Best way to fix tile grout?

[Zero102]

In our house we have 2 bathrooms which have these white tiles around the tub, they are reasonably small (maybe 4"?) tiles with very narrow grout lines between them. In one bathroom the grout is cracking and falling out in chunks, it looks like this:

http://i.imgur.com/dWRJo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/V5OSw.jpg

Can I just use one of those grout removers, dig out the old grout and re-grout?
I am worried about a couple things:
Perhaps the grout lines are too small? That even if I re-grout it will just end up doing the same thing in a year or two?
This is in a shower that has been used frequently for 2 years (and probably before we moved in too), could there be water damage behind the tiles? There are probably 15-20 spaces where 1" or more of grout is missing, and there are 30-40 places where the grout is cracked

If I can't just dig out the grout and re-grout it, what should I do to repair the issue? I suppose I wouldn't be against removing the tile and replacing it with something different as I would like to replace the tub any way (the bottom is dented so it doesn't drain and there is a big chip on one side of it).

Thanks for any help!

[C_Dave45]

The grout is cracking because the tile are loose. Water has gotten in behind and rotting the substrate (drywall?) Re grouting won't fix anything. You'll have to replace everything.

[CapnCrunch]

I would stop using that shower as well.

[Zero102]

Ugh, well, the shower has been used frequently for 2 years and has been like that for most of the time. My wife says it was like that when we moved in, I never looked close until just very recently. Usually I am so tired when I get in the shower that unless there was a bear or something in there I would never notice anything wrong :banghead:

Guess I get to learn how to tile and replace a bathtub now! No sense just replacing the tile when it would have to come out to replace the tub and the tub is damaged anyway. I checked the rest of the tiles and about 90% of the grout on that wall is cracked, and I couldn't find any uncracked grout on the other 2 walls. Guess it is pretty bad. Thanks for the advice guys, I didn't realize it was this serious.

[C_Dave45]

You can still use the shower. Unless its drippig down below (which I doubt) you're not going to do any more damage than what's already done. You'll be replacing the tile and the board, so might as well just use it 'til you're ready to do the job.

[masoncgy]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but a friend of mine is re-tiling his tub/shower and I noticed they have plywood up vs cement board to tile over.

Isn't that a bad idea?

[superflychief]

I've got a similar cracking issue, except my tiles are on the floor. This house is almost 2 years old. We had a ton of grout crack in our upstairs bathrooms. Builder replaced the cracked grout under warranty. Now we are getting the same cracks again. Did they fuck something up in my floors (ie plywood floors flexing) or does the guy who's doing the grout mixing it improperly?

[codetrap]

So, who has dandruff?

[masoncgy]

We need an 'Ask the Tile Master' thread. Dave: get on it. :)

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by masoncgy
Perhaps a bit off topic, but a friend of mine is re-tiling his tub/shower and I noticed they have plywood up vs cement board to tile over.

Isn't that a bad idea?

Not really. If it was an enclosed steam shower, then you'd need to waterproof the plywood. But if it's just a standard tub with a shower head, then it will be fine. The very first tub/shower I did was in 1981 for my Dad. It was overtop of regular drywall, not even painted. PLain jane 6x6 wall tile. That shower is used at least twice a day and it's still standing and looks good today.


Originally posted by superflychief
I've got a similar cracking issue, except my tiles are on the floor. This house is almost 2 years old. We had a ton of grout crack in our upstairs bathrooms. Builder replaced the cracked grout under warranty. Now we are getting the same cracks again. Did they fuck something up in my floors (ie plywood floors flexing) or does the guy who's doing the grout mixing it improperly?
Nope..sounds like either the tile isn't bonding to the sub-floor (thinset skinned over, tile was dusty when dropped down) or the sub-floor isn't glued/screwed properly. But there's movement somewhere, and that's why grout is cracking. Take a golf ball...and bounce it around on the tile. You should hear a solid "clack" where it's bonded properly, and then you'll hear a completely different sound where it's not bonded. A more hollow sounding "thwack". Can do the same with your knuckle. Tap the tile, and lay your other hand flat...you should feel no vibration whatsoever from the knocking.



Originally posted by masoncgy
We need an 'Ask the Tile Master' thread. Dave: get on it. :)

Sure, Rage can sell a "service package". You buy so many "consults", and he and I can split the profits. ;)

[nzwasp]

I have a follow up question for dave regarding this. My father in law had a bathroom that looked just like this except it was every tile. It was like this for atleast 10 years. I notice on the outside wall behind the bathroom the vinyl is all warped and bubbly - could this be caused by this.

They decided to fix the issue by putting in bath fitter which was installed in 4 hours. I would think that the bath fitter guys did not remove whatever mold and shit was behind the tiles and that it is still there. Do you think they would of?

[Zero102]

Originally posted by codetrap
So, who has dandruff?

That is for me... not dandruff but I have a really dry scalp and that stuff fixes it up :dunno:

For when I get to changing this all, any tips for replacing the drywall (I should probably use concrete board?) and tiles, or for removing and replacing a cheap steel built-in tub?

Looking at materials prices it looks like it'll be a bit over $1k to replace the tile in both bathrooms and the one tub if I do all the work myself. Obviously this isn't a high end house and I won't be replacing it with anything really nice either, this is just a cookie cutter house in Royal Birch.

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by C_Dave45


Not really. If it was an enclosed steam shower, then you'd need to waterproof the plywood. But if it's just a standard tub with a shower head, then it will be fine. The very first tub/shower I did was in 1981 for my Dad. It was overtop of regular drywall, not even painted. PLain jane 6x6 wall tile. That shower is used at least twice a day and it's still standing and looks good today.


Dave, I'm confused by this. I've always been told that grout and mortar (and even the tile itself - though that seems harder to believe) are not actually waterproof. How is it that the drywall doesn't absorb any water wicking through the grout?

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by Kloubek


Dave, I'm confused by this. I've always been told that grout and mortar (and even the tile itself - though that seems harder to believe) are not actually waterproof. How is it that the drywall doesn't absorb any water wicking through the grout?

I had a similar experience when I ripped out the tile in my condo bathtub/shower that was built in 1979. There was drywall behind and it was bone dry.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Kloubek


Dave, I'm confused by this. I've always been told that grout and mortar (and even the tile itself - though that seems harder to believe) are not actually waterproof. How is it that the drywall doesn't absorb any water wicking through the grout?
The tile is waterproof, it's the grout that is not and can never be made waterproof.
But to answer your question in a word, "gravity". The grout joints on a shower wall get saturated with water, but because gravity pretty much takes all excess water away, it dries rather quickly. The tiny amount of moisture that hits the substrate is so small, and dries so quickly, that it hardly affects it.

Where it's absolutely mandatory to have a complete 100% waterproof barrier is the shower floor. Because there is nowhere for the water to go but down, the joints and whats under them will just continually get wetter and wetter. They quickly reach 100% saturation, so the water then continues on elsewhere.
A tiled shower floor has a sand & cement base (drypack) that is literally soaked almost all the time. Even after weeks no use, that drypack base will be saturated with water. So it has to have that rubber liner under it. If there is even a pinhole anywhere in that liner, the water will leak out there and destroy everything underneath that. Same with the curb. If the liner wraps that curb, but an installer has put screws or nails through it when attaching the board (even concrete board) that curb will fail rather quickly.

A steam shower is a little different in that the steam will penetrate the wall joints a little more, even the ceiling. But even there, a steam shower will last many years before failing even without a waterproof membrane around the entire thing.

[Kloubek]

The more you know...

So let me ask you this:

The dumbfuck who poured my shower pan didn't put in a pre-pan so the moisture is going to end up sitting right on the horizontal liner. If the liner is 100% intact then that should still be fine right?

I also noticed there are some small cracks in it now. Should those be sealed up at all or, like you said, the concrete gets saturated anyhow so it wouldn't make a difference? Is there anything I could put down on the pan to help make it waterproof? (I know there is a membrane you can roll on the walls before tiling....)

[C_Dave45]

^^ Yeah it won't be a problem. A pre-slope is a good idea, but the water will still drain without one. The drypack will always stay saturated, regardless.
And yeah, cracks are nothing but cosmetic. Same with the silicone around the bottom joint. All that does is keep the grout from cracking and falling out. But it serves no purpose other than that. Take a pic of the cracks and send it to me, just to be sure.

[Kloubek]

Here's a picture of the cracks:
http://www3.telus.net/kloubek/IMG_0123.JPG

Here's just a shot to show what an amazing job they did.
http://www3.telus.net/kloubek/IMG_0124.JPG

It's a bit hard to see, but the entire corner is crushed and powdered. You'll also see they used standard drywall compound for the mudding, and not entirely sure they used the right tape either.

So I guess my final questions (if you don't mind) are:
1) How do I shore up the corner? As it is at the bottom, I think I'm best off doing something to waterproof it after I fill it with whatever I fill it with.
2) Being that they used regular drywall compound for the taping, should I use that membrane stuff over everything just to be sure?

[C_Dave45]

Hmm...very strange "drypack" he used. Looks more like he just used a concrete mix, very wet. It will still work...but right away that tells me he's a self-taught, DIY'er. How's the slope? Pour a good 5 gallons of water in there, and see how it drains. Even better would be to completely block the drain and fill up the pan to a couple of inches or so of water and let that sit for a few days, to make sure there's no leaks anywhere.
Also, how did he do the curb? Can you show me a picture of it? Did you watch him put the rubber liner in?

[Zero102]

For fixing my issue, should I just tear the tile out and the drywall behind it, then replace it with new drywall and re-tile after I have replaced the tub? I figure I should at least use the moisture resistant drywall (though I doubt the builder used anything that wasn't absolutely required the first time), but is there any advantage of going to concrete board or something else here? If I do, what is the procedure for joining that to regular drywall when I get up to the ceiling?

[Kloubek]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Hmm...very strange "drypack" he used. Looks more like he just used a concrete mix, very wet. It will still work...but right away that tells me he's a self-taught, DIY'er. How's the slope? Pour a good 5 gallons of water in there, and see how it drains. Even better would be to completely block the drain and fill up the pan to a couple of inches or so of water and let that sit for a few days, to make sure there's no leaks anywhere.
Also, how did he do the curb? Can you show me a picture of it? Did you watch him put the rubber liner in?

It was totally wet concrete mix.

There is a slope- and although it's pretty gradual I think that is all it needs for water to drain. I would think when the tiles go on the mortar can also be adjusted just a little to be deeper on the edges to help drainage.
I will do a water test before tiling. Already on the agenda, but thanks for the heads-up.

I did see the membrane go up and over the curb to the other side. That much I'm comfortable with. What I'm *not* comfortable with, however, is the fact the dumbass then covered it in the cement board... which is fine in itself I think, but to secure it, he drilled screws into the wall about 1 1/2 inches off the pan. This obviously compromises the entire point of the membrane being over the curb in the first place.

It is for reasons like this that I think it would be in my best interests to place a roll-on membrane over all walls, all the way down to the pan.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Kloubek


It was totally wet concrete mix.

There is a slope- and although it's pretty gradual I think that is all it needs for water to drain. I would think when the tiles go on the mortar can also be adjusted just a little to be deeper on the edges to help drainage.
I will do a water test before tiling. Already on the agenda, but thanks for the heads-up.

I did see the membrane go up and over the curb to the other side. That much I'm comfortable with. What I'm *not* comfortable with, however, is the fact the dumbass then covered it in the cement board... which is fine in itself I think, but to secure it, he drilled screws into the wall about 1 1/2 inches off the pan. This obviously compromises the entire point of the membrane being over the curb in the first place.

It is for reasons like this that I think it would be in my best interests to place a roll-on membrane over all walls, all the way down to the pan.

Yup, right there, he just ruined the integrity of the membrane. So, yes, put some paint-on membrane over everything. Especially over the curb area.

[C_Dave45]

This is what the mud should look like: (Dry...hence the name "dry-pack")

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o312/CalgaryDave/7F7F12EA-A20B-49D7-AC5C-BE3B17E23E4C-5660-000003DAEEEAC070.jpg

[Zero102]

Year-old bump!

I'm finally ready to move ahead with repairing this. The plan is as follows:
Rip out the old tile, drywall and damaged tub. Replace the tub with something deeper, put up concrete board and re-tile, then possibly repaint the whole bathroom (we have some matching paint still so changing the colour is not necessary).

Neither my wife nor I have any sort of eye for design or style and I feel like I would probably pick something that nobody else in the world would like which would be a bad decision when it comes time to sell the house so I was hoping I might solicit some advice on here about what tiles to pick (and maybe wall colour if I should change it).

Here is a picture of the bathroom that will be renovated:
http://i.imgur.com/ScFur4ol.jpg

It is currently just square (6x6?) white tiles with white grout and a white tub, with a white toilet and a maple vanity with a really shitty bland beige countertop.

I'd prefer not to change the cabinet itself since it matches the kitchen cabinets and some others in the house but could change the countertop to match the new tiles. We have 2 bathrooms of similar design on this floor and to make things match we'll buy matching bits for the other bathroom to be done in the near future.

As for tile I haven't any idea what would look best but we're good up to about $10-$15/square foot average for tiles, we would need about 100-110 square feet for both bathrooms I think. I have scoured the tile threads in this forum and tracked down a few stores that we will hit up this week to see if anything catches our eye, but honestly, we have no sense of style at all, so please help us not make a bad decision :)

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102
Year-old bump!

I'm finally ready to move ahead with repairing this. The plan is as follows:
Rip out the old tile, drywall and damaged tub. Replace the tub with something deeper, put up concrete board and re-tile, then possibly repaint the whole bathroom (we have some matching paint still so changing the colour is not necessary).

Neither my wife nor I have any sort of eye for design or style and I feel like I would probably pick something that nobody else in the world would like which would be a bad decision when it comes time to sell the house so I was hoping I might solicit some advice on here about what tiles to pick (and maybe wall colour if I should change it).


It is currently just square (6x6?) white tiles with white grout and a white tub, with a white toilet and a maple vanity with a really shitty bland beige countertop.

I'd prefer not to change the cabinet itself since it matches the kitchen cabinets and some others in the house but could change the countertop to match the new tiles. We have 2 bathrooms of similar design on this floor and to make things match we'll buy matching bits for the other bathroom to be done in the near future.

As for tile I haven't any idea what would look best but we're good up to about $10-$15/square foot average for tiles, we would need about 100-110 square feet for both bathrooms I think. I have scoured the tile threads in this forum and tracked down a few stores that we will hit up this week to see if anything catches our eye, but honestly, we have no sense of style at all, so please help us not make a bad decision :)

I can give you a couple of suggestions as to your reno plans. First, I'd use Denshield instead of concrete board. It's MUCH easier to work with (cuts just like drywall), is about the same cost as CBU (Cementious Backer Unit), and already has a built in waterproof membrane that's backed by a 25 year manufacturer warranty. Realistically speaking though...a regular tub/shower unit like that, without a window...you really don't need to worry about waterproofing.

Secondly; I can point you to the tile wholesaler showrooms, instead of retailers. Retailers will often have the same tile from the wholesalers, so you're often looking at the same tile in different stores. Going straight to the wholesalers, you bypass that headache. Some will sell straight to the public, but it will still be roughly the same price.

As far as WHAT tile to pick...well, now you're asking for a tall order. It's like saying "what colour should I paint my car?". Literally the choices are in the hundreds of thousands. I never claim to be a designer, and hence leave that up to the professionals. If hiring a designer is out of the budget (on small jobs it usually is) then just seeing what's out there, looking through bathroom magazine pictures, and deciding what you like is the best. Don't try to be too fancy, or pick too many different tiles. $10-15/sf of tile is plenty...but keep in mind, unless you're doing the install yourself, a good rule of thumb for higher end tile is: tile labour will equal tile material cost. (Except when it comes to Home Depot's $2.99 travertine marble. $15/sq ft labour for that stuff)

[Alterac]

I'm one of those Dreaded DIY'er's :D but I try to do everything as proper as possible, (through advice from tradesmen, or researching everything, any input is also appreciated).

I do like that Densshield stuff, they sell it in some smaller panels so you can buy 4, and do a tub (1 for front, 1 for back both vertical, and 2 for the back wall horizontal). It is made with fibreglass and they recommend a breathing mask / safety glasses.

As far as boarding, make sure the Densshield is resting on the lip of the tub, not over it. If its over the lip, the tile job is harder to do, and can possibly wick water up the board from the bottom if its too close to the tub and the silicone job isn't up to par.

As far as tile, I'm the most basic guy ever. 6x6 white.. Its dirt cheap, and easy to work with.


Replace the tub/tile's etc, and then decide on the countertop :D try to keep the reno as small as possible to keep things going and spirits high.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Alterac


As far as boarding, make sure the Densshield is resting on the lip of the tub, not over it. If its over the lip, the tile job is harder to do, and can possibly wick water up the board from the bottom if its too close to the tub and the silicone job isn't up to par.

Greatest DIY advice EVAR!!! You'd be surprised how many so-called "professional" borders will bring the board right down tight onto the tub. Drives me INSANE!!!!! I have to cut off the bottom 1" and then re-screw the board tight into the studs. SO annoying.

http://www.showroom411.com/Media/CMS/2010/tub%20flange%20cross%20section.jpg

[Zero102]

Does the waterproof membrane in densshield cause a problem if I have vapour barrier immediately behind the board? Back wall of each tub is an outside wall and there had better be vapour barrier back there! Where is the best place to pick the board up?

I've been reading about installing cement board and I know to keep it up off the lip of the tub and keep mortar out of the gap, however I have seem some different opinions about what to do with the overlap and adhering the tiles to the tub. Some say not to adhere the tiles to the tub to allow for some movement (only silicone the bottom edge) and some say to use kerdi-fix or other adhesives to affix the tile to the tub (not thinset). Any opinion on this? The first idea sounded the most sensible to me.

I have done some searching and it seems the recommended places to go for tiles are:
Ames, Tierra Sol, Euro Tile, Olympia, Julian Tile

Is 110 square feet too small of an order for these places? It seems like a lot of money to me but I'm sure I am still extremely small to them.

I was planning to DIY the install so installation charges aren't a concern. I have done some drywall and other finishing work and I feel like I have a fighting chance of doing a passable job given that this is just a cookie cutter house and everything is flat walls with 90* (well, close to 90*) corners.

Thanks for all the advice!

[Zero102]

Originally posted by Alterac
I'm one of those Dreaded DIY'er's :D but I try to do everything as proper as possible, (through advice from tradesmen, or researching everything, any input is also appreciated).

I do like that Densshield stuff, they sell it in some smaller panels so you can buy 4, and do a tub (1 for front, 1 for back both vertical, and 2 for the back wall horizontal). It is made with fibreglass and they recommend a breathing mask / safety glasses.

As far as boarding, make sure the Densshield is resting on the lip of the tub, not over it. If its over the lip, the tile job is harder to do, and can possibly wick water up the board from the bottom if its too close to the tub and the silicone job isn't up to par.

As far as tile, I'm the most basic guy ever. 6x6 white.. Its dirt cheap, and easy to work with.


Replace the tub/tile's etc, and then decide on the countertop :D try to keep the reno as small as possible to keep things going and spirits high.

I have 6x6 white right now and would like to dress it up a little bit more. I figure why just fix it if I can make it a little bit better? I seem to have a terrible sense of colour or something, I always end up picking something really close to looking good but just a bit off. Hopefully if I hit up some of the showrooms with a picture of my bathroom in hand I can hold it up beside the tiles and figure out what will look good. I would prefer not to replace the countertop for cost reasons but if it really doesn't match the tiles I'm perfectly happy to replace the countertops as well as they are really crappy and cheap.

The budget for tiles for both bathrooms, both countertops and installation materials for the one bathroom is about $2000-2500 which I am hoping is reasonable.

I have a couple relatives that can come by to help and I have allocated 9 days for the job (I'm hoping to finish in way less than that but I booked the extra time off just to be safe) that they are also available for. We are only planning on doing the one bathroom right now, the other one isn't cracked yet so we'll tackle it over the summer perhaps.

I still need to figure out how to get the old tub out of there (it goes from wall to wall), I'm mostly worried about how to disconnect / reconnect the drains without having to cut a hole in the wall on the other side, or in the ceiling below. I know I'll probably have to relocate the drain but that doesn't sound hard once the tub is out.

I'll be pulling the toilet to get some extra working room, but I'm hoping to leave the vanity in place.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102
Does the waterproof membrane in densshield cause a problem if I have vapour barrier immediately behind the board? Back wall of each tub is an outside wall and there had better be vapour barrier back there! Where is the best place to pick the board up?

I've been reading about installing cement board and I know to keep it up off the lip of the tub and keep mortar out of the gap, however I have seem some different opinions about what to do with the overlap and adhering the tiles to the tub. Some say not to adhere the tiles to the tub to allow for some movement (only silicone the bottom edge) and some say to use kerdi-fix or other adhesives to affix the tile to the tub (not thinset). Any opinion on this? The first idea sounded the most sensible to me.

I have done some searching and it seems the recommended places to go for tiles are:
Ames, Tierra Sol, Euro Tile, Olympia, Julian Tile

Is 110 square feet too small of an order for these places? It seems like a lot of money to me but I'm sure I am still extremely small to them.


Technically Georgia Pacific says NO vapour barrier behind Denshield, but every builder I know who uses it, will always leave the poly on, on exterior walls. Take it for what it's worth.
Don't know if you'd ever really have a problem either way. Home Depot carries the smaller 3x5 sheets. A drywall place will have the full 4x8 sheets. Either place works out to around a buck a foot.

I just rest the tile on the tub deck, leaving a 1" space behind it. I don't fill it with anything. I grout like normal, and caulk with a bead of silicone when done.

Ames and Julian will sell directly to public, as little as 1 square foot if you want. Tierra Sol will sell their "clearance area" tile to the public, but for any current stock, you'll have to buy through a contractor. (They've completely revamped all staff and policies, so that might have changed recently).
Olympia won't sell to the public. You can easily get nice looking porcelain for under $5/sq ft. $10-15 and you're looking at natural stone, granite, marble, etc. Much harder to install.

110 sq ft...I take it thats for both the splash AND the floor? 75 plus 35?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102


The budget for tiles for both bathrooms, both countertops and installation materials for the one bathroom is about $2000-2500 which I am hoping is reasonable.

(snip)

I still need to figure out how to get the old tub out of there (it goes from wall to wall), I'm mostly worried about how to disconnect / reconnect the drains without having to cut a hole in the wall on the other side, or in the ceiling below. I know I'll probably have to relocate the drain but that doesn't sound hard once the tub is out.

I'll be pulling the toilet to get some extra working room, but I'm hoping to leave the vanity in place.

For each bathroom:

110 sq ft @ $10/ft = $1,000 (will include all your glue/thinset/grout/schluter too)
New tub: = $400
Drain, taps, hardware = $300
Countertop = $200

Gives you a rough idea. To take the tub out, you will probably have to just cut out the two studs on one end wall to about 24". Tip the tub up vertical and take it out. Reverse procedure with the new tub. Shouldn't have to relocate the drain position at all.
http://www.house-improvements.com/images/bathroom/tub-removal.jpg


You can leave the vanity in place, but when you remove your existing vinyl, you'll be taking up the K3 under it as well. Just use a chisel under the "kicks" of the cabinet, and you can easily snap the K3 off close to the kick. Put down new 3/8th's ply up against the old K3. Doesn't have to be a perfect fit. Any voids you can just fill with thinset.

[Zero102]

I hadn't planned on tiling the floor, just the walls, the existing tile comes out past the tub a little bit and I expected to make a mistake or two so I get 50 square feet per tub surround plus mistakes or pieces that I can't use the whole one, so maybe 55 per tub.

I am thinking just porcelain, not stone for the wall tiles.

Now you have me thinking about doing the floor too, argh! More expense, but again, why not upgrade? I was thinking since the new tub is a bit bigger than the old one the flooring would stay.

The tap/spout/shower head are all going back in, we like what is there now and I just replaced the internals this year so they have lots of life left I hope.

When you say cut the studs up 24", do you mean remove the stud completely to that height? Could be tricky since there is drywall on the other side, or will I just be notching them? Do the drain lines stay in place when I lift the tub, or do they come with the tub? I thought they came up with the tub and I'd have to be a ninja of some sort to get them separated nicely and to fit the new ones.

Thanks so much for the advice! We'll be hitting up the tile stores tomorrow with any luck.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102
I hadn't planned on tiling the floor, just the walls, the existing tile comes out past the tub a little bit and I expected to make a mistake or two so I get 50 square feet per tub surround plus mistakes or pieces that I can't use the whole one, so maybe 55 per tub.

I am thinking just porcelain, not stone for the wall tiles.

Now you have me thinking about doing the floor too, argh! More expense, but again, why not upgrade? I was thinking since the new tub is a bit bigger than the old one the flooring would stay.

The tap/spout/shower head are all going back in, we like what is there now and I just replaced the internals this year so they have lots of life left I hope.

When you say cut the studs up 24", do you mean remove the stud completely to that height? Could be tricky since there is drywall on the other side, or will I just be notching them? Do the drain lines stay in place when I lift the tub, or do they come with the tub? I thought they came up with the tub and I'd have to be a ninja of some sort to get them separated nicely and to fit the new ones.

Thanks so much for the advice! We'll be hitting up the tile stores tomorrow with any luck.

If you're going to that much work, I'd do the floors as well. It's only 35 sq ft. You CAN tile directly onto the vinyl...but if you ever have a flooded toilet, it will blow them, as well it will put them above your carpet level.

100 feet per bathroom should give you lots. And like I said, can easily find a nice porcelain for under $5. Even decent "builder series" porcelain for $2.79 per foot. Don't do the "horizontal eye-level border" though...it's SO "90's". Do a vertical strip if you want some sort of accent. If you browse through this thread, you'll find some really funky designs: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=70412

You disconnect the tub drain with this tool:

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/6/7/1/1/2/5/webimg/521771920_tp.jpg

Just unscrew counterclockwise. There are a few good youtube vids on how to remove a tub.

Yes, cutting them completely out, you might be able to just notch them, but I found it easier to take them out, then scab them back in after new tub is in place. You might pull a screw or two out from the wall in the next room.

[Alterac]

When you have all the walls down, re-insulate it. Especially the outside wall.
This helps out a fair bit with the cold wall problem, and the noise from the shower. (fixtures, water running, and adventure time).


You could stick with white 6x6 but do a vertical feature line or run of some glass tiles or something else to spice it up if you want to keep it easy :D

EDIT- I like the 90's Horizontal line! :D

[C_Dave45]

Or if you really want to be blown away....this thread:

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31546




http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=155699&stc=1&d=1387423395

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=146354&stc=1&d=1371584570

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=134095&stc=1&d=1355018685

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=131860&stc=1&d=1351467546

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=129381&stc=1&d=1348267019

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/164206_556374407757157_344684146_n.jpg?lvh=1

[Zero102]

Oh man, alright, I think I'm convinced, we'll do the floor too. It would be preferable to remove the vanity to do this job right? I haven't even started researching floor tiling, all of what I've been reading is about preparing walls so far, I need a membrane on the floor over the plywood right? Just rip up the subfloor and replace with plywood, apply membrane, tile over top, then fit the tub and the vanity on top of the tiles? Run the tiles just under the edges of both?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102
Oh man, alright, I think I'm convinced, we'll do the floor too. It would be preferable to remove the vanity to do this job right? I haven't even started researching floor tiling, all of what I've been reading is about preparing walls so far, I need a membrane on the floor over the plywood right? Just rip up the subfloor and replace with plywood, apply membrane, tile over top, then fit the tub and the vanity on top of the tiles? Run the tiles just under the edges of both? You don't need a membrane. new 3/8th's ply is all you need. You CAN remove the vanity...I always just leave in place and tile up to the kicks. Then tile the kicks.

If you REALLY want to ad flair...put in heated flooring!!! $500!!!

:drool:

[Zero102]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
If you're going to that much work, I'd do the floors as well. It's only 35 sq ft. You CAN tile directly onto the vinyl...but if you ever have a flooded toilet, it will blow them, as well it will put them above your carpet level.

100 feet per bathroom should give you lots. And like I said, can easily find a nice porcelain for under $5. Even decent "builder series" porcelain for $2.79 per foot. Don't do the "horizontal eye-level border" though...it's SO "90's". Do a vertical strip if you want some sort of accent. If you browse through this thread, you'll find some really funky designs: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=70412


See, this is exactly the sort of mistake I would have made. I was considering doing a horizontal eye level border.... Thinking back it's because we had them in the house I lived in through that exact time period. Thanks for linking the thread, I'm finding a lot of things I like in there :)

For the drain, good to know they stay put when the tub is removed, that solves one of my biggest remaining concerns. I never saw it mentioned in the "how to remove a bathtub" articles I was reading so I was hoping that was the case. We're planning on going to a soaker tub so I'll have to relocate the overflow but that is no big deal.


Originally posted by C_Dave45

Yes, cutting them completely out, you might be able to just notch them, but I found it easier to take them out, then scab them back in after new tub is in place. You might pull a screw or two out from the wall in the next room.

Cool, thanks!


Do you have any thoughts on acrylic tubs versus steel ones, and what about support underneath the bottom of the tub? The current tub is steel and has a big dip in the bottom of it so it holds a bunch of water once it is drained. I want to make sure that never happens again.

[C_Dave45]

The overflow is connected to the tub drain. All done before you even put in the new tub. No drain re-location needed.

Acrylic all the way!! Don't go steel!! (just don't buy the $249 acrylic specials...pure crap) You'll want to spend at least $300-400. No supports needed...you screw them into the studs via the flange. You can put up a horizontal 2x4 against the studs that will sit just underneath the tub deck (against the back wall). That will hold it, then make the finer level adjustments for when you screw the flange in.



PmYLGRsg-m0

[Zero102]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
You don't need a membrane. new 3/8th's ply is all you need. You CAN remove the vanity...I always just leave in place and tile up to the kicks. Then tile the kicks.

If you REALLY want to ad flair...put in heated flooring!!! $500!!!

:drool:

Haha heated floors would be nice but to be fully up to code I'd have to run a new circuit up from the basement as this one is fully loaded already, and there is no easy way to get from this bathroom to the panel without opening some finished walls. I could always do the not up to code thing and just run it off the lighting circuit that is already there... :devil: I wonder just how much power it takes

My wife seems pretty sold on the tile floor now that we've talked about it, our only remaining concern about the floor is that they are cold, heated flooring would fix that. I hadn't considered just leaving the vanity in. That seems like less work, though the effort savings in not removing it may be lost in trying to cut the subfloor around it. I guess I'll leave it at: If we replace the countertop we'll pull the vanity.

Is it really $500 for 25-30 square feet of heated floor? That seems steep, but may still be worth it. You know what they say about a happy wife.

What are your thoughts about building in a ledge or a recess for storing bottles or soap and such in the shower? Good idea? Should they be on the same wall as the shower head or on the back wall?


Thanks again for all the help, your advice has been invaluable, sorry to burn up so much of your time!

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102

Is it really $500 for 25-30 square feet of heated floor? That seems steep, but may still be worth it. You know what they say about a happy wife.

What are your thoughts about building in a ledge or a recess for storing bottles or soap and such in the shower? Good idea? Should they be on the same wall as the shower head or on the back wall?
Thanks again for all the help, your advice has been invaluable, sorry to burn up so much of your time!

A 25 sq ft wiring kit is around $190. The thermostat is around $180. A Bag of self levelling is around $50. So If you do it yourself, you'll be at around $420. Then it's best to get a sparky to wire it...so, plus whatever he will cost you.
A 25 sq ft kit will draw 300 watts or 2.5 amps.

YES!! A wall "niche" is a very good idea. Buy the pre-made ones from Schluter. Very easy to install, and only $49.95 for a 12"x12" at Ames. You can get larger ones for slightly more. Home Depot or Rona MIGHT carry them as well....I'm not sure.

http://www.schluter.com/news-release-kerdi-board-sn.aspx


http://hi.atgimg.com/img/x/14760/4011832142512_ca.jpg

http://tileliving.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/K/E/KERDIBoard_SN_12x20_1.jpg

[Zero102]

I did 4 years of electrical so I'm good with wiring up a heated floor. I'll take count of how many outlets are on that circuit and see if it can take one more. Thanks for breaking the cost down for me, although I've helped install heated floors before I've never had to pay for them :)

Cool - I didn't know pre-made niches existed, I didn't really want to make them myself and risk having standing water or leaky corners! At $50 they seem really worthwhile. Given my situation, what walls can I put them on?... The back wall of the tub/shower is an outside wall so it's 2x6, but it is also insulated with vapour barrier in it. The wall with the shower head is only 2x4 and already has the water pipe for the shower head running straight up through where the niche should go. The far wall doesn't seem as useful of a place to put it, although maybe I don't think like the rest of the world and it is the right place.

Should I just modify the vapour barrier to allow it to fit, compress the insulation a bit and put it on the outside wall, or should I relocate the water pipe to allow me to put it under the shower head? I think it makes the most sense to have it on the outside wall but I am worried about the niche having condensation problems or something as a result of compressing some of the insulation.

Thanks again for all of the advice

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102
Given my situation, what walls can I put them on?... The back wall of the tub/shower is an outside wall so it's 2x6, but it is also insulated with vapour barrier in it. The wall with the shower head is only 2x4 and already has the water pipe for the shower head running straight up through where the niche should go. The far wall doesn't seem as useful of a place to put it, although maybe I don't think like the rest of the world and it is the right place.

Should I just modify the vapour barrier to allow it to fit, compress the insulation a bit and put it on the outside wall, or should I relocate the water pipe to allow me to put it under the shower head? I think it makes the most sense to have it on the outside wall but I am worried about the niche having condensation problems or something as a result of compressing some of the insulation.

Thanks again for all of the advice

All personal choice. I've always put mine on the end wall OPPOSITE the shower head. But have also put them on the back wall. Being an exterior wall, I'd just compress the fibreglass, or even tear a bit out to receive the niche. It's solid foam anyways, so it has some insulating qualities. You're only talking a square foot. So it's minimal. And just cut the vapour barrier. Specs say no vapour barrier behind the Denshield anyways, so you're not violating any code.

[prae]

This thread rocks. Lots of great advice- some of which I knew before I started into my bathroom reno- and some stuff i WISH I knew before starting :)

[Zero102]

We have picked floor tiles and wall tiles and our accent pieces, we've picked a tub and all of the bits should be in our hands next week some time. Thanks again for all the advice so far it has been very valuable.

I have been reading forum after forum as well as things like the Ditra installation manual trying to figure out just what I require and I'm a little bit unclear - I was hoping you might lend some more advice.

My question is about the floor, we have selected some 30x60cm 10mm thick porcelain tiles for the floor. I was planning on using Ditra under the tiles so I read the Ditra installation manual to figure out what I need to do to the floor before installing tile. The requirements seem to change depending on the joist spacing and I am not sure how to determine this before I pull up the vinyl floor. On one section that I can see from the basement of the main floor the joist spacing is 16", and in the bonus room the spacing is 16" however we are tiling an upstairs bathroom - will the joist spacing be the same there? Can I safely assume 16" or do I have to rip up the existing floor before I will know? The house is from the early 2000s and was built by Beattie if that matters.

The Ditra manual says I only need 5/8" tongue and groove floor, then modified portland cement, then the Ditra, then unmodified thinset then the tiles. Is this really okay?

I guess I'm just asking because I keep reading that you need 1 1/4" of wood under the floor. I don't want the tiles to be way above the carpet level, but more than that I don't want the floor to crack.

The joists only run a little under 6' between supports for the bathroom and the floor is exceptionally solid in this part of the house (lucky for me) if that matters.

Thanks!

[Zero102]

I did some more reading and it seems 16" floor joist spacing is a little uncommon, especially on "value" built houses (cheap) like mine, so I did some more digging in my house... 24" joists everywhere except the last 4 on one side of the house. It just so happens that from the furnace room the only joists you can see are all 14" apart, but if you climb way up behind the furnace and peek through the ceiling it becomes apparent the rest of the house is 24" spacing. I guess you never can assume the whole floor is laid out the same because you can see one part of it.

Seems I have 24" joist spacing and I'll have to assume that is on the second floor as well. I guess this means I'm bringing up the tile floor by adding some more plywood for rigidity. Any tips for making a decent transition from the lower carpet to the tile floor? Depending on the thickness of the K3 under the vinyl I think I'll have about a 3/8-1/2" rise going from the carpet to the tile. I was originally planning on tucking the carpet down like this (not my pic):

http://admin.twopennies.net/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/25/extremecloseup.jpg

It seems I'll have to use something like this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VWk1krHRL._SS270_.jpg

But that needs to be installed before the tiles (and maybe before the Ditra?) so when I replace the carpet a couple years down the road that I won't be able to remove the transition strip so that I can raise the subfloor for the carpet and make a smooth transition.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102

The Ditra manual says I only need 5/8" tongue and groove floor, then modified portland cement, then the Ditra, then unmodified thinset then the tiles. Is this really okay?


Yes, that's all you need. Modified thinset under, non-modified on top.

You can either use Ditra, or 3/8th's ply on top of the OSB (your 5/8th's T&G). If you use Ditra, use the "Ditra XL"...it's a little thicker, same price.

[Zero102]

Was it ever allowed within Calgary building code to install tile on a tub surround over green drywall?

I just tore out the bathroom today and the bottom 3 feet of the back wall was completely black with mold, after many days of non-use the drywall was still completely soaked and soft, the tub flange had nearly rusted off the damn tub and all the fasteners were just blobs of rust, not nails or screws any more. I have half a mind to take this big moldy piece of shit and drop it on Beattie's doorstep.

[Zero102]

Here are a couple pics of the mold inside the wall. We've got it all ripped out, cleaned up, new tub is in and tested, vapour barrier repaired, tile backerboard is up. Adding plywood to the floor and starting the tiles tomorrow. What a job!
http://i.imgur.com/UmyJCnY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TG4wzhM.jpg

[Khyron]

If anything, this thread is telling me to NOT do mine myself and call C_Dave45 instead. :P

We have to do the ensuite (original jetted tub leaks if you fill it) but can't decide if we keep the tub/shower style or go for a stand up unit. We never use a bath but resale resale resale.

[Zero102]

Well the bathroom is finally finished. Well, almost finished. It's still missing a mirror - I need to cut 23mm off the mirror because the vanity is higher and I'm just waiting on a family member who has some experience doing this so I don't fuck it up. Stupid me didn't take any pictures between finishing the bathroom and jamming all of our stuff back in it so it could be used again so to avoid posting pics of a messy bathroom I'll post messy construction pictures :)

In total it took me from Saturday morning one week until Monday morning 1 week later (10 days total) with 1 day off while the mortar on the floor cured, then 3 evenings and about 5 hours over last weekend. Counting the helpers I had on the demolition day I'd say it took about 115-120 man hours in total.

It would have been about 15 hours faster but I stupidly pushed the mosaic tile into the mortar a bit too hard and it squeezed out between the tiles, then since I had to tape it to the adjacent tiles to keep it from sliding down and getting out of alignment I couldn't dig most of the mortar out right away. I figured that once it set it would be the same regardless of how long it sat so I didn't get around to scraping it out until about 36 hours later. It took about 15 hours with dental picks, hacksaw blades and a utility knife to clear the grout lines on ~3 square feet of mosaic tile. I should have just smashed them out and started over :(

Took the shower for a test drive last night and so far everything is good. Going from a 30" wide tub to a 32" wide tub makes it feel a LOT bigger, and the tile pattern (despite being only 1" taller than the old tiles) looks so much bigger. The bathroom feels spacious and completely different and at the end of it all I get to say that I did it :)

http://i.imgur.com/YxvvwzT.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SGvNgdz.jpg

*EDIT* Just looked at those pics on my computer, ugh, they are all out of focus, sorry

[Alterac]

Looks good, we need some finished pics! :D

[J.M.]

More pics please!

[Zero102]

http://i.imgur.com/D4NYq1Q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/l4u8DYK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rIGMVNx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Nd6GZd0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/J5Fawkr.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aeTODo1.jpg

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102


In total it took me from Saturday morning one week until Monday morning 1 week later (10 days total) with 1 day off while the mortar on the floor cured, then 3 evenings and about 5 hours over last weekend. Counting the helpers I had on the demolition day I'd say it took about 115-120 man hours in total.


Very nice job, Zero!! Joints look straight and consistent. Floor, nice and flat.
For the glass mosaic tile, a neat trick is to use a 1/8" "Wedi board". Cut it into the width of your strip, thinset the glass to that board using a small V-notch, and then install the board onto the wall with thinset. That will bring it flush to the field tile and you won't have thinset oozing up between the joints.

Btw....for me to be competitive, that job would be around 24-30 man hours, tops. A 3 day job for one guy.
But on the bright side, you saved yourself around $2500 in labour!!

Pat yourself on the back. Feels good doesn't it. Great job. :thumbsup:

[Zero102]

Thanks! Your help has been invaluable, really, I would never have started if it wasn't for your advice.

Do you mean the tile work would be 24-30 man hours, or the whole bathroom reno? If it's the latter I feel slow ;)

That is a great tip for the mosaic tile! I thought of it the other way around and that is probably why I had trouble - I knew the glass mosaic was thinner than the wall tile so I put up a strip of Ditra on the wall (since I had some for the floor anyway) when I put up the wall tiles, then came back later and put the mosaic over it. Unfortunately this was still about 1-2mm shy of the face of the wall tiles so I had to put up a bit more mortar than I wanted when adhering the mosaic, that combined with the amount of mortar that gets down into the recesses of the Ditra made the whole thing a bit squishy (and I probably mixed this mortar a bit too thin) and the whole thing started to go pear shaped on me about halfway through. I had 2 sheets of the mosaic up when I noticed it was sliding down the wall and buckling so I frantically grabbed a roll of tuct tape and started taping the mosaic to the adjacent tiles to hold it up. Then the tuct tape wouldn't stick to any wet or slightly mortar-y tiles and I had to scrub the mosaic tiles clean and dry them while they were trying to slide down the wall, and one sheet I had to remove to clean since it was just too covered.

Looking at the pictures now I can see that I basically took a picture of almost every problem with the tile work I did :( I think they're the sort of things that I know about and will always see, but very few of them will be noticed by others.

[C_Dave45]

No, the whole thing. Day one, demo everything. Day two install tub, plumbing, boarding and Floor prep. Day three setting walls and floor. 1/2 day grouting everything up.
But for a DIY, your timeline is average.

Ummm...hate to tell you this, but Ditra is not meant for wall tile, and especially not glass mosaics. Ditra is strictly an uncoupling membrane, meant for floors. Using it for wall tile, you run the risk of the thinset not filling the dovetails properly, because of gravity and sagging, and therefore you don't get a proper bond. You might be okay...but if you start to get cracking grout, that will be the reason.

[Zero102]

I got the ditra idea from a tile forum - I didn't know it was not recommended for this purpose. :(

I made sure to fill all of the pockets when I put the mosaic tile up but I'll be sure to watch it for any signs of cracking. I have more mosaic tiles and more of the epoxy grout and can re-do that stretch if there are any signs of trouble. Thanks :) I won't use Ditra for this when I do the other bathroom.

Damn, now I'm wondering just how well adhered the Ditra will be to the wall - will the whole strip of Ditra come down one day...?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Zero102
I got the ditra idea from a tile forum - I didn't know it was not recommended for this purpose. :(

I made sure to fill all of the pockets when I put the mosaic tile up but I'll be sure to watch it for any signs of cracking. I have more mosaic tiles and more of the epoxy grout and can re-do that stretch if there are any signs of trouble. Thanks :) I won't use Ditra for this when I do the other bathroom.

Damn, now I'm wondering just how well adhered the Ditra will be to the wall - will the whole strip of Ditra come down one day...?

If you need to build-up mosaic tile use Wedi board. It comes in 1/8th" thickness. You can buy it at Julian tile or Shamrock Flooring.
There's no problem with the Ditra sticking to your wall...it's the glass tile sticking to the Ditra. Thinset does not "glue" to the Ditra. It is strictly a mechanical bond. The strength comes from a large area of tile "grabbing" onto the dovetail waffles. A small 1x1 tile isn't large enough for a good bond, if it's sitting over top of the ridges of the Ditra. Plus if you used modified thinset, it needs air to cure, and the glass combined with the Ditra, it wont reach a full cure.

[Cos]

.

[C_Dave45]

Sorry, didn't see this.

A 3/4" piece of missing grout sounds like the tile isn't bonding, the grout is cracking and coming out. A dog could never dig out a chunk of grout like that. Take a good close up picture of it and show me. If there are other tiny cracks in the same area in the grout, then the tile is loose.

To re&re hardwood with porcelain "plank" tile is a great idea. But here are some rough "costs" to consider:

Remove existing hardwood: $3/sq ft
Good plank tile: $7-12/sq ft
Sub flooring: $3.50/sq ft
install costs: $6/sq ft.

I'm wanting to do the same to my place. Unfortunately I've got 2,000 sq ft of it. Even with free labour I'm looking at a $20k!! :eek: