Const. Brant Derrick is a LIAR

[Modelexis]

http://metronews.ca/news/canada/120563/police-who-lie-how-officers-thwart-justice-with-false-testimony/


Some lies, though, cannot escape the spotlight, especially when video or audio tells the unadulterated truth.

Video shot by civilian eyewitnesses exposed the lies of two Calgary officers who beat Jason Arkinstall while he was handcuffed and then charged him with obstructing, threatening and assaulting an officer.

The video, shot after 3 a.m. on Aug. 31, 2008, the weekend of a tattoo convention, shows Const. Brant Derrick smacking Arkinstall in the back of his head and throwing him head first and onto his stomach in a police van’s rear caged compartment. Arkinstall was thrown with such force his flailing legs almost hit the van roof. “In an obvious burst of anger,” Judge Terry Semenuk said, Derrick slammed the van doors on Arkinstall’s leg.

Semenuk acquitted Arkinstall of threatening Derrick. The other two charges were dropped before trial. The officers, the judge said, were “unreliable and not credible.”

Judge Semenuk was understating.

In court, before Derrick knew the video existed, Arkinstall’s lawyer asked him if he struck Arkinstall before throwing him into the van and slamming the van door.

Derrick: “It didn’t happen.”

Lawyer: “Didn’t happen?”

Derrick: “No.”

Lawyer: “You’re sure of that.”

Derrick: “Yes. I’m sure of that.”


Over 100 cases recorded since 2005 where police have misled the courts.


• Some of the words judges used to describe police evidence and testimony were “lie,” “fabricate,” “evasive,” “absurd,” “ridiculous,” “subversive,” “disturbing” and “pure fiction.”

When you give a group of humans the legal obligation to hold a monopoly of force you quickly find out that there is really no difference between someone in a tshirt and someone wearing a hat with a badge on it. None of us are exempt from the abuse of power, yet we continue to ignore this and hand over our freedoms to the most powerful and most corrupt in society. Not all police are consciously corrupt or as power hungry at these people but we really need to realize that there aren't enough good cops to make up for the actions of the bad cops, nor can the 'good' cops do anything to stop the actions of their brothers and sisters when they abuse their power.

If the decent cops in society actively patrolled their own ranks we would have an amazing police force, but obviously this is fantasy. How can we expect police to keep the streets safe when they cannot keep their own brothers and sisters from committing crimes in the chair next to them on the jury stand? How can we task them with protecting us when they cannot even create a safe environment within their own ranks?

Police officers are supposed to be the finest humans beings the city has to offer, so they should be infinitely easier to patrol and monitor for criminal behavior. These people should be easily weeded out, but instead the artificial family of the police station creates a wing of ultimate protection for any officer that breaks the law.

What are the police doing to attempt to restore the trust of society that has vanished into a sea of corruption and lies, backed by hostility for speaking a bad word about the department based on a small minority of its members.

Some of these people lie under oath, and go out the next day and stop you in your personal car and hand you a ticket for holding a cell phone.

If I cannot be trusted to carry a gun in public because I have the capability for violence and losing my temper and making bad judgement calls, so should the police acknowledge that they are not some super human race that is completely exempt from these basic human flaws.
A very telling piece of information in this regard is the fact that retired police officers must hand in their guns and are then bound by the same gun laws as the rest of the Canadian public, which a day prior they had opposite rights of gun ownership and use.

[Blue]

good, fuck the cops

[Danny Meehan]

.
Many would prefer to close their eyes at what the cops did / after they would see a picture of the culprit

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by Modelexis
A very telling piece of information in this regard is the fact that retired police officers must hand in their guns and are then bound by the same gun laws as the rest of the Canadian public, which a day prior they had opposite rights of gun ownership and use.

The rest of your post contains some interesting takes on reality. But this is just utter horse crap. Police officers are governed by the same firearms laws as the rest of Canadian Citizens EVERY DAY. They are granted an ATC while performing their duties, and due to the nature of being a police officer, they are basically tasked as being constantly on duty (if an officer sees something while he is "off duty" he is still expected to assisst as if he were "on duty", while this doesn't include traffic stops, there is still the potential for them to have to be acting as an officer at any given time, and thus they can carry a firearm with them even when off duty)

They're no more exempt from firearms laws than an armored car company employee, their duty just extends into their personal life.

While they're "off duty" they are governed by the same storage laws as every firearms owner. If a firearm is not on their person it must be unloaded and stored in accordance with the Canada Firearms Act.

Also as an aside to that, they're not handing in "their" guns. The guns are owned by CPS, they're returning them.

[swak]

Go4Long,
I think what he's saying is having a gun strapped to your belt goes to some guys heads... Which you cannot deny that it does. However, at the same time, their guns are crucial for officer/public safety.
I fully condone police having guns, and i fully condone everything para-military for the most part - However, just pointing out the obvious

[Go4Long]

my point was just that despite how he worded it, the Police are governed by the firearms act. They are not entitled to "the opposite rights of gun ownership and use" not that they own their duty issues anyway. It's rhetoric like this that makes people not understand the laws in the first place.

Don't get me wrong...I think Canadian firearms laws are fuckin rediculous, but I'm not about to tell people that they're wrong because of something that is simply not true, there's more than enough wrong with the way the firearms laws are written and enforced without making shit up.

[J-hop]

Man, modelexis I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I've noticed lately that every one of your current events posts/replies feels like an article I'd read in the national enquirer.

With topics like this I want the real picture to judge for myself not an artists rendering...

[HuMz]

Originally posted by Blue
good, fuck the cops

+1, at least a good number of them

[89s1]

Originally posted by Blue
good, fuck the cops

Fuck liars, cops or not.

Crooked people are pieces of shit.

[Rat Fink]

.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Rat Fink
Is this the same arkinstall who is tied to the hells angels? If it is then we should totally stick up for his rights and bleed through our hearts for him

The problem with that line of thought is if it isn't ok for that kind of thing to happen to you, or your sister/dad/etc., then society cannot allow it to be ok for it to happen to anyone.

It's like anything else in life, you allow people an "inch"and soon it will be stretched into a mile.

[zarge]

Originally posted by Modelexis
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/120563/police-who-lie-how-officers-thwart-justice-with-false-testimony/




Over 100 cases recorded since 2005 where police have misled the courts.



When you give a group of humans the legal obligation to hold a monopoly of force you quickly find out that there is really no difference between someone in a tshirt and someone wearing a hat with a badge on it. None of us are exempt from the abuse of power, yet we continue to ignore this and hand over our freedoms to the most powerful and most corrupt in society. Not all police are consciously corrupt or as power hungry at these people but we really need to realize that there aren't enough good cops to make up for the actions of the bad cops, nor can the 'good' cops do anything to stop the actions of their brothers and sisters when they abuse their power.

If the decent cops in society actively patrolled their own ranks we would have an amazing police force, but obviously this is fantasy. How can we expect police to keep the streets safe when they cannot keep their own brothers and sisters from committing crimes in the chair next to them on the jury stand? How can we task them with protecting us when they cannot even create a safe environment within their own ranks?

Police officers are supposed to be the finest humans beings the city has to offer, so they should be infinitely easier to patrol and monitor for criminal behavior. These people should be easily weeded out, but instead the artificial family of the police station creates a wing of ultimate protection for any officer that breaks the law.

What are the police doing to attempt to restore the trust of society that has vanished into a sea of corruption and lies, backed by hostility for speaking a bad word about the department based on a small minority of its members.

Some of these people lie under oath, and go out the next day and stop you in your personal car and hand you a ticket for holding a cell phone.

If I cannot be trusted to carry a gun in public because I have the capability for violence and losing my temper and making bad judgement calls, so should the police acknowledge that they are not some super human race that is completely exempt from these basic human flaws.
A very telling piece of information in this regard is the fact that retired police officers must hand in their guns and are then bound by the same gun laws as the rest of the Canadian public, which a day prior they had opposite rights of gun ownership and use.

I like to go with 50% of humans are dishonest pieces of shit and 50% want to make their own way/make their life what they want. So.. that goes the same for the police force. There is no way to test how stinky of a shit a human is. Give up on it, make the best of your life and hope everyday you don't run into that slimy mustard cum smelling cop who writes you a ticket for stopping 3cms over the stop line.

[smokedog]

Police State

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by smokedog
Police State

Your contribution to this thread is mind blowing... :rolleyes:

[revelations]

Originally posted by Rat Fink
Is this the same arkinstall who is tied to the hells angels? If it is then we should totally stick up for his rights and bleed through our hearts for him

:werd:

These winners can get all the "help" from the CPS they need.

99.999999% of law abiding citizens will never see the bottom of a police boot unless they give them a reason to.

[revelations]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


The problem with that line of thought is if it isn't ok for that kind of thing to happen to you, or your sister/dad/etc., then society cannot allow it to be ok for it to happen to anyone.

It's like anything else in life, you allow people an "inch"and soon it will be stretched into a mile.

Its too bad police history isnt more publically know.

Before the charter of rights in '82, the RCMP used to have brawls with gang members. Just for kicks.

We've come a long way as far as our rights, but if this stuff happens to the worst of the worst - I dont think anyone cares - except if my tax dollars have to pay for the rejects' medical bills.... :D

[Rat Fink]

.

[K3RMiTdot]

Originally posted by 89s1


Fuck liars, cops or not.

Crooked people are pieces of shit.

+1

[M.alex]

Originally posted by revelations


:werd:

These winners can get all the "help" from the CPS they need.

99.999999% of law abiding citizens will never see the bottom of a police boot unless they give them a reason to.

:werd:

[m10-power]

This is why my cars will never be driven in BC, couldnt imagine running into a dishonest cop that siezes my car for speeding...legalized government theft
I read something that the Alberta PC's were studying the same law for here...

[bastardchild]

Originally posted by 89s1


Fuck liars, cops or not.

Crooked people are pieces of shit.

Yea its certainly the people. Most of the cops I have dealt with were unfair but I'm sure there are some decent ones out there. People lie, steal & cheat, its not only cops.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by bastardchild

Most of the cops I have dealt with were unfair but I'm sure there are some decent ones out there.

Really? most of the cops you've talked to were unfair?

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Go4Long


Really? most of the cops you've talked to were unfair?

It depends in what manner you are dealing with them. Particular departments have earned that type of response from people through their own actions.

If bastardchild is referring exclusively to traffic enforcement then yes, most are unfair. It's a dead horse debate that they value revenue over ACTUAL common sense and safety the majority of the time. I've had the same experience through the years (I haven't had a ticket in about 10 years mind you) and I have a very low opinion of traffic enforcement personnel.

Other departments however, have given me an absolute opposite experience. I have dealt with several cops, as recently as about 2 years ago, in dealing with harassment/threats/criminal charges (not filed against me lol), family estate disputes that required police intervention, a 911 response call, etc. My experience with those officers was nothing short of exemplary, with the exception of one RCMP asshat but after I tore a strip off his commanding officer regarding his "officiating style" that situation was rectified professionally. They were all, even the asshat, truly engaged in the tasks at hand and had genuine concern in achieving the best possible outcomes. Accordingly, I have a very high opinion of a lot of those officers.

Your point of view is relative to your scope of experience. If you've only dealt with traffic enforcement then yes, most of them are unfair chumps.

Back to topic - That being said, I stand by my opinion that behaviour like this CANNOT be tolerated, regardless the type of person they are dealing with.

[clem24]

Originally posted by m10-power
This is why my cars will never be driven in BC, couldnt imagine running into a dishonest cop that siezes my car for speeding...legalized government theft

I don't get it.. Don't break the law, and don't drive like a douche, and your car won't be confiscated. Their confiscation law appears to be working.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE

That being said, I stand by my opinion that behaviour like this CANNOT be tolerated, regardless the type of person they are dealing with.

I strongly second that.

I don't care how big of a POS they are or what they've done; the fact is, they have rights, we have responsibilities, and there is an expectation that we respect both of those. Ethical compromises and dishonesty are not acceptable, ever.

Whether the use of force was justified or not, I can't comment. I don't know. But the fact remains - lying about it shouldn't, and simply cannot be tolerated. I don't want to work with people like that, and no one I work with does either. Deceit isn't tolerated in law enforcement and if this proves to be the case, will be dealt with.

I've inadvertently made some poor notes or haven't been able to recall some things because of time and poor memory, and I know in a lot of the cases that this article refers to that has actually proven to be the case and isn't the epidemic they are trying to make it out to be. Don't let this fear mongering fool you.

[Go4Long]

My interactions with police officers have mostly been positive ones. Including when I got pulled over for having blue signal lights (at the "street races") and was deliberately making fun of the laws I was being pulled over for.

officer: "are you aware that blue lights are reserved for planes and boats?"
me: "if a person sees my signal light and thinks it's a boat coming at them I think my signal lights are the least of their problems...come on, they sell them at canadian tire"
officer: "they sell christmas lights at canadian tire, do you think you should put them on your car?"
me: "I dunno, do they fit in a turn indicator bulb socket?"

his partner was laughing on the other side of the car, in the end of it all though I changed the signal lights out, he gave me a $57 ticket. Then informed me I had a warrant out for my arrest, but he didn't want to take me in for it (unpaid c-train ticket), so I should take care of it as soon as possible. All in all an amusing circumstance.

Also once got accused of running from the police on my bike, I laughed at him and informed him that we were standing on the edge of a WIDE open road with nearly no corners, and if I had been running we wouldn't have been having the discussion (he'd pulled me over for wheelying, which I deserved a ticket for)

As a general rule, every time I've ever had to deal with a traffic officer I've done something to earn the meeting, and they've still been more than civil.

[Kloubek]

Give a group of people a position of authority, and I guarantee you that some will abuse that authority. It is animal nature to try to dominate and self-preserve.

You'd think that we, as humans, would be advanced enough as a whole to do what is best for others... but that is not always the case. A politician may use their position to get what they want - and some of them even step over the boundry into scandal. A teacher tells the kids how they want them to act - and some take discipline too far. (My grade 4 teacher used to slash my hand with a metre stick because she thought being left handed was evil). And similarily, some cops step over the line and let their own emotions and holier-than-thou attitude get the better of them.

In my teens and 20's I tended to drive like a douche and got pulled over a lot for it. But I was also pulled over a lot for doing nothing at all... just because the cops saw a young guy in a sporty car and wanted to prove a point.

Those police members who are being unfair is unacceptable, and I think there should be more processes in place to make police more accountable for their actions in an effort to reduce instances such as this. However - to paint all officers with this same brush like the most intellectual response of "Fuck the cops" is exceptionally childish and close minded. I wonder if the same thoughts would prevail when a cop risks his/her life to save them from a burning vehicle.

I've found in the past that when a cop was a dick to me, I was *usually* giving him attitude first. (Not always - but usually) I've found the experiences I've had with police since I've smartened up have also proven most to be quite civil.

[bubbley]

these cops should have been let go by the force but I'm sure that didn't happen :thumbsdow

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by phil98z24
Don't let this fear mongering fool you.
Nice touch.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Go4Long
My interactions with police officers have mostly been positive ones.........snip........As a general rule, every time I've ever had to deal with a traffic officer I've done something to earn the meeting, and they've still been more than civil.

Well there you go, that's YOUR experience and that's great. No one is calling you out on it or saying you're wrong though. ;)

If I would have had experiences like that in my dealings then I wouldn't have the opinion I do.

And I've always been polite, courteous and cooperative whether I'm in the wrong or not on traffic stops....I just seem to only have ever interacted with the rude, arrogant prick traffic cop.

[m10-power]

Originally posted by clem24


I don't get it.. Don't break the law, and don't drive like a douche, and your car won't be confiscated. Their confiscation law appears to be working.

Did you not grasp the context of this thread? :dunno:

Never, ever should personal property be seized for any traffic offence, especially upon one officers "judgement" (word was carefully chosen)

[Stealth22]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
Well there you go, that's YOUR experience and that's great. No one is calling you out on it or saying you're wrong though. ;)

If I would have had experiences like that in my dealings then I wouldn't have the opinion I do.

And I've always been polite, courteous and cooperative whether I'm in the wrong or not on traffic stops....I just seem to only have ever interacted with the rude, arrogant prick traffic cop. Same here. I've been pulled over three times, twice by the CPS Traffic Unit, and once by the RCMP.

I was in the wrong all three times, but I was always courteous and cooperative. Unfortunately that didn't stop any of the three officers from writing me up, and while I didn't like it, I understood that they were doing their job. The two CPS traffic constables were polite, but still pricks, and had no interest in hearing what I had to say. Again, I didn't like it, but I understood it.

The RCMP officer was even more polite, and was at least willing to hear my side of it, but still wrote me up.

Every other officer I've dealt with was nothing less than great to talk to. Aside from only ever getting the strict traffic cop, I've never had a reason to complain about the police.

That being said, there's nothing I hate more than a corrupt or dishonest police officer. And its the bad apples like that who give good cops a bad name.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by Isaiah

Nice touch.

Am I wrong? If I am, please correct me.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by phil98z24
Am I wrong? If I am, please correct me.

Somewhat yes, I believe you are.

Modelexis creative writing style aside, I think you're really stretching to call this "fear-mongering".

Such blatant disrespect of the judicial system by a judicial officer should be help up under a spotlight for the public to see. This isn't a case of spotty memory or shoddy notetaking, this is deliberate dishonesty. Not only does it let the public understand that SOME of their servants willfully abuse their authority but, it also shows the public that others are willing to punish them for it.

I'd say it's the opposite of "fear-mongering", it's highlighting shortcomings and displaying a willingness to punish them.

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by phil98z24


I strongly second that.

I don't care how big of a POS they are or what they've done; the fact is, they have rights, we have responsibilities, and there is an expectation that we respect both of those. Ethical compromises and dishonesty are not acceptable, ever.

Whether the use of force was justified or not, I can't comment. I don't know. But the fact remains - lying about it shouldn't, and simply cannot be tolerated. I don't want to work with people like that, and no one I work with does either. Deceit isn't tolerated in law enforcement and if this proves to be the case, will be dealt with.

I've inadvertently made some poor notes or haven't been able to recall some things because of time and poor memory, and I know in a lot of the cases that this article refers to that has actually proven to be the case and isn't the epidemic they are trying to make it out to be. Don't let this fear mongering fool you. I'm surprised that this case is coming up in the news now. I saw it back when it came out in January of last year. It really was shocking. Reading the full decision gives much more context: http://www2.albertacourts.ab.ca/jdb/2003-/pc/criminal/2011/2011abpc0023.pdf

Yes, Arkinstall is/was a member of the Hell's Angels. Yes, the police (wrongly as it turns out) believed he was on release conditions not to leave BC. Yes, he was being a prick. That doesn't mean that the police have the right to beat the shit out of him.

Cst. Derrick wasn't the only one who came out of this badly. Two other officers were determined to be lying by the court. I don't know if any of these officers still work for the CPS, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't, or if they only perform administrative tasks.

All of that said, I believe that these officers are the exception rather than the rule and that most officers would be shocked by the actions of these guys, but even moreso that they then lied about it while under oath.

[Traffic_Cop]

Originally posted by Stealth22
Same here. I've been pulled over three times, twice by the CPS Traffic Unit, and once by the RCMP.

I was in the wrong all three times, but I was always courteous and cooperative. Unfortunately that didn't stop any of the three officers from writing me up, and while I didn't like it, I understood that they were doing their job. The two CPS traffic constables were polite, but still pricks, and had no interest in hearing what I had to say. Again, I didn't like it, but I understood it.

The RCMP officer was even more polite, and was at least willing to hear my side of it, but still wrote me up.

Every other officer I've dealt with was nothing less than great to talk to. Aside from only ever getting the strict traffic cop, I've never had a reason to complain about the police.

That being said, there's nothing I hate more than a corrupt or dishonest police officer. And its the bad apples like that who give good cops a bad name.

Just curious..... How did you know they were traffic constables??

[gretz]

Originally posted by dexlargo

I don't know if any of these officers still work for the CPS, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't, or if they only perform administrative tasks.

They will not get "let go"...

"One Toronto officer, Det. Scott Aikman, has twice been accused of being untruthful by judges in different cases. The story of Aikman, and the two cases that crumbled, will be in Friday’s Star."

...Not the first time for this Donkey, doesn't seem like lying under oath as an officer is illegal / frowned upon (until caught)... and even then, slap on the wrist it seems...

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop
Just curious..... How did you know they were traffic constables??

Is there any real relevance? I'm unclear as to your point and how it relates to his experience. They could have been undercover super secret agents for all it matters, it doesn't really change or affect the experience in any manner. :dunno:

Or are you questioning it because it seems he had a relatively decent experience dealing with them so you can't believe they were traffic enforcement? :rofl:

Two of my distant experiences with traffic folk have been in Calgary and "holy shit, where's the tylenol?" they were the two biggest pricks under a badge I've ever dealt with. Especially the one who realized that not one single thing that had occurred could he ticket me for nor, in spite of searching and trying, could he find one thing on my car that he could ticket. And it's not like I was an ignorant punk kid, I was 30!
Never seen a guy leave so pissed off that he couldn't find a single excuse to pin a single thing on someone after trapping himself into admitting he blamed/pulled the wrong car over in the first place. Idiot. :rofl:

Sorry Traffic_Cop, I respect and appreciate your presence on this forum and, as mentioned above, I have a lot of respect for proper officers doing their difficult jobs as best they can but in my experience the traffic unit in Calgary (as a whole) are a breed all their own, and not in a flattering way. As with any group, the point of this thread was just showing that the seeds of bad apples extend throughout the departments. It's just hard to talk about bad cops without defaulting to traffic detail.

It's to be expected, it cannot be avoided, and it's being dealt with in a public manner. Not dealt with sufficiently in many people's opinions but, dealt with.

[Stealth22]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop
Just curious..... How did you know they were traffic constables?? Why? Do they hand out those fancy red "TRAFFIC" jackets to just anyone? :D

[JustGo]

I'm not trying to justify perjury AT ALL, but I find it hilarious that when a police officer lies under oath, it's a crime, but when a bad guy lies under oath, it's called a 'defense'.

[gretz]

Originally posted by JustGo
I'm not trying to justify perjury AT ALL, but I find it hilarious that when a police officer lies under oath, it's a crime, but when a bad guy lies under oath, it's called a 'defense'.

No, its still lying... is that the officers 'defence'?

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by JustGo
I'm not trying to justify perjury AT ALL, but I find it hilarious that when a police officer lies under oath, it's a crime, but when a bad guy lies under oath, it's called a 'defense'.

Come on. You of all people should be able to understand the distinction.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by Stealth22
That being said, there's nothing I hate more than a corrupt or dishonest police officer. And its the bad apples like that who give good cops a bad name.

100% agree. The way this world is going, it is getting harder and harder to trust anyone. I think a society that cannot count on their very police force to be honest and moral is bound to crumble eventually.

I find it so rare to see an officer properly held accountable for being corrupt/dishonest. But then - I think that is right in line with the rest of our ridiculous justice system where criminals often end up serving about a quarter of the sentence they deserve.

Stealth22: I've also been pulled over many times. Except when I was young and once here in Calgary, I deserved to be pulled over accordingly. And with exception of one warning, all the times I was doing something wrong I also received a ticket. But that's their job; I really don't expect to get a warning or let off the hook. Pay to play. I do, however, expect the cop to be courteous and respectful. I did indeed find when I was young and lived in BC they did tend to be less so, unfortunately.

[Traffic_Cop]

Originally posted by Stealth22
Why? Do they hand out those fancy red "TRAFFIC" jackets to just anyone? :D

Jeese, just a question. Whys everyone so hostile??

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop
Whys everyone so hostile??
Everyone isn't, it's your perception. Not unlike your perception that speed traps increase safety.

[cancer man]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop


Jeese, just a question. Whys everyone so hostile??

Why don't you swing by my shop and take alook at this Denali
and what the power of the force did.
I heard his side of the story just curious of page 2.
He is a beyonder and surprised he has'nt posted yet.

[Stealth22]

Originally posted by Traffic_Cop
Jeese, just a question. Whys everyone so hostile?? I wasn't being hostile. :dunno:

[JustGo]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


Come on. You of all people should be able to understand the distinction.
The only thing I understand is that the police are held to a higher standard, which I both accept and agree with. However, bad guys lie in court all the time and I have never heard anyone lobbying to have them charged with perjury.

As I said, I realize police are held to a higher standard, but we are all human, and I think if you're going to make a stink about police doing it, who is going to make a stink about bad guys doing it?

Hell, nobody should do it. I'm not defending it at all. Do we just accept it when criminals lie in court? Brush it off as something they are just 'supposed' to do?

Any cop that lies in court should not be a cop. Period.

But at the end of the day, cops are humans, and thus not infallible.

Does that make it okay? No, but for every one cop that lies, there are 200 bad guys that do. Like I said though, higher standard.

[OU812]

Originally posted by JustGo

No, but for every one cop that lies, there are 200 bad guys that do. Like I said though, higher standard.

Really?? Thats way to fucking high. There should be none that do if its 1 in 200 thats really bad

[JustGo]

Originally posted by OU812


Really?? Thats way to fucking high. There should be none that do if its 1 in 200 thats really bad
Hypothetical number. Obviously there are no stats for that kind of thing.

Relax.

[OU812]

Originally posted by JustGo

Hypothetical number. Obviously there are no stats for that kind of thing.

Relax.

Oh.....i thought you were a cop......

[Traffic_Cop]

Angry people

[Modelexis]

I think some of the anger stems from people's fear of the reality that the people among us carrying guns are more likely to lie to save their career/pension than to stand up for the truth.

I completely understand this, if I was a cop in some hot water and my pension and career were on the line fuck ya I would lie to save my ass.

To have ordinary every day people handed such a great power and responsibility it can be scary to wake up to the fact that even cops have self-interest, even cops need to make money, even cops need a pension, even cops need to keep their reputation.

It's a dangerous power society has forfeited and anger is a common emotion when the truth is in their face.

They also have a monopoly, citizens of Calgary cannot see this story of Brant and call up their local detachment and suspend their account with CPS and choose a new security provider that maybe has a better reputation or that is quicker to fire employees that are found to be dishonest in court. In reality this cannot be done and this leads people to feel largely powerless and this can be displayed in anger at times.

[JRSC00LUDE]

Originally posted by JustGo

The only thing I understand is that the police are held to a higher standard, which I both accept and agree with. However, bad guys lie in court all the time and I have never heard anyone lobbying to have them charged with perjury.

As I said, I realize police are held to a higher standard, but we are all human, and I think if you're going to make a stink about police doing it, who is going to make a stink about bad guys doing it?

Hell, nobody should do it. I'm not defending it at all. Do we just accept it when criminals lie in court? Brush it off as something they are just 'supposed' to do?

Any cop that lies in court should not be a cop. Period.

But at the end of the day, cops are humans, and thus not infallible.

Does that make it okay? No, but for every one cop that lies, there are 200 bad guys that do. Like I said though, higher standard.

I see what you're saying and understand it fully. Personally, I feel if anyone offers purjurious testimony in court they should be punished. I've seen it happen and when there's nothing you can really do about it, it's frustrating.

But still the point is that you EXPECT that behaviour from criminal and miscreant people so it doesn't surprise you. You EXPECT better from those sworn to enforce justice so when it's proven otherwise, it causes a reaction. That should be expected. If it DIDN'T cause a reaction, it would likely be because it was so rampant that no one was surprised anymore.

I've never said that a lying cop is the majority, I don't believe that to be true. I don't think most people believe that to be true. I'd say the majority of the people that hold issue with the police do so with the system itself over the persons enforcing it.

:)




Originally posted by Traffic_Cop
Angry people

Not many. Weed them out and answer those comments that are worthy of a response.

[phil98z24]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


Somewhat yes, I believe you are.

Modelexis creative writing style aside, I think you're really stretching to call this "fear-mongering".

Such blatant disrespect of the judicial system by a judicial officer should be help up under a spotlight for the public to see. This isn't a case of spotty memory or shoddy notetaking, this is deliberate dishonesty. Not only does it let the public understand that SOME of their servants willfully abuse their authority but, it also shows the public that others are willing to punish them for it.

I'd say it's the opposite of "fear-mongering", it's highlighting shortcomings and displaying a willingness to punish them.

Sorry for the late response, I've been a little busy lately. I appreciate you taking the time to write a response to my question.

First off, I hope I was clear in that I believe that people who conduct themselves this way whether it be the police, lawyers, judges, or whoever, are punished for this type of behaviour. I don't condone it, and never will. I just don't want to see perjury confused with other human factors, because that doesn't serve to resolve the problem.

In response to what you've said, I must say that perhaps I was a little hasty in my use of the term "fear mongering". I think what I'm trying to get at, in so many words, is that this article is misleading and is taking advantage of a certain demographic's inherent or for some, learned fear of corruption in the justice system.

I find it very irresponsible for the writer of this piece to say that the cases discovered were a fraction of what goes on in the justice system, when it's completely baseless and likely based on his perception and subsequent extrapolation of the numbers he has. If a judge has found serious charter breaches committed by the police, and those have a bearing on the outcome of a case, it will most likely be published and found. If it can't be found, it's because it probably doesn't exist.

I don't believe this serves to demonstrate to the public that that is happening and people care about something being done about it; I would say it is trying to stir up a hornet's nest of emotion and driving people to react to a problem that in all reality is not what it's being made out to be.

It is important to bear in mind that a judgment is not a finding of guilt or necessarily an attack on those who participated in the case. There are checks and balances in the justice system in place to deal with police misconduct, whether it was deliberate or accidental.

It's also important to note that these things are dealt with by civilian led bodies who oversee law enforcement; it's readily available to the public to see who is part of these boards and what they do, you just have to look. Whether you agree with the decisions or not, these things aren't just swept under the rug. The article touches on this, but again is trying to make it seem like nothing happens.

[JRSC00LUDE]

^

:thumbsup:

[JustGo]

Originally posted by Modelexis
I think some of the anger stems from people's fear of the reality that the people among us carrying guns are more likely to lie to save their career/pension than to stand up for the truth.

I completely understand this, if I was a cop in some hot water and my pension and career were on the line fuck ya I would lie to save my ass.

To have ordinary every day people handed such a great power and responsibility it can be scary to wake up to the fact that even cops have self-interest, even cops need to make money, even cops need a pension, even cops need to keep their reputation.

It's a dangerous power society has forfeited and anger is a common emotion when the truth is in their face.

They also have a monopoly, citizens of Calgary cannot see this story of Brant and call up their local detachment and suspend their account with CPS and choose a new security provider that maybe has a better reputation or that is quicker to fire employees that are found to be dishonest in court. In reality this cannot be done and this leads people to feel largely powerless and this can be displayed in anger at times.

If a cop wants to save his career, the WORST thing he/she can do is lie. It doesn't matter what the hell you've done, if you tell the truth about it, you'll have a better chance of saving your career than if you lie. Lying pretty much seals your fate.

I have no idea why any cop would lie, that's like a death sentence. Once you're called out as dishonest, or a liar, you're done. And as well you should be.

[JustGo]

Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE


I see what you're saying and understand it fully. Personally, I feel if anyone offers purjurious testimony in court they should be punished. I've seen it happen and when there's nothing you can really do about it, it's frustrating.

But still the point is that you EXPECT that behaviour from criminal and miscreant people so it doesn't surprise you. You EXPECT better from those sworn to enforce justice so when it's proven otherwise, it causes a reaction. That should be expected. If it DIDN'T cause a reaction, it would likely be because it was so rampant that no one was surprised anymore.

I've never said that a lying cop is the majority, I don't believe that to be true. I don't think most people believe that to be true. I'd say the majority of the people that hold issue with the police do so with the system itself over the persons enforcing it.

:) :thumbsup:

I completely understand the outrage when a cop is called out for being a liar. When it happens, I do this: :facepalm: .

It makes us all look bad.

But I also just like to put it into perspective. People, for the most part, expect cops to be robots. But we're not. Hell, even the courts expect us to be robots. Every once in a while, I like to pop in and just remind everyone that we are people too; people that generally have the best intentions. Sometimes, we make mistakes. But for Christ sake, just don't lie about it.... sweet baby Jesus. Talk about making things a million times worse.

[Modelexis]

Originally posted by JustGo
If a cop wants to save his career, the WORST thing he/she can do is lie. It doesn't matter what the hell you've done, if you tell the truth about it, you'll have a better chance of saving your career than if you lie. Lying pretty much seals your fate.

I have no idea why any cop would lie, that's like a death sentence. Once you're called out as dishonest, or a liar, you're done. And as well you should be.

You might be right about a flat out lie, it probably doesn't happen as often, but another large part is the middle ground between flat out lie and divulging completely and totally. The middle ground is where you avoid the questions, you don't step forward, you don't offer any statements to the media, you allow the police lawyer(don't know what I'm talking about here) to speak for you, you don't make any positive statements about anything. Police I can imagine would be very good at this "truth bending" or manipulating the situation to prevent any objective statements of truth. Instead they would be far more likely to avoid and recoil from any situation that might put them in the spotlight, might invite unwanted and possibly incriminating information.
In the same way if I get pulled over for speeding and I have a dash cam hidden in my car that shows my speedometer, I'm not gonna go to court with this charge in front of me and submit my video proving to the courts that I was in fact speeding.

If you are involved in an incident where your partner is in deep hot water and you were present but maybe weren't caught on camera during the incident but were just off camera and your partner got the book tossed at him, how likely are you to offer up yourself to the courts in complete honesty and admit you were present and equally guilty as your partner.

How many times do police offer themselves up as a witness to a case involving another officer abusing his power? Do they submit themselves to the court or do they keep their pension hoarding mouth shut?

If a cop did act in full disclosure they would quickly find out that it is against the best interest of the department and their reputation to be divulging extra information that the courts didn't force from you. Same with your partner who you may also incriminate as a result. Are you going to without being questioned admit to a fault during your duties that could possibly lead to your partner losing his job and his family suffering. Maybe you know his kids and you would do anything to protect his family.

We're all human right?

The officer has a wife and kids and a new house and car payments to make, same with his partner which he is also very close to. If they make a false arrest and face the courts and it's their word VS joe blow fucking criminal. Who are they gonna wanna side with? Some dirt bag on his 4th arrest of the month, or with their friend and mentor?

This is fundamentally why it is dangerous to hand over a monopoly of force to a group of people that you trust to carry around guns and with the power of the law and their department behind them.

[JustGo]

Originally posted by Modelexis


You might be right about a flat out lie, it probably doesn't happen as often, but another large part is the middle ground between flat out lie and divulging completely and totally. The middle ground is where you avoid the questions, you don't step forward, you don't offer any statements to the media, you allow the police lawyer(don't know what I'm talking about here) to speak for you, you don't make any positive statements about anything. Police I can imagine would be very good at this "truth bending" or manipulating the situation to prevent any objective statements of truth. Instead they would be far more likely to avoid and recoil from any situation that might put them in the spotlight, might invite unwanted and possibly incriminating information.
In the same way if I get pulled over for speeding and I have a dash cam hidden in my car that shows my speedometer, I'm not gonna go to court with this charge in front of me and submit my video proving to the courts that I was in fact speeding.

If you are involved in an incident where your partner is in deep hot water and you were present but maybe weren't caught on camera during the incident but were just off camera and your partner got the book tossed at him, how likely are you to offer up yourself to the courts in complete honesty and admit you were present and equally guilty as your partner.

How many times do police offer themselves up as a witness to a case involving another officer abusing his power? Do they submit themselves to the court or do they keep their pension hoarding mouth shut?
Trust me, we wouldn't have to 'offer ourselves up'.

If I was within 3 km's of my partner doing something wrong, I'd be going through the process as well. I don't think you understand just how rigorous the internal investigation system is.

I once received a complaint, had to do a formal statement, provide all my notes, go down and meet with our "IA", and all I did was get the guy who complained a glass of water while he was in a holding cell. I didn't have anything to do with the case, I just heard him knock on the door and I got him some water.

In the written complaint, the only time my name was mentioned was to say that I was 'friendly, and helpful'. But my name was in it, so I had to partake in the whole process.

Please don't think for a second that any of these incidents just get the old 'once over'... They are unbelievably thorough. If you had any role in an incident, you're in it for the long haul. There is no 'uhhh, yeah, I didn't see anything...'

They want a statement, they want notes, they want to MAKE SURE you're not trying to hide anything. It's in THEIR best interest to get it out of you, otherwise it makes them look bad if they don't do a good investigation.

[JustGo]

Originally posted by Modelexis

If a cop did act in full disclosure they would quickly find out that it is against the best interest of the department and their reputation to be divulging extra information that the courts didn't force from you. Same with your partner who you may also incriminate as a result. Are you going to without being questioned admit to a fault during your duties that could possibly lead to your partner losing his job and his family suffering. Maybe you know his kids and you would do anything to protect his family.

We're all human right?

The officer has a wife and kids and a new house and car payments to make, same with his partner which he is also very close to. If they make a false arrest and face the courts and it's their word VS joe blow fucking criminal. Who are they gonna wanna side with? Some dirt bag on his 4th arrest of the month, or with their friend and mentor?

This is fundamentally why it is dangerous to hand over a monopoly of force to a group of people that you trust to carry around guns and with the power of the law and their department behind them.

As for your additions here, I'll ask you something.

Let's say one of your co-workers steals something from your work, and you see him do it. You know that if he gets caught, he'll get fired. You are good friends with him. But you know that if your boss asks you if you saw him steal it, and you lie, if you get caught, you're both fired.

He may have a new baby, a new car and a mortgage, but you've got all that, too.

What are you going to do?

If you say you're going to lie for him, you're an idiot.

I guess you'll just have to trust me that's the way most cops feel about it.

There is no way in hell I'm gonna lie and risk MY OWN LIVELIHOOD for someone else's mistake.

I'll tell you what would be more likely to ACTUALLY happen... I'd say to him, 'You f***ed up, you have to be honest about it, because I'm not going to lie for you'... and 99.9% of the time, he'll man up, take his lumps, and I won't even have to speak up.

Whether you want to believe it or not, that's how it ACTUALLY works 99.9% of the time. That may not be how it works on TV or in movies, but that's reality.

Unfortunately, the 0.1% of the time the cop takes his lie all the way to the end, and gets busted, well, that makes the news and that's all you ever get a chance to see, so you ASSUME that's how all those situations play out.

[cancer man]

Many man wear diffrent masks but the mask of virture is the most dangerous one.I/Crane.

[Modelexis]

I really hate debating with you JustGo, haha. You're simply too nice of a guy. It's like trying to convince Jesus himself that people are inherently advanced monkeys.

Were putting forward positions it seems from two opposing sides of humanity, we both to some extent already have a bias one way or the other. You really know a lot more about the police than I do and I cannot dispute any of the internal process' that you describe. So that's an instant win for you.
I guess it's kinda like having a debate with a priest and trying to make the case that priests have a vested interest in keeping secrets from the light of day when something negative happens within it's doors and the priest I'm debating with just happens to be jesus himself. :rofl:
How the hell do you counter that?

Sorry for all the religious referrals, I've been listening to the christian radio channel in the car a bit too much lately, I'm not a believer but it's one of the only intellectually stimulating stations sadly.