Decisions, decisions...

[Tik-Tok]

So, we have a line for a early 70's Airstream for a really, really good price.

I obviously need a truck, but on the fence of 2 options:

A) Trade in my Audi allroad, and get a new Tundra (2012 4X4 DBL CAB SR5 5.7L, leather) (Would be new daily drive)
http://www.markville.com/accessories/images/Tundra_Double_Cab_4x2.jpg

or

B) Build up a '45-'54 Chevy 3/4 ton pick-up, with a Cummins 6BT 12-valve swap, reinforced frame, Ford 9" rear axle, flat black, custom interior, (would probably have to be 2-wheel drive though, and would be 4th vehicle)

http://www.chopperfreak.com/52truck.jpg

I have MANY pro's an con's for both, but tell me yours please.

[ercchry]

toyota:
practical
comfy for long trips
reliable
winter use
more space

hotrod truck:
badass

[sillysod]

Major con.

Sitting on the side of the highway with your family in the middle of summer because your build shit the bed.

Dunno but if I am going on holidays I would want the most drama free possible trip.

Another thing is 4 people in the tundra is ok, 4 in the old chev would suck.

[SKR]

There wouldn't really be anything to break down on the old Chevy, because there's nothing on it to break. If you do the 12 valve swap, make sure the killer dowel pin is looked after and you're golden. An old truck pulling an old Airstream would be cool as fuck. A brand new truck pulling an old Airstream would be dull as fuck.

The only reason you're looking at a truck is to drag a trailer around. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to invest a bunch of money into something that you only need a few times a year. The downside is that if you go with the old truck, there's almost 0% chance that you'll get it done and road ready before the end of summer.

[ExtraSlow]

Two wildly different trucks. I can't understand how you got yourself looking at these two options.

For pulling the trailer, I'd go Toyota every day.

For awesomeness arund town, I'd go with the old chev.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
Two wildly different trucks. I can't understand how you got yourself looking at these two options.


Because it would look fucking sweeeeeeeet, lol. Also I'd be using it for dump runs and hardware store trips. It wouldn't be as clean as the one pictured, but would still be nice (I'm not about to dump $40g+ into a mint build, that's not a DD)

[Sugarphreak]

..

[03ozwhip]

1. buy used truck for alot cheaper
2.buy 45-54 truck with $$ you saved from buying new
3. build it
4.????
5. profit!!

[sillysod]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak
My thoughts on your dilemma would be that the old Chevy wouldn’t be very comfortable on a long road trip thanks to its prehistoric suspension and relatively short wheel base. Also, modern trucks are much better for handling towing than builds, so when the wind picks up and you get “trailer wobble” it will stay manageable.

That said, there is no way I would pick a gasoline engine for towing. Diesel will forever be the king because of its low torque and better fuel economy.

Conclusion? Get a Dodge Ram or Chevy with a diesel. If I had to pick between your tow options, the Tundra is a no brainer IMO.

For the 3 or 4 times a year he is going to tow, gas will be just fine. Diesel engines suck now. Used to be all about economy but now the diesels get horrible fuel mileage. Sure they are powerful, but the point was always to have something that was much more economical and they just aren't any more.

The amount of towing you would need to do to make up the 10k difference between a gasser and diesel would have to be pretty signficant.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by sillysod

The amount of towing you would need to do to make up the 10k difference between a gasser and diesel would have to be pretty signficant.

Dodge is actually offering a free diesel upgrade right now, but even with that a 3/4 ton is out of my price range.

[OU812]

**sigh** true first world problem

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by OU812
**sigh** true first world problem

So? I live in the first world.

[sillysod]

Why would you want to get rid of your car and have to drive a truck around? I need a truck for work and bought a Frontier because I am sick of driving around 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks for the last 15 years. The Frontier really isn't any better but at least it's not as big, still I hate it everytime I sit behind the wheel.

You can't pass anything on the highway with a pickup, they handle like crap and stop even worse. keep the allroad and buy yourself something 10 yrs old for the odd towing job / dump run. That way when you go on a trip somewhere you can look forward to the drive.

[HO2S]

This is massively apples and oranges. The tundra is a good truck, the 5.7 is a great engine. They are expensive but will be way less than chev, and you can drive the tundra every day.
Realistically you are going to dump $100 000 into the chev to get it to look like the one in the picture. And it will still break down all the time. You have a truck that had five wires in it from the factory. You want to put a engine in that runs off of the CAN bus network. The tundra you posted runs off CAN bus to put things into perspective. Restoring a 60 year old vehicle takes thousands of dollars and years to complete. Unless you want to take up stocks in Bayer, buy the tundra.

[SKR]

Originally posted by HO2S
This is massively apples and oranges. The tundra is a good truck, the 5.7 is a great engine. They are expensive but will be way less than chev, and you can drive the tundra every day.
Realistically you are going to dump $100 000 into the chev to get it to look like the one in the picture. And it will still break down all the time. You have a truck that had five wires in it from the factory. You want to put a engine in that runs off of the CAN bus network. The tundra you posted runs off CAN bus to put things into perspective. Restoring a 60 year old vehicle takes thousands of dollars and years to complete. Unless you want to take up stocks in Bayer, buy the tundra.

12 valve Cummins are mechanical. The only CAN bus involved here is they can go in a bus. I also don't think the OP was planning on building a show-quality truck, just something functional and cool, and that he would probably build sometime anyway.

[msommers]

Tundra hands down.

[CanmoreOrLess]

Tundra or any newer truck. The time you would spend getting some cool project truck up and running is time you could be relaxing by a lake. You'll have enough things to do on the Airstream to occupy some of your free time.

I love the idea of an old truck pulling an Airstream, personally I would later on in the middle of winter buy a completed truck needing a quick buyer. Just keep your eyes peeled.

[Masked Bandit]

If I'm pulling my family around the last thing I want to worry about is mechanical breakdown. I'd go for the newer truck, but why are you limited to the Tundra? Have you ruled out the Ford, Dodge & GM? I've just spent a bunch of time researching half tons for pulling travel trailers and Toyota didn't even make the list.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by SKR


12 valve Cummins are mechanical. The only CAN bus involved here is they can go in a bus. I also don't think the OP was planning on building a show-quality truck, just something functional and cool, and that he would probably build sometime anyway. At the end of the day, you are still putting a cummins into a 45 chev. Regardless of what shape you want it you will be spending huge cash.

You will have to network the pcm, tcm and depending on the year of the engine the skim modual. So yes, you will need the bus lines.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Masked Bandit
If I'm pulling my family around the last thing I want to worry about is mechanical breakdown. I'd go for the newer truck, but why are you limited to the Tundra? Have you ruled out the Ford, Dodge & GM? I've just spent a bunch of time researching half tons for pulling travel trailers and Toyota didn't even make the list.

Hate Fords look, and will never EVER buy a GM truck (we use 2 of them at work, only drive 20k kms a year of pure pavement driving, and they still end up with thousands of dollar of mechanical repairs annually)

Dodge is a consideration, but I just prefer the Tundra.

[SOAB]

the towing capacity should really be a big factor in what truck to buy if you're planning on towing a trailer.

the toyota may be a able to tow what you have now, but once you want to upgrade your trailer, the 8100lbs towing capacity will limit your choices for trailers.

[sillysod]

Ford, Chev, Dodge etc, all are absolutely terrible to drive. If you need a pickup I would buy the cheapest one you can get.

It's like getting a minivan. Some may be nicer than others, but at the end of the day compared to a car they all suck to drive. I would rather have a base F-150 thats 6 yrs old but reliable and a toy in the garage than a Harley Davidson/Oakley/Tap Out/ Ed Hardy edition diesel truck with mad tyte stacks, no matter how awesome it may be.

[SKR]

Originally posted by HO2S
At the end of the day, you are still putting a cummins into a 45 chev. Regardless of what shape you want it you will be spending huge cash.

You will have to network the pcm, tcm and depending on the year of the engine the skim modual. So yes, you will need the bus lines.

What the fuck are you talking about, PCM, TCM, skim modual? An 89-93 needs none of those things. It needs power to the starter to start it, and power to the fuel shutoff solenoid to kill it. Put an NV4500 behind it and you're done. [Edit: yes, there's more to it than that, like motor mounts, radiator, intercooler, etc. But it's not the big job you make it out to be.]

Are you sure you're not thinking of the 24 valve common rail diesels in the newer trucks? Because those are different.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Hot rod truck with a 6BT for the goddamn win.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by SKR


What the fuck are you talking about, PCM, TCM, skim modual? An 89-93 needs none of those things. It needs power to the starter to start it, and power to the fuel shutoff solenoid to kill it. Put an NV4500 behind it and you're done. [Edit: yes, there's more to it than that, like motor mounts, radiator, intercooler, etc. But it's not the big job you make it out to be.]

Are you sure you're not thinking of the 24 valve common rail diesels in the newer trucks? Because those are different.
Late build 91's went to CAN, 89 to early build 91 is general ecu. Common rail came in 2003.

PCM- Powertrain control modual.
TCM-Transmission control modual.
SKIM-sentry key control modual.

Its not as simple as you make is sound, You dont hook up five wires and shit runs.
If you dont have a working network that is programmed. You are going to get a bunch on U codes and the engine wont run. Im looking at the service info for a 91 dodge truck right now. This is not a hill billy back yard swap you actually have to know what your doing.


If this was a simple swap, their would be a lot more cummins in fords and chevy's.

[SKR]

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/0905dp_cummins_diesel_engine_swap/


While newer computer-controlled diesels require multiple computers and a bird's nest of wiring to make them perform properly, the older mechanical engines require two, maybe three wires to make them run.

I don't know, it sounds easy enough to me. And there's tons of swaps that have been done. Enough that compaines like Destroked and FordCummins have sprung up to supply parts (including computers and wiring for more complex swaps).

[HO2S]

Originally posted by SKR
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/0905dp_cummins_diesel_engine_swap/



I don't know, it sounds easy enough to me. And there's tons of swaps that have been done. Enough that compaines like Destroked and FordCummins have sprung up to supply parts (including computers and wiring for more complex swaps).
You and I are really talking about two different things. Your talking about a engine that is simple to put in, but is hard to find and hard to find one in good shape. Im talking about a engine that can be bought from any wrecker in good shape, but is harder to put it.

[Tik-Tok]

For the record, if I did the AD Chevy, it would be the ECU-less one. Yes they are harder to find, and more expensive, but worth it IMO.

[SKR]

Originally posted by HO2S

You and I are really talking about two different things. Your talking about a engine that is simple to put in, but is hard to find and hard to find one in good shape. Im talking about a engine that can be bought from any wrecker in good shape, but is harder to put it.

You can convert any electronic Cummins to mechanical and it will be the same story as the old mechanical diesels. They're not hard to find, and it's not a hard conversion to do. And maybe more to the point, the OP was never talking about the conversion you're talking about anyway.

[HO2S]

Its been well over ten years since Ive seen a mechanical diesel on the road, and I work on diesels on a weekly bases.
Seeing that engines change every year and same engine that rolls out of different plants in the same year are differient. Converting this and that may be harder than you think. The world of diesel is very big and very technical.

But SKR is the pro, so you should listen to him.

[Masked Bandit]

Originally posted by SOAB
the towing capacity should really be a big factor in what truck to buy if you're planning on towing a trailer.

the toyota may be a able to tow what you have now, but once you want to upgrade your trailer, the 8100lbs towing capacity will limit your choices for trailers.

This.

You don't want to be running anywhere near your actual towing capacity. My last truck was rated for 8000 lbs and with a 7500 lbs loaded trailer it would technically pull it, just like technically you can buy your groceries at 7-11. It can be done, sort of, but it sure isn't the way you want to go about things. The new truck is rated at 10,000 lbs and it's a world of difference. I can now accelerate going up big hills instead of losing speed with my foot to the rad.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by HO2S
Its been well over ten years since Ive seen a mechanical diesel on the road, and I work on diesels on a weekly bases.
Seeing that engines change every year and same engine that rolls out of different plants in the same year are differient. Converting this and that may be harder than you think. The world of diesel is very big and very technical.

But SKR is the pro, so you should listen to him.

No offense here man, but you are wrong. The 89-93 Dodge Cummins are an extremely common swap for those who are looking for a diesel. It is also really simple too. I'm not talking about putting an agriculture engine in it, lol.

[HO2S]

Hey, I may be wrong I may not be. All that im trying to get across is any one can type stuff on a computer. But when you actually go to do it, its not going to be smooth sailing. I didnt say that its not possible, Its just not as simple put engine in and turn key.
SKR is just bent on invalidating everything I say.

[freshprince1]

I didn't see the F-150 EcoBoost option?

Cheaper than the Tundra
Better fuel economy
all the torque and hp of a V8 when you need it
More space in the quad cab, better for families
Cheaper accessories

[npham]

He mentioned he doesn't care for the looks of the Ford's so it was ruled out.

[SKR]

Originally posted by HO2S
Hey, I may be wrong I may not be. All that im trying to get across is any one can type stuff on a computer. But when you actually go to do it, its not going to be smooth sailing. I didnt say that its not possible, Its just not as simple put engine in and turn key.
SKR is just bent on invalidating everything I say.

Because so many of the things you're saying are either wrong, or don't apply to this particular situation.


Realistically you are going to dump $100 000 into the chev to get it to look like the one in the picture.


And it will still break down all the time.


You want to put a engine in that runs off of the CAN bus network.


Regardless of what shape you want it you will be spending huge cash.


You will have to network the pcm, tcm and depending on the year of the engine the skim modual. So yes, you will need the bus lines.


Its not as simple as you make is sound, You dont hook up five wires and shit runs.


If you dont have a working network that is programmed. You are going to get a bunch on U codes and the engine wont run.


If this was a simple swap, their would be a lot more cummins in fords and chevy's.


Your talking about a engine that is simple to put in, but is hard to find and hard to find one in good shape. Im talking about a engine that can be bought from any wrecker in good shape, but is harder to put it.


Its been well over ten years since Ive seen a mechanical diesel on the road


But SKR is the pro

All these things are either incorrect, inaccurate, or irrelevant. Your biggest problem seems to be that you don't understand the term "mechanical". It means that the engine runs without electronics. In the context of this discussion, "mechanical" does not refer to the truck's electronic system.

By that definition, "mechanical" diesels are plentiful. The 6BT being discussed was used in Dodge trucks from 1989 to 1998. If that doesn't suit the OP, he could use a GM 6.2 which was built from 1982-1993, or a Ford 6.9/7.3, which was built from 1982-1994. There are plenty of "mechanical" diesels available, many of which can be bought in good shape at reasonable prices, and swapped in with a minimal amount of work.

Edit: "Minimal" being, no more work than a typical Chevy small block.

[HO2S]

I have not said anything that is incorrect, I have said things that dont apply to this situation.
I did not know that you can convert the 6bt to full mechanical. That does make it alot easier to find a engine.
Im sorry, but you do not need to explain the term "mechanical" to me. I have a red seal in this trade and know what im talking about. Most of my knowlege is 1998 and up were computers run everything.
If you think you are going to buy a 60 year old truck get it to look decent. Then find a mechanical diesel engine that doesnt have 800 000km on it, and not spend alot of money. You are sadly mistaken. Buying a brand new tundra will be cheaper.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by HO2S

I did not know that you can convert the 6bt to full mechanical. That does make it alot easier to find a engine.
Im sorry, but you do not need to explain the term "mechanical" to me. I have a red seal in this trade and know what im talking about. Most of my knowlege is 1998 and up were computers run everything.
If you think you are going to buy a 60 year old truck get it to look decent. Then find a mechanical diesel engine that doesnt have 800 000km on it, and not spend alot of money. You are sadly mistaken. Buying a brand new tundra will be cheaper.

You don't convert it, lol. It CAME fully mechanical (pre-98) No ECM necessary, fully mechanical transmission, etc. etc. Fully mechanical means just that, everything is mechanical, including the injectors. You literally just need power to start, and stop it.

As for the truck/engine... As I said, I wouldn't be building a beauty queen, just something nicely functional that looks cool.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


You don't convert it, lol. It CAME fully mechanical (pre-98) No ECM necessary, fully mechanical transmission, etc. etc. Fully mechanical means just that, everything is mechanical, including the injectors. You literally just need power to start, and stop it.

As for the truck/engine... As I said, I wouldn't be building a beauty queen, just something nicely functional that looks cool.
Good luck with that. As a licensed automotive technician, Im telling you its more complicated than that. Ive looked at the wiring diagrams published by dodge.
If you decide to do this project, you will see what im talking about.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[max_boost]

Rather odd between the two. If it were me the Tundra is a no brainer.

[SKR]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok


You don't convert it, lol. It CAME fully mechanical (pre-98) No ECM necessary, fully mechanical transmission, etc. etc. Fully mechanical means just that, everything is mechanical, including the injectors. You literally just need power to start, and stop it.

As for the truck/engine... As I said, I wouldn't be building a beauty queen, just something nicely functional that looks cool.

I'm glad you understand. I get the impression that this is something you're planning on doing anyway, and now you have a reason to build it?


Originally posted by HO2S

Good luck with that. As a licensed automotive technician, Im telling you its more complicated than that. Ive looked at the wiring diagrams published by dodge.
If you decide to do this project, you will see what im talking about.

What engine functions does the PCM run? It's not air, and it's not fuel. What else is there on a diesel? And why do you need a TCM with a manual or a hydraulic automatic?

[HO2S]

Originally posted by SKR


I'm glad you understand. I get the impression that this is something you're planning on doing anyway, and now you have a reason to build it?



What engine functions does the PCM run? It's not air, and it's not fuel. What else is there on a diesel? And why do you need a TCM with a manual or a hydraulic automatic?

After doing more research into this, If you want to get a cummins from a dodge truck you will be dealing with computers no matter what way you look at it. 1989 was the first year the 5.9 was offered and its runs off a OBDI pcm (ecu). Half way through 1991 dodge when to a CAN bus system that is OBDII compliant. There was never a fully mechanical 5.9 in a dodge truck.
The pcm is required to talk to the engine heater control modual. The pcm takes info if from the crank shaft position sensors so it can determin if their is a miss fire and also to have a rpm pid. The pcm also controls a low fuel shut off so you dont aerate the secondary fuel system when you run out of fuel. Their is a rear fuel heater that the pcm controls. This is just for 1989 with a hydraulic auto tranny.
Once you get into CAN bus in 1991. The pcm will share info with the tcm for shift info because it is a electronic shift auto. If you want a manual tranny you will have to flash the pcm so its not looking for a tcm. The pcm will share info with the bcm, and abs modual, and the ipm modual. If you do not have a network set up you will get a no bus code and the engine will not fire.
That is just the start of it, but thats why you need a pcm.

So you are going to find a 89 to early 91 engine that does not require a $10 00 to $15 000 rebuild because it has 800 000km on it. And you still need a computer.

Good luck with that.

The only cummins swap that I have seen was a 98 engine in a 95 f-150, the tech who owned it said he would never do it again because it was so much bullshit and this is coming from a tech.

[SKR]

Originally posted by HO2S
After doing more research into this, If you want to get a cummins from a dodge truck you will be dealing with computers no matter what way you look at it. 1989 was the first year the 5.9 was offered and its runs off a OBDI pcm (ecu). Half way through 1991 dodge when to a CAN bus system that is OBDII compliant. There was never a fully mechanical 5.9 in a dodge truck.
The pcm is required to talk to the engine heater control modual. The pcm takes info if from the crank shaft position sensors so it can determin if their is a miss fire and also to have a rpm pid. The pcm also controls a low fuel shut off so you dont aerate the secondary fuel system when you run out of fuel. Their is a rear fuel heater that the pcm controls. This is just for 1989 with a hydraulic auto tranny.
Once you get into CAN bus in 1991. The pcm will share info with the tcm for shift info because it is a electronic shift auto. If you want a manual tranny you will have to flash the pcm so its not looking for a tcm. The pcm will share info with the bcm, and abs modual, and the ipm modual. If you do not have a network set up you will get a no bus code and the engine will not fire.
That is just the start of it, but thats why you need a pcm.

Holy fuck. Air is always supplied, the injection pump runs of the camshaft, the injectors open and close with pressure, and the whole thing is timed manually. But you need a computer because a truck manual says so. How did diesels run before computers? And how does a computer now have any control over mechanically functioned parts?


Originally posted by HO2S So you are going to find a 89 to early 91 engine that does not require a $10 00 to $15 000 rebuild because it has 800 000km on it. And you still need a computer.

Good luck with that.

Again, you have no idea at all. Take a look around Kijiji and tell me how many engines, or whole trucks for that matter, are for sale for less than $5000 and don't have "800,000km" on them.


Originally posted by HO2S The only cummins swap that I have seen was a 98 engine in a 95 f-150, the tech who owned it said he would never do it again because it was so much bullshit and this is coming from a tech.

I would imagine trying to get a BCM to work when it either doesn't have a PCM, or has a PCM it doesn't recognize, would be challenging. A 1952 Chevy truck doesn't have a BCM to communicate with. The only reason to have a PCM is to communicate with a BCM and TCM. If you don't have either of those, you don't need a PCM either, and the engine will run just fine.

You're looking at how to make an entire Dodge truck operate. We're not talking about a whole truck. We're talking about an engine. What the engine needs is entirely separate from what the truck needs.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by SKR

I would imagine trying to get a BCM to work when it either doesn't have a PCM, or has a PCM it doesn't recognize, would be challenging. A 1952 Chevy truck doesn't have a BCM to communicate with. The only reason to have a PCM is to communicate with a BCM and TCM. If you don't have either of those, you don't need a PCM either, and the engine will run just fine.


This is just plain and simple wrong. Shit doesnt work like that at all.

All because the engine is injected mechanicaly doesnt mean it doesnt need a computer. Their is alot more things to factor in than timing, pumps, and injectors.

Im not saying that you cannot put a 6bt with no computer in a 1950 truck. All that im saying, is its going to be more than five wires. Thats is what I said in my original post. If you think that this is simple as shit to do, cool. Thats your decision. I have my opinion, and you have yours.

[jsn]

Hot rod truck would be pretty unique, but realistically speaking, tundra would be more reliable and practical in every way. +1 for tundra

[Tik-Tok]

So... here's the truck I was going to buy. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately? :dunno: ) The level headed part of me (aka my wife), convinced me not to buy it, and not to look into a truck until after I've sold my MR2.

Pretty fucking sweet ride though, no way I could do this for the price it's up for. Airbagged (would have to be upgraded for HD use though), MustangII front end (again require upgrade for diesel weight), empty interior, a little sanding here and there, a little bondo, and a cheap flat black paint would look perfect. I fucking love the slip tank in the old wooden trunk too.

It'll be the inspiration if I do a AD build.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/TykTauk/adchev.png

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150862528902&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

[SKR]

Originally posted by HO2S


This is just plain and simple wrong. Shit doesnt work like that at all.

All because the engine is injected mechanicaly doesnt mean it doesnt need a computer. Their is alot more things to factor in than timing, pumps, and injectors.

Im not saying that you cannot put a 6bt with no computer in a 1950 truck. All that im saying, is its going to be more than five wires. Thats is what I said in my original post. If you think that this is simple as shit to do, cool. Thats your decision. I have my opinion, and you have yours.

Here, for fuck's sakes. Information from people who have done it. Not from someone who never even heard of such a thing until 2 days ago.

http://competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83181&highlight=pcm

Now shut up.

[SKR]

Originally posted by Tik-Tok
So... here's the truck I was going to buy. Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately? :dunno: ) The level headed part of me (aka my wife), convinced me not to buy it, and not to look into a truck until after I've sold my MR2.

Pretty fucking sweet ride though, no way I could do this for the price it's up for. Airbagged (would have to be upgraded for HD use though), MustangII front end (again require upgrade for diesel weight), empty interior, a little sanding here and there, a little bondo, and a cheap flat black paint would look perfect. I fucking love the slip tank in the old wooden trunk too.

It'll be the inspiration if I do a AD build.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u64/TykTauk/adchev.png

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150862528902&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123

That's awesome. Too bad you couldn't get it. There'll be more than that one though.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by SKR


Here, for fuck's sakes. Information from people who have done it. Not from someone who never even heard of such a thing until 2 days ago.

http://competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83181&highlight=pcm

Now shut up.
What is your fucking problem? The thread you linked said exactly what I said. Its not just dump engine in and turn key. I said many many times im sure you can run it with out a pcm but its more complicated than five wires. If you had basic engine managment knowledge it would be easir to get the engine to run off the OBDI computer, than no computer at all.

[SKR]

Originally posted by HO2S

What is your fucking problem? The thread you linked said exactly what I said. Its not just dump engine in and turn key. I said many many times im sure you can run it with out a pcm but its more complicated than five wires.

You said many, many times that you can run the engine without the PCM? Well, let's see.


This is massively apples and oranges. The tundra is a good truck, the 5.7 is a great engine. They are expensive but will be way less than chev, and you can drive the tundra every day.
Realistically you are going to dump $100 000 into the chev to get it to look like the one in the picture. And it will still break down all the time. You have a truck that had five wires in it from the factory. You want to put a engine in that runs off of the CAN bus network. The tundra you posted runs off CAN bus to put things into perspective. Restoring a 60 year old vehicle takes thousands of dollars and years to complete. Unless you want to take up stocks in Bayer, buy the tundra.

Not there.


At the end of the day, you are still putting a cummins into a 45 chev. Regardless of what shape you want it you will be spending huge cash.

You will have to network the pcm, tcm and depending on the year of the engine the skim modual. So yes, you will need the bus lines.

Not there either.


Late build 91's went to CAN, 89 to early build 91 is general ecu. Common rail came in 2003.

PCM- Powertrain control modual.
TCM-Transmission control modual.
SKIM-sentry key control modual.

Its not as simple as you make is sound, You dont hook up five wires and shit runs.
If you dont have a working network that is programmed. You are going to get a bunch on U codes and the engine wont run. Im looking at the service info for a 91 dodge truck right now. This is not a hill billy back yard swap you actually have to know what your doing.


If this was a simple swap, their would be a lot more cummins in fords and chevy's.

Hmm.


You and I are really talking about two different things. Your talking about a engine that is simple to put in, but is hard to find and hard to find one in good shape. Im talking about a engine that can be bought from any wrecker in good shape, but is harder to put it.

I guess you don't explicitly say in this one that it won't run, but in the context of the rest of your posts, I don't think this can be interpreted as saying that it will run without a PCM. So no.


Its been well over ten years since Ive seen a mechanical diesel on the road, and I work on diesels on a weekly bases.
Seeing that engines change every year and same engine that rolls out of different plants in the same year are differient. Converting this and that may be harder than you think. The world of diesel is very big and very technical.

But SKR is the pro, so you should listen to him.

Not here either.


Hey, I may be wrong I may not be. All that im trying to get across is any one can type stuff on a computer. But when you actually go to do it, its not going to be smooth sailing. I didnt say that its not possible, Its just not as simple put engine in and turn key.
SKR is just bent on invalidating everything I say.

Okay, there's one.


I have not said anything that is incorrect, I have said things that dont apply to this situation.
I did not know that you can convert the 6bt to full mechanical. That does make it alot easier to find a engine.
Im sorry, but you do not need to explain the term "mechanical" to me. I have a red seal in this trade and know what im talking about. Most of my knowlege is 1998 and up were computers run everything.
If you think you are going to buy a 60 year old truck get it to look decent. Then find a mechanical diesel engine that doesnt have 800 000km on it, and not spend alot of money. You are sadly mistaken. Buying a brand new tundra will be cheaper.

Two now, and this one is pretty iffy.


Good luck with that. As a licensed automotive technician, Im telling you its more complicated than that. Ive looked at the wiring diagrams published by dodge.
If you decide to do this project, you will see what im talking about.

But here it starts to turn sideways again.


After doing more research into this, If you want to get a cummins from a dodge truck you will be dealing with computers no matter what way you look at it. 1989 was the first year the 5.9 was offered and its runs off a OBDI pcm (ecu). Half way through 1991 dodge when to a CAN bus system that is OBDII compliant. There was never a fully mechanical 5.9 in a dodge truck.
The pcm is required to talk to the engine heater control modual. The pcm takes info if from the crank shaft position sensors so it can determin if their is a miss fire and also to have a rpm pid. The pcm also controls a low fuel shut off so you dont aerate the secondary fuel system when you run out of fuel. Their is a rear fuel heater that the pcm controls. This is just for 1989 with a hydraulic auto tranny.
Once you get into CAN bus in 1991. The pcm will share info with the tcm for shift info because it is a electronic shift auto. If you want a manual tranny you will have to flash the pcm so its not looking for a tcm. The pcm will share info with the bcm, and abs modual, and the ipm modual. If you do not have a network set up you will get a no bus code and the engine will not fire.
That is just the start of it, but thats why you need a pcm.

So you are going to find a 89 to early 91 engine that does not require a $10 00 to $15 000 rebuild because it has 800 000km on it. And you still need a computer.

Good luck with that.

The only cummins swap that I have seen was a 98 engine in a 95 f-150, the tech who owned it said he would never do it again because it was so much bullshit and this is coming from a tech.

And now we're back to "but that's why you need a PCM".


This is just plain and simple wrong. Shit doesnt work like that at all.

All because the engine is injected mechanicaly doesnt mean it doesnt need a computer. Their is alot more things to factor in than timing, pumps, and injectors.

Im not saying that you cannot put a 6bt with no computer in a 1950 truck. All that im saying, is its going to be more than five wires. Thats is what I said in my original post. If you think that this is simple as shit to do, cool. Thats your decision. I have my opinion, and you have yours.

Now it's yes you can, but it's going to be very complex. And that's not what you said in your original post. Go back and read it again, and then read the second post. Only twice in this entire thread did you think that you could get the engine to run without all the computers and wiring, and then you take it back and say it's not possible. In 10 posts you say that it won't run 8 times, and you kind of say maybe it will run in 2. That's hardly "many, many times".

So I post a link to a thread that specifically asks, "do I need a PCM to run a 12 valve", and specifically answers, "no need for a PCM to run a 12v". So how is a thread that definitively says you do not need a PCM to run a 12 valve Cummins the same as anything you said?

I can see that it says you need to modify the alternator, and you will need to modify or lose the functionality of things like the intake grid heater, the tach, the A/C system and the fuel heater, and that you will have to rig in your own gauges. But that's a long way from not being able to run without the PCM. You're going to lose these anyway with any engine swap, so to say it's going to be difficult for the diesel is misleading because it's going to be the same level of difficulty for anything. And even so, it would still absolutely be easier to convert all those systems than it would be to do it the way you think it needs to be done.

This is what my problem is. You say you're a professional, but you're posting things that are just wrong. In three posts, you say that the engine will definitely not run without the PCM. And you concede that even if it could, it would take more than 5 wires. But posts on a diesel messageboard, by people who have actually done the swap, say otherwise. And then you say, "oh, that's what I was saying the whole time."

Conclusion: You do not need a PCM to get a 12 valve Cummins 6BT engine, found in 1989-1998 Dodge trucks (as well as countless industrial and agricultural applications), to run. That's it. There's no maybe this or maybe that. The question is do you need a PCM (or TCM, BCM, or SKIM) for the engine to run, and the answer is no, you don't. That's it. The end of the discussion. You said you need it, but you're wrong. it's not a matter of opinion or interpretation.


Originally posted by HO2S
If you had basic engine managment knowledge it would be easir to get the engine to run off the OBDI computer, than no computer at all.

Meanwhile, diesels have been running for what, a century, without computers? How is that even possible?

Tik-Tok, I'm sorry we've turned your thread into retard school.

[HO2S]

Well I'm a big enough man to admit that I was wrong on some things and through this big pissing battle I learned a lot about old cummins. At first I didn't think that it would run. Now I know that it will.

[SKR]

Originally posted by HO2S
Well I'm a big enough man to admit that I was wrong on some things and through this big pissing battle I learned a lot about old cummins. At first I didn't think that it would run. Now I know that it will.

Maybe we should get a moderator to clean all this up because it's kind of a mess, and doesn't add to the thread at all. It's supposed to be about about one truck or another, and two pages is us being idiots.

[Masked Bandit]

You boys go sit in the corner until you can play nice!

[Alak]

Honest Opinion from experience:

If pulling a trailer with family:

Walk into a dealer, and buy a truck according to your needs. F-150 Ecoboosts pull like a tug boat for not alot of fuel. I'd never pull anything without a diesel.

If Single, have a pile of extra cash, and nothing but time (a year or so):

Go out, find your 45 GMC (I'd be after a 55 Merc myself), and do the build of your dreams. Why limit yourself to a cummins? everyone has a cummins. I'd throw a screamin' jimmy in there!

[Tik-Tok]

Well, we finally decided no to the new truck. Didn't feel like haven't payments for another 5 years. I think we're just going to skip on the Airstream, and buy a hybrid that the Audi can pull (tow capacity of 5000lbs).

To celebrate the savings, decided to buy some new shoes for Ze Panzer! Will post when I get them installed.