why was my US satellite thread deleted?

[NEO]

I'm not sure what happen to my last thread but it is gone?

[sputnik]

direct tv is illegal in canada... so therefore discussion about it will not be tolerated on beyond

thats why your post was removed

[rage2]

US satellite systems are illegal in Canada, which is why your thread got deleted.

[NEO]

i don't think it is illegal to buy it.... there is companys in calgary selling it so how could it be illegal?

[403Gemini]

buying outta the back of a van isnt a company silly no matter how many business cards they give you :D

[rage2]

There are people selling stolen cars , doesn't make it legal. There are people selling drugs on the street, doesn't make it legal. Just because people sell it, doesn't mean it's legal!

I quote the Radiocommunications Act, which was confirmed by a Supreme Court Decision in 2002 :

9. (1) No person shall:
(c) decode an encrypted subscription programming signal or encrypted network feed otherwise than under and in accordance with an authorization from the lawful distributor of the signal or feed;

DirecTV is not an authorized lawful distributor of their signal in Canada, therefore, pirating, or even SUBSCRIBING to DirecTV in Canada is illegal.

I don't agree with this law for many reasons, but unfortunately, it IS law, so therefore I will remove any US based satellite sales on our forums.

[403Gemini]

hey rage is that your wedding picture? lol j/k

[redx2nv]

Original Post Removed. (Please read the Forum Rules and Terms of Use (http://forums.beyond.ca/articles.php?action=data&item=1) before posting again, or risk getting banned).

[JAYMEZ]

Easy on the noob guys , i have direct tv and normal cable , to i care lol nope :D

ANYWAAAYS , who cares about TV stuff ! this is a car site god darnit :nut:

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by rage2
There are people selling stolen cars , doesn't make it legal. There are people selling drugs on the street, doesn't make it legal. Just because people sell it, doesn't mean it's legal!

I quote the Radiocommunications Act, which was confirmed by a Supreme Court Decision in 2002 :


DirecTV is not an authorized lawful distributor of their signal in Canada, therefore, pirating, or even SUBSCRIBING to DirecTV in Canada is illegal.

I don't agree with this law for many reasons, but unfortunately, it IS law, so therefore I will remove any US based satellite sales on our forums.

I thought they cannot fully charge anyone because the whole radio thing. As people in canada near US borders can technically listen to an american radio stations which would be considered ilegal, and that it's illegal for US radio stations to broadcast signals in canada.

[NEO]

Okay, everyone take it easy, I wont post about US satellite systems anymore... doesn't mean that we can't voice our opinions on the subject.... I think it sucks! No one should be able to control the air waves if I built my own dish and my own receiver that could snatch signals out of the sky then it is there fault for designing a unsecured way of transmitting entertainment.

"Theft is theft"..... well i go to the bar and breath in other peoples cigarette smoke so lock me up for stealing that guys smoke, and time is money so door-to-door salesmen should be be put in jail for wasting my time. :rolleyes: whatever I'll just stick to the over priced shaw.

[lint]

Originally posted by NEO
Okay, everyone take it easy, I wont post about US satellite systems anymore... doesn't mean that we can't voice our opinions on the subject.... I think it sucks! No one should be able to control the air waves if I built my own dish and my own receiver that could snatch signals out of the sky then it is there fault for designing a unsecured way of transmitting entertainment.

"Theft is theft"..... well i go to the bar and breath in other peoples cigarette smoke so lock me up for stealing that guys smoke, and time is money so door-to-door salesmen should be be put in jail for wasting my time. :rolleyes: whatever I'll just stick to the over priced shaw.

First off, it's not unsecured. That's why you always hear about people getting their cards zapped. That's what the company is doing to try and stem signal theft. And your smoke analogy is crap. If you had a marajuana hot box, and you were chargeing people to come in and bask in the smoky atmosphere, and some schmo decided to pop his head in and take a deep breath without paying, then it would be a better correlation. The difference is that guy in the bar isn't selling his smoke, and when you're sitting around your house, you're not selling your time. A better one would be that you walk over to your neighbours house and run a cable from his outside terminal into your own house, and claim that it's the cable companies fault for not securing its signal transmission.
I disagree with many aspects of the law as well, but just because you don't want to pay what shaw charges, doesn't mean that it's your right to steal a satellite signal.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Hollywood
I thought they cannot fully charge anyone because the whole radio thing. As people in canada near US borders can technically listen to an american radio stations which would be considered ilegal, and that it's illegal for US radio stations to broadcast signals in canada.
Radio isn't encrypted, so it's not covered by 9(1). XM and Sirius radio, however, ARE covered, but RCMP, CRTC doesn't give a crap, because XM and Sirius satellite radio subscriptions does not affect anybody's revenues here.

And in the end, that's all they care about, the guys that pay the CRTC, not the Canadian Citizens that want to watch some really good HBO series that's just not available here.

I guess it's back to watching more SCTV, and The Red Green show to protect my Canadian heritage! :rolleyes:

</bitter_rant>

Here's an interesting fact. There were only 5 countries that ban foreign television broadcasts. China, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and that's right, Canada! Today, there are only 3, China, Vietnam, and Canada. Maybe the US should invade us so we can have some Television Freedom! :)

What's even more interesting, is that the CRTC and the Radio Communications Act infringes on the Canadian Charter of rights.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/#libertes


2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;


Last I heard, the case is gonna be in the Supreme court in the future. Let's hope one day we can all subscribe to DirecTV and watch what we wanna watch.

[fast95pony]

What we need is an end to the TV cartel. Shaw and Rogers need some real competition to bring their prices down.

Here's a question. We can listen to radio stations around the world on line .Why not TV stations ?? Technology moving as fast as it does ,will this happen ?? (CRTC notwithstanding ).

[Akagi Redsuns]

The CRTC sucks...they are the one that dictates the shows and what content we see. What kind of crap is that? Even Rogers and Shaw are constrained on what networks they can broadcast.

[-250-]

then why is direcTV advertised on CBC and CTV?

those are canadian arent they?

[googe]

Originally posted by Hollywood


I thought they cannot fully charge anyone because the whole radio thing. As people in canada near US borders can technically listen to an american radio stations which would be considered ilegal, and that it's illegal for US radio stations to broadcast signals in canada.

pretty sure this is right. my understanding is that our laws do not protect foreign signals, and thats the loophole everyone is exploiting. you can find these systems in the newspaper and everything, alot of people make a living off of it and dont get legal trouble.

[Big_C_racing]

I'm pretty sure that it is legal to SELL american satellite sytems in Canada but it is not legal to use them. At least this is how it was about a half year ago. As soon as the signal is bein pirated, then it becomes illegal.

[rage2]

Originally posted by googe
pretty sure this is right. my understanding is that our laws do not protect foreign signals, and thats the loophole everyone is exploiting. you can find these systems in the newspaper and everything, alot of people make a living off of it and dont get legal trouble.
Well it's all up to interpretation of the Radio Communications Act, specifically 9(1)(c) that I quoted. BC and Ontario judges ruled it was not illegal for US based subscriptions, because you got permission from a lawful distributor. Supreme court ruled it ILLEGAL, because DirecTV is NOT a lawful distributor in Canada. Pirate cards have *ALWAYS* been illegal. It was the subscriptions that people were fighting for. Today, subscriptions, or pirate cards to US Systems are ILLEGAL.

Originally posted by Big_C_racing
I'm pretty sure that it is legal to SELL american satellite sytems in Canada but it is not legal to use them. At least this is how it was about a half year ago. As soon as the signal is bein pirated, then it becomes illegal.
Yes, that was until the Supreme Court interpretation and ruling of Radio Communications Act section 9(1)(c) in 2002.

[googe]

Originally posted by rage2

Well it's all up to interpretation of the Radio Communications Act, specifically 9(1)(c) that I quoted. BC and Ontario judges ruled it was not illegal for US based subscriptions, because you got permission from a lawful distributor. Supreme court ruled it ILLEGAL, because DirecTV is NOT a lawful distributor in Canada. Pirate cards have *ALWAYS* been illegal. It was the subscriptions that people were fighting for. Today, subscriptions, or pirate cards to US Systems are ILLEGAL.

Yes, that was until the Supreme Court interpretation and ruling of Radio Communications Act section 9(1)(c) in 2002.

No, I know part of this is untrue, it has been illegal to pay for the signals, but not illegal to descramble them, because it was ruled that any unauthorized foreign signal on our airwaves (ie, DirecTV, or any american satellite provider) is public domain.

This is why there is serious lobbying by canadian satellite providers to get a law passed to rule this illegal as well. No one wants to pay for canadian service if they can get american service free and legally. If it was illegal, they wouldnt be fighting for that law.

Go grab a news paper or a bargain finder, these things are everywhere being sold by people with a business license :)

edit:
a good dissection...



Let me pick apart 9c:

"subscription programming signal"

Is (verbatim):

"Radiocommunication that is intended for reception directly or indirectly by the public in Canada or elsewhere on payment of a subscription fee or other charge"

This signal is in no way inteded directly or indirectly for Canadians to enjoy in any way shape or fashion. The elsewhere part is somewhat enforceable however, so we need to examine the rest of the sentence.

"network feed"
Is a feed distributed to affiliates (DirecTV cannot do this legally) or distributed by a lawful distributor (which DirecTV is not) to a programming undertaking.

"lawful distributor"
Their own definition states that the company must have the lawful right to transmit and authorize decoding in this country (DirecTV does not).

Without a lawful distributor I think the sentence is nullified. There is no one to regulate the signal, therefore the signal is public domain.

For the heck of it let's see section 4:

We are allowed to have the DirecTV equipment because 4b lets us posess equipment that isn't used for receiving signals of a distribution undertaking. DirecTV is not legally a distribution undertaking, so we may have the equipment.

DirecTV, I believe, for some very strange reason, had their equipment DOC certified (it is supposed to be written somewhere in the manual and it appears in some DirecTV manuals) so the equipment is certified for use here.

Therefore Section 9c does not apply and we can own the equipment. Ask any judge. Infact, ask the one in Quebec that ruled the illicit American transmissions are Public Domain. :-)

You'll also note DirecTV violates section 9b because they use bandwidth in our country (thereby obstructing our use of it) that we do not authorize them to have.

youre right about the judge ruling it is illegal for us to subscribe to this, but its never been illegal to pirate it. these signals are not authorized to occupy our bandwidth, which we could be using unobstructed for other purposes, and they are not allowed to be sold in our country. because they are here and cant be sold, they have no fair market value. because they are worth nothing, you cant be 'stealing' it. it is quite gray sounding, but the current state of the law makes it technically legal to pirate a foreign signal.

[rage2]

Originally posted by googe
No, I know part of this is untrue, it has been illegal to pay for the signals, but not illegal to descramble them, because it was ruled that any unauthorized foreign signal on our airwaves (ie, DirecTV, or any american satellite provider) is public domain.
hehe you really have your facts wrong, or being misled by your satellite dealer :).

For some facts regarding US Satellite services, and what's being enforced, see:

http://www.casst-ccvss.ca/english/faq.htm

The funny thing is #3, you're allowed to import all the stuff, they'll tax you on it, but if you sell it, wham, you're going to get fined and charged :).

#5 is funny too. Basically, it's illegal so ExpressVu can create jobs and not lose money! Way to look out for the consumer! :)

#7 describes pirate cards. Always been illegal, that's the black market. Grey market has always been US based subscriptions.

#11 IMO is a joke. There is no benefit for launching canadian DTH satellites. The grey market is gone, so we're now stuck with an inferior service, unless you want to break the law. Trust me, once you've had MTV, HBO, etc. it's tough to live without it.

Originally posted by googe

Go grab a news paper or a bargain finder, these things are everywhere being sold by people with a business license :)
Yep, and if ExpressVu decide to push the RCMP to do raids here, those people will be in a lot of trouble. Serious fines, serious jail times. Back in the day, people sold cable descramblers in the Bargain Finder too. Businesses with business licenses. In Vancouver, you can buy weed, smoke weed in Marijuana bars with business licenses. Still doesn't make it legal.

BTW - there are monthly raids in ontario and quebec... luckily for the folks in the bargain finder, the canadian government/RCMP/Industry Canada doesn't give a shit about the west... so I don't think there has been raids here.

Info on raids and charges:

http://www.casst-ccvss.ca/index.htm#6

[mo_virgin]

Originally posted by Hollywood


I thought they cannot fully charge anyone because the whole radio thing. As people in canada near US borders can technically listen to an american radio stations which would be considered ilegal, and that it's illegal for US radio stations to broadcast signals in canada.

True That man... I am here at Uvictoria and we get ALL the good seatle stations.

[Hollywood]

I've stirred it up again!:thumbsup:

[NEO]

Originally posted by Big_C_racing
I'm pretty sure that it is legal to SELL american satellite sytems in Canada but it is not legal to use them. At least this is how it was about a half year ago. As soon as the signal is bein pirated, then it becomes illegal.

You can not be prosecuted buy the US while in canada, I would like to see the Canadian law that states that you can not steal from the US. It's like robbing a bank in the US and then crossing the boarder to mexico.... different laws are in effect.

[rage2]

Originally posted by NEO
You can not be prosecuted buy the US while in canada, I would like to see the Canadian law that states that you can not steal from the US. It's like robbing a bank in the US and then crossing the boarder to mexico.... different laws are in effect.
Read the entire thread... here's a pointer, scroll back up to this post:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&postid=471281#post471281

You're breaking a Canadian law for decoding unauthorized (DirecTV is not CRTC/Canadian Authorized) television. So unless you have authorization from a lawful distributor (expressvu/starchoice) to subscribe to DirecTV, you're breaking the law, regardless if it's a subscription or a pirate card.

That's how the Supreme Court of Canada sees it. That's how the Supreme Court of Canada ruled on it, and that's how the RCMP are enforcing it.

[rage2]

Originally posted by rage2
http://www.casst-ccvss.ca/english/faq.htm

The funny thing is #3, you're allowed to import all the stuff, they'll tax you on it, but if you sell it, wham, you're going to get fined and charged :).
A little clarification on this one...

According to the Radio Communications Act, it's actually ILLEGAL to bring in US equipment from the US.


10. (1) Every person who
(b) without lawful excuse, manufactures, imports, distributes, leases, offers for sale, sells, installs, modifies, operates or possesses any equipment or device, or any component thereof, under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable inference that the equipment, device or component has been used, or is or was intended to be used, for the purpose of contravening section 9

But, customs allows it and even taxes you on it. I guess all they care about is making money haha.

http://www.casst-ccvss.ca/english/faq.htm#3

That's crazy :nut:

[Hollywood]

Originally posted by rage2
But, customs allows it and even taxes you on it. I guess all they care about is making money haha.

http://www.casst-ccvss.ca/english/faq.htm#3

That's crazy :nut:

It's just like the hooker thing. It's not illegal to be a hooker. But it is illegal to buy sex from a hooker. This is so that the government by law can tax hookers on there income.

Canadian gov/laws are annoying.

[NEO]

Originally posted by rage2

Read the entire thread... here's a pointer, scroll back up to this post:
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&amp;postid=471281#post471281

You're breaking a Canadian law for decoding unauthorized (DirecTV is not CRTC/Canadian Authorized) television. So unless you have authorization from a lawful distributor (expressvu/starchoice) to subscribe to DirecTV, you're breaking the law, regardless if it's a subscription or a pirate card.

That's how the Supreme Court of Canada sees it. That's how the Supreme Court of Canada ruled on it, and that's how the RCMP are enforcing it.

I have read the entire thread.... I started it.
you mean this right....
9. (1) No person shall:
(c) decode an encrypted subscription programming signal or encrypted network feed otherwise than under and in accordance with an authorization from the lawful distributor of the signal or feed;

But it reads "subscription programming signal" so it is debateable because you can't subscribe to the programming (in canada) without Direct T.V getting in shit because they don't have the right send the signal to canada.
All I'm saying is with a good enough Layer you can get away with just about anything. There are loop holes in all the laws and you have to be proven guilty before you can be charged.

[rage2]

Originally posted by NEO
I have read the entire thread.... I started it.
you mean this right....
9. (1) No person shall:
(c) decode an encrypted subscription programming signal or encrypted network feed otherwise than under and in accordance with an authorization from the lawful distributor of the signal or feed;

But it reads &quot;subscription programming signal&quot; so it is debateable because you can't subscribe to the programming (in canada) without Direct T.V getting in shit because they don't have the right send the signal to canada.
All I'm saying is with a good enough Layer you can get away with just about anything. There are loop holes in all the laws and you have to be proven guilty before you can be charged.
Notice the "or encrypted network feed". The DirecTV signal falls under encrypted network feed.

This was the loophole that people used becuase the grey market (subscriptions) were authorized by a lawful distributor in the United States. The BC and Ontario courts actually ruled in the grey market's favor, meaning it was legal to subscribe to US satellite TV. It was the Canadian Supreme Court in 2002 that rules that DirecTV is NOT a lawful distributor IN CANADA, therefore making it completely illegal.

So, if you get charged for it, and you go to court, the prosecutor will reference the 2002 supreme court decision, and your gonna be guilty. They have not gone after end users yet, but they will eventually if ExpressVu doesn't see a profit or sees earning slip.