Attawapiskat Crisis

[AndyL]

I'm with phreak, it might be dirty in appearance, but it's no environmental hazard... I've probably got 50lbs of it in my lungs, used to spend inordinate amounts of time cleaning the dust off my equipment and tools... Turned the bathtub black every night when I got home... 8years later, I'm no worse for the wear...

When you look at all the VOCs that occur in oilsands - it's insane to think the reclaimed land is 'worse' than the way it was... Just like all the reserves up there complaining about health effect from the plants - it's not the plants, they're sitting on a huge oilspill - its everywhere, walk through any wetland up there and you find it seeping from the ground... Yet it's the plants thats causing cancers, not their natural environment...

The plants get undue oversight; between the bitchy union types, the safety officers, government environment whiners and the environazi's... It's probably the most overseen operation in the world.

Ever seen the sydney tar ponds? Now those are an environmental mess...

[msommers]

The mining in Alberta has nothing to do with this issue. Why are you still talking about?

But I'll play. Ryan, where are you getting your toxicity levels from?

[Sugarphreak]

...

[FraserB]

On the plus side, Total-Joslyn was approved.:D

I guess if we run out of work in town, Sugarphreak and I can go up and drive an excavator.:D

[Arash Boodagh]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Most other mines in Canada have tailings ponds with toxicity levels that would make your skin crawl. The regulations for containment and clean up are so much lighter too.

The only reason the oilsands operations get a bad wrap is because they make lots of money and the material they are extractive makes great negative imagery. Ever see that Simpson's episode where Mr.Burns spits out that three eyed fish after telling the public that its safe to eat?

I would like to see you and your family live down the river, the same place that the natives are getting a high cancer rate, then I would take your feelings and thoughts as genuine.

--

Its funny how I see documentaries of black Africans or poor Latin Americans that live in the worst contaminated conditions or places without sewage systems and next to their habitat is a multi-million, if not a billion, dollar multi-national company extracting resources.
Now that is seen here in my country with the Attawapiskat's and DeBeers.

--

If anyone here had a proper Canadian education, which is none existent across Canada, they would know that since Canada's existence and its 500 billion dollar debt, only ~50 billion has been used on actual programs... the rest of the 450 billion was spent on interest!

The only waste and malicious thievery is setup by our system

edit - my video source
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSFL8WzcbI

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
Ever see that Simpson's episode where Mr.Burns spits out that three eyed fish after telling the public that its safe to eat?

I would like to see you and your family live down the river, the same place that the natives are getting a high cancer rate, then I would take your feelings and thoughts as genuine.

--

Its funny how I see documentaries of black Africans or poor Latin Americans that live in the worst contaminated conditions or places without sewage systems and next to their habitat is a multi-million, if not a billion, dollar multi-national company extracting resources.
Now that is seen here in my country with the Attawapiskat's and DeBeers.

--

If anyone here had a proper Canadian education, which is none existent across Canada, they would know that since Canada's existence and its 500 billion dollar debt, only ~50 billion has been used on actual programs... the rest of the 450 billion was spent on interest!

The only waste and malicious thievery is setup by our system

edit - my video source
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSFL8WzcbI

While I agree with you regarding the terrible Canadian "education" system, "none existent"? Really?

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
Ever see that Simpson's episode where Mr.Burns spits out that three eyed fish after telling the public that its safe to eat?

I would like to see you and your family live down the river, the same place that the natives are getting a high cancer rate, then I would take your feelings and thoughts as genuine.

--

Its funny how I see documentaries of black Africans or poor Latin Americans that live in the worst contaminated conditions or places without sewage systems and next to their habitat is a multi-million, if not a billion, dollar multi-national company extracting resources.
Now that is seen here in my country with the Attawapiskat's and DeBeers.

--

If anyone here had a proper Canadian education, which is none existent across Canada, they would know that since Canada's existence and its 500 billion dollar debt, only ~50 billion has been used on actual programs... the rest of the 450 billion was spent on interest!

The only waste and malicious thievery is setup by our system

edit - my video source
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSFL8WzcbI


At first I was like WTF?? Then I saw who was posting, I didnt even think he was real!

[jutes]

Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
Ever see that Simpson's episode where Mr.Burns spits out that three eyed fish after telling the public that its safe to eat?

I would like to see you and your family live down the river, the same place that the natives are getting a high cancer rate, then I would take your feelings and thoughts as genuine.

--

Its funny how I see documentaries of black Africans or poor Latin Americans that live in the worst contaminated conditions or places without sewage systems and next to their habitat is a multi-million, if not a billion, dollar multi-national company extracting resources.
Now that is seen here in my country with the Attawapiskat's and DeBeers.

--

If anyone here had a proper Canadian education, which is none existent across Canada, they would know that since Canada's existence and its 500 billion dollar debt, only ~50 billion has been used on actual programs... the rest of the 450 billion was spent on interest!

The only waste and malicious thievery is setup by our system

edit - my video source
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSFL8WzcbI

Your source. :rofl: Go home pizza boy, street's closed.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[revelations]

I've been to dozens of reserves in my time for various reasons (delivering furniture, RCMP, etc.) and from the pictures, sad to say, these are typical conditions in MANY reserves in Canada.

One house I went to the natives had literally a patch of grass growing in the living room carpet by the window because of all the dirt and animals that were in the house. Smell of urine everywhere.

These people just.... dont...... care, about anything very much.

I've actually been to a neighbouring reserve near Attawapiskat - (Ogoki Post). We were flying a survey aircraft conducting an environmental study for a potential rail line to a mine in the area.

Everytime we landed, a group of natives would show up with a van or with a quad and a trailer - they thought we were a supply aircraft of some sort and sat there just waiting to be given their handouts. After seeing just the 2 of us, they would normally leave....but they came back everytime we landed. :dunno:

What a waste.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Arash Boodagh]

Could have been unlawful to look inside for your bike because some native communities arent in our "system" and are not bound to the Canadian corporation and its legal laws.
They are kind of sovereign entities (free), so I guess the government feels no obligation to care for them as Canadian citizens, just trade or give some kind of aid.
It would be pretty embarrassing for Canada if Cuba sent its international aid doctors up here and countries like Russia or China send winter tents through the U.N.


Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


While I agree with you regarding the terrible Canadian "education" system, "none existent"? Really? Ask any high schooler or adult what the Boston Tea Party was about or what Lincoln was trying to achieve, they'd never say it was a revolution to issue their own currency. To this day they have lost the battle and the people of this country too have no power over money which is the life blood of a country. The education system and media are betraying us.
Whats worse is that people are joining the army (many because of poverty I think), fighting corporate interest wars , If no one joined, then they'd issue a draft and then people would wakeup.


Originally posted by jutes


Your source. :rofl: Go home pizza boy, street's closed. That guy was a school teacher btw :)

[Sugarphreak]

...

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
Could have been unlawful to look inside for your bike because some native communities arent in our "system" and are not bound to the Canadian corporation and its legal laws.
They are kind of sovereign entities (free), so I guess the government feels no obligation to care for them as Canadian citizens, just trade or give some kind of aid.
It would be pretty embarrassing for Canada if Cuba sent its international aid doctors up here and countries like Russia or China send winter tents through the U.N.

Ask any high schooler or adult what the Boston Tea Party was about or what Lincoln was trying to achieve, they'd never say it was a revolution to issue their own currency. To this day they have lost the battle and the people of this country too have no power over money which is the life blood of a country. The education system and media are betraying us.
Whats worse is that people are joining the army (many because of poverty I think), fighting corporate interest wars , If no one joined, then they'd issue a draft and then people would wakeup.

That guy was a school teacher btw :)

Instead of spouting the same tired rhetoric, why not focus your efforts on thinking of realistic solutions. People would be more open to whatever message you are trying to convey if they knew you had a proposition and not just a gripe.

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


No, but they can take the government to court and they'll win for sure. The government is not above the law.

The government makes and regulates the law...mr. lawyer? The government doesn't have to abide by any obligations if they choose not to. You have the PM, Parliament and the Canadian people in favor of something and laws get changed.

Courts (as you should know mr. genius LSAT boy) only judge whether someone has gone against a law the government has created. If the government takes "native status" out of the constitution (when it was never even there in the first place) and decides to interpret treaties differently...the natives are fucked and the government can really do what they want. Do some real research buddy not just your opinion bullshit on this.

You are the type of person I can guarantee talking to for 5 minutes I would punch in the face from pure stupidity.

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross


I've worked there on and off since 2002, so I'd say I'm pretty darn familiary with what goes on and more specifically, the lack of government regulation when it comes to protecting the environment. Take a drive north on 63 past town and tell me if you would want your children living under those clouds.

You clearly are spewing shit out your ass now. Your an electrician and its obvious you know nothing about regulations in the oil sands. Ever heard of D-56? This among the many other directives that put burdens on corporations and force them to have very strict environmental regulations? Along with the SRB, ERCB and sometimes their federal equivalents(based on location) regularly checking everything to do with these projects.

Your knowledge is laughable at best.

[Arash Boodagh]

Originally posted by Type_S1


The government makes and regulates the law...mr. lawyer? The government doesn't have to abide by any obligations if they choose not to. You have the PM, Parliament and the Canadian people in favor of something and laws get changed.

Courts (as you should know mr. genius LSAT boy) only judge whether someone has gone against a law the government has created. If the government takes "native status" out of the constitution (when it was never even there in the first place) and decides to interpret treaties differently...the natives are fucked and the government can really do what they want. Do some real research buddy not just your opinion bullshit on this.

You are the type of person I can guarantee talking to for 5 minutes I would punch in the face from pure stupidity.
What your suggesting is a war with the natives, but legally Ryan is right from my education. You can get more insight into it with the video I link in my post here.


Originally posted by Sugarphreak


So, in your utopia free world it would be ok to steal from somebody? I was guessing as to why the cops didnt crack down on the stolen things because the police officers themselves could be charge for unlawfully entering someones property, a higher law then legal, where people here have given most of their rights (unknowingly and voluntary) to the government to do almost anything they want.

Some deep stuff if you're into knowing about it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUs2MW6a9aQ&feature=related


Originally posted by Sugarphreak

Also, the problem here is people not helping themselves... Cuba, Russia and China could send all the tents they want and it isn't going to fix the problems. They are social problems at the core, and they stem from being placed in a completely socialist environment.

People need to be challenged, it is our nature. Earning things in life gives us goals and a reason to live, without that we get unmotivated and depressed... which leads to problems like substance abuse, gangs formed out of boredom, and idle hands that look for things to do.

The solution has never been to throw more money and aid at the problem. Introduce a merit system of some kind and you would see these reserves flourish. I doubt the government will ever care, if it was smart enough it would have never sold that land to DeBeers in the first place... developing its own commodity extraction mines and hiring the surrounding populace to do the work.

Sure Canada doesn't have to help these people, the same as African countries or the U.N. dont have to help people who live in drought stricken lands. Let them starve or suffer from health problems can be one view.
Another view is that Canada has lots of wealth, its a huge country with vast resources. Helping the native people will cost pennies but the media will spin this as if its going to hurt our pockets.

Our latest 18 billion dollar, 65 jet plane purchase (including maintenance) costs $277 million for each plane.
Imagine all the monster cabins that can be built across our north for one plane and all the jobs it would create.


Originally posted by FraserB


Instead of spouting the same tired rhetoric, why not focus your efforts on thinking of realistic solutions. People would be more open to whatever message you are trying to convey if they knew you had a proposition and not just a gripe. Give back a plane, Im sure we still have the receipt.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by Arash Boodagh

What your suggesting is a war with the natives, but legally Ryan is right from my education. You can get more insight into it with the video I link in my post here.



Legally, no, he is completely wrong. What is your education background to state this.

From my education I took multiple courses on environmental regulation in Canada and Native relations in the energy industry. Many individuals in this class, thinking the same as me, asked the question to two well respected lawyers in Calgary along with two of the law professors at the University of Calgary. The question was simply "is there anyway possible we can simply cut them off?" All of them agreed it would be damn near impossibly in the current political climate and current mindset of people in Canada...but if the government, and Canadian people wanted to...it could be done to an extent. The first step is getting Native status out of the constitution which would require a 2/3 vote through Parliament(damn near impossible right now). The second would be the government interpreting the "treaties" differently. Nowhere in the treaties do we talk about things like "traditional lands" or a $ amount money we must fund them among various other things. Sure we can't force them off their lands...we gave it to them...but we can sure cut payments to them and take away alot of the bullshit rights we gave them and treat them like any other Canadian.

There is a legal basis for this, but if anyone disagrees...call a lawyer yourself.

[Arash Boodagh]

My education is all from internet videos so Im no expert, but from my understanding its unlawful, an international human rights law, for the Canadian government to infringe on the natural rights of the natives in this land. Like polluting their environment, stealing land that their ancestors have occupied for thousands of years which was a food source for them, and restricting their movement because they are not Canadian.
Of course the U.N. or any country isnt going to militarily standup for the natives but in the international courts, the Canadian corporation will be in the wrong.

[FraserB]

Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
My education is all from internet videos so Im no expert, but from my understanding its unlawful, an international human rights law, for the Canadian government to infringe on the natural rights of the natives in this land. Like polluting their environment, stealing land that their ancestors have occupied for thousands of years which was a food source for them, and restricting their movement because they are not Canadian.
Of course the U.N. or any country isnt going to militarily standup for the natives but in the international courts, the Canadian corporation will be in the wrong.

I formally petition the mods of Beyond for a larger "facepalm" icon, the present one is nowhere near big enough for this.

[Sugarphreak]

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[Guillermo]

Originally posted by Arash Boodagh
My education is all from internet videos

:rofl:

this guy must be a climate change skeptic as well.

[ercchry]

the fact he keeps referring to the government as a corporation makes me think he stumbled upon a few free man of the land videos in his internet journey :rofl:

[hampstor]

Originally posted by ercchry
the fact he keeps referring to the government as a corporation makes me think he stumbled upon a few free man of the land videos in his internet journey :rofl:

I just spit my water all over my shirt you bastard. That thread was epic. :rofl:

[clem24]

Sweet!!! Who needs post secondary when The Internet = newest form of higher education and it's (practically) free!!! I wonder if there's a website where you can earn your internet degree...

[Sugarphreak]

...

[r3ccOs]

pull the support, and let them live off the land, like they said they did in the "good ole" days

[Ergo-Sun-Tzu]

Based on some research I did on this crisis, the cost of living is very high in Attawapiskat. Also the shipping cost going into this isolated place is very high. Now in terms of economics, I don't know how the local economy is run. I am guessing its non-existent.

I think they should disband these communitys, due to the fact that their self-reliant too much on tax payers money. If Canada was hit with a an economic-turmoil all these people would be in shambles.

If this math is a proper source

The federal government said they have given $90,000,000 through the span of 5 years. 2006-2011

$90,000,000 / 5(years) =$ 15,000,000 / 1800 (people) = $8,333.33 per person each years or $8333.33/12 = $694.44 a month.


Apparently, to build a house in this community cost about $250,000.
Since shipping cost is high to this place.

I don't know, I could be wrong, I am just giving a different perspective on this situation. If you want my sources I think it would be proper to research this better than I could.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Ergo-Sun-Tzu


$90,000,000 / 5(yaars) =$ 15,000,000 / 1800 (people) = $8,333.33 per person each years or $8333.33/12 = $694.44 a month.


poor marth...

[Ergo-Sun-Tzu]

Ya I just got that from another source.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
They are social problems at the core, and they stem from being placed in a completely socialist environment.
Do you honestly think the problems originated from having a socialist environment? Serious question.

In your mind do you actually see the substance abuse and mental issues stemming from boredom due to free money?

[SKR]

Originally posted by Ergo-Sun-Tzu
Based on some research I did on this crisis, the cost of living is very high in Attawapiskat. Also the shipping cost going into this isolated place is very high. Now in terms of economics, I don't know how the local economy is run. I am guessing its non-existent.

I think they should disband these communitys, due to the fact that their self-reliant too much on tax payers money. If Canada was hit with a an economic-turmoil all these people would be in shambles.

If this math is a proper source

The federal government said they have given $90,000,000 through the span of 5 years. 2006-2011

$90,000,000 / 5(years) =$ 15,000,000 / 1800 (people) = $8,333.33 per person each years or $8333.33/12 = $694.44 a month.


Apparently, to build a house in this community cost about $250,000.
Since shipping cost is high to this place.

I don't know, I could be wrong, I am just giving a different perspective on this situation. If you want my sources I think it would be proper to research this better than I could.

Then don't live there. It's such an easy fucking cure. When the supply plane comes in, get the fuck on it and get out.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Ergo-Sun-Tzu
Based on some research I did on this crisis, the cost of living is very high in Attawapiskat. Also the shipping cost going into this isolated place is very high. Now in terms of economics, I don't know how the local economy is run. I am guessing its non-existent.

I think they should disband these communitys, due to the fact that their self-reliant too much on tax payers money. If Canada was hit with a an economic-turmoil all these people would be in shambles.

If this math is a proper source

The federal government said they have given $90,000,000 through the span of 5 years. 2006-2011

$90,000,000 / 5(years) =$ 15,000,000 / 1800 (people) = $8,333.33 per person each years or $8333.33/12 = $694.44 a month.


Apparently, to build a house in this community cost about $250,000.
Since shipping cost is high to this place.

I don't know, I could be wrong, I am just giving a different perspective on this situation. If you want my sources I think it would be proper to research this better than I could.

WTF, are you retarded? 90,000,000/5 = 18,000,000/1929 (people living "on-reserve" in 2010) = $9331/person/year = $777/month

[5.0]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


WTF, are you retarded? 90,000,000/5 = 18,000,000/1929 (people living "on-reserve" in 2010) = $9331/person/year = $777/month

Now add that to what your average household income in Canada... $74,700(2009) combined income, equals $84,031, that is after tax as well.

Now I know the opportunities out there are not as great, but it's time these people start contributing to our country...

That land is yours, great. Make something out of it instead of squatting on your own property taking handouts from the tax payers of this country.

[Cos]

$777 more than I get for free. I work for every god damned penny of mine.

[SKR]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Yep, you give a group of people everything they ever need with no work involved in actually earning it and it leads to all kind of social problems. This isn't targeting any specific group, it is just human nature.

Depression is a major problem when people get everything they ever need, you see it among kids who grow up with the silver spoon in the mouth; but look at the bigger picture, why do you think suicide rates are so high in highly socialist countries?
http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/25/why-the-happiest-states-have-the-highest-suicide-rates/

The people who don't fall victim to it are the ones who find themselves a calling in life. Those people tend to withdraw themselves from such systems.


What is the deal here anyway, with all the new posts I'd say you are back on your Beyond addiction? Thanks to you I am horribly addicted to this site btw!

How do Hutterite colonies work then, if it's human nature to reject a socialist system?

I understand your point that giving away free money and expecting the recipient to do something productive with it isn't working in this specific situation. But to say that such a system is doomed to failure isn't correct. In a lot of cases, maybe most cases. Not all.

[Cos]

Originally posted by SKR


How do Hutterite colonies work then, if it's human nature to reject a socialist system?


Hutt colonies are far from classless. There is lots of politics and power within the colonies. You just dont see it on the outside a lot.

I used to a lot of work for colonies and there is definitely a pecking order.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Yep, you give a group of people everything they ever need with no work involved in actually earning it and it leads to all kind of social problems. This isn't targeting any specific group, it is just human nature.

Depression is a major problem when people get everything they ever need, you see it among kids who grow up with the silver spoon in the mouth; but look at the bigger picture, why do you think suicide rates are so high in highly socialist countries?
http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/25/why-the-happiest-states-have-the-highest-suicide-rates/

The people who don't fall victim to it are the ones who find themselves a calling in life. Those people tend to withdraw themselves from such systems.


What is the deal here anyway, with all the new posts I'd say you are back on your Beyond addiction? Thanks to you I am horribly addicted to this site btw!

Ok I just wanted to make sure I understood your position before I responded.

Lets start with some reading. If you're feeling particularly ambitious, try this one (http://www.ahf.ca/downloads/fetal-alcohol-syndrome.pdf). It's 300+ pages but it's pretty comprehensive. For the sake of this conversation if you want to skim try chapters 4 and 5, but quite a lot of it is relevant.

If you want really simple reading, there's always wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system#Lasting_Effects_of_Residential_Schools)

The societal problems of natives is well documented and established as stemming in large part from horrific abuse that lasted into the mid 1900s at places like residential schools. There are still people alive today who were ripped from their families and sent to these places where at best they were taught to disregard everything they know about themselves, and at worst were beaten and raped. For fucks sakes, it took till the 60s before natives were allowed to even vote like real people.

Now, when you have generations of people dealing with things like PTSD, and having to self medicate with alcohol and drugs because the official channels can't be trusted to treat them properly, subsequent generations are being fucked up with high rates of abuse and neglect.

"So what, lots of people come from shitty backgrounds, why are these people special?"

Good question. The answer lies in who caused these shitty conditions. Seeing as how the government was a direct cause for these problems, the onus falls on the government to try to provide a solution.

So far the solution has been to give them money and set up economic/social programs to encourage self reliance (free schooling, job programs, etc). Neither is a magic pill that is imediately fixing the problem, but simply saying "ok guys, sorry we ruined your society and shattered your lives, but fuck you fix yourselves, the rest of Canada is butthurt" just isn't going to cut it.

You do have a point that providing a meager (lol at "all their needs met", the conditions are often complete and utter shit and you wouldn't want to live on government assistance if given the choice) existence is a crutch that is being used, but there are so many existing problems that no one is really sure what to do. There is way too much history to try to force a solution, simply cutting off support is a final death sentence to many, and the status quo is a long painful process.

Yes, there are many examples of natives leaving the reserve and being productive members of society. I'm not saying it's impossible. I am however pointing out that it's significantly harder for reasons that go far past "they're lazy alcoholics" and have direct ties to the governments recent transgressions. So whenever someone on Beyond (or anywhere really) writes things like "why don't they just get jobs", "why is this my problem" or "why are they bitching about something that happened 300 years ago", I try to point out that they seem to lack a lot of knowledge on the subject.


And the deal is that I have not much to do at work and it gets dark and cold by 4pm. Once spring comes I'm probably a ghost again :D

[SKR]

Originally posted by Cos


Hutt colonies are far from classless. There is lots of politics and power within the colonies. You just dont see it on the outside a lot.

I used to a lot of work for colonies and there is definitely a pecking order.

That's not what socialism is, or what is being discussed. The issue is whether or not a socialist system suppresses the desire to succeed. I'm saying that you can't write it off when clearly there are circumstances where it does work.

Of course it's not working with the reserves, that's not something I'm arguing. The difference between one and the other is the size (reserves are on a national scale, whereas a colony is a few hundred people) and Hutterites are driven by faith. I'm aware that the two can't be directly compared.

I don't want to get into a big fuckfest about socialism vs. capitalism, I just want to explain why I don't think the blame can be entirely put on socialist programs. Not giving them free money would solve the money problem alright, but the real problem is that these groups of people aren't contributing.

If we stop giving them money, they're likely not going to treat that as a wake up call to get up and contribute. They're still going to be brokedick, and we'll end up paying for them anyway. There needs to be some goal for them to work towards before they'll start to put out. Cutting off the cash is part of that, but not all of it.

[Ryan Shawcross]

Originally posted by 5.0


Now add that to what your average household income in Canada... $74,700(2009) combined income, equals $84,031, that is after tax as well.

Now I know the opportunities out there are not as great, but it's time these people start contributing to our country...

That land is yours, great. Make something out of it instead of squatting on your own property taking handouts from the tax payers of this country.


I would argue that the white man is squatting on the native's property. Perhaps it is just me, but I think the country was in a lot better shape from an environmnental perspective before whitey showed up with his machines and pollution.

[5.0]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross



I would argue that the white man is squatting on the native's property. Perhaps it is just me, but I think the country was in a lot better shape from an environmnental perspective before whitey showed up with his machines and pollution.

I would argue that they agreed to let us stay, so tough break...

[Ryan Shawcross]

They agreed to let us stay on a series of conditions, many of which we have failed to meet as evidenced by the current crisis in this particular reserve.

[5.0]

There comes a point when some promises need to be broken. It is obvious in this case that they are irresponsible with the money that they have been given, as evidenced in many other cases. It's time for them to stand on there own feet and adapt to the world around them. The past cannot be changed...

I do support the funding that they receive and believe it should continue but only if it is managed in a way that is acceptable and fair, not only to their own people but to the citizens of Canada who support them. That will not happen without intervention of us whities.,

[Type_S1]

Originally posted by Ryan Shawcross
They agreed to let us stay on a series of conditions, many of which we have failed to meet as evidenced by the current crisis in this particular reserve.

Your actually retarded aren't you.

I officially can say I smell a troll here. This guy spews random shit out of his ass with no support for it.

Oh and environmentally better before the whitey came along? I am starting to think your a native myself...because with the crap you post your must be drunk or high on something LOL. If the "whitey" didn't come along...who else would have? Americans eventually move north and slaughter all the natives like in the USA? (my opinion would have been better to that then where we are now) How about other Europeans coming over? The French, Russian, Spanish....? The fact is Canada was going to be colonized by someone...Britain just made it here first and bent over for their future generations to be fucked by the natives instead of doing what any logical thinking country would do. :dunno: I don't understand any of your points...because frankly...they are all retarded with no support or evidence.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[hampstor]

I would say it's 2 factors, one external and one internal to the individual

The external factor: I wouldn't say that the socialist-ish system we have setup for the First Nations suppresses their desire to succeed. I would say it removes incentives for them to succeed instead. The reason I believe this isn't the sole factor is because everyone has different incentives to succeed. While it may rob some people of their incentives, there are others who are incented in different ways and find a way to succeed. With such a disproportionate number of reserves in the condition they are in, I find it difficult to say this is the main factor.

The internal factor: for most of us, we have a desire to succeed in everything we do. However with the first nations, I would say the prolonged abuse has significantly reduced that desire to succeed. Prolonged abuse significantly changes people and I would imagine many would have a 'failure' and fearful mentality. The "can't" vs. the "can" mentality so to speak.

Compound those 2 factors together and you have the makings of a very depressing person. I would imagine this person would be very prone to: poverty, suicide, drug and alcohol abuse, and abusing others around them.

[SKR]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I don't really get your reference to hutterite colonies, they are self sufficent and do everything for themselves. It isn't like they are getting government support. From what I understand if you live in one of those colonies, you work your ass off... they don't just float you along.

I strongly disagree, any system where it allows the majority of people to stop working/contributing to society and recieve external support is doomed to failure.

Short version: I think I misunderstood your posts, and was arguing a point that was never made.

Long version: Look at a colony as an enclosed system, and look at Canada as an enclosed system. The colony provides for members that don't or can't contribute, and Canada provides for members that don't or can't contribute (the natives in Attawapiskat, in this case). That's how I'm making the connection. It's just a ridiculous difference in scale.

Anyway, I've been taking your posts to mean that social programs that give people a free ride, will bring the whole system down. And why I brought up the Hutterites was, if that was true, then the colonies would collapse. Which they don't. They're absolutely able to survive while sharing resources with everyone. I thought you meant that giving money to the natives would create social problems in the Canadian population as a whole, but in your last post I think I see that you didn't mean that.

So yeah. This was a long, drawn-out process for nothing, wasn't it?

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


complete and utter horseshit
What the fuck? Seriously, What. The. Fuck? You're going to represent the history of natives as a drunken retirement home? Are you playing stupid or are you really this ignorant?

Ok, assuming you are simply ignorant, I'll put this into context for you, and I'll even use your handy dandy analogy so it's easy to follow along:

Say for instance if Red Deer was invaded by Calgarians and some of the locals murdered and the rest were removed from their homes to the outer limits of town, their jobs taken away, and a treaty signed under the threat of extermination. In exchange for not fighting back they are given some money but are also treated like sub-humans

First thing that happens... without jobs to go to (in this case jobs represent the natural resources that natives used that were hunted/used to extinction by settlers) depression sets in. Most interactions with Calgarians are bitter affairs and often end with Red Deerians arrested. Alcoholism begins

The negatives start to come out soon after that. Calgarians are sick of the Red Deerians causing trouble and being drunk. They decide that it is their duty to God to educate the Red Deerians

Luckily, religion to the rescue! Calgarians go into Red Deer homes and take the children under threat of prison time to the parents.... we all know how this ends. (fucking L O L at completely glossing over this by the way, very classy)

Given enough time, the city would become a crime ridden shit hole... people there would be uneducated, spiritually/mentally/physically broken, addicted from birth to drugs/alcohol, justifiably untrusting of outsiders and unable to give up the free retirement pacakge. How could you ask them to after suffering through so much crap due to something that was so well intentioned. Sound familiar?


Given proper context, would you still say it was the free money that caused the problems?

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Antonito
Given proper context, would you still say it was the free money that caused the problems?

Yes, because it robbed them of their motivation to do things for themselves. The moment they signed the treaties and started getting regular payments was the moment their society started to decline. History shows that a decadent society inevitably falls into decay and self destructs. The reserves just made it happen far faster because they're essentially social pressure cookers.

You're also missing about 150 years of history in your contextual example. 150 years of them making the choice to stay on the reserve and keep taking the money vs going out and making their own way. There is always exceptions too. Some who break out of that society and go their own way, but the vast majority simply have no desire to better themselves. Why would they? They're never forced to grow up, like little kids who get everything, or tantrum when they don't.

I realize this is a simplistic view to a complex problem, but that old cliche is still around for a reason.. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and he'll never go hungry again. Unfortunately, you can't make him go fishing when he knows he just has to sit around and the fish will fall into his fridge without any work at all.

[LollerBrader]

Originally posted by Antonito

Given proper context, would you still say it was the free money that caused the problems?

Whitey just loves to say that shit. I've got white family members that say the most ignorant shit about natives... that same shit... "Lazy... free money".

It's ignorant and oversimplistic.

Good post, antonito.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by codetrap


Yes, because it robbed them of their motivation to do things for themselves. The moment they signed the treaties and started getting regular payments was the moment their society started to decline. History shows that a decadent society inevitably falls into decay and self destructs. The reserves just made it happen far faster because they're essentially social pressure cookers.

You're also missing about 150 years of history in your contextual example. 150 years of them making the choice to stay on the reserve and keep taking the money vs going out and making their own way. There is always exceptions too. Some who break out of that society and go their own way, but the vast majority simply have no desire to better themselves. Why would they? They're never forced to grow up, like little kids who get everything, or tantrum when they don't.

I realize this is a simplistic view to a complex problem, but that old cliche is still around for a reason.. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and he'll never go hungry again. Unfortunately, you can't make him go fishing when he knows he just has to sit around and the fish will fall into his fridge without any work at all.

I didn't miss the 150 years at all:


without jobs to go to (in this case jobs represent the natural resources that natives used that were hunted/used to extinction by settlers) depression sets in. Most interactions with Calgarians are bitter affairs and often end with Red Deerians arrested. Alcoholism begins

I'm quite certain that robbing the natives of the ability to do things for themselves is what robbed them of their motivation to do things for themselves.

That was the whole point of giving out money in the first place. Before there was an unstoppable social/political/economic system put in place like there is now, natives going out and 'making their own way' meant significant and often violent clashes with settlers. It was not a matter of the natives choosing between an honest days work and welfare, it was choosing between a nightmarish life and a dependent life.

Given the option between going to war with a group of people that have you outgunned and want everything you have, or taking a handout, which do you think you'd go with? And how would you feel about being limited to those two choices? Depressed? Pissed off?

[msommers]

Antonio, you have any other links/articles like that FAS one you posted. Working my way through it now and it's pretty comprehensive.

Edit: I should have looked around the site.
http://www.ahf.ca/publications/research-series

[Sugarphreak]

..

[codetrap]

Sugarphreak, of course he's got his panties in a knot. That's what apologists do. They get all upset and angry and point at past wrongs and say we should all feel guilty for stuff that happened before we were born.

Meanwhile, they continue the racism by not allowing the exploration of solutions to the problem under the guise of protecting the specified group.

[msommers]

While everyone has their opinions, which they're entitled to, how many are experts? I'm mean actually, someone who has done research, observes and trys to recify and establish a solution on a daily basis? I'm certainly not and I'll throw this out there but I bet one person on this entire board MIGHT be. Interest and expertise are vastly different.

This is an incredibly complex issue. Blanket statements just make you look foolish.

[R-Audi]

I think a good question of work ethic would be post secondary education among Natives. It would be very interesting to see what % of the population has actually taken advantage of any of the FREE programs that they are given.

I know back 10 years or so ago, there was one fellow in a BC band that I knew, and he was the very first in the whole band in how ever many years that was actually going to University. It blew me away that no one else had taken the opportunity to get free schooling and try to do something with themselves.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Feruk]

There are too many apologists in this thread and too few people actually interested in tackling TODAY'S problems. If you get stuck in what happened 200 years ago, you'll ignore the issues these people are facing today. Shit happened, I don't feel bad about it, some do, but it's time to move forward. The disaster at Attawapiskat is the fault of apologists who think throwing money at a problem will solve it. People should not be living in a place like this where the economy is practically non-existant and the weather conditions are brutal. Look at all the mining towns in Montana that are long abandoned because gold ran out. No money, so people moved on. IF Attawapiskat was anything but a native reserve, people would be long gone. But instead, apologist government policy keeps them there. It's not practical...

[dirtsniffer]

^ I agree with 95% of your post. But, I think Canada should pay people to live above the arctic circle. We need people up there. "use it or lose it'

[Feruk]

Arctic circle? I just googled it; it's at a lower latitude than Edmonton!

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Feruk
Arctic circle? I just googled it; it's at a lower latitude than Edmonton!

makes sense... i would have to be paid handsomely to live there :rofl:

[dirtsniffer]

LOL whups... I figured since there was talk of needing an ice road to get there it was way up hudsons bay... :nut:

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Jesus christ you get your panties in a knot easily sometimes. I was exploring a case study that had parallels specifically based on the aspect of removing merit from an existing way of life.

I thought it as pretty obvious that today's reserves are NOT a druken retirement party, they are for the most part impoverished and pretty crappy places to live.
My apologies, I thought in a thread about natives you'd be giving examples that are actually relevant, not going off on side topics that have no bearing on the case at hand.


Originally posted by Sugarphreak

This doesn't however change the fact that today's problems there stem from dependence on what is intended as positive social support. You are the first to dive in and claim that history defines people instead of looking at what is continuing to define them and possible solutions to that. Are you just writing natives off as hopeless due to the history? I'd like to hear what your solution is to improving conditions on reserves like Attiwapiskat. You have to look at history to understand the full scope of the issue. If the only problem was that they had gotten lazy because of free money, than your ridiculous case study and rhetoric would be valid. However looking at the history (both long ago and recent) reveals a lot of other issues that make integration and stability a significant challenge. That's why my panties are in a knot, you are white washing over every other factor that doesn't justify your desire to cut them off the public dole.

Are they hopeless? No, of course not. But there are factors beyond an unwillingness to work that have to be accounted for

My solution? A long hard slog of mostly voluntary education, opportunities and treatment. This isn't very palatable for most because it represents entire fractions of their tax dollars, but that's what it's going to take. A hardline stance will fail (and has failed miserably before). Complete abandonment will also fail. Obviously incentives would have to be in place to create inertia, but a hard shove isn't going to work.

As for their actual location, it's a catch 22. Where they are is not conducive to stability, but then again neither would be bringing them to a big city. NIMBYism would keep them situated in areas that are as bad or worse than the reserve they are on now


Originally posted by Sugarphreak

It also doesn't change the fact that if the case study you were so offended by were ever actually tested out, it would eventually yield something very similar to how reserves are today with regards to economic activity and social problems. Again, good for your case study. Completely irrelevant, but if you ever go to university for a sociology degree you could write a paper on it. Congrats

Originally posted by Sugarphreak

As for the "classy part" of that case study, the intent was to highlight the fact that anytime you get people who are unable to help themselves, they get taken advantage of. I am not defending it, but it is pretty much an inevitable fact of life. It lacked class because when you couldn't hide it behind a fake layer of irrelevance/ignorance like the rest of the history, you chose to downplay it as little as possible.

[SKR]

Originally posted by Feruk
Arctic circle? I just googled it; it's at a lower latitude than Edmonton!

Did you use retard google? Because regular google says it's at 66 degrees north. Edmonton is 53 degrees north.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Feruk]

Originally posted by SKR


Did you use retard google? Because regular google says it's at 66 degrees north. Edmonton is 53 degrees north.

They seem to line up? :dunno:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=Attawapiskat&hl=en&ll=55.677584,-97.77832&spn=18.674105,39.418945&sll=49.891235,-97.15369&sspn=27.424382,55.107422&vpsrc=6&hq=Attawapiskat&t=m&z=5

[SKR]

Originally posted by Feruk


They seem to line up? :dunno:

Motherfucker, I'm a retard again. I thought you meant that the arctic circle included Edmonton, not that the arctic circle didn't include Attawapiskat

I'm too fucking stupid to post in this thread anymore.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Last time I checked voluntary education has been offered to them since well before me and you were even born... seeings how you are the authority on the way things are, how much longer is this so called "slog" going to take? Lol I'm an expert because I took a small amount of time to read up on history? High standards you got there :wink:

Regardless of what actions are taken, it'll be generations before the effects of what has happened and is happening now are reduced to levels similar to that of the general population.


Originally posted by Sugarphreak

Sorry, where did I call them "lazy" and refer to "free money". I realize it would add a lot of credit to your argument if you could prove there was a racial bias within my posts, but sorry there isn't, so stop trying to twist words in your favor. I never claimed you had a racial bias, although I find it interesting that you associate the words "lazy" and "free money" as being racially charged words..... :poosie:

Yes I know you are not a racist. You hate poor people of all skin colors and nationalities. I'm pretty sure at one point or another you've ranted about every single person on this earth and how they are costing you money


Originally posted by Sugarphreak

My point is, and has been all along that the way the government assistance is being given it sure isn't helping things, and on some level it is making them worse as it is creating debilitating levels of dependency. I've never said this was the only issue, so no, I am not white washing anything.

My focus of this discussion all along has been on what the government is able to do to improve conditions today, not on how we can make it up for past wrong doings. Actually this is in fact the only issue you've discussed. You've acknowledged other issues....after they've been pointed out to you. But really your only contribution to this discussion has been about how government assistance is the issue. And then wrote a case study based on government assistance being the only issue.

In fact, what started our whole argument (which I tried to avoid by asking you to clarify in case this wasn't the your stance) was this:


Originally posted by Antonito
Do you honestly think the problems originated from having a socialist environment? Serious question.

In your mind do you actually see the substance abuse and mental issues stemming from boredom due to free money?

Your reply:


Originally posted by Sugarphreak
Yep, you give a group of people everything they ever need with no work involved in actually earning it and it leads to all kind of social problems. This isn't targeting any specific group, it is just human nature.

Depression is a major problem when people get everything they ever need, you see it among kids who grow up with the silver spoon in the mouth; but look at the bigger picture, why do you think suicide rates are so high in highly socialist countries?
http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/25/why-the-happiest-states-have-the-highest-suicide-rates/

The people who don't fall victim to it are the ones who find themselves a calling in life. Those people tend to withdraw themselves from such systems.
This is why I'm jumping down your throat. I asked a direct question, you gave a direct answer. You are now backtracking in order to cover your ass, but here it is, black and white.

And overall you're still wrong. Yes, in a closed situation where the only issue is "government assistance" (or whatever you want to fucking call it without being able to make it into a racial issue red herring), you would be correct in saying the big problem is the government assistance. HOWEVER, as I've pointed out in a fair amount of detail, the issues stem for other factors, and until those other factors are negated, government assistance is pretty much the only thing keeping many in the community alive, or at the least from spiraling into even worse problems.


Originally posted by Sugarphreak

Most people, are blind to the fact that the hand you hold is the hand that holds you down.

(Bonus points if anybody can name the reference for that last phrase)

Ah good old Everclear

[dirtsniffer]

I think everything that has been done for the natives has been done with good intentions. How do we know what we are doing now to 'help' them now isn't going to be looked down on in the future?

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Antonito
[B] My solution? A long hard slog of mostly voluntary education, opportunities and treatment.

FFS.

That's what we've been doing for about the last two decades.

[Antonito]

Wow, 2 decades? My god, how could HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF PROBLEMS not have been completely erased in 2 decades? Well shit, better just give up :rolleyes:



Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I see "lazy" as being a racially charged word when you apply it to an entire group in a negative way. Also calling assistance instead of "Free Money" trivializes it as a luxury when in fact it is conditional and the source of dependency. If you were genuinely not trying to imply a racial bias on the part of anybody who has a differing opinion I am surprised. Well SURPRISE, I'm not calling you a racist. So lets put this red herring to rest.

Originally posted by Sugarphreak

Like I said before, you've basically written off the current people and apparently even the next couple of generations as well. You assume they are destine to live out the rest of their lives in misery and hope that someday after they die the next generation after this one will magically break free from it.

You will have to forgive me if I think that is totally unacceptable. There's no hope, magic or destiny in any of this other than your idea that they can magically make their problems disappear if they can only find some purpose.

There are a lot of people that are either straight up unemployable or damn near to it. Bottom line. Even with constant counselling and a loooooot of leeway from employers (which they almost never get, I've seen it first hand hundreds of times), people with significant emotional disorders and/or FAS have little to no hope of gaining long term employment. So I'm not "writing these people off", I'm pointing out the reality that a significant effort has to be put in to both accommodate these people as well as find a way to not have these issues spread to future generations. That process happens naturally over time, assuming no one goes in and fucks the whole thing up again like has happened several times

How to do that in a matter of a year or even a decade is beyond my ability to figure out.


Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I am not backtracking on my statement, not even an inch. I stand by the fact that the lack of any kind of economy or merit system is leading to major social problems. When you take away purpose from someone’s life, you take away their future. Also as I said, the ones who are able to break away find their own calling in life, and withdraw from those types of systems. I credit history for putting them into this situation, however I credit assistance without merit for continuing to drive the cycle. You are backtracking a fair amount considering you said it was the root problem, but that's ok

Lets look at the people who do leave the reserves, and how they illustrate what the system actually does to people:

1. Undamaged people who succesfully leave the reserve and integrate into Canadian society. They did not walk off the reserve and then magically decide to change their entire lives. They see an opportunity and take it. The fact that people do leave the reserve shows that it isn't the assistance that is causing the problems. If all their needs were met, why would anyone leave? Do you remember our trip to the reserve? Did it look like a happy time? Would you want to live there if you qualified? Hell no. There's other factors that cause people to stay in reserves, and the people who do succesfully leave are examples of what happens when those factors have been mitigated to some extent.

2. Damaged people who leave the reserve and end up on the streets. This is self explanatory. Take your average teenager who's been living off their parents support, remove them from that support, and they make their way in life (or at least go running back to mommy and daddy). Take someone with crippling issues and remove their support, and they end up sleeping on a street corner, in prison, or buried on a pig farm. That would indicate that socialism is not the root cause of their problems. If it was, they would have simply gotten jobs once they left the reserve.



Here's a good question: How would you introduce a merit system? Given that we agree that removing the assitance would be disastrous, how would it function when money has to be made available regardless of work put in? I honestly can't see any agreeable ways, and any suggestions I make come off as trolling. So...what do you think?

[CUG]

I've rarely disagreed with Levant on a lot of things. Liberals and Socialists hear someone being frank and telling the truth and it tickles the wrong part of their lower gastrointestinal tract.

"He might be crazy, but"... how?
"He's a loudmouth asshole, but"...why?

People scream for accurate reporting of the facts and when it happens, if it comes from someone who isn't speaking with a dippy lisp of high-pitched flamboyancy, they're outraged? If that's you, you can fuck off.

Dressing your content up in a sociologically approved PC gown is as ridiculous as the great clown show at fox news.

Oh, you have a capacious asshole? That's excellent, you probably appreciate accurate news the same as I do with an asshole of indeterminate capacity.

[sillysod]

As horrible as it is to say, the way that Canada handles Natives is brilliant. Reserves, some $$$... just enough to keep them quiet. In other countries people are blowing themselves up and taking movie theaters full of people hostage.

Really no serious violence and although it may cost a little bit to the tax payer, it is significantly less than an all out "race" war.

That being said I have some family that are adopted Natives and although it works out the best for the rest of us when you go on a reserve (esp. ones up North) you can really see just how hopeless the typical familes are there.

Corrupt leadership + gov't support makes it hard for people to leave the reservation and build "normal" lives.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Antonito
Wow, 2 decades? My god, how could HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF PROBLEMS not have been completely erased in 2 decades? Well shit, better just give up :rolleyes:


1. Undamaged people who succesfully leave the reserve and integrate into Canadian society. They did not walk off the reserve and then magically decide to change their entire lives. They see an opportunity and take it. The fact that people do leave the reserve shows that it isn't the assistance that is causing the problems. If all their needs were met, why would anyone leave?

Your point would have a lot more merit if the the reserves were full of natives that were a couple of hundred years old. Treating the 15year old buck differently because his great great grand pappy was murdered over a bottle of firewater in 1876 in a land dispute really doesn't make a helluva lot of sense. Then claiming that 200 years of damage has automagically affects said 15 year old is also pretty weak. His shitty family affects him. His drunken dad sitting around waiting for the next cheque to come so he can get ripped affects him. His squaw mom giving blowjobs for crack affects him. The fact that his great great grandpappy got fucked over doesn't affect him.


Undamaged people who leave the reserve leave BECAUSE their needs aren't being met. They have something inside them that recognizes that being spoonfed pablum isn't the way they want to live. They realize that *assistance* is what is holding them down. No motivation to do anything.. why bother. Sit around and sniff gas because they're bored.

Mayhaps instead of lecturing everyone on why YOU think they leave the reserve, I could introduce you to some people who actually HAVE left the reserve, and you could find out their stories for yourself.

Ideally, if the natives could drag their asses out of this victim mentality and pull their gaze away from all the shit that went down 50-200 years ago, they could start building an actual future. Is it going to happen? Probably not in my lifetime because Canada continues to enable this shitty cycle.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by codetrap


Your point would have a lot more merit if the the reserves were full of natives that were a couple of hundred years old. Treating the 15year old buck differently because his great great grand pappy was murdered over a bottle of firewater in 1876 in a land dispute really doesn't make a helluva lot of sense. Then claiming that 200 years of damage has automagically affects said 15 year old is also pretty weak. His shitty family affects him. His drunken dad sitting around waiting for the next cheque to come so he can get ripped affects him. His squaw mom giving blowjobs for crack affects him. The fact that his great great grandpappy got fucked over doesn't affect him.


Undamaged people who leave the reserve leave BECAUSE their needs aren't being met. They have something inside them that recognizes that being spoonfed pablum isn't the way they want to live. They realize that *assistance* is what is holding them down. No motivation to do anything.. why bother. Sit around and sniff gas because they're bored.

Mayhaps instead of lecturing everyone on why YOU think they leave the reserve, I could introduce you to some people who actually HAVE left the reserve, and you could find out their stories for yourself.

Ideally, if the natives could drag their asses out of this victim mentality and pull their gaze away from all the shit that went down 50-200 years ago, they could start building an actual future. Is it going to happen? Probably not in my lifetime because Canada continues to enable this shitty cycle.


Is it going to happen? Probably not in my lifetime because Canada continues to enable this shitty cycle.

Don't forget Antonito's BRILLIANT solution to which we've already been doing.

Codetrap,

I own a computer repair business and have many native (Indian, aboriginals, first nations???), customers who took advantage of "free everything", and are now living a lifestyle better than I.

My most memorable so far is a male native name "Duce" and his wife (I can't remember her name). Fuck, now that I think about it, "Duce" is the most coolest name ever.

Long story short, they both now work for something like Fisheries Canada (or whatever the fuck the exact governmental title), and are now living a lifestyle better than the ones who paid for it.

[LollerBrader]

Originally posted by Seth1968



Long story short, they both now work for something like Fisheries Canada (or whatever the fuck the exact governmental title), and are now living a lifestyle better than the ones who paid for it.

I applaud your spirit of fairness. The books should balance.

While we're on the topic, how does one determine the fair value of stolen land, molested children, and genocide?

It better be a DARNED good fisheries job, at least.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Antonito]

Originally posted by codetrap


Your point would have a lot more merit if the the reserves were full of natives that were a couple of hundred years old. Treating the 15year old buck differently because his great great grand pappy was murdered over a bottle of firewater in 1876 in a land dispute really doesn't make a helluva lot of sense. Then claiming that 200 years of damage has automagically affects said 15 year old is also pretty weak. His shitty family affects him. His drunken dad sitting around waiting for the next cheque to come so he can get ripped affects him. His squaw mom giving blowjobs for crack affects him. The fact that his great great grandpappy got fucked over doesn't affect him.
Why would there have to be people hundreds of years old for my point to stand? there are still people alive today who got fucked by the government. I mention hundreds of years of shit because it's important to show a consistent pattern. One generation of people being fucked with is far easier to get out of a cycle than people who have been fucked with from generation to generation to generation.

You are correct, their shitty families affect them. That's been my point all along. It's not socialism, it's dysfunction being passed on. What caused that dysfunction? Mostly hundreds of years of being fucked with, which occured up until a generation that has surviving members alive today. If your grandparents were tortured at a residential school, there's a hell of a good chance the cycle of abuse and/or substance abuse stemming from that won't have stopped by the time you came into existence.

This whole great great great grandpappy shit is such a retarded red herring. I have never, ever heard anyone who directly attributes specific personal hardships to one event hundreds of years ago. I do however hear lots of accounts like the one I outlined in the last paragraph.

Originally posted by codetrap

Undamaged people who leave the reserve leave BECAUSE their needs aren't being met. They have something inside them that recognizes that being spoonfed pablum isn't the way they want to live. They realize that *assistance* is what is holding them down. No motivation to do anything.. why bother. Sit around and sniff gas because they're bored. Bingo. I'm not sure why you think this disproves my point. Why would someone who is able to function and make a good living want to live off of barely more than welfare rates in a shitty town? This is why I laugh at people who think that being a native is such a wonderful life. Oh yes, me too please. I want to get entire hundreds of dollars per month and live with alcoholics, prostitutes and drug addicts. It's the Canadian dream!

Originally posted by codetrap

Mayhaps instead of lecturing everyone on why YOU think they leave the reserve, I could introduce you to some people who actually HAVE left the reserve, and you could find out their stories for yourself. Or I could continue to talk to the friends and family I know that are native as well? Meeting new people isn't going to change my opinions, their stories aren't going to be erased from history.

Originally posted by codetrap

Ideally, if the natives could drag their asses out of this victim mentality and pull their gaze away from all the shit that went down 50-200 years ago, they could start building an actual future. Is it going to happen? Probably not in my lifetime because Canada continues to enable this shitty cycle. Yes, yes, if only they could start thinking positively. That's always the only thing that's needed to beat things like addiction and PTSD.

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
I am pretty sure people on this forum have nothing to do with stolen land, molested children and genocide.

So what? The government did. Not the current iteration of the government, but government debts don't get wiped clean every election.

There seems to be a lot of confusion on this concept. You are not supposed to feel guilty or pack your bags and leave. These historical factoids are meant to show why the government pays what it does, and why things are the way they are.

You don't feel guilty? Good! It had nothing to do with you. Juts don't confuse having a clean conscience with then being able to say you don't want your taxes going towards a debt the government owes.

[projekz]

Best thing that can be done for Native people is to integrate them into society and be treated equally as Canadians.

I disagree with babysitting First Nations and pouring money into their downward spiral of growing expectations. They have a better opportunity than most Canadian to make have a successful life with free education and Government handouts and they refuse to use it wisely.

The few Native people that I know have chosen to live off the Reserve and took advantage of the free education given to them to better themselves. They hold a job and pay income tax because they understand that it's a requirement of modern society. That's not to say that they're not proud of their heritage and culture.

As long as we pour money into the Reserves, nothing will change, they'll keep buying big screen TVs and new trucks while their house is falling apart because nobody has to be accountable for anything.

[Canmorite]

Originally posted by Antonito

Juts don't confuse having a clean conscience with then being able to say you don't want your taxes going towards a debt the government owes.

...Forever? I'm not saying it's easy to quantify a 'debt' like this in dollar terms, but where does it end?

[Antonito]

Originally posted by Canmorite


...Forever? I'm not saying it's easy to quantify a 'debt' like this in dollar terms, but where does it end?

Well legally it is supposed to go on forever, but when the day comes that say 90% of natives are integrated and can't trace their problems directly to the government, the payments will most likely stop. Every native I know that has a normal life wants nothing to do with government handouts.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[LollerBrader]

I came across something interesting yesterday.

A friend's mother lives in a housing co-op (whatever the F that is). Apparently it's a little sub-community in Monterey Park that's run by hispanics to provide subsidized housing for hispanics. The government chips in.

Anyhow, what's happened, is that flooring contractors have shown up have ripped her place apart to put in new flooring. They've fucked up the job, which will need to be redone. and are only working on it a couple of hours a day. She didn't actually request this work, which was is being driven by the co-op council who controls the pursestrings.

If you ask me, this is shady as hell. My bullshit-radar tells me that the council is just paying their buddies to do some makework, and probably getting kickbacks in the process. They are reputedly resistant to any kind of oversight from the community.

This really makes me consider the indian thing in a different light.

[rx7_turbo2]

The comments by Antonito highlight exactly what the problem is. He may not realize that but.....

As long as native people in this country believe they are "owed a debt" for injustices of the past then nothing will ever change. Generations of native people will come and go, and the reason restitution of any kind is paid will long be forgotten (if it hasn't already), and the problems will only get worse.

I know some will say "they don't believe they're owed it. Legally they're owed it". Fine agreed, but it doesn't make the system any less broken. And really anyone who uses even an ounce of intelligence knows there is only one solution to the problem, but it's not any easy one so it never gets discussed.