This is why I don't play online poker...

[C_Dave45]

No, no "conspiracy theory", or "online poker is rigged" claims here.

I just don't feel a casual user has much chance when your playing against guys like this.

gwDLbceGEY4

No, give me a home game, cold beers, and friendly chat over anything online.

[dj_rice]

HOLY multi-tasker

[J-hop]

Haha no doubt. Takes a lot of brain power to be able to multitask like that, must be a pretty intelligent guy.

I was thinking the other day about online poker. Although counting cards at a casino is difficult to pull off for the average person, at home someone could easily set up excel sheets and/or write some code to work the probabilities and tell you exactly what move to make based on the probabilities.

That is part of why I personally don't enjoy online poker, it feels so disconnected and robotic. It's a way different game than what you play on a friday night with some friends.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[FraserB]

Originally posted by J-hop
I was thinking the other day about online poker. Although counting cards at a casino is difficult to pull off for the average person, at home someone could easily set up excel sheets and/or write some code to work the probabilities and tell you exactly what move to make based on the probabilities.



You can't count cards playing poker lol.:rolleyes:

Probability and stats are easy enough to figure out without a computer program as well. You can't write a program to track someones personal traits while they play. Nothing wrong with tracking stuff like VPIP etc...

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by FraserB



You can't count cards playing poker lol.:rolleyes:

Always funny when anyone mentions poker and cheating, someone always mentions "counting cards" :rofl:

That's for Blackjack, JHop.

[CanmoreOrLess]

You don't stand a chance with this type of player over the longer haul, he has too much data at hand and this is his full time job. Skills honed over the years, I think he is 350K up or so.

http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/team_pokerstars_online/2011/sitting-down-with-team-onlines-kevin-wiz-088213.html

Read the comments on YouTube, he has explained what exactly his set up is all about.

[Merritt]

Holy shiznit

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
You don't stand a chance with this type of player over the longer haul, he has too much data at hand.

http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/team_pokerstars_online/2011/sitting-down-with-team-onlines-kevin-wiz-088213.html

Read the comments on YouTube, he has explained what exactly his set up is all about.

Very interesting read, thanks for the link.

[CanmoreOrLess]

Along the same lines:

2QzhQIOFNhU

[J-hop]

Originally posted by C_Dave45


Always funny when anyone mentions poker and cheating, someone always mentions "counting cards" :rofl:

That's for Blackjack, JHop.

well sorry wrong terminology, but the basic idea is EXACTLY the same with a few added variables. You have cards in your hand and if its texas hold em you have cards on the table that you know. then you have to factor in the number of players on the table (which obviously determines the number of cards left in the deck, and from that you can determine what the probability of you making a certain hand and what the most probable hand the other person can make and by combining these probabilities you can figure out whether it is best to fold or go for the hand.

So semantic BS aside, card counting and what i'm referring to is the exact same concept....

looks like that is what he may be doing on the side there as someone mentioned. I pitty the average guy going into those just using gut feel. Online poker is 10% skill (at the most) and 90% probability. In the long run the person using probabilities and statistics is going to come out over the guy who relies on his "skill" to win.

[CanmoreOrLess]

As far as I can recall (and I do follow the topic), no computer has beat a top NLH player over a set amount of hands....yet.

[FraserB]

There are not even remotely the same. Blackjack has 2 variables, a positive or negative count. Poker odds are constantly changing throughout the hand and each card or bet forces you to recalculate everything from reverse implied odds to pot odds. Knowing how to calculate and use these variables is skill and is not giving you unfair advantage. And lol at poker only being 10% skill.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
As far as I can recall (and I do follow the topic), no computer has beat a top NLH player over a set amount of hands....yet.

yea thats why I still mentioned the "skill". There is still the human factor that is extremely difficult to model although some are getting there, so you have to consider that. But it is quite minimal in online play as opposed to RL.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by FraserB
There are not even remotely the same. Blackjack has 2 variables, a positive or negative count. Poker odds are constantly changing throughout the hand and each card or bet forces you to recalculate everything from reverse implied odds to pot odds. Knowing how to calculate and use these variables is skill and is not giving you unfair advantage. And lol at poker only being 10% skill.

I said online poker, please re-read. Yes the essential concepts between black jack card counting and poker odds are very similar. If you were to right a poker odds program you would start with the basic black jack card counting and introduce further variables as I mentioned... but underlying concepts are very close...

[project240]

What you're referring to is actually not the same at all. A player can figure out odds, but that's easy given you have some mathematics knowledge and can compute in your head.

The part where you are incorrect and therefore completely inaccurate is when you say you can figure out the other player's hand based on your 2 hole cards, plus the 3 on the flop. Figuring out what your opponent has has very very little to do with cards and everything to do with being able to "read" your opponent and knowing their tendencies.

With that being said, obviously if you have the ace of spades in your hand and there are 2 spades on the flop, you can eliminate the nut flush draw from their range, but nothing else.

I used to play online poker alot several years ago. I played up to 16 tables at a time and was quite profitable doing it. I know KOBE is a successful online HU player, so hopefully he'll chime in with his opinions as well.

I agree though, with all of the data logging software, etc available now, it is very tough for the average player to profit long term and that's why I don't play nearly as much as I used to.


Originally posted by J-hop


well sorry wrong terminology, but the basic idea is EXACTLY the same with a few added variables. You have cards in your hand and if its texas hold em you have cards on the table that you know. then you have to factor in the number of players on the table (which obviously determines the number of cards left in the deck, and from that you can determine what the probability of you making a certain hand and what the most probable hand the other person can make and by combining these probabilities you can figure out whether it is best to fold or go for the hand.

So semantic BS aside, card counting and what i'm referring to is the exact same concept....

looks like that is what he may be doing on the side there as someone mentioned. I pitty the average guy going into those just using gut feel. Online poker is 10% skill (at the most) and 90% probability. In the long run the person using probabilities and statistics is going to come out over the guy who relies on his "skill" to win.

[C_Dave45]

God...some people just can't admit when they know absolutely nothing about a topic.

[sexualbanana]

One of the reasons why my online account is really just for fucking around. That and I end up spending more time reading random Wikipedia pages than paying attention to what's going on.

Plus, I have no desire to use programs like Poker Tracker and stuff because I'm too cheap to pay for it and too lazy to want to learn to use it properly.

[project240]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
As far as I can recall (and I do follow the topic), no computer has beat a top NLH player over a set amount of hands....yet.


http://www.pokerlistings.com/phil-laak-beats-champion-poker-robot-in-heads-up-match-952

Very few human/robot matches have taken place that have actually been recorded. However, a perfectly designed program should win in the long run every time due to never making a mathematically incorrect decision.

[TeamBestBud]

Originally posted by FraserB
There are not even remotely the same. Blackjack has 2 variables, a positive or negative count. Poker odds are constantly changing throughout the hand and each card or bet forces you to recalculate everything from reverse implied odds to pot odds. Knowing how to calculate and use these variables is skill and is not giving you unfair advantage. And lol at poker only being 10% skill.

:clap:


Originally posted by C_Dave45
God...some people just can't admit when they know absolutely nothing about a topic.


:werd: :drama:

[J-hop]

Originally posted by project240



http://www.pokerlistings.com/phil-laak-beats-champion-poker-robot-in-heads-up-match-952

Very few human/robot matches have taken place that have actually been recorded. However, a perfectly designed program should win in the long run every time due to never making a mathematically incorrect decision.

Interesting read, Laak beat the superseding poker bot in 2007 but then they revamped it in 2008 and it went on to beat 6 professionals, the biggest issue is the human factor/strategy part which apparently they are getting better and better at modelling:


On July 3-6, 2008, Polaris competed against six human professional poker players in the Second Man-Machine Poker Championship, held in Las Vegas at the 2008 Gaming Life Expo. Polaris defeated the human players with 3 wins, 2 losses and 1 tie. Each of the six sessions was a duplicate match of 500 hands against two different players, resulting in six thousand hands played. Across all six sessions, Polaris won 195 big blinds. The version of Polaris used in the 2008 match was much stronger than the 2007 version, both in the quality of the component strategies and in its ability to learn which component strategy to use.

this actually got me pretty interested in the stats/probabilities behind the game, I love matlab coding so i've started with the blackjack card counter, just about finished coding it, i'll move on to the poker probability program when I have more time and test the simplistic blackjack counter

[black13]

Wait why was online poker banned in US?

[CanmoreOrLess]

Originally posted by J-hop


Interesting read, Laak beat the superseding poker bot in 2007 but then they revamped it in 2008 and it went on to beat 6 professionals, the biggest issue is the human factor/strategy part which apparently they are getting better and better at modelling:



this actually got me pretty interested in the stats/probabilities behind the game, I love matlab coding so i've started with the blackjack card counter, just about finished coding it, i'll move on to the poker probability program when I have more time and test the simplistic blackjack counter

Missed that 2008 match, good to know. As computers are better designed the winner will be a computer over enough (define?) hands. The online gaming sites need to be a step ahead, always the battle and the sites will of course not be ahead in every situation.

In 2000 would anyone have believed a car could park itself? And further, it would be available in 2006 for anyone to buy? Just an example of technology filling the gap.

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by black13
Wait why was online poker banned in US?

Is that a legit question?

The main reason, as far as I know, was the use of online poker and online gambling sites to launder money.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
God...some people just can't admit when they know absolutely nothing about a topic.

No, he's totally right, it's also why good poker players wear ski-masks... :rofl:

[sabad66]

Originally posted by J-hop

You have cards in your hand and if its texas hold em you have cards on the table that you know. then you have to factor in the number of players on the table (which obviously determines the number of cards left in the deck, and from that you can determine what the probability of you making a certain hand and what the most probable hand the other person can make and by combining these probabilities you can figure out whether it is best to fold or go for the hand.

So semantic BS aside, card counting and what i'm referring to is the exact same concept....

You're so out to lunch on this it's ridiculous. How does the number of players at the table affect the probability of making your hand? Note that I didn't say 'probability of having the best hand at the table'.

Like others have said - just accept that you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about and move on with your life. k thx bai

[sexualbanana]

Originally posted by J-hop


well sorry wrong terminology, but the basic idea is EXACTLY the same with a few added variables. You have cards in your hand and if its texas hold em you have cards on the table that you know. then you have to factor in the number of players on the table (which obviously determines the number of cards left in the deck, and from that you can determine what the probability of you making a certain hand and what the most probable hand the other person can make and by combining these probabilities you can figure out whether it is best to fold or go for the hand.


I disagree. The probability of making a hand is the same, regardless of the number of players in a hand/dealt. What changes is the likelihood that your hand could win if all players went to showdown.

[Merritt]

Originally posted by black13
Wait why was online poker banned in US?

Too many people were winning money maybe? :dunno:

Also, I wonder if anyone plays like this on beyond

[FraserB]

Originally posted by black13
Wait why was online poker banned in US?

Cliffs on the indictments


Innocent until proven guilty is the credo of the U.S. justice system. But the Southern District of New York is the strongest arm of the Department of Justice. It doesn't make indictments based on conjecture. It doesn't go all-in on draws. It waits until it has you drawing dead, then shoves. That the court is making these indictments public now means it is certain it has damning evidence.

This isn't likely to lead to a trial on the legal merits of online poker. In fact, it is probable that none of the indictments go to trial. The district attorneys at the Southern District of New York are not people you want to go to trial against. Most of its indictments end in a settlement.

The charges of violating the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act and the operation of an illegal gambling business are suspect because of the gray area regarding the legality of online poker. The money laundering charge also relies on online poker being considered an illegal gambling business. The most serious charge is bank fraud. The indictment alleges that the sites tricked U.S. banks into accepting Internet gambling transactions by disguising the transactions to create the false appearance that they were unrelated to gambling.

Another part of the bank fraud charge and perhaps the most damning part of the indictment is the allegation that defendant Chad Elie and his associates persuaded small, local banks facing financial difficulties to process gambling transactions in return for sizable fees and multimillion dollar investments in the banks. The indictment cites a Sept. 23, 2009, e-mail in which defendant John Campos, a vice chairman and part owner of the SunFirst Bank in St. George, Utah, proposes to accept processing gambling transactions in return for a $10 million investment in the bank, which would give Elie and his partners more than a 30-percent ownership of the bank. The indictment further alleges that Elie and his partners made a $3.4 million initial investment in December of 2009 and that, around that time, the bank began processing payments for PokerStars and Full Tilt that would total about $200 million over the next year or so. Campos and Elie were arrested Friday morning.


Read more: http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/04/a-closer-look-at-online-poker-black-friday-indictment-10224.htm

Violation of the UIGEA and bank fraud are the biggies here.

[Kobe]

Originally posted by J-hop
Haha no doubt. Takes a lot of brain power to be able to multitask like that, must be a pretty intelligent guy.

I was thinking the other day about online poker. Although counting cards at a casino is difficult to pull off for the average person, at home someone could easily set up excel sheets and/or write some code to work the probabilities and tell you exactly what move to make based on the probabilities.

That is part of why I personally don't enjoy online poker, it feels so disconnected and robotic. It's a way different game than what you play on a friday night with some friends.

This information is avaliable to everyone..

"NASH" is for pretty much fold/shove
http://justplaypoker.net/2009/07/nash-equilibrium-sage/

However you can also get SNGwizard and see shove/fold regarding "M" and "BBs"


The thing with NASH and SNG wizards is it is only for shortstack poker, which idealy you never start off playing and it only helps in the end game.





Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
Along the same lines:

2QzhQIOFNhU

Nanonoko is probobly the sickest online cash player in the world.
They have two different styles, Nanonoko is very aggressive and plays Deepstacks poker
while WizardofAAh is very good at shortstacked poker.



Originally posted by Merritt


Too many people were winning money maybe? :dunno:

Also, I wonder if anyone plays like this on beyond

Very not true actually...

http://www.pokertableratings.com/top-countries

The USA is actually DEAD last! (Cash games atleast.. But I'm sure they are dead last overall)


I used to play a lot of SNG tables at once, but there is way to many regulars now and it makes it hard since everyone is just using NASH And SNGWizard, I've moved over to Headsup

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6277/15tables.jpg


Online Pokersetup

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/374489_10150444773735555_502835554_10476051_113771230_n.jpg


And my favorite video.. MUST WATCH

pxC9EiDbRhE


Also with having all those numbers and bullshit and it being unfair, A good friend of mine online "Janekaaa" does not use any numbers, Pokertracker3, or Acehud.. Anything at all and is very sick IMO.. it just makes it so much easier for the long sessions when your brain stops functions at 100%

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/194/janekaaa.jpg

Edit: Interesting article on WizardofAAs as well.. You would not guess

http://www.pokerstarsblog.com/2010/wizardofahhs-a-deadly-disease-500-and-th-071892.html

[max_boost]

So J-hop is a Poker player too? Wow. :rofl: What can't this guy do?!

[CanmoreOrLess]

I have a HU coach, he does not use anything, so brutal. ROI something like plus 10% ROI on 15,000 matches. Some guys just have it and see no need for a HUD. His thing is adapt to the player, wait for an error.... hard to teach though.

Now that the USA is frozen , he does not play online.

[Kobe]

What is your coaches name? or old coachs? Online nick please