children during his high speed prusuit the views would be different

its a movie about racists. you want to sound like a racist? thats coo i guess. While it was a racial issue (kinda), it was people blabbering like you who propogated it.
what difference would it make if they were white brown black or yellow kids, if he hit them then its bad. its not an us vs. them issue... that was my point.

Super_Geo
01-28-2004, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by hjr
Maybe if Rodney King ploughed through a few white children during his high speed prusuit the views would be different

its a movie about racists. you want to sound like a racist? thats coo i guess. While it was a racial issue (kinda), it was people blabbering like you who propogated it.
what difference would it make if they were white brown black or yellow kids, if he hit them then its bad. its not an us vs. them issue... that was my point.

I'm not white, so it really wouldn't make a difference to me if kid was white, brown or black. However, individual members of society identify most with what happens to their own race. It "hits closest to home," so to speak, when things happen to people of the same color. Is that how things would be in an ideal world? No, of course not. But, fact of the matter is, that's how things work. It's basic human nature.

I specifically said "white" children because that is what would cause the biggest uproar in America. Don't get me wrong, if he had killed any kids that day it would get a pretty big reaction out of people, but the biggest reaction would without question result from someone white. It's pretty basic psychology. It's easier to be empathetic to a news story or theorhetical situation when the victim is someone that's identifiable to yourself.

So yes, my wording and intent was deliberate and I meant it as such. Is what I'm 'blabbering' about 'coo' with you? :rolleyes:

I_miss_kyle
05-28-2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by fast95pony
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/01/24/shaftteen040124

This sounds really fishy to me . ...

Solicitor General's spokesman David Bray said "the door opened unexpectedly or prematurely, we're not sure, and he stepped into the shaft and fell in."

But according to a witness....

A boy who was in a cell next to Kyle Young told Edmonton reporters that two guards grabbed the suspect, who had been complaining about being hungry, by the back of the neck and removed him from the cell.

He said the guards then pushed Young against the wall.

"All we hear is 'bang, bang' and then all of a sudden, 'bang,' like a really loud bang," the 16-year-old boy said.

"Once that big bang went, the metal in my cell vibrated and that's when I stood up. That was pretty loud. If it could make the walls shake in the cell, somebody's hit pretty hard," he said.

Police spokesman Sgt. Chris Hayden wouldn't comment on the alleged scuffle.

There really is something fishy about the entire story... I was a good friend of Kyle Young, and for the last couple of months, I have been reading all the reports I can find on him, and what happened, and in every report there is something different.... I just want justice for his death! What more could I ask for? My fucking friend is dead, and all any of us want is justice for what happened. To know how he died, why he died! I miss him soo much and I think of him every day. I think most ppl are right tho, about never finding out what really happened, becuz it was an edmonton police officers who were the last ones to see him, and they are the only ones who know for sure what happened... Edmonton is just trying to protect their cops, and instead of thinking about what is right, they're minds are clouded by their own fuckin greed, I HATE THEM AND I WANT THEM ALL TO GO TO HELL! I want justice for his death, and I know that everyone else does too!

TrevorK
05-28-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by I_miss_kyle


There really is something fishy about the entire story... I was a good friend of Kyle Young, and for the last couple of months, I have been reading all the reports I can find on him, and what happened, and in every report there is something different.... I just want justice for his death! What more could I ask for? My fucking friend is dead, and all any of us want is justice for what happened. To know how he died, why he died! I miss him soo much and I think of him every day. I think most ppl are right tho, about never finding out what really happened, becuz it was an edmonton police officers who were the last ones to see him, and they are the only ones who know for sure what happened... Edmonton is just trying to protect their cops, and instead of thinking about what is right, they're minds are clouded by their own fuckin greed, I HATE THEM AND I WANT THEM ALL TO GO TO HELL! I want justice for his death, and I know that everyone else does too!

So you're saying that you can guarentee Kyle did nothing to contribute to this incident?

403Gemini
05-28-2004, 03:05 PM
holy thread resurrection!

anyways, "I_MISS_KYLE" if he was such an upstanding member of society, why was he locked up?

Toma
05-28-2004, 03:44 PM
So you guys have never heard of the infamous "screaming elevator" eh?? Those of us old enough to remember sure do...

LOL.

Khyron
05-28-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Toma
So you guys have never heard of the infamous "screaming elevator" eh?? Those of us old enough to remember sure do...

LOL.

I'm pretty old, at least to know about phone book beatings and elevator rides (or is that the same thing?)

Khyron

403Gemini
05-29-2004, 10:08 AM
phone book beatings are a classic ;)

alpha
05-29-2004, 10:35 AM
depending on the circumstances this could be possible, if the kid was facing away from the doors and the guards were getting rough with him, then your first reaction when you hear the doors open is to get away from the abuse, which would be into the open elevator.

on a side-note: I work with some guys that have been in jail and they had said a few times that if a guard wants to beat on you for being a disturbance, etc. they take you to the elevator, cuz there is no cameras in there, and the elevator has been known to stop "unexpededly" and thing can happen.

Super_Geo
05-29-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by alpha
on a side-note: I work with some guys that have been in jail and they had said a few times that if a guard wants to beat on you for being a disturbance, etc. they take you to the elevator, cuz there is no cameras in there, and the elevator has been known to stop "unexpededly" and thing can happen.

Good, maybe then they'll think twice about making disturbances.

Skylinelover
06-13-2004, 09:10 PM
So why was the elevator stuck at teh bottom and didin't come up? and how couldn't 2 older guards stop a 16 year old teen that was in hadcuffs?

finboy
06-13-2004, 09:13 PM
dude, not this thread again.

in before teh lock