TEDTALKS: T. Boone Pickens: Let's transform energy -- with natural gas (VIDEO)

[CanmoreOrLess]

Good idea overall as a bridge solution while we figure out the next best idea. He makes an interesting case for natural gas.

aIFFFGf1ZRE

[sexualbanana]

He had a really good interview on The Daily Show and he's gotten me interested since. He also used to live in Calgary for awhile, but that was a long time ago and completely irrelevant.

[Xtrema]

He has been pushing for quite awhile. Didn't watch the video but I think getting the trucks converted is a great idea. But key is that we need stable prices. Price is low right now but it may screw with business if it doubles tomorrow.

[Ekliptix]

Love that talk.

[finboy]

He tried the same talk with wind until it wasn't financially viable for big returns. I remember he was on the daily show a few years ago saying wind would save us all. If natural gas prices go up, how long until he is back to saying "crude is our savior"

[CanmoreOrLess]

Originally posted by finboy
He tried the same talk with wind until it wasn't financially viable for big returns. I remember he was on the daily show a few years ago saying wind would save us all. If natural gas prices go up, how long until he is back to saying "crude is our savior"

He addresses this in the talk, in the Q/A section. And no I am not giving you the answer.

[finboy]

I watched it, his q&a session was mOre unconvincing than his talk, probably Part of why it is getting rated so poorly on Ted.com

[Euro_Trash]

I will watch this tonight, but just in case he never mentioned it in the video, he is the owner of Clean Energy Fuels which builds natural gas fueling stations. ie. might be biased towards the use of NG

[sputnik]

Originally posted by finboy
I watched it, his q&a session was mOre unconvincing than his talk, probably Part of why it is getting rated so poorly on Ted.com

It is being rated poorly because TED watchers don't like two things.

- FRACing
- Making money

Something that T. Boone Pickens does both of.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Euro_Trash
I will watch this tonight, but just in case he never mentioned it in the video, he is the owner of Clean Energy Fuels which builds natural gas fueling stations. ie. might be biased towards the use of NG

He does mention he owns a lot of stock in NG, and he lost a lot of money in wind power. Sputnik called it right.

I am curious though, how he got his numbers from converting Heavy Duty vehicles. Did it include everything, such as the power loss, and therefore smaller loads/more heavy vehicles required, etc.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
I am curious though, how he got his numbers from converting Heavy Duty vehicles. Did it include everything, such as the power loss, and therefore smaller loads/more heavy vehicles required, etc.

I think that's just a high level selling point. If you read most studies by transit authorities, switching to natural gas never made sense unless carbon credit is in play. NG cost way more than diesel fleets.

[davidI]

Originally posted by Xtrema


I think that's just a high level selling point. If you read most studies by transit authorities, switching to natural gas never made sense unless carbon credit is in play. NG cost way more than diesel fleets.

Links to studies?

Tough to believe that when AECO / Henry Hub is trading at $2, and WTI is $106, that NG won't be cheaper for a long time. Factoring in a 6:1 energy differential, we're then looking at $12 to $106. Gas prices would need to increase nearly 900% to catch up to oil right now.

I understand there are additional costs / energy inefficiencies associated with gas, but 10x? Doubtful.

[Perceptionist]

I think Pickens has some really smart ideas, but he comes off a bit arrogant and condenscending in this presentation.

[Cos]

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[Unknown303]

That was a grat little speach he had there. While he does own stocks etc in NG he does make all the right points too. This whole getting off of fossil fuels shit really isn't going to do any good until someone comes up with a viable solution, and if that isn't happening anytime soon we should really be looking at ways to make due with that fuel sources we have available.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by davidI


Links to studies?

Tough to believe that when AECO / Henry Hub is trading at $2, and WTI is $106, that NG won't be cheaper for a long time. Factoring in a 6:1 energy differential, we're then looking at $12 to $106. Gas prices would need to increase nearly 900% to catch up to oil right now.

I understand there are additional costs / energy inefficiencies associated with gas, but 10x? Doubtful.

What's cheap is CNG. LNG is a refined product like gasoline. There isn't much saving there.

C in CNG is compressed. You'll need a bigger tank and carry more weight. I'm not sure if tech had improved but MTA report showed that CNG buses loses about 2 passenger capacity compared to diesel.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2003/session5/deer_2003_lowell.pdf

Turn to page 15 and 17 for maintenance items. CNG buses cost more to maintain. While I'm sure CNG is way cheaper now than 2003 but cost of hardware is high.

[CanmoreOrLess]

It is a bridge solution as he says, might be good for a few decades; buys some time until we figure out a better solution. Frankly the current climate is just moving money and wars over to the OPEC areas. How's this been working for us as a society so far?

At his age and wealth level, I doubt he cares much about money. Another billion is not going to buy him another week of life and he is smart enough to know this. Read the Wiki bio, he has given a massive amount of money away to universities and hospitals, etc.

[davidI]

Originally posted by Xtrema


What's cheap is CNG. LNG is a refined product like gasoline. There isn't much saving there.

C in CNG is compressed. You'll need a bigger tank and carry more weight. I'm not sure if tech had improved but MTA report showed that CNG buses loses about 2 passenger capacity compared to diesel.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2003/session5/deer_2003_lowell.pdf

Turn to page 15 and 17 for maintenance items. CNG buses cost more to maintain. While I'm sure CNG is way cheaper now than 2003 but cost of hardware is high.

Decade old study?

EnCana shows a reasonable payback period.
EnCana Study (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.encana.com%2Fpdf%2Fnatural-gas%2Ftransportation%2Fng-refuse-industry-fs.pdf&ei=r1lpT-TuFsKViQKhm4HIBQ&usg=AFQjCNELKf_gV-JIKMx_d5dccSpCu9joow)

When I compared WTI to AECO/HH, they're both 'unrefined'. Not sure how you're saying there isn't much saving there. NG doesn't really need to be 'refined' anyways - it can flow through a separator and be compressed into CNG. A lot cheaper than piping crude to a refinery and then trucking out gasoline & diesel. LNG isn't 'refined' either, it's just cooled to -160C.



Cost-effectiveness
TIAX LLC developed a thorough cost comparison report comparing 2010 year heavy-duty commercial diesel and natural gas vehicles. The financial model predicts that the break-even points for CNG for a refuse hauler, transit bus, and short haul heavy-duty truck are $22 barrel, $31 per barrel, and $28 per barrel of crude oil, respectively, in 2010 world oil prices. The world oil price per barrel * has been above $40 in most weeks since early 2005.

Significant co-funding opportunities may be available from a variety of sources to assist consumers with the purchase of NGVs or the construction of CNG fueling stations.

High performance
NGVs often deliver similar horsepower ratings to their diesel and gasoline-powered counterparts. Premium gasoline is 91 octane. Natural gas has an octane rating of approximately 130. This higher octane allows for increased engine compression and combustion efficiency. Because of the clean burning attributes of natural gas, NGVs generally have longer engine life compared to most gasoline-powered vehicles.


Linky (http://www.socalgas.com/innovation/natural-gas-vehicles/policy/fuel-comparison.shtml)


Also, with Shale Gas in the East, NG is now close to populated markets and trucking routes.

[ZenOps]

Natural gas fluctuates too much in price.

Sure it might be $2.15 per MMBTU today, but one shouldn't forget that it was over $15 just a few years ago.

I see NG fueled cars to be exactly the same as propane powered cars. Initially, you will have some people that get on early and get cheap energy - but by the time it starts gaining momentum, the price rises to meet or exceed gasoline making it a near worthless endeavor.

http://www.wheels.ca/Columnists/article/793763

Besides the fact that you have to spend money to double the infrastructure to support multiple dispensers. It would be a massive undertaking, and in the end may not save any money or resources at all.

[davidI]

NG prices were high because there was less supply than demand in the past. Companies were even trying to recover gas from coal seams, an expensive process.

http://www.investorplace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/US-Dry-Gas-Production-vs-Consumption.jpg

Frac technologies and shale gas has changed that. Natural gas reserves in the US are massive now. The only thing I can see forcing the price in the future is increased public backlash against fracing and laws or regulations preventing shale gas from being developed.

I don't necessarily see CNG as being the answer for passenger vehicles, but neither does Pickens. Heavy Trucks & Fleet Vehicles would make a huge difference alone.

[Supa Dexta]

Would be interesting for a crafty person to play around with this at home.. You guys have the luxury of having gas tapped right into all of your homes. NS put their pipeline in and pointed it right towards the USA.

If one could siphon off their home line, and convert their car over it would be pretty slick for a commuter car. May need a compressor setup though, to jam enough in for any sort of range. Maybe arash is interested?? ha

A lot of work and investment to get stations around the country though, so dont drive too far from home.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
Would be interesting for a crafty person to play around with this at home.. You guys have the luxury of having gas tapped right into all of your homes. NS put their pipeline in and pointed it right towards the USA.

If one could siphon off their home line, and convert their car over it would be pretty slick for a commuter car. May need a compressor setup though, to jam enough in for any sort of range. Maybe arash is interested?? ha

A lot of work and investment to get stations around the country though, so dont drive too far from home.

http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-natural-gas/

Although, I don't see the home compression unit for sale anymore. I think Honda want to get out of supporting the compressor.

[ZenOps]

Its worth noting that Natural gas is unusally low in price in North America this year.

Right now its at $87 per thousand cubic meters. Russia natural gas is $438 per thousand cubic meters.

Thats a 5x difference - depending on which side of the globe you are on and the demand, supply and/or whether or not you are currently in a brutal winter.

Suggest to a Russian that they should use natural gas in a car - and they will put you in an insane asylum.

[davidI]

The NG price is unusually low because of the huge production / reserves unleashed through shale gas development. Storage inventories have been record breaking this year.

From Wikipedia:
Russia is the largest oil producer in the world, producing an average of 9.93 million barrels (1,579,000 m3) of oil per day in 2009 for a total of 494.2 million tons.[2] It produces 12% of the world's oil and has a same share in global oil exports.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Top_Oil_Producing_Counties.png

The U.S. is an oil importer. Russia is an exporter.

Russia likes the shady countries in the Middle East because they buy their weapons. (Ask me how I know, just saw a Mig fly by my office in Yemen). US wants to keep money out of terrorist harboring countries.

Russia doesn't give a f*ck about the enviroment. US does.

Apples and oranges.

[Euro_Trash]

Originally posted by Supa Dexta
Would be interesting for a crafty person to play around with this at home.. You guys have the luxury of having gas tapped right into all of your homes. NS put their pipeline in and pointed it right towards the USA.

If one could siphon off their home line, and convert their car over it would be pretty slick for a commuter car. May need a compressor setup though, to jam enough in for any sort of range. Maybe arash is interested?? ha

A lot of work and investment to get stations around the country though, so dont drive too far from home.

Apparently there was a pilot project for this in Ontario - basically a small pump to pressurize a household gas line into a car. Took ~8 hours to fill up the tank. Not sure what the results were

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Euro_Trash


Apparently there was a pilot project for this in Ontario - basically a small pump to pressurize a household gas line into a car. Took ~8 hours to fill up the tank. Not sure what the results were

http://greenmyfleet.com/shop.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=59&category_id=37&vmcchk=1

This is why NG Civic flopped.

You have pay $7000 more for a Civic and then another $5K on a fueling station that take 8hrs to fill the car, has lower miles per fill and another $2000 every ~10 years to re-certify the unit.

For the price of NG Civic and its infrastructure, I can buy a normal Civic and has enough money for fuel for at least 5 years.


Now since we Albertans have a big stake in NG, I think anyway to promote usage is great. Especially at a time when Encana will sell off CEO's shirt on his back to stay alive. But it's just like any alternative fuel source, you really have to hate money in you wallet to switch.

[davidI]

It just takes a properly implemented carbon tax / subsidy program to entice people to switch.

Unfortunately, people are adverse to making changes that require large amounts of up-front capital, even if they pay-off in the long run. That's where I do believe government needs to play a role (even though I'm a believer in free markets, I understand market psychology...)

[Projek01]

Has anyone also looked into how much energy is required to pressurize the NG into the vehicle? Yes NG is a great source of energy but I dont think it makes sense in moving vehicles. Storing the huge amounts of pressure just to get decent miles per tank seems pretty scarry to me. Might as well invest in converting the coal burning power plans to use the excess NG we produce. I guess that doesnt solve the american problem with crude oil. Maybe use electricity to run Chevy Volt.

Has anyone seen the documentry on discovery about Russia's intentions to claim the north pole for the NG reserves. They are doing some crazy stuff.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Projek01
Storing the huge amounts of pressure just to get decent miles per tank seems pretty scarry to me.

And you are right....3600psi

jOf69xHnyrk

If we start using NG for cars, I rather see LPG over CNG.