Enmax solar power: Worth it?

[R-Audi]

Anyone have any experience with solar power in Calgary? I recently got a flyer in the mail from Enmax with 3 payment options, but I have no idea how much electricity these would actually generate... to see if its actually worth it.

The 3 packages are: (All on 15 year term)

Option 1
No down payment
$0 down $59.99 / month*

Option 2
Low down payment
$1500 down $39.99 / month*

Option 3
Low monthly payment
$3500 down $16.99 / month*


Any extra electricity generated can be sold back to the grid, but they say this typically doesnt happen very much. I havent cross referenced how much I pay in electricity lately, but if it is more than say 4$40-60 a month and solar covers that much it may be worth it??

Thoughts?

[Tik-Tok]

Fixed solar power panels at our latitude is almost useless. To be efficient, the panels must always face the sun at a precise angle, which means up here you need machinery to constantly move them.

Even then, it wouldn't be cost effective.

[Tarrantula]

^^ What he said. Anyone in the electrical engineering industry will tell you that there is ZERO money in residential solar power. Unless you are selling panels that is.

[CanmoreOrLess]

Interesting idea from Enmax (always self serving), as they have mentioned, seeing any return from the panels will be rare. Looks to be much like Bullfrog Power in that it is more about sending out the impression you as a home owner or business are trying to do something about reducing your energy drain. Like driving a hybrid vehicle, it is all about the impression rather than hard economics. There are exceptions, a hybrid/electric urban vehicle can make economic sense, a $120K hybrid Lexus not so much, 26 years for a positive return last I read.

If the panels are a wash financially, it might be OK if the eco end of things is a concern. Have the situations of selling the home before the 15 years are up have any issues? Any home insurance issues (coverage, reduced premiums, etc) with these panels? Any damage to the roof? I saw an episode on PBS where an older home in S. CA was being covered in panels by a private corporation, the owner would see money in pocket in a few years (8 years?). His roof had plenty of new screws, bolts, etc going in. No one seemed concerned though.

You could save over $60 a month just by buying a more fuel efficient and on warranty vehicle than your current Audi (as an example). I had a coworker who switched from a five year old Jeep (paid for) into a new compact car and she saved $90 a month and had a new car, all costs included. Over a grand a year in after tax cash, all with no effort. As a student, she was thrilled, anyone can choose to do this. Life is full of ego propping choices, we all make them every day and believe we make the best choices. Do I need a $300 coffee maker when a $40 one from WalMart might the same? I think I do and so does the little monkey whispering in my ear.

[benyl]

Understand that you are in a 10 year contract, you don't own the panels. If you decide to move, you have to break that contract.

It is worse than a cell phone contract.

You are better off getting third party to install and cough up the $15-$20K upfront.

[R-Audi]

For me if the amount you normally pay would be offset by the solar charges I would consider that a positive result. If Im paying $60 a month for electricity, I would much rather have that come from solar power.

The charge for breaking your 15 year contract is $950... OR it can be transferred over to the new home owners. If it works out financially, I cant see why the new owner wouldnt be interested. The cost of the panels (as per the Enmax page) is about $7k.

My neighbours have it, so I will try to talk to them to see how well the do. (Few houses on my street have it) My roof slopes to the south, so Im guessing thats part of the reason why it could work. Also not sure if it makes much difference, but the house came pre-wired for solar power.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
it is all about the impression rather than hard economics. T

This.

Ask them to see how much on average you will put back into the grid. I bet it’s not even enough to power more than a couple light bulbs a month. You’ll never see the returns on it.

[bjstare]

Originally posted by Tarrantula
^^ What he said. Anyone in the electrical engineering industry will tell you that there is ZERO money in residential solar power. Unless you are selling panels that is.

I'm an electrical engineer, and I would agree with this. I can say with relative certainty that you will NEVER generate $60 worth of power in a month with a few solar panels in our geographic location; south facing or not. Plus the fact that you are in a contract, and you're not the owner of the panels? :rofl:, well played ENMAX.

The only good reason to do this, is if you want to "be green" and consume less power from the grid. Make no mistake though, it will cost you.

[kenny]

Typical setup is 6 panels that generate about 100kWh/month ($8 worth of power) which is next to nothing for the typical household. I don't even know why Enmax mentions any excess going back into the grid because its not going to happen to anyone.

[88CRX]

Originally posted by kenny
Typical setup is 6 panels that generate about 100kWh/month ($8 worth of power) which is next to nothing for the typical household. I don't even know why Enmax mentions any excess going back into the grid because its not going to happen to anyone.

You don’t directly use the power the panels produce, it’s just a technicality I guess. You put all the power you generate into grid, Enmax pays you, then you buy power back from them.

[ExtraSlow]

If tehre was money to be made by solar power, Enmax would be installing these in huge solar farms and selling us the power. They know the math on this.

If installing solar panels makes it easier to bang hippie chicks, go for it, but don't be fooled, it's an expense, not a revenue.

[codetrap]

I could see it being worth while if you were a snowbird, and gone for half the year ensuring that for 6 months your power generation exceeded your usage.

Otherwise, it's a hobby.

[ipeefreely]

CBC:Alberta professor breaks down solar panel program costs (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/05/16/calgary-enmax-solar-power-panels.html)

I'm not sure why it takes a professor to do this..... look at your bill and use a calculator. :dunno:

[Prelude_dude]

Bump to this thread. Has anyone gotten Solar recently or have had it for a while? How is it going? Are you generating extra?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Prelude_dude
Bump to this thread. Has anyone gotten Solar recently or have had it for a while? How is it going? Are you generating extra?

Don't have it, but here's NAIT's live data on their deployment.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/EwPs64809/overview

[jacky4566]

Holy bump batman.

Xtrema that website is really cool. Do they make any recommendation on the best fixed angle for our latitude? There is so much data that could be harvested from that site.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by jacky4566
Holy bump batman.

Xtrema that website is really cool. Do they make any recommendation on the best fixed angle for our latitude? There is so much data that could be harvested from that site.

https://solaralberta.ca/content/alberta-solar-performance-data

[suntan]

Oh wonderful propaganda.

You clear snow and debris from solar panels not for performance, but because if you don't there's a very good chance the panel will get ruined from voltage differentials on the panel.

In sunny California you have to clear the dust off!

[Prelude_dude]

hrmm interesting.... with 12 panels at varying degrees, in the month of october 172.31 kwh was produced.

At the typical 6 panel set up, using the optimal year round angle as per the website of 53 Degrees i wonder how much i could generate?

Very interesting stuff. I'd definitely use more than i'd generate, as my typical usage is 300ish kwh per month. Mind you in July the data shows they generated 393.67 kwh.

From the sounds of it, its still seems like more of an expense than a revenue generator. Mind you I'm more interested in the producing my own clean energy side of things.

Cool stuff, thanks for the links.

[jacky4566]

Originally posted by suntan
Oh wonderful propaganda.

You clear snow and debris from solar panels not for performance, but because if you don't there's a very good chance the panel will get ruined from voltage differentials on the panel.

In sunny California you have to clear the dust off!
What are you talking about? Voltage differential as compared to what? If all the panels have equal snow coverage they will output the same voltage....

I found it interesting there was only a 6% performance hit with the snow coverage.

Prelude_dude with Alberta still on cheap coal its not going to be very economical. I would say we are getting very close to break even now and especially once carbon taxing is common place will PV start to edge ahead. Having a beefy solar array would give me peace of mind when I leave the lights on or running my personal web server. Its not always about money.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by suntan
Oh wonderful propaganda.

You clear snow and debris from solar panels not for performance, but because if you don't there's a very good chance the panel will get ruined from voltage differentials on the panel.

In sunny California you have to clear the dust off!

I don't think it's propaganda. It's a good testing scenario to see how much we get. With snow removed and without.

Again, it's not maintenance free, it's not free energy. But if everyone have these on their roof, it will take care of 30% of the energy we use right off fossil fuel generated power.


Originally posted by Prelude_dude
From the sounds of it, its still seems like more of an expense than a revenue generator. Mind you I'm more interested in the producing my own clean energy side of things.

I have south facing roof that is probably around 45-40 degree angle. But I'm also using 800-1000kw/month. If you average out summer vs winter months, it's about 300kw/month of generation. So I will save 30% on my electricity usage.

Now I assume the NAIT project is using old 20% efficiency cells from 2012. We get 40+% cells now (cost more) so the number generated could be doubled. And if it adds another 20% in 4-5 years, I can almost go off grid (after investing in a battery system like Powerwall).

[Prelude_dude]

Originally posted by Xtrema

I have south facing roof that is probably around 45-40 degree angle. But I'm also using 800-1000kw/month. If you average out summer vs winter months, it's about 300kw/month of generation. So I will save 30% on my electricity usage.

Now I assume the NAIT project is using old 20% efficiency cells from 2012. We get 40+% cells now (cost more) so the number generated could be doubled. And if it adds another 20% in 4-5 years, I can almost go off grid (after investing in a battery system like Powerwall).

Wow 800-100kw/month.

I hope your assumption about the efficiency cells is correct. That is the kind of stuff i like to know; its nice to see that it is getting more advanced and is continuing to do so.

It would be cool to go completely off grid and maybe eventually generate some extra.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Prelude_dude


Wow 800-100kw/month.

I hope your assumption about the efficiency cells is correct. That is the kind of stuff i like to know; its nice to see that it is getting more advanced and is continuing to do so.

It would be cool to go completely off grid and maybe eventually generate some extra.

Also, if that NAIT system cost $30K, lasts 40 years. It will generate 144000kwh for the life time. So cost per kwh is $0.20/kwh. We are paying only 6 cent/kwh right now, so this is still 3x or more expensive than coal generation.

It is coming down but you are still looking at 12-15 cent/kwh right now.

So much like Tesla Model S, it's not about the money, it's about the environment.

And here's the smart play with Tesla's solar roof. I paid almost $25K to replace my roof 2 years ago with composite tiles. If Tesla's promise is truth, I would have paid the same for roof that may generate some power. So the formula is way different because the paid off is immediate as every kwh I get from this roof is really free.

[suntan]

Originally posted by jacky4566

What are you talking about? Voltage differential as compared to what? If all the panels have equal snow coverage they will output the same voltage....A panel consists of many cells connected with wire. If you have a prolonged voltage drop in even one tiny part of the panel, you risk burning out that part of the panel, as it creates resistance and won't let the current flow.

[suntan]

And once again I present you with the guy that actually solar in Calgary:

http://imgur.com/a/aJ4BG

LOL, Xtrema, A HOME SYSTEM costs $30K.

[ExtraSlow]

How much is the warm and fuzzy feeling worth?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by suntan
And once again I present you with the guy that actually solar in Calgary:

http://imgur.com/a/aJ4BG

LOL, Xtrema, A HOME SYSTEM costs $30K.

Not my number, Elon Musk say it will cost like similar roof and I already discount that it won't be ca cheap $10K shingle roof he is comparing with.

Yeah, anything Elon say you have take with a grain of salt.

[ZenOps]

I'm glad someone did a study on optimal angles.

I always thought 90 degrees (standing straight up) was probably the most optimal angle for November December and January. That basically means, if you want optimal power in the winter months, don't install it on a roof, install it on a south facing wall. The rest of the year, probably something closer to 45 degree angle would be better.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by ZenOps
I'm glad someone did a study on optimal angles.

I always thought 90 degrees (standing straight up) was probably the most optimal angle for November December and January. That basically means, if you want optimal power in the winter months, don't install it on a roof, install it on a south facing wall. The rest of the year, probably something closer to 45 degree angle would be better.
I did some work several years ago on a project using solar for remote sites instrumentation needs. We went with vertical arrangement because we needed maximum power during shorter winter days, and we also needed to ensure snow didn't stick to the panels reducing power. It worked good, and took a lot of the guesswork out of the install.
Now, our power draws were pretty small, and we had no grid to sell back to, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison to household solar, but it's interesting food for thought.

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by Xtrema

I have south facing roof that is probably around 45-40 degree angle. But I'm also using 800-1000kw/month. If you average out summer vs winter months, it's about 300kw/month of generation. So I will save 30% on my electricity usage.


it's too bad that 30% less usage won't save you 30%, maybe like 10-20%, so maybe like 30 bucks a month which is what I believe enmax charges for the rental.

[kenny]

The only thing that remotely made sense 4-5 years ago was running 2-3 solar water heaters. They'd generate 100% of hot water needs during the summer and possibly even during the winter provided there are enough sunny days.

Even then it was 10-15 years for the system to be paid off. It might be better today.

Someone should do the math to see how feasible it is to run these in Calgary to provide garage heat either through wall mounted radiator or an in-floor system. During the summer it could provide domestic hot water needs. These should provide a quicker ROI over a PV system.