Church?

[Isaiah]

Who attends regularly? Not interested in this turning this into another Kool-Aid vs. science debate; just wondering what the stats are for the beyond.ca demographic.

[rob the knob]

is this for christians only?

[bigbadboss101]

Church service weekly but sometimes miss one here or there.
Other events like socials, sports, charity, volunteering associated with Church groups on top of that.

[Cos]

Used to go a ton, every week plus helped run a few youth events (mainly around cars, the HS kids, and skateboarding) at Dalhousie Community Church. Over the years I have had an increasing problem with, initially, church and then religion as a whole.

Only have gone once at Christmas in the last 5 years. I will say I miss the people though. A lot of the people are good.

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by rob the knob
is this for christians only?
No, it's for anybody and any place of worship.

[Canmorite]

I've never been to a Sunday service, only a communion (i think?) for a Greek family. Was young and don't remember much.

I've thought about going to that centre st church close by one Sunday just to see what it's like.

[ddduke]

I went weekly almost my entire life but the last 2 years I've only been attending on easter/christmas and a few times in between that.

[Mamma_Mia]

.

[kvg]

Not my thing. I believe in horsepower and torque:D

[rob the knob]

my friend makes jokes like thiss all the time about his religion



http://cofatf.org/

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Ive never gone.

[kvg]

Originally posted by rob the knob
my friend makes jokes like thiss all the time about his religion





Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with faith, but it's not for me. I can't prove I'm right and neither can they, so were cool. I just hate it when I'm right and your wrong arguments break out, just respect the others point of view.:dunno:

[schocker]

Used to go regularly when I lived at home, but now it is kind of whenever. Wasn't really involved with anything there was it was an older church so generally all old people.

[frozenrice]

I used to be quite involved. Over the years though, I got increasingly frustrated and pissed with people that claim to be "Christians". I find a majority of them to be insincere, judgemental and full of themselves. I'm not saying all of them are like that, but the ones that I typically encounter are.

[speedog]

Haven't been regularly for about 40 years now - biggest problem I see is that people can't seem to see the difference between being spiritual and being religious. A religion is a sense of community and for some people, they need that as a part of being spiritual. For others, they are able to spiritual without having the need to celebrate it in a communal setting.

I don't hate upon those that feel the need to be a part of a religious community on a regular basis - that's their choice, but why do some of those that are involved in a religion feel the need to hate or convert those that are just spiritual?

[Rat Fink]

.

[e31]

Never, but I went to a funeral recently and found out that you get the stink-eye if you don't eat their jesus-crackers.

[ICEBERG]

Last time i went to church was about 8 years ago. It was for one of our Romanian friends baby Baptism. It was a Orthodox Church here in Calgary. The Priest was one of the biggest Dicks i ever met.

He was Preaching to everyone in the Church and suddenly he says:

" If my daughter was dating a Muslim guy, God forbid i would kill them both"

Now i am a muslim, and out of courtesy and respect i go to a Baptism to hear this Clown. My wife had to hold me down to not kick the $hit out of the asshole.

Anyways i reported the so called clown priest and i think he got in some trouble, and since than i never been to a church.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by kvg
Don't get me wrong, I have no problems with faith, but it's not for me. I can't prove I'm right and neither can they, so were cool. I just hate it when I'm right and your wrong arguments break out, just respect the others point of view.:dunno:

The person with the claim of a self contradictory entity is the one with the burden of proof. If you open your hand and show me an empty palm and say you have an ipod in your hand that is everywhere and no where, I do not have to prove this is not true. If you get an empty box in the mail after paying for a pair of shoes, you don't have to prove that there isn't any shoes in the box. The shoe seller cannot win the case by saying that the shoes may exist in the box in some other realm of reality.
By your logic, you cannot prove that a square circle doesn't exist.

On the question of the thread, I stopped going to church when I began to think for myself.

[kvg]

I was being diplomatic:)

[thager]

proud atheist here.

[msommers]

I used to go every week. Biggest reason I stopped going was because we had an excellent pastor and he decided to move to Texas. Ever since then, the church has struggled to find someone has good. I've also gotten older and been able to draw my own conclusions about church. That's not to saw I'm not a Christian anymore but able to ask questions and form opinions about it instead of blindly listening to what someone says. I miss the community though, a lot of good honest people. But like anywhere, there are always bad apples.

Every Easter and Christmas I go. Part of me thinks it is guilt but part of me finds it important as well. Plus it means a lot to my Mom. I've actually thought about trying a different church and going back more frequently.

[revelations]

I used to go for years - and I still believe very much in Christ - but the church dogma here has completely turned me off (used to go to a few excellent churches in Vancouver).

Good example - "turn the other cheek" taken literally is completely the opposite meaning to us as it is to the people in eastern culture.

[Guillermo]

I used to go as a little kid, but stopped believing in the concept of god during my first genetics course in high school. Buddhism really appeals to me and I could see myself becoming more involved in that one day.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[masoncgy]

I haven't gone to church in years. My family was not religious at all, so we never took part in any church or faith or anything of that nature.

I got tied up with some evangelicals when I was a lost & troubled 16 year old kid. To be perfectly honest, I felt more comfortable around this family than my own... they just seemed so much more down to earth, friendly and made me feel like a part of their family.

Got pretty immersed in their born-again ways. The problem was the fact I took it all so personally that I began a mission to convert everyone around me to go with my new found ways. I strained a lot of relationships, ended up with some pretty bizarre views and simply became a monster.

As a got a little older I started to get more skeptical about the existence of God and walked away from my faith completely.

[rx7boi]

lol@replies

like moths to a flame, doesn't matter what OP says thread is about, you'll still find people who want to put in their 2 cents.

[Cos]

Originally posted by rx7boi
lol@replies

like moths to a flame, doesn't matter what OP says thread is about, you'll still find people who want to put in their 2 cents.

:dunno:

Who is arguing religion here? we are just stating our past experiences. Mine doesnt fit into the yes/no category so well and it sure doesnt seem like other peoples dont fit either.

[Tomaz]

I was baptized into the Church of England when I was 14. That was the first and last time I have been to church. My family never goes.

[Hakkola]

I've only gone a couple times this year, I used to go every other weekend or at least once a month with family. Most of my family goes every Sunday or they'll watch a service on tv.


Originally posted by Canmorite

I've thought about going to that centre st church close by one Sunday just to see what it's like.

This is the church I go to when I do go.

[jdmXSI]

I dont think that I have been inside a church for atleast ten years. That's not to say I'm not spiritual as I do believe that there is a greater conscience but I failed to see how any one religion was right.

[Dilmah]

Originally posted by rx7boi
lol@replies

like moths to a flame, doesn't matter what OP says thread is about, you'll still find people who want to put in their 2 cents.

We are allowed to comment on posts still aren't we? Or do people still think that religion is one you stay away from. Just checking...
I did go to church when I was a kid, then I realized how stupid it was and how much of a waste of time it is believing in something that just doesn't exist.

If you talk to god you're praying, if god talks to you you're Schizophrenic.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I stopped going when I started to realize the perfectly inverse relationship between religious stuff, miracles, etc. and the progression of science/fact. I'm a see it to believe it kind of person. I believe in a higher power, but I'm not sure what yet lol. Obviously it can't be proven either way.

I go once on Christmas eve for my Mom, that's it though. And we leave early, haha.

[Maybelater]

Born and baptized as a Roman Catholic but haven't been to chruch in years, last time was probably a wedding.

[ixlr8]

First off, duly note who came in this thread and threw the first stone. If Lexy can come in here, ignore the OP, and strut around like the intellectual superior, surely a rebuttal is kosher.


Originally posted by Modelexis
The person with the claim of a self contradictory entity is the one with the burden of proof.
By your logic, you cannot prove that a square circle doesn't exist.


Lexy, Lexy, Lexy...

Here you are a sentient being whom through the process of billions of years of chance, circumstance, and self organizing systems clawing their way out of nothingness, can somehow manage to have the audacity to take issues with self contradictory entities when he himself is a self contradictory entity.

You're a talking monkey that came from nothing. If you are possible, if self organizing systems can manage to forge whatever the fuck this is, out of chaos, then the flying spaghetti monster ain't got nothing on you, you paradoxical primate.

People get far too complacent about the complete and utter absurdity of existence itself.

God is absurd, absofuckinglutely, but no more absurd than you, and probably even less so.


P.S. Any circle you encounter is closer to being a square than it is to being a circle.

Kisses.

[Isaiah]

^:rofl:

[revelations]

Originally posted by ixlr8
You're a talking monkey that came from nothing. If you are possible, if self organizing systems can manage to forge whatever the fuck this is, out of chaos, then the flying spaghetti monster ain't got nothing on you, you paradoxical primate.


Sig material right here.

[Melinda]

Never. I went a few times to various places of worship when I was figuring things out for myself, but despite believing in fate and having an "everything happens for a reason" mentality, I'm not a believer in God and my husband is athiest, so there's no reason for us to go.

[Penis McNickels]

Originally posted by Canmorite
I've thought about going to that centre st church close by one Sunday just to see what it's like.

Atheist here. I was going to the Centre Street Church for over 6 months, because of the wife.

Make sure Pastor Henry is the one telling stories on the day you go. The other pastors aren't very interesting and less charismatic than Henry. Pastor Henry always has some good jokes to keep you awake; although, he steals most of them from the internet

They also have a top notch production team.

The Sunday school is quite good, but I didn't like them telling my daughter that everything in the bible is real (originally I was assured that this wasn't the case for her age group, instead lessons on Please and Thank You and being nice) that's one of the reasons (the other being r/atheism at reddit got me a worked up) that I finally told my wife that she was welcome to go by herself but I would not go with her.

She doesn't go any more.

All typos due to typing ipad...

[flipstah]

I go to church regularly but there are times where I miss it.

[gqmw]

Originally posted by Penis McNickels

Make sure Pastor Henry is the one telling stories on the day you go. The other pastors aren't very interesting and less charismatic than Henry. Pastor Henry always has some good jokes to keep you awake; although, he steals most of them from the internet


Pastor Henry is good. I recently heard the brown pastor they have (don't know his name) but he's really good as well. But yeah music team is great and I haven't been to sunday school, but heard good things.

[Kobe]

When I was a kid it was "sometimes" between the age of 14-17 it was "Christmas"

Since then I have stopped believing and have not been in years...

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by ixlr8
People get far too complacent about the complete and utter absurdity of existence itself.

God is absurd, absofuckinglutely, but no more absurd than you, and probably even less so.

I usually let you get away with your baseless ramblings of condescension but this one I will take a stand on.
Why don't you give me the self contradictory nature of human life, why don't you tell me how a one in a billion chance replication is a self contradiction.

I don't think you understand the concept.

If humans are made of both fire and water, then I would give you the nod, but what you're saying here is just garbage talk with no logic to back it up.

You are confusing an almost infinitely small probability case with a case that simply cannot stand on it's own conceptual thought and is shattered by self contradiction.

Not to mention, this invisible self contradictory entity was created by the mind of men (see monkeys) and is usually portrayed in the form of man (see monkeys)

You will not get out of this one without an explanation.

[Feruk]

Was baptised catholic, never been to church since. I used to consider myself an agnostic until I read The God Delusion. Been strictly athiest since then once I realized I don't need to believe in mythology or some quasi-afterlife to make myself feel good about life.

[Boat]

Used to go every week with my family. When I got a job around 15-16, and starting working Sundays my parents stopped making me go. On my own, never, except for Christmas.

[Pacman]

I voted "every week".

I'm with the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and live my life as a Pastafarian.

RAmen!

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by Feruk
Was baptised catholic, never been to church since. I used to consider myself an agnostic until I read The God Delusion. Been strictly athiest since then once I realized I don't need to believe in mythology or some quasi-afterlife to make myself feel good about life.

Hey - I think religion holds its place. Back in the day, and in "less civilized" countries, it was/is a good excuse to get people riled up, cause violence and ultimately death.

But in developed countries like ours, it is seldom that religion does any harm, and I feel that those I know who believe are better off for it.

With that said, I'm agnostic. My thoughts are really more science and logic based than anything. I think there is so much we, as humans, do *not* know that to believe there is no higher being whatsoever is rather close-minded. With that said, until I see evidence that any such being exists I'm going to go about my business as if he/it does not.

And as for the actual question in the first place, I don't believe that Church is required for one to worship. I feel churches are generally places that try to dictate how one is to believe, and many tend to raid the finances of their congregation. On the other hand, it is a good place to meet and interact with like-minded individuals... so as long as people go to church with a true understanding of what it is and what it provides them rather than blindly going in order to be a sheep, it is probably a good thing for those who believe.

[sputnik]

"Basically out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I've ever heard is, 'Yeah, there's this big giant universe and it's expanding, it's all gonna collapse on itself and we're all just here just 'cause... just 'cause'. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever."

- Trey Parker

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by sputnik
"Basically out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I've ever heard is, 'Yeah, there's this big giant universe and it's expanding, it's all gonna collapse on itself and we're all just here just 'cause... just 'cause'. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever."

- Trey Parker

We're technically here at a biological level to reproduce.
The quote implies that we should be special in the universe and should be the only thing in the universe with an ultimate purpose or destiny. How selfish!

[triplep]

Used to go to church, now I try to get out of it every since I went back to the mother country of poland, and found that millions of dollars were spent on the building of a new church :S when there are thousands of poor people......

Since they, I lost all my faith in the church, still believe in God (or a higher intellectual being), but not the church hence I don't go.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by triplep
Used to go to church, now I try to get out of it every since I went back to the mother country of poland, and found that millions of dollars were spent on the building of a new church :S when there are thousands of poor people......

Since they, I lost all my faith in the church, still believe in God (or a higher intellectual being), but not the church hence I don't go.

So are you also against professional sports, Hollywood movies, casinos, tropical resorts, designer clothes, luxury cars, secular charities with big offices and other entities that people give their money to?

Why just target religious people giving to a church to build a new church? Its not like churchgoers don't have a say on how the church finances are managed. Every member at least has an equal vote.

[triplep]

Originally posted by sputnik


So are you also against professional sports, Hollywood movies, casinos, tropical resorts, designer clothes, luxury cars, secular charities with big offices and other entities that people give their money to?

Why just target religious people giving to a church to build a new church? Its not like churchgoers don't have a say on how the church finances are managed. Every member at least has an equal vote.


Nope not against professional sports, hollywood movies, casinos, tropical resorts, designer clothes, luxury cars etc. And the reason that I don't see anything against them is because, they don't preach that I will be a better person or that I should do things to make everyone around me better.

As far as charities, yes I do have problems with them as well, why should someone at the red cross make 300k a year? And why should my money be spent on supplying that persons salary? Now I am not against all charities, one that comes to mind, is the flames foundation, and they do not have a single person on the payroll, aka all the money donated, goes to the flames foundation and not to someones salary.

Yeah, unfortunately, I don't think all church goers have a say in how the finances are used, but my main point was, that the church/clergy always preach about helping your neighbour out and the goodness of society as a whole, yet, they spend millions of dollars on a new church. Now, I don't mind if they make a new church, not at all but the extravagance of what they built was just sickening.
http://finalhour.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/lichen-church-poland.jpg
http://www.marypages.com/Lichen6.jpg

Also, there was other churches already in that complex. So I think it was a little bit over the top for them to build it when there were so many other people in need.

And IMHO I really could give a rats ass what people give their money too, and you are entitled to your own opinion, I was just answering the OP's question whether I attend church or not.

[CUG]

I feel that atheists would make a lot more friends if they weren't so religious about atheism.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by Kloubek
Hey - I think religion holds its place. Back in the day, and in "less civilized" countries, it was/is a good excuse to get people riled up, cause violence and ultimately death.

But in developed countries like ours, it is seldom that religion does any harm, and I feel that those I know who believe are better off for it.

With that said, I'm agnostic. My thoughts are really more science and logic based than anything. I think there is so much we, as humans, do *not* know that to believe there is no higher being whatsoever is rather close-minded. With that said, until I see evidence that any such being exists I'm going to go about my business as if he/it does not.

I'd say back when we were all savages, religion provided a necessary moral code. Today, religion's the enemy to scientific progress. While science approaches the world progressively and provides useful scientific advances, religion accepts everything as "the will of God." While in today's world, this is not as negative of a thing (with the exception of stuff like stem cell research in the States), a mere 500 years ago scientists could easily be considered "heretics" and either forced to repent or not publish their work until after their deaths. You can see the way religion continues to spread hate even today in the developed world in the evangelicals in the southern United States. Just like the many teachings of religion which were once considered literal and now are only "metaphores", I don't think religion needs to exist in society at this point. The morals it engrained in early humanity no longer need a religious justification.

Having said that, your thinking sounds very much like mine was a couple years ago Kloubek. I'd recommend, even if just for a few laughs, read The God Delusion. Very well written book.

[Guillermo]

i don't want to sidetrack too much, but have to say that The God Delusion is an excellent book. it turned me also from agnostic to atheist. there's also a really good 2-hour BBC documentary for those who don't feel like reading it.

here's the first part: LVr9bJ8Sctk

[ixlr8]

Originally posted by Modelexis

I don't think you understand the concept.


I don't understand the concept?...

"one in a billion chance replication"

Do you read what you write or do you just put random words together and hope they mean something smart?

I'll give you a little hint, if you want to write a phrase like that intending to make people think you know something, at least put some quotes around it and throw it through Google to see if anybody anywhere has ever said it. No results found for "one in a billion chance replication" is a pretty good indicator that your random grouping of smart sounding words isn't so smart.

The problem with you is that you are so damn concerned about self-reinforcing what you already think you know, you can't open your mind to see where you might be wrong.


My post said it all, you can go back and re-live your owning over and over again, until it finally clicks.

OR...

Have the mods set up a thread where only you and I can post, entitle it "Lexy and ixlr8 discuss the nature of reality" or something to that effect, and I would be glad to make you look as silly as you want.

Either way, stop clogging up the fucking thread.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by ixlr8
Either way, stop clogging up the fucking thread.

I know you won't PM me about this idea because you've already shown your cards. You've already failed to answer the question of what makes humans a self contradictory concept akin to a square circle.

You will argue semantics with me like the accuracy of my words describing the estimated chance of self replicating cells, but in the end you have nothing to say to me of substance and nothing to say to me on the issue of low probability vs self contradiction.

I don't want to discuss the nature of reality, you called me out saying humans are a self contradictory entity and you have failed to support your claim. A square circle has nothing to do with the nature of reality.

You aren't even talking apples and apples, if you were you would prove how an infinitely simplistic carbon based replicating single cell is a self contradiction similar to an all powerful all knowing, eternal being such as a God.

Another point for carbon based life is that I can prove that life has arisen in the universe at least once, where you cannot prove that an all knowing and all powerful being has arisen in the universe at any time.

You gotta do a bit more research before you get in the ring with me on this one because your weak evasion tactics won't claim you a win.

PM me if you want to talk about self contradictory entities, otherwise you better leave this subject for the people that know what they're talking about.

I will give you one point, this thread has no place to host the discussion of reality because religion is anti reality, it's like discussing reality in a lord of the rings thread.

[dirtsniffer]

go maybe about once or twice a year with the inlaws. christmas - easter. that is all.

makes me feel good.

[g-m]

never been. Wait, there were some cool ones in europe that I visited! What a colossal waste of 800 years for each one

[ixlr8]

Originally posted by Modelexis

...

Have you convinced yourself you aren't dick tucking or do you need a few more paragraphs?

The nature of reality includes thoughts on talking monkeys, God, circles that don't exist, paradoxical agents, and plenty of other fun stuff.

I chose a topic with a wide breadth because in dealing with someone as caught up in affirming his own tightly clutched dogma as you are, one can't go the simple route.

I've already succinctly explained how we are paradoxical (self contradictory) agents, but I will make it more complex for you.

A conscious agent, in other words a system with the ability to knowingly (subjectively aware) choose against its fundamental protocols, manifesting from unconscious systems, is self contradictory. Not to mention the order from chaos/randomness paradox, which is only resolved if we start dealing with the infinite monkey theorem, in which case we've just bumped into the paradox of infinity itself.

You need a healthy sense of humility and awe, look around you man, whatever the fuck this is, is absurd. Whether it is something from nothingness, or something from infinite somethingness, either conception is simultaneously completely bizarre and completely amazing.


If whatever the fuck this is, is possible, anything is possible.


SO... a, b, or more dick tucking, your choice Lexy.

[CUG]

Eh, as with science and the universe, a supreme being is under no obligation to make itself known to the senses of a human being... just because those human beings demand it ;)

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by CUG
Eh, as with science and the universe, a supreme being is under no obligation to make itself known to the senses of a human being... just because those human beings demand it ;)

Of course this imaginary entity does not have to make itself known in our universe or in reality, but we already have a term to describe these things:
Non Existing.

Or if I tell you that a teapot can simultaneously be a horse and a motorcycle yet not be known to anyone in the universe, are you saying that you cannot make a statement about it's existence? Are you going to grant me a probability that this conceptual idea might exist, or that it's existence probability is similar to that of our own species evolving from single cells?

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by ixlr8


Have you convinced yourself you aren't dick tucking or do you need a few more paragraphs?

The nature of reality includes thoughts on talking monkeys, God, circles that don't exist, paradoxical agents, and plenty of other fun stuff.

I chose a topic with a wide breadth because in dealing with someone as caught up in affirming his own tightly clutched dogma as you are, one can't go the simple route.

I've already succinctly explained how we are paradoxical (self contradictory) agents, but I will make it more complex for you.

A conscious agent, in other words a system with the ability to knowingly (subjectively aware) choose against its fundamental protocols, manifesting from unconscious systems, is self contradictory. Not to mention the order from chaos/randomness paradox, which is only resolved if we start dealing with the infinite monkey theorem, in which case we've just bumped into the paradox of infinity itself.

You need a healthy sense of humility and awe, look around you man, whatever the fuck this is, is absurd. Whether it is something from nothingness, or something from infinite somethingness, either conception is simultaneously completely bizarre and completely amazing.


If whatever the fuck this is, is possible, anything is possible.


SO... a, b, or more dick tucking, your choice Lexy.

A few major errors here.

The first is that you are equating things which seem absurd and things that are by definition self contradictions.

A horse with stripes seems absurd.
A horse that is simultaneously a horse and a cargo train is a self contradictory statement.

The second is that you use the word chaos and randomness to describe how a single celled replicating organism evolves into more complex life forms. This is an incorrect and dishonest way of describing a well known theory of evolution. We see complexity through natural selection, where a more desirable trait or mutation will be more likely to reproduce and continue on the tree of life and as the tree grows we see more and more complexity.

This is embarrassingly easy to grasp your attempts at fabricating a self contradiction from what seems to be a paradox.

You again speak of a conscious agent, and I don't even have to debate you on this because we should be talking apples to apples, lets compare the two things that came from nothing, our ancestors which would have been single celled and simplistic with no consciousness, which branched off into trees and fungus which also do not have consciousness. Why don't you explain how trees are a self contradiction?

You have to start talking in a more honest way and to the challenge that is put out for you, spinning highly defined definitions into sloppy half baked fabrications is not very noble of you.

Humans are bizarre, a bird that is also a locomotive is self contradictory.
The difference, is when you define the term humans you have a definition that doesn't detonate on it's face with descriptions that contradict themselves (consciousness without physical form). Even if we randomly sprang into life fully formed and conscious, the concept of human would still be real and the definition would not be a self contradiction.

[ixlr8]

Originally posted by Modelexis

More dick tucking.


Simple unconscious systems evolve into complex unconscious systems.

End of story.


The fact that consciousness (a system that can knowingly choose against its fundamental protocols) evolved from unconscious systems, is self contradictory. It may have happened, but it is a paradox.


Paradox = Self Contradictory

We are paradoxes, just like any conception of God.

There I have made it as concise for you as possible, with no poetry, as you apparently can't see past it.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by ixlr8


Simple unconscious systems evolve into complex unconscious systems.

End of story.


The fact that consciousness (a system that can knowingly choose against its fundamental protocols) evolved from unconscious systems, is self contradictory. It may have happened, but it is a paradox.


Paradox = Self Contradictory

We are paradoxes, just like any conception of God.

There I have made it as concise for you as possible, with no poetry, as you apparently can't see past it.

You still have not grasped the concept of self contradiction.
Something that seems illogical, is not the same as something that by definition cannot exist.
We get consciousness from unconsciousness every time a child is born.
Sperm and eggs by themselves are not conscious, but every time we have a newborn child we arrive at consciousness.

What we don't get all the time is a train that is also a cloud of hydrogen and a singing snake simultaneously.

There are bizarre things, that on their face seem completely unbelievable, but that still function in reality and are consistent with the laws of reality and the laws of physics and the laws of gravity etc. So while they seem crazy and mysterious, they are not self contradictions.
One human born normally and one human born with no ability to obey the laws of gravity would be a contradiction closer to that of the concept of god.

[ixlr8]

Originally posted by Modelexis


You still have not grasped the concept of self contradiction.
Something that seems illogical, is not the same as something that by definition cannot exist.
We get consciousness from unconsciousness every time a child is born.
Sperm and eggs by themselves are not conscious, but every time we have a newborn child we arrive at consciousness.


Ahahahaha...

I don't understand?

You got your unconscious sperm and egg from two conscious systems which made the conscious decision to align themselves with their fundamental protocol of reproduction.

I feel sorry for you, it seems you really are oblivious to how bad your replies are.

[Modelexis]

You sound like a creationist,
"how did we go from nothing, to fully grown trees?"

Embarrassing dude.

Are you going to start talking about a watch with no watchmaker now?
You're a complete joke.

You're just a monkey, same as I am trying to make sense of the world, but if you think you're going to say that you as a conscious being by definition cannot exist and do not obey any basic laws of reality, all your work is ahead of you I'm afraid.

It's a lot easier for obvious reasons to explain why something that cannot exist does not exist than to explain why something exists but 'shouldn't exist'.
You have done a poor job explaining to me why humans exist, but by definition, humans 'should not exist'.

Existence disproves any theory of non existence that states that the thing cannot exist. This is grade 1 logic.

If my logic of existence does not include things that don't exist in the world, I am already on the right track. If my logic of existence includes say all life on earth and claims that it should not exist, something has gone wrong.

[BananaFob]

Originally posted by Isaiah
Who attends regularly? Not interested in this turning this into another Kool-Aid vs. science debate; just wondering what the stats are for the beyond.ca demographic.

It's funny how every single thread that even has the slightest hint of religion in it will get all the atheists out preaching.

[botox]

Answered Never. But went a handful of times in the last 15 years or so because of friends getting us to try it out. Needless to say we don't talk to those friends much anymore cause they keep pushing us to go when we really don't want to. My rule is pretty simple, don't push your religion on me and I won't push my beliefs on you.

[Feruk]

Originally posted by ixlr8

The fact that consciousness (a system that can knowingly choose against its fundamental protocols) evolved from unconscious systems, is self contradictory. It may have happened, but it is a paradox.

Paradox = Self Contradictory

What you call consciousness I call a series of biochemical and electrical reactions.

By your weak definition of paradox, here's one for you: Ice is heavier than air so it can't fly. But when it gets warm enough (100C), it starts to fly. Mindfreak!

(Sorry was trashing Chris Angel all weekend)

[Seth1968]

You sound like a creationist, "how did we go from nothing, to fully grown trees?" Embarrassing dude. Are you going to start talking about a watch with no watchmaker now? You're a complete joke.

I was just waiting for him to pull out the "Watchmaker" card.

Cogito is absolute truth. That is, unless our consciousnesses creates truth as we go along.

[CUG]

Originally posted by Modelexis


Of course this imaginary entity does not have to make itself known in our universe or in reality, but we already have a term to describe these things:
Non Existing.
You're not as studied as I thought you were: you're of the opinion that if you've yet to experience something, it doesn't exist? That's the arrogance that is holding back our collective intelligence

Scientists would call that "undiscovered" or "unobservable".

The best part? I stole most that from Neil DeGasse, who is an admitted atheist.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by CUG
You're not as studied as I thought you were: you're of the opinion that if you've yet to experience something, it doesn't exist? That's the arrogance that is holding back our collective intelligence

Scientists would call that "undiscovered" or "unobservable".



There is no "yet to experience". The fact that you claim such, means that the experience has already occurred.

[CUG]

Originally posted by Seth1968


There is no "yet to experience". The fact that you claim such, means that the experience has already occurred. That's questionable. If Canada has yet to experience a tsunami, you're suggesting that Canada has already experienced a tsunami. I totally get it bro.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by CUG
You're not as studied as I thought you were: you're of the opinion that if you've yet to experience something, it doesn't exist? That's the arrogance that is holding back our collective intelligence

Scientists would call that "undiscovered" or "unobservable".

The best part? I stole most that from Neil DeGasse, who is an admitted atheist.

I shouldn't have to keep explaining this, but I am not saying the concept of god doesn't exist, I'm saying it CANNOT exist.

There are basic laws that govern matter and energy in the universe, and if you have a concept that violates several of the laws of reality, the thing you are describing by definition does not exist.

It's really that simple.

If I describe something that is consciousness but is without matter or energy, or lives outside of the universe or our reality, by definition, it does not exist.

A frog with hooves doesn't exist (that I'm aware of), but it could potentially exist at some time as species are known to change and mutations are common in the world, however unlikely it would be to occur, it is a concept that at least doesn't self destruct in definition on the onset. A frog that is simultaneously a cat and a mouse and can run faster than the speed of light and does not consist of matter or energy not only doesn't exist, it can NEVER exist.

Yourself and Xlr8 are having a hard time differentiating a claim about an unexplained or experience in the universe that hasn't yet been experienced, and a claim about something that has defined itself as not existing.
I'm not even saying that laws of physics are absolute. If something were to break the speed of light, this would merely change the laws to be more accurate, it wouldn't contradict basic laws of reality. If I describe something that has no mass or energy that travels at twice the speed of light and at the same time travels at -5 times the speed of light, all while giving birth to a son, this not only doesn't exist but cannot exist.

[projekz]

Originally posted by Isaiah
Who attends regularly? Not interested in this turning this into another Kool-Aid vs. science debate; just wondering what the stats are for the beyond.ca demographic.

Some of you guys need to read the OP's post again...:facepalm: :facepalm:

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by CUG
That's questionable.

Of course it's questionable. That's the definition of consciousness.

Your sig explains such.

[CUG]

Originally posted by Modelexis


I shouldn't have to keep explaining this, but I am not saying the concept of god doesn't exist, I'm saying it CANNOT exist.

I'm not asking you to explain it. I know your position, and I'm telling you that your thought model is fallible. :dunno:

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by CUG
I'm not asking you to explain it. I know your position, and I'm telling you that your thought model is fallible. :dunno:

You can write an empty baseless statement without any argument but it holds no weight in this discussion.
Are you gonna hang out on that fence for the rest of your life, or are you ever going to have the courage to take a stand on ideas? When is it going to be ok for you to make truth statements about reality? Are you afraid of hurting someones feelings or losing friends?

[Kloubek]

Hate to break up this bitchfest, but I just found something online I thought was reasonably funny and figured this might be a good place to share it. (Even if it derails the thread a bit)

http://www.wimp.com/atheistgod/

[ixlr8]

Wow, there are so many straw men in this thread it's a wonder shit doesn't catch on fire. When the atheists are resorting to tactics that the apologists like to use, it is good news for the open minded.



Originally posted by Feruk

What you call consciousness I call a series of biochemical and electrical reactions.


Holy shit is that what consciousness is? What amazing insight! I suggest you submit your theory to a respected journal like Philo or Consciousness and Cognition for peer review. I am sure they would appreciate your breakthrough.



As to you Lexy, enough is enough, I'm gonna go make our special thread, come join me oh wise one.

[CUG]

Originally posted by Modelexis


You can write an empty baseless statement without any argument but it holds no weight in this discussion.
Are you gonna hang out on that fence for the rest of your life, or are you ever going to have the courage to take a stand on ideas? When is it going to be ok for you to make truth statements about reality? Are you afraid of hurting someones feelings or losing friends? Are you on the Toma wagon too? Fuck off, stupid. You had a shit response to an extremely valid point. You're doing the exact thing you dick wallets accused me of in the Nenshi thread.

[Modelexis]

I'm not on any wagon, I just don't see the point of debate if no one makes a positive truth claim. If we both believe that there is no concept that can be put forth that doesn't exist, I don't see any reason for any debate on any subject.

If no one had any truth claims there would be no debates, if everything is subjective there can be no debate.

I'm being hard on you CUG and you're quite right for the most part of your evaluation of my sometimes over reaching demeanor, I admit that my patience in some of these discussions is short lived, especially when the people around me are losing theirs.

Can you make a truth statement about anything to do with existence?
Even a truth statement that says "nothing can be proved to not exist"
(just as an example, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth)

Anything like that?

Or you might be able to help me understand why I'm so obsessed with truth claims and absolutes?

My training on the subject is weak and I have no credit to my name, but I have a hard time believing that there is no such thing as truth. Maybe I have an infantile view of the world and am missing a fundamental thought process that illustrates the naive nature of truth claims?

[CUG]

Originally posted by Modelexis
I'm not on any wagon, I just don't see the point of debate if no one makes a positive truth claim. If we both believe that there is no concept that can be put forth that doesn't exist, I don't see any reason for any debate on any subject.

If no one had any truth claims there would be no debates, if everything is subjective there can be no debate.

I'm being hard on you CUG and you're quite right for the most part of your evaluation of my sometimes over reaching demeanor, I admit that my patience in some of these discussions is short lived, especially when the people around me are losing theirs.

Can you make a truth statement about anything to do with existence?
Even a truth statement that says "nothing can be proved to not exist"
(just as an example, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth)

Anything like that?

Or you might be able to help me understand why I'm so obsessed with truth claims and absolutes?

My training on the subject is weak and I have no credit to my name, but I have a hard time believing that there is no such thing as truth. Maybe I have an infantile view of the world and am missing a fundamental thought process that illustrates the naive nature of truth claims? Nobody appreciates civility more than I do, and when I deviate from it, I'm having fun. I don't actually think you're a dick wallet.

The problem I have with.... I'll move this to the other thread.

[Isaiah]

Should have intervened a while ago. I appreciate those who have addressed the original topic and have stayed on track.

While I won't take sides in the turbulent debate that seems to have now subsided, I would like to highlight the following definition for those who are intolerant of others' views:


Bigot (disambiguation)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own or intolerant of people of different political views, ethnicity, race, class, religion, profession, sexuality or gender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot_(disambiguation)

[kvg]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/10/24/8dffd398-bb43-4d0d-8d38-2f375808db75.jpg

[95EG6P]

used to go when i was young but not no more but still pray to god every night before i go ot bed :)

[Guillermo]

Originally posted by Isaiah
Should have intervened a while ago. I appreciate those who have addressed the original topic and have stayed on track.

While I won't take sides in the turbulent debate that seems to have now subsided, I would like to highlight the following definition for those who are intolerant of others' views:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigot_(disambiguation)

but science isn't about opinions :D

[Isaiah]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting and surprising to see from the poll results that 27% of respondents regularly attend church.