Acceptable Window Install?

[the_man]

So I had custom windows made for my house, and they have almost been completely installed, but the gap between the window and wood frame seems a little to large to me. I'm thinking I'm going to call the window company to complain.

I took a measuring tape, and it looks like some of the gaps are approx 2" on each side. I did some internet searching and it seems 1" is what most people deem acceptable. Do you guys have any input?

I've attached some photos for more info:

[the_man]

pic 2

[the_man]

pic 3

[the_man]

pic 4

[95teetee]

is 2" acceptable- yes and no. In a lot of renovations. the window is made to fit the outside (brickmold-style installs) and sometimes the gap can be that much, or more.
In this case, because it's an insert, I would say no- I'm not really sure why they even installed it that way, and how they plan to finish it- where I worked, we would have made a brickmold window that fit that opening, and it would have been probably three inches bigger each way.

[95teetee]

here's a quick photoshop of what I mean (the window is distorted because I couldn't find a pic with the right proportions, but you can see what I mean

http://i46.tinypic.com/idb1mw.jpg


that said, if the installers are finishing around the exterior and interior, they may have something in mind for completing the work which will make it look alright- you'll lose a little daylight area, but the finished effect will probably look fine (if that's their plan).

Btw, when I was doing it, it wasn't extremely unusual to have something like that- if, that is, there was some reason we couldn't get in there to get more exact measurements- there were several cases where we made the windows slightly smaller (to make sure they'd fit) and then finished around them.

edit- this p/s may show more what I mean:
http://i46.tinypic.com/2954snt.jpg

[the_man]

Thanks for the input, greatly appreciated. Seems like you have a lot of knowledge on this.

So if you were in my situation, what would you do?

[Tik-Tok]

I would call the manufacturer and ask what the max they recommend is.

[the_man]

Thanks for the suggestion, I wrote to the manufacturer, I'll keep everyone posted what they say.

[95teetee]

I guess the problem is whether the installer also built the windows, and whose measurements they used...if the installers supplied the measurements to the window company (if they're different companies), they're entirely responsible for the sizes.
Also, I'm not sure they would really do anything about it, if the windows can be reasonably finished to 'look like they belong there'.
The cheap-ass (second) owner of the place I worked used to take about an inch off of the measurements I supplied him to "make sure they fit", and they would take about a tube of silicone around each one to finish them. Looked like hell, but there was nothing I could do about it (and nothing my boss would do about it). The main reason I left the place.

[the_man]

I hired a company, but I think they subcontracted out the install and window fabrication. I've put a message in with the window fabrication company.

[Tomaz]

The manufacturer I work for suggests anywhere from 3/4" to 1" overall difference between Rough Opening and Frame Size (about 1/2" on each side), which should be enough room to make the window square in the opening. Installers have different techniques for installing, or sometimes there are reasons behind making such a difference. I'd contact the installer and discuss your concerns with them.

I would like to see you final installation when it's complete. Please post pics! I am curious to see how they finish off your window.

[justincalgary78]

My assumption would be to clad the exterior with what looks to be about a 3" border. Not horrible, but it looks like the guy that measured wasn't confident with his skills or tape measure, but that cautious is kind of weird.

We usually work on the same principle of about 1/2". Did you have drywall return or casing to start with?

[the_man]

Justin,

I'm not sure what drywall return or casing refers to, but the original windows were from 1962, and we went stud to stud for the new install. I'm thinking the reason they made the window smaller was just to cheap out a bit, like 95Teetee mentioned. I just hope it doesn't effect performance (sound/heat insulation).

Tomaz,

I will definately post some pics when they are completed. And i'm going to contact their sales guy now.

Oh and I called the manufaturer, they seem whishy washy about the acceptable gap. I emailed a photo to the guy and hopefully he comes back with something more concrete.

[Tik-Tok]

I'm wondering if they charged you for a "custom window" size, but just went and bought some off the shelf ones, or from the returns stack.

[justincalgary78]

It sounds like Tik Tok nailed it on the head.

[Tomaz]

oh jeeze, I bloody well hope not!

the_man, Who was the installer and/or window manufacturer? I don't recognize the extrusion.

[95teetee]

^I'm curious too- at first glance I thought it looked close to the Veka products we used where I worked, but the profile is definitely different.

btw, when Justin asked about the drywall return/ casing, he was asking whether the windows had trim around them or whether the drywall was finished right to the window (usually 'wrapped around' the wall right to the window frame system).

also, I 'm leaning towards agreeing with what Tik-Tok said about the windows not being custom made for the application.
Did you choose the window styles (i.e. slider, casement, awning, etc.) when you ordered the windows?
If so, it's less likely that they grabbed them pre-made, but still possible.

[the_man]

The company I hired was Canadian Choice Windows. From the sticker on the window, it looks like the windows were fabricated by hometech windows and doors.

I choose slider windows just because they were the cheapest (this is a rental property).

In regards to the old window, they had a wood trim around them.

[Tomaz]

So, it finally makes sense to me: This is an Ontario company. 95teetee, along with other window guys on here will understand.

Either way, they way window installation works out east is much different than here these days. Out East, installers will use an insert-style window, which is what you have in the rough opening right now. It will have no nailfin or applied brickmould to use for the install, and rarely comes with any interior options. Also, seeing the windows have no applied options to them, they are inherently less expensive than the standard here, but are more labour intensive.

Either way, the_man, I do not find the method of install used in your home acceptable. That form of install has a higher failure rate, there is no need to have a 4"difference between frame size and RO, and I don't see a way to properly flash and seal that form of install for the long-term. I'd be pretty upset.

Keep an eye on that calking as you may need to re-seal that thing yearly.

[frozenrice]

Stolen windows crossed my mind. Taken from a job site and half assed sized to fit the existing opening.

[the_man]

So i had a third party window manufacturer take a look at the windows, and they said the install looked alright. So I'm going to take his word and drop the issue in all but one window.

The kitchen window seems just too small, the casing on the inside ends a 1-3 cm shorter than the last window. So now there is a gap between the backsplash and window (leaving exposed drywall, screw holes, etc). I'm going to let the window guy know this is unacceptable, it just looks bad, and he was here 3 times measuring, he should have caught that.

And beyond that, another issue came up during install. i'm having a couple existing windows cased, but because there is a cable through the existing wood frame, he wants to either cut the cable, or drill a hole through the new casing to put the cable through. I told him neither solutions is acceptable, i'm going to have a handyman look into moving the cable. This sales guy is really pissing me off, he does not listen, he just keeps jabbering on and on. I am so glad i only put a deposit down.

PS. I'll put some photos up this weekend, it's always too dark by the time i get home to take photos.

[Tomaz]

The important thing is to be sure you are satisfied. Like 95teetee and I said, there is nothing really "incorrect" with the install, it just not what normally used out here.

Either way, I'm glad you are getting it sorted out.


Originally posted by the_man
So i had a third party window manufacturer take a look at the windows, and they said the install looked alright. So I'm going to take his word and drop the issue in all but one window.

The kitchen window seems just too small, the casing on the inside ends a 1-3 cm shorter than the last window. So now there is a gap between the backsplash and window (leaving exposed drywall, screw holes, etc). I'm going to let the window guy know this is unacceptable, it just looks bad, and he was here 3 times measuring, he should have caught that.

And beyond that, another issue came up during install. i'm having a couple existing windows cased, but because there is a cable through the existing wood frame, he wants to either cut the cable, or drill a hole through the new casing to put the cable through. I told him neither solutions is acceptable, i'm going to have a handyman look into moving the cable. This sales guy is really pissing me off, he does not listen, he just keeps jabbering on and on. I am so glad i only put a deposit down.

PS. I'll put some photos up this weekend, it's always too dark by the time i get home to take photos.

[FraserB]

Can I put in a shameless plug for Tomaz here? He was great to deal with and the windows look flawless. Mind you, they are not installed yet.

[95teetee]

Originally posted by Tomaz
The important thing is to be sure you are satisfied. Like 95teetee and I said, there is nothing really "incorrect" with the install, it just not what normally used out here.

Either way, I'm glad you are getting it sorted out.

I used to do some inserts, but it was generally (as the_man pointed out) to keep the costs down (again, rental properties were a big source of this).
Or, sometimes in old houses where people wanted to maintain the look of the old windows (generally leaving the old frame, pulling sashes out, installing an insert, finishing).
But this install begged for brickmold imho (they could still be sliders to keep the cost down).
The main thing, as Tomaz mentioned, is to watch the caulking- with this type of install, the exterior caulking is crucial for keeping the water out- with a brickmold, you'll usually have two or three different areas that are caulked, but this really only gives you the single area.

[the_man]

So here are pics of the finished product. I'm relatively happy, except for a couple issues. The first is the basement window has a small crack in the corner, i've mentioned it, they said they would replace it, so i'm satisfied, except that they have already charged my CC for the full balance of the job. Where as the contract states that the balance should be paid on the completion of the job. To me this job is not complete.

The second issue is the kitchen window. On the interior side, the frame does not cover as far as the old window did. This means that about 2 cm of drywall is exposed on the south side and 1.5 cm is exposed on the North side. I can't really patch it and paint over it because i would need to build new back splash. If i didn't explain it right, see the photos below for more detail.

[the_man]

pic 2 - NOTE the shitty caulking job on the bottom right corner. There is definitely a cold spot inside there.

[the_man]

These are 2 of the 4 back windows

[the_man]

This is the issue i'm having

[the_man]

I think my biggest issue is the sales guy. He first started by saying no one will be able to notice the gap, but after he realized that was not an acceptable answer, he started saying that it was necessary, in order to pop off the vinyl frame. He also mentioned that he has spoken to everyone at head office about this, and they all think this is perfectly fine, and even necessary.

He has said that he will offer me $150 as appreciation gift for all this crap. I'm not sure how far to push this thing. What do you guys think?

[Ntense_SpecV]

2 options to fix the inside...

1. Remove existing trim, install new drywall and paint. Re-install existing window casing.

2. Remove existing trim, install wider casing.


Good luck with whatever you decide doing.

[95teetee]

we often used to use 3 1/4" casing because the renovator brickmold installation meant that the inside dimensions of the windows were smaller- this is a case where that would have made up the difference on that window...

btw, I believe my boss used to work it the same way as to the billing- the job would be considered finished (and he would get the remaining 50% paid) and then any required warranty work would be done. The current owner would work it the same way, except that he'd never send anyone back to do the warranty work. A big part of why I left. And why the place may not re-open after their Christmas break lol.