Another oil field ???

[masterburn]

Sorry guys I know theres a lot of oil field threads and I have looked through them all. Heres my problem I'm a student studying Chemistry what kind of work is there available in the oil and gas industry ? I have WHMIS, First aid needed it for lab work, I will be getting my H2S. It seems like oil and gas are only hiring engineering students. Thanks and again sorry for another repetitive thread.

[My_name_is_Rob]

It depends on what your looking for, or where you are looking for work. Lots of places are hiring for various field positions if thats ehat your.looking for.

Your studying chem for high school/college/university? Are you looking for something lab related?

[masterburn]

I'm in university, my field of study is organic chemistry. I want to work in the field something like MWD, but I'm not sure if they hire chemist for that position. I would take anything in the oil field. I do have back ground in physical and general chemistry

[Unknown303]

Just an FYI WHMIS is something you'll get everywhere you go regardless if you already have it. It's company specific.

[masterburn]

Oh, thank you didn't know that a little searching around and they all just said WHMIS, H2S, and first aid were a must have. Heh

[Graham_A_M]

^ They'll show you're serious and put your foot in the door more so then anybody that doesn't have it (That shows you have initiative and you're serious) but most companies will put you through their programs just the same. Its a waste of money & time on your behalf, but it does help. Thats what I did.

With Chemistry, that wont do too much for you asides from perhaps getting you on with a "frac" company/crew that uses fluids exclusively.
You may want to check out Schlumberger, or other similar companies.

Asides from that, you'll likely be doing something well out of your field.

[masterburn]

Aha I was expecting doing something well out of field. I just wanted to know what are the likelihood of being hired with chemistry ? am I over qualified as a rough neck ? am I under qualified trying to get into MWD ? I have no clue. The goal is to get into MWD but, I doubt it since I don't have a technical degree or oil field experience. I just want to get out there and start working honestly I'd take anything starting from lease hand.

[SKR]

If you're taking chemistry, and want to do chemistry, look for a job in fluids. Drilling, completion, production, frac, cement. They look for people like you. There are tons of opportunities available. Look at Halliburton, Baker Hughes or Schlumberger.

[masterburn]

thanks, I have to remind everyone I haven't graduated though, and the occupations are more physical chemistry side of things. My knowledge in physical chemistry is limited. I'm in organic chemistry, so theres pretty much no chance I'll be doing any MWD ?

[Graham_A_M]

^ I wouldn't say that. I've talked to lots of people from all sort of experience that work in MWD. I have to warn you though, you'll be traveling a LOT. So its really not for everybody. I think MWD is the least physically exerting jobs you can get on the lease. Its long hours, but not hard work.

[masterburn]

yea I know I'll have to travel that why I want to get into it now before I have obligations. No kids, No wife, single and ready to move to where ever. Do you think applying as a lease hand is a better option ? I'm physically capable, I work out 5x a week but then again I can never know the true physicality required until I get out there.

[Graham_A_M]

^ Yeah thats why I got into it, while I was still young & free, but the travel in relation to the pay will get to you like it did me.
Being a leasehand on a rig is probably the best bet. The pay is definitely there, and your hours are set. Its not like you'll get a call at 2am, telling you to be on a lease by 3:30am, and you may be there for days and days. That sucks believe me.

[masterburn]

aha thanks, Well essentially I want to get a camp job so I can just stay at camp and drive to and from the rigs, but if your saying the driving will get to me I use to drive a daily 2 hours to get to school. 4 hours round trip, however I'm sure these drives are going to be like 6+ hours. The reason I want to do MWD is eventually I want to go into office this forum has put the consensus that MWD is a safe bet. Being a lease hand I see myself on the rig for a long time.

[vadeit]

Don't listen to Graham_A_M, it is obvious he has no idea what he is talking about.

I have a BSc chem and have been in the oil industry since graduation (2006). It is a huge industry with many jobs for chemists; including MWD if that is what you heart is set on.

Don't worry about the physical vs organic vs inorganic etc. Unless you are going into R&D no one gives a shit.

PM me.

[effingidiot]

If you're in uni you're overqualified for the field: people who MWD usually have 9 grades of education. Not sure why you would want to waste your time like that :dunno: if you *really* want to be in the field you'd be better off working at refinery/upgrader/production facility (preferably sagd type but any eor will suffice).

[masterburn]

I messaged. Problem is the pay just as good ? don't want to be paid a lab technicians salary of 16 an hour even after moving all the way out there

[SKR]

If the only reason you want to MWD is because you read it's a good job on Beyond, you need to do more research.

I mean, it's a fine job and all, but every thread here is the same in treating MWD like it's the best job in the oilfield. In reality it probably doesn't pay any better or worse than any other field position. What does a starting MWD hand make, $3-400 a day? There are lots of jobs that will pay that much to inexperienced guys, and you don't have to stay out at the rig all day every day in the small end of a shack.

What I'm saying is, there's nothing wrong with MWD if that's what you want to do, but look around first. Seriously go to any of the companies I mentioned, which all offer MWD among other things, tell them what you are and what you can offer, and they will tell you where you fit in. I have a hard time believing that a person with a chemistry degree, or studying to get one, is best suited to a job that deals with iron and electronics.

[DRKM]

Look at Fracking companies.

[masterburn]

To SKR, you would be surprise how much electronics are involved with chemistry a lot of time we have. Compounds which we don't know what they are and have to do x-ray crystallography and NMR spectroscopy to peace the puzzles, I chose MWD because it similar to that IMO not knowing what's underground and figuring it out with measurements, I also chose mwd because I want a career not a quick 2 year job then leaving, I can do rough neck jobs now but what to say when I'm 35 or so I'll still be in good shape. I'd take anything. Just need employment, and the options by browsing the forum was either lease hand, rough neck, and MWD so my obvious choice is MWD which is why I'm also on here asking about other options.

To DRKM do frac companies have camps ?? My ideal situation would be to live in camps from the threads mc Murray living expensives can be quite expensive. Also what job should I inquire about when contacting frac companies

[SKR]

Originally posted by masterburn
To SKR, you would be surprise how much electronics are involved with chemistry a lot of time we have. Compounds which we don't know what they are and have to do x-ray crystallography and NMR spectroscopy to peace the puzzles, I chose MWD because it similar to that IMO not knowing what's underground and figuring it out with measurements, I also chose mwd because I want a career not a quick 2 year job then leaving, I can do rough neck jobs now but what to say when I'm 35 or so I'll still be in good shape. I'd take anything. Just need employment, and the options by browsing the forum was either lease hand, rough neck, and MWD so my obvious choice is MWD which is why I'm also on here asking about other options.

I don't understand what the first half of this post means so I'll take your word for it but it seems more advanced than what you would be doing as an MWD hand on location somewhere.

I get what you mean about the idea of being able to pinpoint your location hundreds or thousands of meters below ground to within maybe a few centimeters. That appealed to me too for a while, and still does every now and then. But there are other jobs that can give you the same challenges.

I am a mud man, and my job is to maintain the mud between certain chemical and physical parameters. My mud has to clean the hole and maintain wellbore stability so that we don't end up getting stuck with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fancy directional tools downhole. It has to prevent formation damage so once the hole is drilled it will be able to produce. It has to provide lubricity to allow the directional drillers to slide and steer and make hole. And it is the first line of defence against blowouts. You would know what appeals to you better than I would, but as a chemistry student a job with fluids like mine would seem to be more up your alley. And if you're good at it, it's not that hard to go from the field to the office, and then to an operator's office.

If nothing else, while you're stuck in a wellsite shack 24 hours a day, I get to leave. Sometimes it's just to camp, or back to a hotel, but a lot of times I just get to go home. It's nice to be able to leave rather than sitting in the same shack looking at the same rig all day and listening to the autodriller squeak the brakes all night. And I don't have to work with anyone, or work by any set hours. The majority of my time is spent in my truck by myself driving from one location to the next. A lot of my days have me leaving town at 8am and back by 2 or 3pm, and I get paid about the same as an MWD hand does.

Edited to add this:


Originally posted by masterburn
To DRKM do frac companies have camps ?? My ideal situation would be to live in camps from the threads mc Murray living expensives can be quite expensive. Also what job should I inquire about when contacting frac companies

Just about any service company you'd be looking at will pay for your hotels, either give you a vehicle to drive or pay for mileage on your own vehicle, and might pay you for travel days. If you were going to get a job with a frac company you'd probably have to live where the trucks are based out of, but for my job you can within reason live wherever you want. There are lots of mud men who live in Calgary and just hotel it if they have to stay out of town.

As far as what job to ask about, I would just tell them your education and experience, and let them tell you where you fit.

[masterburn]

That mud business sounds great !! I do like chemistry how's the pay ? I mostly wanted to MWD because of the future career opportunities is it a lot of hard working labor ? And how do I get hired as a mud man no one ever talks about the mud man haha would like some info thanks .

[Penguin_Racecar]

I know Schlumberger will hire MWD specialists with just about any type of degree if they feel you fit what SLB's looking for attitude wise. Schlumberger's MWD side of the business is called Pathfinder in Calgary now, fyi.

[masterburn]

I wish i graduated I'm still in school haha

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by vadeit
Don't listen to Graham_A_M, it is obvious he has no idea what he is talking about.

Of course not, no I just worked in Wireline & assisted in Frac jobs, as well as talked to *countless* people in various positions in MWD.

:nut:

[lasimmon]

The only mud man I know that makes really good money works something stupid like 28 days a month.

Not for me haha.

[SKR]

Originally posted by masterburn
That mud business sounds great !! I do like chemistry how's the pay ? I mostly wanted to MWD because of the future career opportunities is it a lot of hard working labor ? And how do I get hired as a mud man no one ever talks about the mud man haha would like some info thanks .

Is being a mud man a lot of hard labor? Ha. No, it most definitely is not hard labor. You have to hump your kit from your truck to the toolhouse or wherever on the rig you can do your mud checks, and then hump it back when you're done.

There are times when you have to be on location for longer, from hours to days if they're having problems. And most of the time, their problem is your problem. There are only three things in the hole: the rig's pipe, the directional company's tools, and your mud. It's rarely the tool's fault and it's never the pipe. But those days don't happen that often, they pay a lot better, and the office will do everything they can to get someone else out there to help you out as soon as possible.

It's been almost seven years since I started s I might be wrong on this, but starting gross pay is probably ~$75,000 to start with some effort, and closer to $90,000 if you work hard. The high water mark for a staff hand would probably be $125,000 to $130,000. Consultants will gross more, but they're the first ones to get cut loose if the work slows down.

Baroid (Halliburton) and M-I (Schlumberger) are the two companies that I know would hire students and new grads. They will train you. Canadian Energy Services and Marquis Alliance are two other big companies that you could look into. There are lots of smaller companies that would probably want experienced hands like Q-Max, Hi-Tech, Prairie Mud, Mudco, Prodrill, DMK, Matrix, Dril-X, Techstar, etc, that you could look at after you have some experience. But Baroid and M-I are probably your best bet and will probably have the most room for growth.

[SKR]

Originally posted by lasimmon
The only mud man I know that makes really good money works something stupid like 28 days a month.

Not for me haha.

I think I'm averaging something like 10 days a month this year, and I'm almost to $60,000 through 7 months as a staff hand.

Even if I do get busier, there's always breakup. That's good for a month or so of days off usually.

[msommers]

Man if you like Chemistry and want to do O&G stuff, do research work for Shell!

[masterburn]

Man, I considered research, truth is the science field doesn't get paid very well I can become a teacher which is a boring job, work as a lab technician for 16 dollars an hour, go into research with a bachelor level which is around 40-50k there called research assistants, basically anything in the science field less than a PHD won't make you much even post doc start at 40-50k for a good couple years till they get a tenured seat at a university or work in the industry. OR Instead of all that like many I can do the latter and choose the oil field. Hell the average trades guy has a higher earning potential then us.

Right now my consensus on jobs prospects are 1. MWD, pays good I like the work, I like the eventual promotions if I work hard enough. 2. Mud Man, involves quite a bit of chemistry and talking to the other guy on the forum it seems like they don't care what kind of chemistry. 3. Take the chemistry route like the other guy start at 40-50k 4. Lease hand, rough neck.

Do these choices seem fairly decent ?

[chkolny541]

Originally posted by masterburn
Man, I considered research, truth is the science field doesn't get paid very well I can become a teacher which is a boring job, work as a lab technician for 16 dollars an hour, go into research with a bachelor level which is around 40-50k there called research assistants, basically anything in the science field less than a PHD won't make you much even post doc start at 40-50k for a good couple years till they get a tenured seat at a university or work in the industry. OR Instead of all that like many I can do the latter and choose the oil field. Hell the average trades guy has a higher earning potential then us.

Right now my consensus on jobs prospects are 1. MWD, pays good I like the work, I like the eventual promotions if I work hard enough. 2. Mud Man, involves quite a bit of chemistry and talking to the other guy on the forum it seems like they don't care what kind of chemistry. 3. Take the chemistry route like the other guy start at 40-50k 4. Lease hand, rough neck.

Do these choices seem fairly decent ?

Frankly, your choices seem like your already limiting yourself to grunt work. Why are you solely focusing on the paycheck anyways? The check wont matter if you hate your life every single day.

Get into fracing, im in it, and it pays extraordinarily well, no grunt work, no field work (at least for me), never have to leave the city, (unless i volunteer for field training). I got a BSc in chem/bio

[masterburn]

well Goal is to make as much money as I possibly can as fast as I can, go back for masters then start finding a comfy office job in the oil field, but I need to make as much as I can so I live comfortably while doing my masters

[93VR6]

Originally posted by masterburn
well Goal is to make as much money as I possibly can as fast as I can, go back for masters then start finding a comfy office job in the oil field, but I need to make as much as I can so I live comfortably while doing my masters

Stick it out with school until you are done, get summer internships if you can but personally I woulnd't take a year or more off to work oilfield and most companies don't want to hear that you're only working for short period of time before jumping ship. You don't want to end up as one of the guys that says they only want to work in the field to get some money and then get stuck out there forever, the story is far too familiar.

[msommers]

Depends what kind of research your supervisor has and where their funding is coming from. Industry funded research doesn't necessarily mean you're eating KD while doing your Master's.

From what I can tell, they'd much rather you have a computer sciences or engineering degree for MWD than chem. But I mean, if you like Chem, MWD really has nothing to do with that at all. Mud man is probably the best of Chem/Pay/O&G if research is out the window. There are still plenty of fluid research going on and who knows, you may be put in the forefront of O&G research which could lead to huge potential(s). Hell a company I know hired a chemist to make their own acid frac'ing recipe and God knows he wasn't cheap.

Personally I think it'll take a lot of willpower to go back to do your Master's. I've thought about it but I really don't have a project in mind that interests me that much to give up how much money I'm making. Then again, I was so tired of school when I graduated that the thought of two more years was nauseating. However, all the school knowledge would still be moderately fresh and a target would have been set I suppose. Even typing this out now has made me realize how much harder it will be to go back to do a Master's and probably would have been easier to do it right after even if it would have sucked. Ahh frick who knows now haha.

[ExtraSlow]

Here's a question, why do you want your masters?
What if you could have the same career potential without it?

[masterburn]

Well doing a masters isn't really about earning potential it more about what your interested in and want to research in. If your doing graduate school for money your doing it wrong lol the average plumber makes more, unless you go into med school, dental etc... As for oil companies not liking it I was thinking more on the lines of going out getting experience then going back to the company later for a more suitable decision. This was very insightful and I want to thank you all, coming summer I'll try and look for fracking and mud internships, which brings into mind is it possible with everyone talking about spring breakupd and all

[CokerRat]

OP: Consider the following:

- Chemical companies (eg BetzDearborn, BakerHughes, etc.)

- O&G operating companies as a lab tech (entry job with potential to move up to being a specialist in analyses, fouling, corrosion, specialty chemicals, etc..). Companies like Syncrude and Suncor have extensive labs at their major facilities. Someone above mentioned Shell's R&D center in Calgary. Syncrude has one in Edmonton too.

[masterburn]

I appreciate it but in the science world R&D bachelor will always make 40-50k, 60k at most, the higher position will almost always be given to masters. With that kind of earning potential, Why not take up a trade for 80-100k. Therefore, I'm trying to get into a oil field to get a higher earning potential

[msommers]

Because you could hate trades everyday of your life even if it made you more money. Fuck man I was making amazing cash at 18 doing Electrician work out of town but I hated it. I hung on for almost 3 years and said fuck this. Went to uni for a total of 6 years before I found something I liked and finally completed. Yeah I understand where you're coming from and everyone seems throws around 100K like it's peanuts but seriously, think about your future. DO NOT go into a career with money in mind or you'll wind up completed disappointed or hating everyday of your life.

Take it from me man. I gave up my sports car, a sizeable down payment on a house, taking the bus all the time and using my mom's car, and making barely any cash for 6 years to go back to school and find a new career path. It was a lot of sacrifice but worthwhile.

If you genuinely like chem, find where that is useful in the industry that gives you the most flexibility and interest. Maybe water quality, environment analysis/assessment might be in your alley. Oil companies love to bitch about how expensive Worley Parsons is for oil spills:rofl:

[masterburn]

Yea I know what your saying msommers, that why I want my degree first and all, make quick bucks for a few years enough for a down payment and stuff. Then go back and find my true career, I figured it might be easier for me since I already have a degree in hand, I can just pop into a masters program or some other program down the road. Who knows maybe oil might actually my true career if I can end up in an office job in Calgary, I don't see myself being away from my future kids or wife all the time like some of the guys up there do though.

[vadeit]

masterburn, may be I wasn't clear when I was chatting to you but it was essentially what the last posters have been saying. Don't chase $$ straight out of school, chase experience. You put your dues in for 3-5 years; learn a lot, prove yourself then the money comes.

I did straight out of school what CokerRat suggests; go work for a chemical company that is involved in the O&G industry. All the big ones have excellent training and once there if you work hard you can essentially go anywhere; dollar wise, job wise (R&D, sales, technical, support) and location.

Look at Baker, Champion Technologies, Betz (owned by GE now), Nalco, Weatherford, Schlumberger (own MI Swaco), Halliburton (own MultiChem) and so on.

[vadeit]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M
Of course not, no I just worked in Wireline & assisted in Frac jobs, as well as talked to *countless* people in various positions in MWD.

:nut:

You essentially said chem is worthless, "With Chemistry, that wont do too much for you asides from perhaps getting you on with a "frac" company/crew that uses fluids exclusively".

You proved my point with your response about your experiences, it seems you don't understand what they do in the industry.

You assisted on frac jobs. Ok. Who came up with that frac package you pumped? Let's say it was a gelled water frac. Who designed the cross-linker? Was it a delayed linker? Who designed that? Who designed the breaker? And so on.

I am sure you know the answer as they are rhetorical questions.

Frac is just one example I used. There are chemicals used from drilling the well all the way through producing, transporting down pipelines, refining, and then all the products made from oil (polymers, fuels, etc.). There are chemist involved in exploration as well.

Now chemists are involved not only in researching new products for all these applications but also how and where to use them.

The whole point of this post is not to get into a pissing contest with you but it bugs me in these career threads that people throw out advice when they really don't know what they are talking about. As an example I would never post something in a computer career related thread cause I know very little about the industry and would probably just be giving at best poor advice.

Everyone is confused on what to do at the beginning of their careers and bad advice can do bad damage.

[SKR]

On the topic of chemistry, interestingly enough my relief that's coming tomorrow is supposed to have his masters in chemistry.

[masterburn]

Indeed very interesting Msc. and still working in the field ? is that common

[davidI]

Just skipped this thread and didn't see anyone mention corrosion. Lots of chemical related jobs in corrosion both for up and mid-stream firms, though I'm not sure what sort of requirements they'd have for a chemist.

I know some guys who have made bank working with Champion Technologies overseas supplying corrosion inhibitors and demuslifiers.

[SKR]

Originally posted by masterburn
Indeed very interesting Msc. and still working in the field ? is that common

I don't know. He's the first one I've met. Some people you might not expect to be in the field realized that they like working by themselves, being outside, not dealing with office stuff, and setting their own hours. Other people are building experience and plan on getting into an office job later on. And then there are idiots. I don't know which one he was.

I do know lots of people who are more than qualified to "climb the ladder", but they're happy in the field doing their own thing on their own time without anyone bothering them. I know guys who have been in the field for 30 or 40 years, and still don't plan on leaving. I know guys who were in the field for a year or two and got out at the first opportunity. I think it's more about doing what you like than anything.

[schurchill39]

Are you trying to find a job related to your schooling or no? From reading this thread it really looks like you are getting the chemistry degree for the fun of it then going somewhere completely different for work (but at the same time keep relying on the fact that you have a chemistry background). Like everyone else has said you are definitely too focused on the $$.

I think you should get a basic labor job in the patch first to see what its all about. The hours, the type of work etc are all something that people can tell you about but you never really understand unless you experience it.

As for the frac side of things, if you are looking for something to do with your degree the only thing you will really be doing is field QC work or lab work. The most of an office you'd see if when doing your lab reports. Chemists with 7+ years of related experience may get put into an 'office' type job within the lab but that's about it. If you wanted to actually get out on a crew you'll be starting at the bottom and working your way up like everyone else. For labor jobs like that it doesn't mater if you have a PhD or your grade 9. I've done pretty much everything there is to do in the frac world from operating every piece of frac equipment, to lab work to engineering work so I'm pretty confident in this.

Your best bet would be getting in on an entry level position with a mud chemical company, get used to the industry and hours and go from there.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, who do you work for chkolny541? Are you a field QC or a lab guy?

[masterburn]

Well, I really want a chemistry job thats for sure will look into frac a lot. Problem is my degree isn't the typical chemistry degree which I predict is going to give me significant problems getting a position. Honestly I'd take any chem position at any company for the time being, My original theory was do some manual labor get to know the company then drop the line hey look I'm educated in chemistry do you have any chemistry positions ??? but as I'm reading that sounds like a terrible idea from what most of you are saying. I originally picked MWD, because I have a strong interest in it. I loved x ray crystallography and NMR spectrum the puzzles the guessing =) it kind of similar to MWD but I've never tried so I won't know just thought it be cool to guess and figure out whats going on everyday. I picked labor route as a back up thinking I would get my foot in the door with a company first. Most of you guys are stating the labor route is a bad idea so I'll scrap it.

The way I see it, it a win/win situation, money is not the main issue. I'll be fine with entry position in chem making 40-50k but if I don't and get a labor position I can save up a nice chunk of change go back do my masters in chem and have oil field experience.

[DRKM]

Originally posted by masterburn
I originally picked MWD, because I have a strong interest in it. I loved x ray crystallography and NMR spectrum the puzzles the guessing =) it kind of similar to MWD but I've never tried so I won't know just thought it be cool to guess and figure out whats going on everyday.

I think you are misinterpreting what MWD field operators do...

The reason they make a large wage is because the job is shitty. You sit in a shack for weeks on end doing literally next to nothing. For some people that is ok, but every time there is any field testing and I am on that project I want to kill myself.

I am sure there are people on here who can attest to this.

(PS: I am in R&D for a MWD company)

[adamc]

OP, how good are you at watching movies?

[ExtraSlow]

The general rule in the oilpatch is that the better the job and the more desirable the locations, the lower the wage.

Anytime someone is willing to pay $500, $800 or $1000 a day, it's not because the job is awesome.

[adamc]

Oil companies have had field staff over a barrel for years with regard to wages and demands places on workers.

But yeah, Extraslow is correct.

[chkolny541]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
The general rule in the oilpatch is that the better the job and the more desirable the locations, the lower the wage.

Anytime someone is willing to pay $500, $800 or $1000 a day, it's not because the job is awesome.

This man speaks the 100% truth.

[bitteeinbit]

I always thought MWD wasn;t really all that complicated. As in anyone could do it (sort of). Meaning you don't need a degree in anything related. You could have a degree in English Litt and still work as a MWD operator. Or am I wrong?

[ExtraSlow]

It's a bit like office engineers. Consulting engineers make about double what employees make on a per-hour basis, but there is a big trade-off in terms of stability, benefits etc.

Nothing comes for free.

[masterburn]

That is the truth lol obviously they pay more for isolated places let face it who wants to go to butt fuck no where for weeks, for me I'm young I don't mind going to those places no obligation or anything. Boredom ?? As long as there's Internet it perfectly fine with me LOL

[CompletelyNumb]

Originally posted by bitteeinbit
I always thought MWD wasn;t really all that complicated. As in anyone could do it (sort of). Meaning you don't need a degree in anything related. You could have a degree in English Litt and still work as a MWD operator. Or am I wrong?


If everything goes right then I suppose so. Things start to fail though and you'll see who's an idiot real fast.

To be fair though a well trained monkey could do almost any job in the oil patch.

[msommers]

Originally posted by ExtraSlow
It's a bit like office engineers. Consulting engineers make about double what employees make on a per-hour basis, but there is a big trade-off in terms of stability, benefits etc.

Nothing comes for free.

I've tried to figure out how much office workers make, proportionally, with all the benefits vs. the consultants with write-offs. A rough number I've heard is to add 20% to your salary for benefits' value. The isolation is a definitely trade off, sometimes pulling some retarded hours. But stability I think it's a wash, both guys can get canned easily enough it's just the firing order, ;consultants are usually first to receive Le Boot.

Personally I don't know how some of those guys have been working in the patch for decades and yet somehow still have families. Certainly not my big dream anyways!

[ExtraSlow]

you'll never get an accurate percentage to make that comparison. Employees get a lot of stock based compensation, with in grants, options, DSU, PSU, RSU etc. So if the share price is going up nicely for a few years, that can be +100% of the salary, especially for a senior guy. If the share price is stagnant, that can be very small.

This effect is magnified if you are in a smaller company.

Here's an example for an employee (not me, not anyone)
Bonus 10% average
Stock (all kinds) 5% average
RRSP/Savings top-ups of 8%
Health Benfits 2% (higher if you have kids)
Life/disability insurance 2%

So that's 27% on top of your salary. I think that's pretty fair. Throw in a couple week of training (employees gets paid and course paid for, contractor pays thier own way and bills no hours)

Once you start taking vacation into account, the employees is doing even better. Say three weeks plus 12 flex days, plus office closed for three days around christmas, that's 30 days paid for the employee. Some places give 5 weeks plus 12 flex days, so thats even more.

[msommers]

Ya agreed 100% about small company share options. Plenty of guys have retired early that way!

For me, I make at least the same (more than likely much more) than my colleagues with the same experience even with all the benefits. The advantage for me is 4 months off a year to travel, otherwise I'd much prefer to be in town even if it means making less (which it will).

[cosmok]

The numbers used for determining your consulting rate are as follows:

Current x 1.3 ÷ 220 = rate

Where
Current = gross yearly package including bonus, contributions and extra insurance
1.3 = 30% over current value
220 = working days in the year
rate = what you would be charged out at daily

Can use this to calculate your salary rate as well if you are looking to go from consulting to employee gig.