Airlines must advertise true cost of flights incl taxes by Dec 2012

[KrisYYC]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/16/airline-ads-must-advertise-true-cost-of-flights-by-christmas-next-year/


I love how the government is acting like it's sticking up for the little guy by "forcing" the airlines to show the real cost after taxes... What it will really show the public is how bad they get fleeced by the government taxes on air travel.

It's not the airlines we should be mad at here.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by KrisYYC
[url]It's not the airlines we should be mad at here.

Actual tickets are cheap as fuck when you think about it. Taxes, baggage and fuel charges are ridiculous though.

[hurrdurr]

I agree here especially travelling overseas.

$99 to LGW + tax = $600 WTF? lol.

Some of the base fares even within Canada are pretty good but you always have to add another $100 or more for fuel surcharges, airport improvement fees, GST, etc etc.

[wtf im nameless]

I've been saying for years I wish this was the rule for everything you buy, not just airline tickets. Tires, Cars, Airline tickets, Groceries... everything.

[littledan]

but its the airlines that set the fuel surgcharge no? :dunno: usually the taxes are high, but its the fuel surcharges that are completely insane.

so basically air canada will say "hey, we will fly you to london for only 500 bucks! but thats if you want a plane with no engine. if you want a jet with an engine then we have to charge you an extra 450 bucks for fuel... wtf!"

[eblend]

Originally posted by wtf im nameless
I've been saying for years I wish this was the rule for everything you buy, not just airline tickets. Tires, Cars, Airline tickets, Groceries... everything.

This is the case in MANY countries

[cmyden]

I love how the government is acting like it's sticking up for the little guy by "forcing" the airlines to show the real cost after taxes... What it will really show the public is how bad they get fleeced by the government taxes on air travel.

It's not the airlines we should be mad at here.

I disagree. I think there are two separate issues here.

Issue #1) So called 'taxes & fees' advertised by the airlines are essentially a number that they pull out of their ass. There is no real relation to the base fare.

They can manipulate this number at will, as littledan points out above, with arbitrary numbers like 'fuel surcharges'. Air Canada often drops the price of a base fare, increases the 'fuel surcharge' and then advertises a 'sale' (displaying only the base fare of course).

A charter company can advertise a $200 fare to Cuba (but has $400 in 'taxes & fees') while the exact same route is advertised by Westjet for $300 (+$300 in taxes/fees).

The end result is the same, a $600 bill, but the consumer is confused because the only price they see (unless they go through the aggravating process of going all the way to the final checkout page!) is $200 and $300, not $600 and $600.

Unlike buying any other product in the world, the 'after tax' price has *no* relation to the 'before tax' price. It would be like buying a TV at Future Shop for $500, and ending up with a $525 bill and then buying the same TV at Best Buy for $500 and ending up with a $600 bill.

Would that make sense? Of course not. If it were truly a 'tax' the final price would have a mathematical relationship to the advertised price of $500 and would always be 5% more, or $525.

There is no mathematical relationship between the advertised price and the final bill in the world of travel, and this is the source of frustration for the consumer. Europe fixed it, the U.S. fixed, and now we will too, we're just the last to do it.


As for Issue #2, which is that the taxes & fees imposed by the government on our airlines is too high, and that they disallow foreign competition, that's a completely separate issue in my opinion.

If an airline or travel agency wants the public to realize that the final price is high because of taxes imposed by our government, and show them the breakdown of costs, let them do that at checkout, not by confusing the consumer with misleading prices at the start of the buying process.

[chkolny541]

^^100% agree. Im really glad to see this, its super frustrating to have to click through 10 pages to get to the final prices of flights after all the taxs and fees. This'll just simplify things:thumbsup:

[max_boost]

Good.

[KrisYYC]

Originally posted by cmyden


I disagree. I think there are two separate issues here.

Issue #1) So called 'taxes & fees' advertised by the airlines are essentially a number that they pull out of their ass. There is no real relation to the base fare.

They can manipulate this number at will, as littledan points out above, with arbitrary numbers like 'fuel surcharges'. Air Canada often drops the price of a base fare, increases the 'fuel surcharge' and then advertises a 'sale' (displaying only the base fare of course).

A charter company can advertise a $200 fare to Cuba (but has $400 in 'taxes & fees') while the exact same route is advertised by Westjet for $300 (+$300 in taxes/fees).

The end result is the same, a $600 bill, but the consumer is confused because the only price they see (unless they go through the aggravating process of going all the way to the final checkout page!) is $200 and $300, not $600 and $600.

Unlike buying any other product in the world, the 'after tax' price has *no* relation to the 'before tax' price. It would be like buying a TV at Future Shop for $500, and ending up with a $525 bill and then buying the same TV at Best Buy for $500 and ending up with a $600 bill.

Would that make sense? Of course not. If it were truly a 'tax' the final price would have a mathematical relationship to the advertised price of $500 and would always be 5% more, or $525.

There is no mathematical relationship between the advertised price and the final bill in the world of travel, and this is the source of frustration for the consumer. Europe fixed it, the U.S. fixed, and now we will too, we're just the last to do it.


As for Issue #2, which is that the taxes & fees imposed by the government on our airlines is too high, and that they disallow foreign competition, that's a completely separate issue in my opinion.

If an airline or travel agency wants the public to realize that the final price is high because of taxes imposed by our government, and show them the breakdown of costs, let them do that at checkout, not by confusing the consumer with misleading prices at the start of the buying process.


I agree with you on your first point about the fuel surcharge, and that should be more transparent.

I disagree with allowing foreign competition. Flying, relative to costs and adjusted for inflation has never been cheaper. That's why airlines are adding extra bag fees etc. I like the "a la carte" pricing that is becoming more and more common. The less services you use, the less you pay. Makes sense.

[cmyden]

Originally posted by KrisYYC



I agree with you on your first point about the fuel surcharge, and that should be more transparent.

I disagree with allowing foreign competition. Flying, relative to costs and adjusted for inflation has never been cheaper. That's why airlines are adding extra bag fees etc. I like the "a la carte" pricing that is becoming more and more common. The less services you use, the less you pay. Makes sense.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that this was a good idea. I just kind of lumped it in there, because the free-market folks who are against high government taxes on air travel often also complain about foreign carriers not being allowed to compete domestically. I don't think I know enough about it to give a good opinion on what would happen if they were allowed to compete (aka 'cabotage').

Googling around for 'canada open skies agreement' leads to quite a few articles that suggest deregulation has always benefited the consumer.

When the European Union deregulated all their routes, meaning all airlines were allowed to compete on all routes, in any country, competition thrived and low-cost carriers sprung up like crazy. Of course, that doesn't mean the effect would be the same here, with our miniscule population density and vast distances between cities. Whether or not airlines like EasyJet and RyanAir are a good thing, might be another debate.

[TaiChino]

Individual airports dictate taxes and fees not the airlines.

[Dumbass17]

Originally posted by eblend


This is the case in MANY countries
yes and it's AWESOME

[davidI]

I totally agree with the taxes comment. It's tough for Canadian Airlines to be competitive with a company like Emirates where they have no taxes.

Maybe I'm just still bitter about the new visa regs in Dubai because of our protectionist government....

[Feruk]

Yes! This is awesome. I'm so tired of clicking through page after page just to get the final cost. A bif F You to the airline companies! In addition, I would love to see deregulation in the airline sector. If Canadian airlines can't compete with foreign rivals, that's too bad, send them to bancrupcy where they belong. The airline industry and cell phone industry are two big ones that need foreign companies to show the Canadian ones that Canadians don't like being screwed over.


Originally posted by TaiChino
Individual airports dictate taxes and fees not the airlines.
Only a portion.

[davidI]

Originally posted by Feruk
If Canadian airlines can't compete with foreign rivals, that's too bad, send them to bancrupcy where they belong. The airline industry and cell phone industry are two big ones that need foreign companies to show the Canadian ones that Canadians don't like being screwed over.


I agree with you on both counts, except that it is the government to blame for the companies struggling to compete. It's carry over from the national carriers, first of all - but furthermore, it's due to the fees / penalties / regulations that punish the Canadian companies. How can a Canadian airline compete with a foreign rival if it is subject to massive taxes and its competitors aren't?

[Feruk]

I'm not well versed in the topic, but wouldn't you think that if a foreign competitor was to come in, they'd have to follow identical rules and pay identical taxes while operating in Canada?

[davidI]

Originally posted by Feruk
I'm not well versed in the topic, but wouldn't you think that if a foreign competitor was to come in, they'd have to follow identical rules and pay identical taxes while operating in Canada?

In a sense they are, but not really. Airport, Arrival/Departure & security fees, (GST/PST/HST) (GST isn't necessarily payable on international journeys) get tagged to flights originating from Canada. Would you fly direct from Vancouver to Tokyo and pay all of those fees on a $1500 ticket price making it $1800, or take on a quick stop-over in Seattle and transfer to an American Airline or Japanese Airline to save $300? Not to mention that many people drive to Seattle or Buffalo so they can fly American Airlines and avoid the extent of the Airport, Arrival/Departure & security fees Canadian airlines have to contend with in their pricing to begin with.

[davidI]

http://www.chamber.ca/images/uploads/Resolutions/2011/EN/T-Aviation.pdf

Highlights:

Aviation in Canada is plagued by high Operating Costs and excessive taxation when compared to the
United States. The higher costs manifest themselves in higher air fares from Canadian cities when
compared to the U.S.

21% of Canadians say they travel to U.S. airports, where the cost of a ticket can be between half
and three-quarters of the price at home and that number is growing rapidly