Deck question

[Kloubek]

Hey guys,

I am just starting to build a 2nd, lower tier to my deck. The issue is that once you factor in the steps down to the 2nd tier and then factor in the space required for the joists and decking, there is not enough space for a joist-on-beam design for the area that is closest to the deck. Excuse what is quite possibly my worst ever photoshop job, btw.

I'm really not too keen on adjusting the grade at all - so am I right in assuming I'd be best off with a flush beam design? And if so, what is the best way for me to implement this?

This is not a large deck area (About 9.5X9.5), so that should help make the design easier.

I would think that my best best would be double up the 2X8's for the edges both closest to the house and away from the house, then the joists can be single 2X8's attached using joist hangers. (The 2 joists on the outside perimeter would have to be screwed in without hangers) Then I would just rest the doubled up 2X8's on top of 4 4X4 posts which would be set in about 2 feet on either side to help distribute the weight.

Is this an adequate design?

Also, you'll see in my rough sketch there that the lower tier extends a bit longer than the stairs leading to the existing deck. Is that really retarded, or should I ensure the very edge of the addition lines up exactly with the bottom of the stringer?

http://www3.telus.net/kloubek/backyard.jpg
http://www3.telus.net/kloubek/backyard2.jpg

[HomespunLobster]

Depending on how high off the ground it's going to be, build it exactly like the deck you have just lower.
Your deck will sag if there isn't support from a beam.

Are you using concrete pilings?

[Kloubek]

I can't build it like the other one. There is not enough clearance, as there is only about a foot of vertical space in the area closest to the existing deck and the house, and less than 2 feet in the other corners of the proposed deck.

For the footings I plan on doing what was done with the existing deck - which is simply setting posts in concrete-filled holes.

[superflychief]

Why not drop it down to a nice brick patio?

[masoncgy]

I don't see anything wrong with the design, you have more than sufficient supports with the four posts underneath the 2x8 beams for the size of it.

Looks good to me. By the way, when you mentioned a bad sketch I was expecting poorly drawn red & yellow lines from paint... that's a pretty solid sketch, I must say... lol.

[Nufy]

Originally posted by superflychief
Why not drop it down to a nice brick patio?

+1...

A Brick Patio would look good there IMO...

Less grass to cut as well.

[ExtraSlow]

+1 on bric patio, although to do a good job, it is quite a bit fo work. IMO, doing decent brickwork is harder than the carpentry for a deck.

[Kloubek]

We thought about a patio, but decided against it since the grade is really steeper than we'd like and we also like the look of a double-tier deck.

As far as the bad sketch goes - I'm a designer by trade, so one would expect my photoshop work to be a little more impressive. Plus, this was my 2nd crack at it... the first was... well... insufficient.

[Ntense_SpecV]

Any particular reason why you want 3 steps down to your lower deck? Could you not build the lower deck so that the top of the lower deck is flush with the bottom of the upper deck or just slightly higher if the step is too big? That way you could build it the way you want to and still get the visual look of a upper and lower portion. The TV show Deck Wars does this all the time. I really like the look of the 2 tier deck but in your case you really don't have the vertical height to pull it off.

[Kloubek]

Good question. If we raised it up more, there would be room for the standard beam system. However, there are two reasons we're going down 3 steps to the addition.

First, that puts the level of the addition just below the concrete well of the walk-up basement. At the same time, it puts the railing already on the walkup just slightly higher (About 2-3 inches) than where it would need to be anyway. So if we were to raise the addition, we would need to put another railing on that side because the one for the walkup well would now be too short.

Second, we need the ability to walk off the addition into the yard anyway. So either we put 3 steps down then 3 steps off, or 1 step down and 5 steps off. Regardless, the same amount of stairs apply, and regardless of how we distribute them, they take up roughly the same space on the addition.

Another thing I didn't mention is that I'm considering making the steps not only at the end of the addition, but along the front of it as well. While it will take up an additional couple of feet into our (already small) yard, it would be a nice effect and make the addition a little easier to use.

[barmanjay]

You have the right idea

'flush beam' : this is what I get out of that;

Double 2x10's over your posts at the level of the proposed deck, use joist hangers for your joists, place deck planks, railing if desired = end deck wars

[barmanjay]

If you don't want your posts too close to the edge, move the posts and run the joists the other direction.

[Kloubek]

Nah, the joists have to run this direction because the deck boards will then run the opposite direction... which is the same way the main deck already is. I want to remain consistent.

[89s1]

You'd be surprised how good it looks to have the deck boards run perpendicular on the lower tier.

[CanmoreOrLess]

I would put the steps towards to back yard and not on the side as in the drawing. As privacy looks to be a premium, build a nice wood fence or some high bushy type trees could go where you currently have the steps in your drawing. This way you are somewhat shielded from the one house next door and also from wind. Perhaps another limited "green/wood wall" on the side facing the backyard to give a little cove for a hot tub or nice intimate feeling space. Make it like your own little private zone.

I assume you are using screws or a clip method (better and allows for the floor boards to be closer together) for securing the deck floor.

As said above, good idea and it really does break up the design in a good way: "You'd be surprised how good it looks to have the deck boards run perpendicular on the lower tier."

I too like a nice stone patio over and above all else. Post the after pics so we can see what you did in the end.

[Kloubek]

Interesting ideas, Canmoreorless. I never really thought about blocking the area off where the stairs are shown in the sketch with trees, or something high like that. Would look pretty effective, and will help with privacy.

We're already moving on getting a fence built as well - though anyone on their own decks will still be able to see.

That's something I'll chat over with the wife.

As far as screws go... yes, I will be solely using screws. No nails.

[CanmoreOrLess]

There used to be a landscaping guy on Beyond, he offered to secure some bushes and trees for me at a very nice price compared to retail. Green stuff is a pretty penny. If you do it right, your neighbours really cannot see much of your little private area. Just need to know the window angles, it will all add value to your house for sure. My sister in law lived in a like community, they did the rear area up right and it sold in a week. Gem of the block for sure. My buddy built a modest deck and included a square wooden tub in the floor for his kids to play in on hot days. One can get rather creative for little cash and some planning.

[Kloubek]

Well I thought about what you were saying, and realized there is a lot more people behind me who comprimise our privacy as opposed to beside us. In addition, we plan on renting a room in our basement and the tenant may want access to the deck too, so might as well keep the stairs closer to the walkup.

I did throw this together though... assuming white rock as the base:

http://www3.telus.net/kloubek/trees.jpg

[tch7]

I wouldn't do that with the trees - it'll create too much of a division between your deck and the rest of your yard. If you're going to put a long wall of trees like that, it should only be at your property line.

A better option IMO would be to keep the 3-4 columnar trees on the right side by your existing deck, and have steps come down the front of the new addition. In the bottom left corner, put a single tree that'll grow up to provide a canopy and provide some spring/fall colour (crabapple, lilac, mountain ash, etc).

Don't use white rock. Looks like crap after a few years and is a pain to get rid of. Just leave it as soil.

[garnet]

you could move the trees toward the back edge of your yard instead of so close up, making the lawn space usable IMO
i agree that the lower tier deck would look and function better with the steps down along the long side, in fact i'd say go further and make the step treads a bit more than usual for safety too, then put a matching railing along the side, or possibly a lattice screen to help improve privacy from the side neighbor
to me the ability to have traffic flow through access from the house, the 2 decks and on to the lawn makes more sense

ps. my white rock turned to crap in short time, i got rid of it and replaced with cedar bark, the bed had fir shrubs

[dezmarez]

Which community are you in?


Was the walk up entrance in the basement part of the design, or did you add that with the home builder?

How much did it cost?

I am in the same process, have a small deck and would like to add on a step down portion. I will keep my eye on the thread!

When you do decide to do it, could you update with pics????

[Alterac]

Watch an Episode of decked out, they do a flush contruction.

Basically you Lag bolt two 2x8's or 2x10's to both sides of your 4x4, therefor making the 2x8's the new load bearing beam.

Can use this on the outer beam, or any inside supports required.

Either you would need to put in 4 posts and do this twice (one on the stair side, and one for the front edge) or figure out how to attach a plate to the concrete.

I attached a paint picture of what i mean, its a top view.

[sxtasy]

You could utilize your existing concrete retaining wall and fasten joist hangers directly to the wall, pour a grade beam on the other side of the joists and clearance is no longer an issue

[Kloubek]

Sorry guys - I forgot about this thread.

dezmarez: I'm in Kincora. We built our house new, and bought their "upgrade" package whereby we had 500 points to select from a list of upgrades which had varying point values beside them. The wife converted the points to dollars to make sure we were getting a good deal for the upgrades, and we actually were. With this said, I really don't know what the walkup would convert to in dollars but it wasn't cheap.

Thanks Alterac. I've seen a similar design to this before as well. Ultimately, you're using 2 2X8 or 2X10s as your beam. I don't really see a strengh benefit to doing this over simply placing a double up 2X8 or 2X10 directly on top of the 4X4 post. Thanks for the diagram though - I appreciate it.

Sxtasy: You're right - we certainly could have done that option.

I sat on this project for a long time, waiting for a fence to get built. I didn't want to dig the holes for the deck myself, so I figured I'd get the fence builder to do it for me. As it turns out, the fence company has turned out to be a couple of losers so I just dug them myself.

Set the posts in concrete today, plan to get the framing done next weekend and the deck boards/stairs done the following weekend. Will provide pics.

[dflamzer]

Kloubek,

It's not necessarily the overall strength provided by doing flush mount beams. It tends to be more rigid and more aesthetically pleasing to the eyes. It also evens the load on the joists over a bigger area. Not significantly bigger but bigger none the less.

I say rigid because the deck is significantly stronger with any potential shifts in the grade.

We just build ours today using 6x6 posts and dual 2x10 beams. Personally love the way it looks.

[blitz]

I don't like flush mount beams because they transfer all the the weight of the deck onto a small number of lag bolts, vs transfering it directly to the 4x4/4x6/6x6. Even if the lag bolts never see a failure of any sort, the wood above them is soft and is subject to a pretty high lbs per square inch.

[dflamzer]

Would depend on how cheap of a person is building the deck. We do six lag bolts per 6x6 and a 6x6 is anything but soft.

The 6x6 itself is carrying the vast majority of the weight distribution of the joists due to the fact that the surface area of the lag bolt is mainly inside that huge 6x6 block.

I do not at all like or recommend flush mounts on 4x4 posts. It's simply a recipe for disaster. I honestly feel if you don't use 6x6 then flush mounts aren't a good idea.

[dezmarez]

Thanks for updating. Did you finish the upgrade yet? or started it? I would be interested to see follow up pictures.