Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour titles

[black13]

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/cycling/story/2012/08/23/sp-cycling-lance-armstrong-doping-appeal-charges.html?cmp=rss


The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency said Thursday night it will strip Lance Armstrong of his unprecedented seven Tour de France titles after he declared he was finished fighting the drug charges that threaten his legacy as one of the greatest cyclists of all time.

And banned for life.
Shame.

[liquidboi69]

Not surprised. Not really a shame either. That's how all professional sports work...everyone's on it and knows the risks.

You get caught, you get the book thrown at you. You don't get caught, you win.

[RickDaTuner]

Wow...

[TeamBestBud]

"There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now," Armstrong said in a statement sent to The Associated Press. He called the USADA investigation an "unconstitutional witch hunt."

"I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999," he said. "The toll this has taken on my family and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today - finished with this nonsense."

USADA reacted quickly and treated Armstrong's decision as an admission of guilt, hanging the label of drug cheat on an athlete who was a hero to thousands for overcoming life-threatening testicular cancer and for his foundation's support for cancer research.

http://www.tsn.ca/cycling/story/?id=403718



Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

[liquidboi69]

Also:
http://www.boxingsocialist.com/profiles/blogs/the-olympic-dealer-interview-with-ngel-heredia?xg_source=activity

This guys on the staff of Juan Manuel Marquez and Usain Bolt.

[danno]

I didn't read it but from what I know is he is just sick of fighting the agency. He doesn't have the time to waste on something like that. I'm not saying he didn't because I have no idea. He has never been proven guilty As far as i know so shameon them he's the champ to me.

[lasimmon]

Um. He didn't get caught. There is no evidence.

[MrSector9]

the thing is though he never technically got "caught" for anything. The federal case against him was dropped and now this was relying on "witness" testimony.

IF they want to go after you, years after your have won then maybe change the rules/testing to begin with?

The only thing that he was ever caught for was back in like 98/99 for cortisteriods that he produced a prescription for.

[lasimmon]

Im just waiting for the International Cycling Federation to say "Excuse me USADA, somewhere along the line you thought you could actually strip Mr. Armstrong of his wins. You have much to learn"

What a god damn farce.

[Zephyr]

From what I read, he's been fighting this for 13 years now. Every year hes taken the test and has passed. The one time he failed he was able to produce a legitimate response due to his cancer treatments. They have yet to get any evidence on him for 13 years, and now he's simply tired of fighting and wants to move on is an admission of guilt. Wow.

Plus the teammates that are witnesses against him were all caught doping...

[cmodem]

I think its dumb. Him doping was dropped from federal investigation and now USADA is feeling like they have to continue. Even the UCI told USADA to piss off.

I hope UCI tells these guys to go shove it and doesnt strip armstrong. As for his olympic medal i think USADA can strip him of it.

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by liquidboi69
Also:
http://www.boxingsocialist.com/profiles/blogs/the-olympic-dealer-interview-with-ngel-heredia?xg_source=activity

This guys on the staff of Juan Manuel Marquez and Usain Bolt.
The article quoted above is well worth the read. I'm cynical by nature but it provides a very rational perspective of how almost every champion in practically every sport is doping.

[finboy]

Originally posted by Isaiah

The article quoted above is well worth the read. I'm cynical by nature but it provides a very rational perspective of how almost every champion in practically every sport is doping.

What really surprises me is that society as a whole hasn't just come to the logical conclusion of allowing doping. Let athletes take responsibility of their own health and drop the whole facade of "clean" sports.

[HHURICANE1]

He was never going to be able to successfully fight this as the USADA had already found him guilty before any trial had "officially" taken place. They have no physical evidence from over 500 tests in competition and out of competition, the US Attorneys office didn't have the evidence to convict him and yet the USADA decides it's OK to ban him anyways. A total kangaroo court. Did he dope or didn't he? I don't know but the process to "convict" him is complete bullshit and should never have been allowed. Even the court Armstrong appealed to said a case like this would never have been allowed in a normal court. I don't think we will ever really know for sure what the truth is but his upcoming ban is crap.

[austic]

Maybe they should spend the money fighting old battles on improving testing of current competitions. If you didnt catch him I say he keeps them.

[gretz]

Complete garbage... How can they go back at him for something they'll never be able to prove conclusively? He's had 500 tests, all passes... What are they basing this on? What one person said?

Okay then, he should name off a bunch of top cyclists stating they were offering him the drugs they were taking > will the USADA folks threaten to revoke their titles?

Here, I'll start > In London, Usain Bolt took performance enhancing drugs I gave him before the race... Are they revoking his Gold medal now?

[BMW Power]

Livestrong?

[bigboom]

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/celebrities/Lance-Armstrong-Victim.html

here's a really good article about the whole lance situation...personally, i dont care whether he doped or not because everyone else also doped, i'm not saying it's right but the fact that he has never failed a test and has undergone all of this is wrong. if he failed a test i agree that he should be punished but even then its only a 2 year suspension not a lifetime ban.

if he cheated shame on him and that's something he'll have to live with but the fact that all this was instigated because of witness testimony with no hard evidence bugs me. maybe the USADA does have hard evidence but through this whole process they have not had to divulge any evidence whatsoever. LA's team asked for it but because this is not being contested in a court of law there was no requirement for it.

between the UCI and ASO I'm not sure if they would actually recognize the USADA's decision since everyone else on the podium with Lance at those tours were also caught doping.

[Kavy]

I can understand his frustration, on the news they said the court cases over the last 10+ years have cost him millions of dollars. There is a point when even when right people know they can't win......this is one of them.

[sputnik]

Originally posted by Zephyr
From what I read, he's been fighting this for 13 years now. Every year hes taken the test and has passed. The one time he failed he was able to produce a legitimate response due to his cancer treatments. They have yet to get any evidence on him for 13 years, and now he's simply tired of fighting and wants to move on is an admission of guilt. Wow.

Plus the teammates that are witnesses against him were all caught doping...

The thing I find strange is the fact that he is effectively surrendering.

Seems like an odd thing for an innocent man to do? It would be like being convicted of a felony after years of court cases just because you don't want to fight any more. You would think he were innocent that he would fight tooth and nail to clear his name.

Is he really willing to live the rest of his life known as a cheater and doper? The only people that won't think that are his die-hard fanboys.

I think he is just cutting his losses. He knows that there is evidence against him and that he will lose in court. So by surrendering and calling the whole thing a "witch hunt" he loses his titles but still allows for reasonable doubt in the heads of his fans.

[bigboom]

Originally posted by sputnik


The thing I find strange is the fact that he is effectively surrendering.

Seems like an odd thing for an innocent man to do? It would be like being convicted of a felony after years of court cases just because you don't want to fight any more. You would think he were innocent that he would fight tooth and nail to clear his name.

Is he really willing to live the rest of his life known as a cheater and doper? The only people that won't think that are his die-hard fanboys.

I think he is just cutting his losses. He knows that there is evidence against him and that he will lose in court. So by surrendering and calling the whole thing a "witch hunt" he loses his titles but still allows for reasonable doubt in the heads of his fans.

i think without a doubt people know he doped, he was just better at passing tests than the others for whatever reason. the outcry at this though is that without failing a test and having actually not been charged by anything when the FDA did the investigation last year he's still getting his titles stripped. so theoretically someone could come out and say oh bradley wiggins doped i saw him and that would be enough to launch and investigation even though his tests were clean?

it's like roger clemens...the FDA went after him he won his case in court against the FDA and he's free and clear to do whatever he wants now. the USADA is acting like judge dredd in this case...i think that is unfair.

[Khyron]

Originally posted by sputnik


The thing I find strange is the fact that he is effectively surrendering.

Seems like an odd thing for an innocent man to do? It would be like being convicted of a felony after years of court cases just because you don't want to fight any more. You would think he were innocent that he would fight tooth and nail to clear his name.


A better example would be if me and 5 friends declare you guilty of driving like an ass, and we're going to let you come into our office, and plead your case to us, with our rules and conditions. And you have to address each of us as "Master". Oh and 1 of the guys on the panel killed your dog and another slept with your wife.

Telling us to go to hell isn't an admission of guilt, it's an admission that you think the process is retarded and nothing good can come of it.

This was a very personal vendetta by the USADA - with taxpayer money no less.

[Swank]

Originally posted by sputnik


The thing I find strange is the fact that he is effectively surrendering.

Seems like an odd thing for an innocent man to do? It would be like being convicted of a felony after years of court cases just because you don't want to fight any more. You would think he were innocent that he would fight tooth and nail to clear his name.

Is he really willing to live the rest of his life known as a cheater and doper? The only people that won't think that are his die-hard fanboys.

I think he is just cutting his losses. He knows that there is evidence against him and that he will lose in court. So by surrendering and calling the whole thing a "witch hunt" he loses his titles but still allows for reasonable doubt in the heads of his fans.

Not quite, he can just fade away with his wealth and be forgotten whereas with a felony conviction you're quite possibly off to ass-rape college. One of those consequences warrants a far stronger fight than the other IMO.

[lasimmon]

Also, in my mind, people will not care one way or another. If Armstrong didn't win no one would care. No one cares about the race anyways.

More people care that he is an awesome human being raising a ton of money for a great cause.

The USADA should be ashamed of itself.

[BigMass]

There has to be some double jeopardy or statute of limitations on this shit. You can’t keep charging someone with the same shit year after year until the day he dies and if he gives up and tells you to fuck off then he’s guilty? They charged him, he fought it, they had no evidence, and he’s long retired, ITS OVER. They shouldn’t even be allowed to go back and do this. I’m not even a fan of Armstrong but I would do the same thing and tell them to fuck off. Who’s to say he fights it then 2 years later they accuse him AGAIN? There’s a reason you have double jeopardy in legal matters and it should apply to this as well. They should get over it and move on. If they had no evidence then that should be enough. If now they have some new methods that determine he was doing something 15 years ago then chances are EVERYBODY was doing the same shit so it’s all relative. What’s next, dig up Jesse Owens body and run hair samples because maybe he was doing something back in the day? Dig up some Greek Olympian from 400 BC and run tests on him? GTFO

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Khyron


A better example would be if me and 5 friends declare you guilty of driving like an ass, and we're going to let you come into our office, and plead your case to us, with our rules and conditions. And you have to address each of us as "Master". Oh and 1 of the guys on the panel killed your dog and another slept with your wife.

Telling us to go to hell isn't an admission of guilt, it's an admission that you think the process is retarded and nothing good can come of it.

This was a very personal vendetta by the USADA - with taxpayer money no less.

"Personal vendetta".

DING, DING, DING.

[Mar]

Good for him to stand up for something he believes in.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by BigMass
There has to be some double jeopardy or statute of limitations on this shit. You can’t keep charging someone with the same shit year after year until the day he dies and if he gives up and tells you to fuck off then he’s guilty? They charged him, he fought it, they had no evidence, and he’s long retired, ITS OVER. They shouldn’t even be allowed to go back and do this. I’m not even a fan of Armstrong but I would do the same thing and tell them to fuck off. Who’s to say he fights it then 2 years later they accuse him AGAIN? There’s a reason you have double jeopardy in legal matters and it should apply to this as well. They should get over it and move on. If they had no evidence then that should be enough. If now they have some new methods that determine he was doing something 15 years ago then chances are EVERYBODY was doing the same shit so it’s all relative. What’s next, dig up Jesse Owens body and run hair samples because maybe he was doing something back in the day? Dig up some Greek Olympian from 400 BC and run tests on him? GTFO

:werd:

Seems like this was simply to see who would crack first. He's been fighting this for 13 years, it's going to get old soon. Plus USADA runs on tax payer money, they have as much funds and time they want. Sure he can keep fighting to the grave, but in the end, is it worth it?

[Darkane]

When you guys are talking about "doping" are you saying blood doping?

Because Lance was on TRT.

Testosterone Replacement Therapy. Drugs the cam be Included but not limited too:

Testosterone cyponate
Testosterone Enanthate
Sustanon
Arimedex
HcG
Clomiphene
Letrozol
DHEA
HydroCortisone
Thyroid Armor and Synthetic T 3/4

Basically the Doctors could have put Lance (and did mind you) in the upper most bracket for whats considered "Natural" hormone levels.

I've been saying it for years, he wasn't "cheating" But he had the hormone levels of the uppermost tester on the control group used to carry out normal hormone level tests.

the Range could be Testosterone 250-1100Ng/dl and he could have been riding (no pun) at 1099. Legal but more Testosterone than an elite college athlete.

[Seth1968]

I'm probably not alone in understanding this, but...

An Olympic athlete has been accused of doping, but despite dozens of doping tests, he has never been "convicted" of such? Yet the accused is being punished?

Is that right?

[Darkane]

Originally posted by Seth1968
I'm probably not alone in understanding this, but...

An Olympic athlete has been accused of doping, but despite dozens of doping tests, he has never been "convicted" of such? Yet the accused is being punished?

Is that right?

he IS taking illegal substances, legally. Sort of..

It's such a grey area. There's no reason why DURING testing he could have been within range - then all of a sudden his good friend Doctor gave him a double shot of T everyday before the time trials etc.

[bigboom]

with LA it was blood doping, EPO and testosterone.

[Ymerej472008]

1st person that comes to mind when you think Tour De France... Lance Armstrong.

If it wasn't for Lance I could care less about the Tour...he raised $500+ million, helped more than 28 million people and beat the odds when they were against him.

Getting kicked in the nut for no reason when contributing so much positive in the world, in cycling and in MILLIONS of peoples lives is a shame.

[BigMass]

Originally posted by Darkane

Because Lance was on TRT.

Testosterone Replacement Therapy. Drugs the cam be Included but not limited too:



Basically the Doctors could have put Lance (and did mind you) in the upper most bracket for whats considered "Natural" hormone levels.

I've been saying it for years, he wasn't "cheating" But he had the hormone levels of the uppermost tester on the control group used to carry out normal hormone level tests.

the Range could be Testosterone 250-1100Ng/dl and he could have been riding (no pun) at 1099. Legal but more Testosterone than an elite college athlete.

depending on the sport pretty much everyone is on TRT. I dont think there's one person on the entire UFC roster that's not on TRT. So to bust him for that is silly.

[Darkane]

Originally posted by BigMass


depending on the sport pretty much everyone is on TRT. I dont think there's one person on the entire UFC roster that's not on TRT. So to bust him for that is silly.

True. It's especially important for endurance athletes as that type of activity actually lowers hormone levels unlike power sports or combat.

[95teetee]

Originally posted by sputnik


The thing I find strange is the fact that he is effectively surrendering.

Seems like an odd thing for an innocent man to do? It would be like being convicted of a felony after years of court cases just because you don't want to fight any more. You would think he were innocent that he would fight tooth and nail to clear his name.

Is he really willing to live the rest of his life known as a cheater and doper? The only people that won't think that are his die-hard fanboys.

I think he is just cutting his losses. He knows that there is evidence against him and that he will lose in court. So by surrendering and calling the whole thing a "witch hunt" he loses his titles but still allows for reasonable doubt in the heads of his fans. QFT.

Being a step (or ten) ahead of the testing doesn't make you 'innocent'.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Darkane
he IS taking illegal substances, legally. Sort of..

It's such a grey area. There's no reason why DURING testing he could have been within range - then all of a sudden his good friend Doctor gave him a double shot of T everyday before the time trials etc. Kind of like the "speed on green" cameras. Yeah, you very well may have been speeding before and after that camera, but while gong through that camera's trap section, you were at or under the legal speed limit. Were you speeding, yupp, at some point you were, but the testing section didn't catch you.

It's a big gray area that many athletes probably dabble with and in the end, it's the individual athlete who has to feel good about the path they took to become a champion. With two kids on the UofC's wrestling team, we are already too well aware of the pressure some athletes put on themselves as well as the pressure from other sources and for some, to remain fully clean just doesn't carry enough weight when there are options out there that might give them a bit of an edge - those options, some are legal, some are not while others allow that athlete to dabble in that very dangerous gray area between the two.

Now move ahead maybe 15 or 20 years from now when gene identification could result in a superior athlete through manipulation or even selective breeding - this will all make this Lance Armstrong stuff look like child's play.

[atgilchrist]

Originally posted by BigMass
There has to be some double jeopardy or statute of limitations on this shit. You can’t keep charging someone with the same shit year after year until the day he dies and if he gives up and tells you to fuck off then he’s guilty? They charged him, he fought it, they had no evidence, and he’s long retired, ITS OVER. They shouldn’t even be allowed to go back and do this. I’m not even a fan of Armstrong but I would do the same thing and tell them to fuck off. Who’s to say he fights it then 2 years later they accuse him AGAIN? There’s a reason you have double jeopardy in legal matters and it should apply to this as well. They should get over it and move on. If they had no evidence then that should be enough. If now they have some new methods that determine he was doing something 15 years ago then chances are EVERYBODY was doing the same shit so it’s all relative. What’s next, dig up Jesse Owens body and run hair samples because maybe he was doing something back in the day? Dig up some Greek Olympian from 400 BC and run tests on him? GTFO

Trying to find the link, but I guess there is a statute of limitations. What did Armstrong in was his ego ,for lack of a better word. He had retired, and had reached the time limit, but then had his comeback in 2009-10, which allowed the investigations to be reopened.

[swak]

Some of you guys are so strung up in the clouds, its ridiculous.
Im doing my Masters re: anti doping, and theres so much evidence Lance was doping... Truth of the matter though, he was just better at doping in a field of all dopers... Its cycling, its known.
The idea is to ban it all though.

Heres a relevant article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/lancearmstrong/9499744/Lance-Armstrong-was-tipped-off-20-minutes-before-he-was-tested-claims-French-anti-doping-official.html

[J-hop]

I don't know the truth, and honestly I don't care. But Lance Armstrong's message has always been "never give up" to those that have cancer and other illnesses. What does that say if he gives up fighting a small battle like doping allegations while some of his supporters are fighting for their life?

To me that says he didn't believe what he was fighting for.....

[swak]

Originally posted by J-hop


To me that says he didn't believe what he was fighting for.....

He still believes in the money that the livestrong foundation brought in for him.... :banghead:

since this came up, i recently read that donations to the livestrong foundation went up 2500% !!!!! twenty-five hundred!
just fans giving the ole "we still believe in you brah!"

[J-hop]

Sorry if that came across wrong, i meant the doping allegations. Hard to fight for something if you don't believe you are innocent..

[Khyron]

Originally posted by J-hop
Sorry if that came across wrong, i meant the doping allegations. Hard to fight for something if you don't believe you are innocent..

So you're good to spend 4-5 MORE years fighting in an arbitration setting where you've already been convicted and have no chance of winning? This isn't court!

Whether he doped or not - I don't care - the point is the system is totally screwed and he's right to tell them to pound sand.

[msommers]

Originally posted by Khyron


So you're good to spend 4-5 MORE years fighting in an arbitration setting where you've already been convicted and have no chance of winning? This isn't court!

Whether he doped or not - I don't care - the point is the system is totally screwed and he's right to tell them to pound sand.

Exactly. His "don't give up" statement is about cancer, not dealing with the monkeys on your back for the remainder of your life.

Guilty or not, you cannot deny how much money this guy has been able to raise for cancer research. At the end of the day, that is actually doing something for someone else that needs it and in my eyes, he's still a hero. If doping and winning 7 times made that happen, well it's not great but how can you fault millions of dollars of cancer research. Some people are literally tearing this guy apart and think he's a huge disappointment and wish they never helped him. Give your head a shake, cancer research is cancer research, you can't lose unless the money isn't being used for research itself.

[bigboom]

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=1

Not sure I would say he is doing anything for cancer research :)

[civic_stylez]

Originally posted by lasimmon
Also, in my mind, people will not care one way or another. If Armstrong didn't win no one would care. No one cares about the race anyways.

More people care that he is an awesome human being raising a ton of money for a great cause.

The USADA should be ashamed of itself.

THIS.

How can you condemn someone who has singly handedly done more for cancer awareness and research than he has. The USADA is just looking to make the papers. Bunch of clowns.

[swak]

The "Cancer Research" that he has done, or has not done is not really the debate.
This comes down to a spirit of sport, ethical concern - regarding the future of sport and what we allow to pass by ourselves.

Hes done cancer research? Great, he must be rad.
On a side note, he scammed the cycling sport, WADA, and the UCI out of millions - essentially from doping.
Thats not cool however you look at it.

Take that bro who got imprisoned for the pyramid scams(im not going to look into his name, slipping me now). Say he donated 30% of the money he scammed to some non-profit research. Does that mean he should be off the hook for the "pyramid scams" that he did wrong regarding?
Fuck no.

Use your heads...

[Khyron]

To what end? Who are you going to give the victory to? 2nd place? Convicted. 3rd? Convicted. It's like being surprised that professional body builders use. Or that every 100m sprinter on the field in London wasn't on HGH.

Nothing wrong with cleaning up the sport NOW but going back 10-20 years to say "you were using whatever you could that would still keep you below THIS ARBITRARY LINE that we have defined as the bad line" - and he still hasn't failed a test. So they resort to bribed testimony.

[J-hop]

Originally posted by msommers


Exactly. His "don't give up" statement is about cancer, not dealing with the monkeys on your back for the remainder of your life.

Guilty or not, you cannot deny how much money this guy has been able to raise for cancer research. At the end of the day, that is actually doing something for someone else that needs it and in my eyes, he's still a hero. If doping and winning 7 times made that happen, well it's not great but how can you fault millions of dollars of cancer research. Some people are literally tearing this guy apart and think he's a huge disappointment and wish they never helped him. Give your head a shake, cancer research is cancer research, you can't lose unless the money isn't being used for research itself.

I was not condemning him, like I said I could care less if he did or didn't dope. But I just found it odd that he is going against the key values he portrays. I think if you asked him a year ago he would say persevering applies across the board and not just with cancer....

Fighting untrue allegations is easy... Fighting for your life isn't, he knows that better than anyone.....

And yes what he's done for cancer research and awareness is nothing short of amazing.

[msommers]

Originally posted by bigboom
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=1

Not sure I would say he is doing anything for cancer research :)

This is an interesting article and appears to have been written from a journalist that sees both sides of the fence, thanks for bringing it up.

It does highlight positives that Livestrong does and then goes to question how the money is spent (the summary of the article is a misleading given the numbers he talks about later). A lot of the money in the later years of the charity appear to have been spent for "awareness" they say because the amount of money they raise for direct lab funds and grants is peanuts compared to the National Cancer Society they sought after other means. In the end, it sounds like any big charity - it's big business. This is a sad reality. I'm sorry but anyone working for a charity doesn't need to be paid $320,000/yr or even half that.

Still to discount the charity has having no funds going to where people think it's going isn't directly yes or no.

I'd encourage others to read the article and share their thoughts. At the very least, you might learn something, I know I did.

Overall, I just cannot compare Lance to Greg Mortenson and his huge charade of deception and lies. I had first heard about him from a podcast of 60 minutes. I just checked my iPod and it's episode 6/24/2012.

[LadyLuck]

Lances personal assistant speaks out

My life with Lance Armstrong (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html?page=1)

[CanmoreOrLess]

Being a step (or ten) ahead of the testing doesn't make you 'innocent'. [/B]

Your logic has all of us as major pedo, wife beating, serial killing, dog kicking ass wipes of society. We all are one step ahead of proof, so it follows we are all guilty?

I personally suspect LA has had a relapse in his cancer, this is the reason he has given up the fight. Life is too short to battle the unimportant.

zrzMhU_4m-g

[Mibz]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess


Your logic has all of us as major pedo, wife beating, serial killing, dog kicking ass wipes of society. We all are one step ahead of proof, so it follows we are all guilty? Really?


...Really?


I don't even....

[CanmoreOrLess]

Originally posted by LadyLuck
Lances personal assistant speaks out

My life with Lance Armstrong (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html?page=1)

Read it, "sour grapes" has a new low and this assistant is the poster boy.

[benyl]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess

Read it, "sour grapes" has a new low and this assistant is the poster boy.

I read it and thought LA is a douchebag.

Most superstars are like that under the covers. Not a surprise at all.

[ercchry]

who the hell picks a male PA... :nut:

[Sugarphreak]

...

[scboss]

The biggest BS that alot of you seem to be missing is that it has never been proven. Its sorta like when a cop pulls you over when doing 55km per hr in a 60 and says your doing 70 with no proof.

Lance armstrong put the tour on the map, never tested positve for banned substances and got shafted hard. No matter how you look at it he got screwed. Zero proof except for other people who said he did it.

Let me ask you? Where were these guys when he was actually doing it and why didnt they speak out then? Their words are ass good as dog shit IMO

[msommers]

As much as I sympathize with that guy's case if it's all true, but he has no evidence of Lance doping (only suspecting) and the whole article is meant to portray himself as an angel and Lance as the devil. All the stuff he needed legally he didn't have which is convenient.

Lance seems like self centered douche canoe with friends in high places while this guy is a spineless wad, enjoying the good life with Lance, with no legal backing when seeking resolution. Even when asked to go find the evidence, he just mentions that the other side asked him to do, and no indication if he got it or couldn't get it for whatever reason(s).


foolishly, I had not kept a copy, but I could nearly recite the thing from memory—and challenged us to spend the money on forensic computer examination to find it.

Again I sympathize with this guy given that what he is saying is accurate and true but still, people are innocent until proven guilty and he hasn't proved shit.

[benyl]

Originally posted by warcaster
The biggest BS that alot of you seem to be missing is that it has never been proven. Its sorta like when a cop pulls you over when doing 55km per hr in a 60 and says your doing 70 with no proof.


Bad analogy, let me help you.


I got 1 speeding ticket back in the 90s. I have driven over the limit on many occasions since then, but have not been caught. My friends and other beyonders have seen me speed, but there is no evidence of me doing that.

I guess I am not a speeder because I have yet to be caught and I say I am not a speeder.

If anyone says that I am a speeder, I take them to court and sue them for defamation. I also hang out with known speeders and tuners that help cars go faster, but again, I have never been clocked over the limit and therefore am not a speeder.

[scboss]

Originally posted by benyl


Bad analogy, let me help you.


I got 1 speeding ticket back in the 90s. I have driven over the limit on many occasions since then, but have not been caught. My friends and other beyonders have seen me speed, but there is no evidence of me doing that.

I guess I am not a speeder because I have yet to be caught and I say I am not a speeder.

If anyone says that I am a speeder, I take them to court and sue them for defamation. I also hang out with known speeders and tuners that help cars go faster, but again, I have never been clocked over the limit and therefore am not a speeder.

The city should strip you of your liscence

[CanmoreOrLess]

Originally posted by benyl


Bad analogy, let me help you.


I got 1 speeding ticket back in the 90s. I have driven over the limit on many occasions since then, but have not been caught. My friends and other beyonders have seen me speed, but there is no evidence of me doing that.

I guess I am not a speeder because I have yet to be caught and I say I am not a speeder.

If anyone says that I am a speeder, I take them to court and sue them for defamation. I also hang out with known speeders and tuners that help cars go faster, but again, I have never been clocked over the limit and therefore am not a speeder.

LA had over 500 tests, 500! Not one was positive, none. This is why they test, cause it works. You think you could have passed 500 tests for speeding to this point in your life? Or driving while under the influence? I know the F well I would have failed both on the same hour.

And for the record, LA has never "had a speeding ticket" unlike in your flawed example. All finger pointers have hidden and not so hidden reasons as well as failed careers. The glove don't fit....

[msommers]

Originally posted by benyl
I have driven over the limit on many occasions since then, but have not been caught. My friends and other beyonders have seen me speed, but there is no evidence of me doing that.

I guess I am not a speeder...

In the eyes of the law, you aren't. And that's all that matters.

[ga16i]

Damn right. A pimp surrounded by hoes does not make him a ho himself.

Unless there's actual positive tests that conclusively says yes he was doping, then I don't think that we can say that he was.

[max_boost]

Really what's the big deal? Did Lance go fuck someone's wife on the USADA, why are they going so hard after him? :nut: :dunno:

[Sugarphreak]

...

[SOAB]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


You are missing the part where you get clocked speeding, end up in court and just before they conclusively find you guilty you just throw up your hands and say "Fine, you win.... I'm guilty and I give up my right to keep fighting"


That is how I interpret this; seriously, why now? He finally got tired after 7 years, really? Or was this just the classy way out to end the investigation and therefore avoid conclusive evidence from being released?

Without a conclusion of him either being found guilty of doping or being cleared we will never know.... which is probably the point of what he did IMO.

you forget about the part where LA was cleared by the US Federal Courts because they couldn't convict him of any wrong doing.

this was clearly a witch hunt by an organization that had a personal vendetta against him.

anyway, IF he was cheating, and people say everyone was cheating, than he had no advantage anyways.

[spikerS]

I don't know.

If I got dragged into court 500 times for doing 110 on deerfoot in a 100kph zone over 7+ years, and winning every time, I might just be willing to say fuck it, I have had enough, give me my fine and I will be on my way and leave this headache behind...

actually, I would have thrown my hands up in the air 475 times ago.

[swak]

Another bad analogy.

Dopers said you doped, you doped too... Therefore you doped.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by swak
Another bad analogy.

Dopers said you doped, you doped too... Therefore you doped.

i:thumbsup:

[spikerS]

Originally posted by swak
Another bad analogy.

Dopers said you doped, you doped too... Therefore you doped.

ok, so granny saw you speeding on deerfoot and you beat it in court 500 times.

and it is alleged doping, by an eyewitness, and we all know how reliable those are, especially after beating 500 tests.

I am not saying he is innocent, but to beat 500 tests, I am leaning on the side that he is innocent and someone has a personal vendetta out against him.

Now I dont even pretend to know much about the sport, but didn't discovery channel do a whole bit on him and explaining why he was able to perform better? something to do with a slightly enlarged heart and being able to process and use oxygen that much better?

[max_boost]

OJ was innocent too. :rofl:

[Khyron]

Oh I have no illusions that he took stuff - just like everyone else at the time.

I think this is a better speeding comparison:

Speed limit is 100 but the radar guns suck. They can't say for sure if it's 95 or 105. So they make a rule that if the gun says 125 you're fucked - even the crappiest gun is correctly identifying you as a speeder at that level. So all the drivers on the highway try and hold it at 120 or 121 - enough that the gun will never say they're speeding for 100% certainty (this is how doping works).

One of the speeders gets charged anyway, goes to court, wins when they toss it for lack of evidence. So they charge again. And again and again. For 10 years. Finally the city says "We can't win in court so we're going to take your licence unless you debate in front of city council for 5 years and convince us. But we can't be convinced - we know you're guilty!". So the speeder (who we all know was speeding, sort of) says screw it, take the license - and now we get to watch the court and the city fight it out over who has jurisdiction.

It's like RIAA going after a kid for downloading an mp3, 5 years ago. They are right on the legality but seeking 1 million in damages is absurd.

[Z_Fan]

I think the whole thing is just bullshit.

I think Usain Bolt dopes. Don't matter to me that he very likely does and that he is faster because of it - I think most if not all of his competitors are doing the same damn thing. Taking whatever advantage they can and not get caught. Cheating carefully. Call it what you will but it is this exact science of knowing how to cheat that let's these guys and these teams cheat and not get caught.

I think all the best of the best cheat with drugs of some form or another. And the ones who are truly the best don't get caught because they are truly the best and have very good people cheating with them and cheating for them.

It's unfortunate. Maybe it's just time to go the other way and let them all use whatever the hell drugs they want. I don't see why not. I don't think it makes the actual watching of the sport any different. In fact, it wouldn't be, cuz they are all cheating right now so essentially it's the same anyhow. :devil:

IMO, I watched Lance Armstrong win a lot of races over the years and IMO he will always be the winner of those races. You think the guys who came 2nd place were always clean? Fuck that shit. That's foolish thinking.

Fuck USADA.

[D'z Nutz]

I think there needs to be a league of sports where doping is mandatory then there would be no argument. Dope up as much as you can without killing yourself. Man, wouldn't that be fun to watch? Imagine all the crazy new records Haha

[Sugarphreak]

...

[KRyn]

I feel bad for Lance! The general public is just clueless as to how many athletes really use steroids. The summer Olympics has so many athletes doping it's not even funny. The same goes for a number of other professional sports. If you think otherwise you are sadly mistaken. Unfortunately for Lance, he is a huge household name and as such he is going to be roasted on the pyre. Oh well, he made his millions hopefully he hasn’t squandered them.

[suntan]

Originally posted by D'z Nutz
I think there needs to be a league of sports where doping is mandatory then there would be no argument. Dope up as much as you can without killing yourself. Man, wouldn't that be fun to watch? Imagine all the crazy new records Haha I'm not sure it was the doping that got him in trouble, it was his apparently massive distribution network.

[bigboom]

been reading the reasoned decision over the last couple days...it's quite the coverup involving a LOT of people. i'm surprised they were able to keep it quiet for as long as they did.

http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/ipt/2012.12.10_Armstrong_Doping_Reasoned+Decision_all.1.pdf

[msommers]

That is quite the report! Gonna have to work my way through it, seems quite interesting.

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by D'z Nutz
I think there needs to be a league of sports where doping is mandatory then there would be no argument. Dope up as much as you can without killing yourself. Man, wouldn't that be fun to watch? Imagine all the crazy new records Haha

Its called the Olympics.

[rizfarmer]

Originally posted by D'z Nutz
I think there needs to be a league of sports where doping is mandatory then there would be no argument. Dope up as much as you can without killing yourself. Man, wouldn't that be fun to watch? Imagine all the crazy new records Haha


There is. It's called WWE

[bigboom]

Yeah...the thing that still bugs me about it is that it is all based on everyone pointing fingers and saying they saw things and did things, there is still no hard evidence that he did anything wrong.

The other thing that I find confusing is all the people that admitted to doping only got 6 months even though LA is getting a lifetime. Guys like Levi Leipheimer who have already been caught once should be getting a lifetime ban as it's a 2 strikes you're out policy.

[swak]

Originally posted by D'z Nutz
I think there needs to be a league of sports where doping is mandatory then there would be no argument. Dope up as much as you can without killing yourself. Man, wouldn't that be fun to watch? Imagine all the crazy new records Haha

It's called professional bike racing

Oh, and BTW,

WADA 10.5.4
Where an athlete or other person voluntarily admits the commission of an anti-doping rule violation before having received notice of a sample collection which could establish an anti-doping rule violation... then the period of Ineligibility may be reduced...

WIthout going too in-depth, this is probably why Witness testimony bro's only got 6 months. where Lance got lifetime (and imo. rightfully so).
... and from article 10.3.2 RE: Lance's ban:
- "Those who are involved in doping athletes or COVERING UP DOPING should be subject to sanctions which are more severe than the Athletes who test positive. Min 4 yrs - life

... and bigboom, it is a two strikes, somtimes 3 strikes thing :eek:

[benyl]

UCI has officially stripped the 7 TDF titles:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/cycling/story/2012/10/22/lance-armstrong-doping-titles-decision.html


"Lance Armstrong has no place in cycling and he deserves to be forgotten in cycling," said Pat McQuaid, the president said of the International Cycling Union. "This is a landmark day for cycling."

[prosh]

If you're not cheating, you're not trying!

[swak]

Originally posted by benyl
UCI has officially stripped the 7 TDF titles:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/cycling/story/2012/10/22/lance-armstrong-doping-titles-decision.html



I thought it would take a new UCI President to get this passed by the UCI..

But, guaranteed - across cycling, McQuaid just cleaned up his image by a hugggeeeee margin.

:clap:

[bigboom]

I don know if McQuaid cleaned up h is image though...i think he had no other path other than to strip the titles. I wish he didnt strip them and appealed because i think that would have brought about way more change than this decision will.

He would have been lynched if he appealed and then the cleanup process could have started.

[superflychief]

Anybody raised the notion that if everybody was doping during the Lance years, then technically, weren't they on a level playing field and the strongest rider won?? :D

[Sugarphreak]

...

[swak]

Originally posted by bigboom
I don know if McQuaid cleaned up h is image though...i think he had no other path other than to strip the titles. I wish he didnt strip them and appealed because i think that would have brought about way more change than this decision will.

He would have been lynched if he appealed and then the cleanup process could have started.

Possibly, but theres evidence against Lance being in kahutes with McQuaid... Appealing in favor of Lance would just illustrate this "plausible fallacy" even further.

I typed this up from Paul Melia (CEO of CCES - Cdn centre for ethics in sport) this morning on his interview with CBC... Found it pretty humerous.

“I’m amazed that Mr. Armstrong can continue to be in a state of denial. That really bewilders me in the face of such overwhelming evidence. It’s always been an athlete’s first reaction when they’re caught doping to deny, deny, deny; but In the face of such overwhelming evidence it amazes me that he continues to do so… Maybe someone has to do an intervention with him”.

[superflychief]

After all the accusations and denials, can he really just say, "yah you got me. I'm full of shit and was doping". He's been denying for so long, it's all he knows and I think he may look like an even bigger ass if he does finally admit to it. I think he's just hoping this just goes away and people forget about it when the next big piece of news comes out. Wait till it comes out that all of Sky was doping during the Tour and they will forget about LA :poosie:

[CanmoreOrLess]

Wow was I wrong, LA is a doper and caught or not all pros are doping IMO and just not caught.... yet. Hate to lump them all in the same pot but they did it to themselves as a sport. I am not running through all the posts, where I was defending LA, I was so wrong.

One wonders how many dopers there are in amateur races, I'm thinking of in and around Calgary, or any race with high income earners. Are all the top amateur racers giving urine and/or blood samples if they place?

And further, how is it LA is not doing jail time for fraud?

[swak]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
Wow was I wrong, LA is a doper and caught or not all pros are doping IMO and just not caught.... yet. Hate to lump them all in the same pot but they did it to themselves as a sport. I am not running through all the posts, where I was defending LA, I was so wrong.

One wonders how many dopers there are in amateur races, I'm thinking of in and around Calgary, or any race with high income earners. Are all the top amateur racers giving urine and/or blood samples if they place?

And further, how is it LA is not doing jail time for fraud?

I GUARANTEE YOU... GUARANTEED. theres dopers in amateur races.
Are there guys taking steroids at Golds, WHC, etc... who don't compete?
Of course.
Why do they do it then? Fame Brah! "my friends will think my pecs look mad tyte"

Tour de Bowness - 1st place gets $2000 in Cat 1.
It'd be ignorant to say they are all clean.

And i partially agree with you saying the sport did it to itself, but i'd say its everyone that did it to cycling.
People constantly want to see faster and faster athletes, want to see people break world records, Sprint faster, swim faster, cycle faster, throw a football further.
Thus breeding supplementation - and when that doesn't work, EPO's, AAS, etc.

This is basic shit.

[flipstah]

Hope he invested well.

Lost all of his sponsors today, inlcuding Oakley.

[benyl]

Oakley was his last sponsor.

[Str1der]

So which company will be the first to sue him to recover sponsorship funds?

[bigboom]

Originally posted by swak


Possibly, but theres evidence against Lance being in kahutes with McQuaid... Appealing in favor of Lance would just illustrate this "plausible fallacy" even further.

I typed this up from Paul Melia (CEO of CCES - Cdn centre for ethics in sport) this morning on his interview with CBC... Found it pretty humerous.

“I’m amazed that Mr. Armstrong can continue to be in a state of denial. That really bewilders me in the face of such overwhelming evidence. It’s always been an athlete’s first reaction when they’re caught doping to deny, deny, deny; but In the face of such overwhelming evidence it amazes me that he continues to do so… Maybe someone has to do an intervention with him”.

and thats why i was hoping he would appeal...so people could actually have a reason to get rid of mcquaid :)

although now mcquaid is trying to get wada to appeal the usada decision because of the 8 year statute of limitations...

[phreezee]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1093_10151258876950189_573612609_n.jpg

[project240]

Just bought a Livestrong Recumbent Bike at a huge discount (most likely thanks to this). A+ rating for the bike so far!