PDA

View Full Version : C63 owners: winter sucks?!?



clem24
12-24-2012, 10:21 AM
For the most part, the car has been fine. But after this big snow fall and temps below -20c, my car will NOT TRACK STRAIGHT (very squirrely) above 70 km/h. Anyone else have this problem? Is this a RWD thing? I tried slamming the brakes to test to see if the road is super icy but it didn't seem like it. I've also tried cycling through both traction control modes + turning it off entirely and it makes no diff.

Going down Crowchild this morning, I seriously thought I was going to crash and lose control at any moment. Again this seems to only happen when the temp drops below a certain point. It's been fine all season (except that one other time there was a big snowfall earlier in the year).

FWIW I am running Michelin (x-ice 3 I think?) 225s on the stock 18s all around (not staggered). It drives perfectly fine all the other times so I don't think size is the problem.. This is my first RWD winter car and I am thinking it's time for a beater. Car also got stuck going up 19th St NW on Saturday night. FML.

Twin_Cam_Turbo
12-24-2012, 10:24 AM
My 135i has been all over the place the last few days as well, roads are certainly very icy in places, when its like it has been the last few days I usually drive with traction control off completely and make damn sure i'm paying attention to the road and how the car is moving around. With my current tires traction control is so intrusive when starting from a stop, that sometimes I can barely move.

Sentry
12-24-2012, 10:39 AM
I don't have any issues in the SVO.

You're expecting too much from your car/tires.

EDIT: And no I don't have any sand or bricks or shit like that in the back of my car. I don't have any issue with traction, why would I ruin the cars handling and kill fuel economy.

rage2
12-24-2012, 10:41 AM
The reason is because the stock C63 alignment settings, as well as factory recommendations, ask for a lot of toe in. In the summer, this is what makes the car turn into corners so well and intiate oversteer on demand. In the winter, especially with black ice on the roads, toe in will make your car go all over the place, as the tires always wants to turn, and you feel like you're all over the place.

I realigned my car prior to winter and prior to summer. Stayed with factory settings in the summer, and went with 0.15 toe all around, which is out of spec for the C63, but inline with the non AMG C's alignment.

You can use the 0.15 setting year round, in the summer, you'll get better tire wear, but less high speed stability above 200km/h (which is why the AMG version specifically has this aggressive toe-in). The car will feel a little less lively throwing into corners.

Toe settings is not going to help you not get stuck on hills and ice. You'll need a running start to get up on really icy hills, but that's the same thing with any RWD car in the extreme cold.

Sentry
12-24-2012, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by rage2
The reason is because the stock C63 alignment settings, as well as factory recommendations, ask for a lot of toe in. In the summer, this is what makes the car turn into corners so well and intiate oversteer on demand. In the winter, especially with black ice on the roads, toe in will make your car go all over the place, as the tires always wants to turn, and you feel like you're all over the place.

I realigned my car prior to winter and prior to summer. Stayed with factory settings in the summer, and went with 0.15 toe all around, which is out of spec for the C63, but inline with the non AMG C's alignment.

You can use the 0.15 setting year round, in the summer, you'll get better tire wear, but less high speed stability above 200km/h (which is why the AMG version specifically has this aggressive toe-in). The car will feel a little less lively throwing into corners.

Toe settings is not going to help you not get stuck on hills and ice. You'll need a running start to get up on really icy hills, but that's the same thing with any RWD car in the extreme cold.
Wow that's still quite a bit of toe. That explains his issue I guess. What's the factory setting? Is that per wheel or total toe?

rage2
12-24-2012, 10:52 AM
The factory setting is insane. .28 to .52 for toe in haha.

I loved the C63 in the winter. My only complaint with the car is off the line traction, which is terrible. Once the car gets going, it's a blast to drive. I only did the winter toe settings for a year, like clem24 says, it's only when it's super cold and dry roads is black ice where it's problematic.

My 996 TT had the same problem on black ice, the previous owner had it dialed to the aggressive side for toe-in. I had to dial it back to a 0.08 to get the car to track straight on super cold days.

edit - Forgot to mention, I'm only talking about REAR toe in this thread. I didn't touch the front toe settings at all.

alien
12-24-2012, 11:02 AM
First world problems.

Cos
12-24-2012, 11:12 AM
.

jaylo
12-24-2012, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Twin_Cam_Turbo
My 135i has been all over the place the last few days as well, roads are certainly very icy in places, when its like it has been the last few days I usually drive with traction control off completely and make damn sure i'm paying attention to the road and how the car is moving around. With my current tires traction control is so intrusive when starting from a stop, that sometimes I can barely move.

I find that the 335i is pretty stable and I do not see it any different than the 135i when it comes to winter traction unless you have a heavy foot or bald/old winter tires.

Tik-Tok
12-24-2012, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by alien
First world problems.

That stopped being funny, like a year ago.

For what it's worth Clem, my Audi has been kind of squirrely the past couple of days too. Roads are pretty shit.

Twin_Cam_Turbo
12-24-2012, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by jaylo


I find that the 335i is pretty stable and I do not see it any different than the 135i when it comes to winter traction unless you have a heavy foot or bald/old winter tires.

I have fairly "low quality" 205 wide Bridgestone winter tires with 5mm of tread left that came with the car, and quite frankly they are shit, ill be glad to burn them off this winter and get some new Pirellis next year.

clem24
12-24-2012, 11:53 AM
Thanks for the responses! I do know about the toe-in problems and it's association with tire wear but I never quite associated it with the car being squirrely in the winter. Does make a lot of sense.

Got an appointment booked with Precision Alignment for Thursday morning so we'll see how that goes. I've always wanted to set up the neutral toe anyway to help with the summer tire wear. And it's not like I drive over 200km/h LOL.

Question: Can I just go in and ask them to setup a neutral toe in the rear and nothing else? Or do they have do the full 4 wheels? I suppose it doesn't hurt to check anyway.

Rage, are the factory settings the same on both stock C63s and P31/AMG pack cars?


Originally posted by Tik-Tok
For what it's worth Clem, my Audi has been kind of squirrely the past couple of days too. Roads are pretty shit.

Well like I pointed out, it seems to be correlated to both road conditions and temperatures. I dunno.. It's pretty scary being in that thing, 480HP, and the car is darting left and right going 70km/h.

rage2
12-24-2012, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by clem24
Question: Can I just go in and ask them to setup a neutral toe in the rear and nothing else? Or do they have do the full 4 wheels? I suppose it doesn't hurt to check anyway.

Rage, are the factory settings the same on both stock C63s and P31/AMG pack cars?
I think that when you adjust rear settings, it puts the front out of whack too. Not sure if that was just for camber or toe or both, but it doesn't hurt to validate the front afterwards to ensure they're in spec.

The settings are the same on the C63 regardless of P30 or P31 package. I believe the 2012 facelift has some changes to the geometry though, but that doesn't apply here.


Originally posted by clem24
Well like I pointed out, it seems to be correlated to both road conditions and temperatures. I dunno.. It's pretty scary being in that thing, 480HP, and the car is darting left and right going 70km/h.
Yea, it's like driving a speedboat haha. My 996TT was way worse and I couldn't live with it. The C63 was tolerable, seeing as we only have a few days of these road conditions a year. My brother's Yaris was setup quite aggressively, and we were doing 4 wheel drifts around corners on Saturday night... much scarier in a FWD car. Basically anything that's setup to handle well in the summer usually drives like this in really bad conditions.

Sentry
12-24-2012, 12:09 PM
Yeah for toe if you adjust the rear it changes your thrust angle, unless the LH and RH rear wheels had even toe before and even toe after.

But really, we're talking about a couple bucks here.

clem24
12-24-2012, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Sentry
Yeah for toe if you adjust the rear it changes your thrust angle, unless the LH and RH rear wheels had even toe before and even toe after.

But really, we're talking about a couple bucks here.

Well it's not really the money.. What worries me is Mercedes and factory warranty LOL. I am trying to leave everything as-is, as much as I can.

colinxx235
12-24-2012, 12:35 PM
Yah Clem, like tik-tok said. My B8 S4 has been a little unpleasant the last few days also, much more sliding than I expected and loss of traction starting off line.

boarderfatty
12-24-2012, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by rage2


My 996TT was way worse and I couldn't live with it.

Just pre alignment? I find my 996 to be quite controllable and predictable in the winter. I prefer it to most of the SUV's Trucks, or Subaru's I have driven. But I have awesome winter tires and am pretty particular about my alignment settings

rage2
12-24-2012, 01:01 PM
Yes just pre alignment. It was fantastic after I went less aggressive on rear toe. Still the most fun winter car I've owned. It's too bad the Panamera is so expensive, otherwise I would've definately gotten that over the CLS.

max_boost
12-24-2012, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by rage2
Yes just pre alignment. It was fantastic after I went less aggressive on rear toe. Still the most fun winter car I've owned. It's too bad the Panamera is so expensive, otherwise I would've definately gotten that over the CLS. Don't think I can operate a FWD/RWD vehicle in the winter, the AWD is just nice to have. You said expensive so I looked up the Panamera and had no idea the thing cost $160k! :eek:

rage2
12-24-2012, 01:23 PM
Ya, I looked at the 4S, mildly optioned, costs more than a fully loaded CLS63. The turbo was almost 200k lol.

boarderfatty
12-24-2012, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by rage2
Yes just pre alignment. It was fantastic after I went less aggressive on rear toe. Still the most fun winter car I've owned. It's too bad the Panamera is so expensive, otherwise I would've definately gotten that over the CLS.

I was a little surprised when I went to the Panamera release party and priced myself out a 4S, thought you are getting quite a bit more car compared to a 911 (actual amount of material used) Seeing how well it tested on Top Gear has made me really think about trying to find a slightly used one once the family starts.

T-Dubbs
12-24-2012, 01:32 PM
rwd isnt THAT bad with good winter tires.
i mean its not the same as my old STi, but it could be alot worse.

A2VR6
12-24-2012, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by jaylo


I find that the 335i is pretty stable and I do not see it any different than the 135i when it comes to winter traction unless you have a heavy foot or bald/old winter tires.

:werd: My M3 has been pretty stable as well so far and if it does step out it's really predictable. I believe the factory calls for 0.2-0.4 for toe-in in the rear so it's a bit less than the MB's.

Funny thing is, my dad's 335i on skinnier winters (im running 255 LM60's and he's running 225 Wintersport 3D's) is significantly more tail happy than the M3.

In any case, for the past couple of days if im stopped at a stop sign or light with a slight incline it takes me a good 15-30 seconds to get halfway through the intersection :rofl: I really feel bad for anyone that's unfortunate enough to be behind me.

OP: Maybe try looking into studded winters for your next set of tires? Might help you out a fair bit on ice. I'd be running studded winters if they made them in my size for my car.

max_boost
12-24-2012, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by rage2
Ya, I looked at the 4S, mildly optioned, costs more than a fully loaded CLS63. The turbo was almost 200k lol. Used would work. Ball so hard, depreciate so hard. :D

gpomp
12-24-2012, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by A2VR6
Funny thing is, my dad's 335i on skinnier winters (im running 255 LM60's and he's running 225 Wintersport 3D's) is significantly more tail happy than the M3. maybe because his car has torque :dunno:

rage2
12-24-2012, 03:40 PM
It's got nothing to do with getting sideways. The C63 will always be tail happy in winter regardless of alignment settings. We're talking about tracking in a straight line on roads covered with black ice.

Aleks
12-24-2012, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by gpomp
maybe because his car has torque :dunno:

This, I have 225/45/17s all around and it's fine if I'm gentle with the gas. You have to be super easy on the throttle and it goes fine but if you apply the throttle even a little harder it will spin even with TC on.

We have studded tires on our minivan and it's not that huge of a difference. It does really well around corners and stopping but at stop lights I can easily get the tires spinning unless gentle on the throttle.

psycoticclown
12-24-2012, 06:18 PM
Roads are damn shitty, my car has been having problems too.

JAYMEZ
12-24-2012, 06:38 PM
Im having the same thing with my C63 right now lol.. I think its the temp

jaylo
12-24-2012, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Aleks


This, I have 225/45/17s all around and it's fine if I'm gentle with the gas. You have to be super easy on the throttle and it goes fine but if you apply the throttle even a little harder it will spin even with TC on.

We have studded tires on our minivan and it's not that huge of a difference. It does really well around corners and stopping but at stop lights I can easily get the tires spinning unless gentle on the throttle.

Also note that the stock 335i's 300 torque kicks in at 1,400RPM as to the 295 torque at 3,900 on the E9X M3

turbotrip
12-24-2012, 07:37 PM
i dont think its the car specifically, even our awd cars have been highly questionable last few days.

Team_Mclaren
12-24-2012, 08:18 PM
Times like this I wish I can put on Studded or regular winters, not just performance winters. On a small incline it take 5-10 seconds to get going...

benyl
12-25-2012, 12:39 AM
weird, I have never noticed.

My F150 with the Electronic locking rear diff was lots of fun today. 2 out of 3 locked diffs and I had trouble with traction.

I also took the C63 out today. mine seems to track fine. I am not running a square setup anymore. Was running 225 all around. Now running 225 in front and 235 in the rear.

At anything over 70km/h, I am in full safety mode. No sport or nanny completely off.

I am this close to dropping a deposit on the new E63. AWD will be heaven on days like this. haha:devil: :devil:

m10-power
12-27-2012, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by rage2
Yes just pre alignment. It was fantastic after I went less aggressive on rear toe. Still the most fun winter car I've owned. It's too bad the Panamera is so expensive, otherwise I would've definately gotten that over the CLS.

Too bad you couldnt get an lsd for the tip 996tt, my cars a 6 spd and I installed a lsd. Transformed the car handling wise, now the psm only goes off if I want to do big slides, this weather is awesome for that... ;)

My alignment has a bit too much toe in at the back but once your used to it and know its not going to get any worse its fine to drive.

clem24
12-27-2012, 01:25 PM
Got the alignment done this morning. Tech looked at the settings and thought I had lowered the car as my settings were out of whack for one of them (can't remember which one.. Castor?? Left the sheet in the car). I am pretty sure (but can't find any definitive answers) that the AMG pack/P31 cars sit lower than stock C63s.

Anyway... We agreed to set all 4 corners at .2 toe in. So far, it seems to have made a HUGE difference. Going into the appointment this morning on McKnight, I swear I was going to veer off and crash into the barrier after going over the 36th St bridge. On the way back, the car tracked perfectly straight; no more feeling like it was going to break loose at any minute. So hopefully this solves it. Never thought that such a tiny little setting could affect it so much. Thanks Rage2!!

So next question is... Is there any way to disable VSC completely but not traction control? Seems like there's only 3 settings (off, mild [Sport], full[Comfort]) and it controls both. Comfort is completely pointless and actually kind of hard to control since it abruptly cuts off everything. Sport mode is decent but I still hate how it will abruptly cut off throttle. Turning everything off - there's just too much power for the car to get away cleanly from a stop and I've gotten stuck a few times in this mode, so out of the question. I've also been using the traction control so much that I think the rear pads needs to be replaced LOL (starting to squeal and not the 'normal' squealing I used to get).

rage2
12-27-2012, 02:35 PM
With these settings, you'll get twice the life on the rear tires too. Handling won't feel as sharp in the summers though.

I used ESP Sport and just learned to drive within it's boundaries. If you have LSD, turning it off completely will be as close as it'll get but will be a drift machine once you get going.

As for the brakes squealing, you'll have to wait till it warms up. MB brakes are notorious for squeal if you don't work them hard enough. You need a few 100 to 0 panic stop braking to get them to stop making noise. My CLS is doing the same thing right now, just annoying as fuck, till I get some dry roads to work the brakes a little bit.

maxomilll
12-27-2012, 02:53 PM
my 95 ford escourt is god damn all OVER the place. :love:

the window also will not roll up when it gets to cold.

turbotrip
12-27-2012, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by rage2

As for the brakes squealing, you'll have to wait till it warms up. MB brakes are notorious for squeal if you don't work them hard enough. You need a few 100 to 0 panic stop braking to get them to stop making noise. My CLS is doing the same thing right now, just annoying as fuck, till I get some dry roads to work the brakes a little bit.

is there any other fix to stop high performance brakes from squeaking? hard braking seems to only temporarily fix the issue. today was a very embarrasing drive and i dont want to change the pads to aftermarket.

colinxx235
12-27-2012, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by rage2

As for the brakes squealing, you'll have to wait till it warms up. MB brakes are notorious for squeal if you don't work them hard enough. You need a few 100 to 0 panic stop braking to get them to stop making noise. My CLS is doing the same thing right now, just annoying as fuck, till I get some dry roads to work the brakes a little bit.


Wait... so I'm not the only one who is going fucking nuts with my "performance" brakes squealing my damn ears off. I was getting pissed off at Audi calling it bullshit lol :rofl:

Twin_Cam_Turbo
12-27-2012, 07:55 PM
Mine squeel like a motherfucker and I can't get rid of it no matter what I try. I wouldn't consider them as high performance as C63 brakes though.

rage2
12-27-2012, 08:24 PM
It's just modern big brakes and the pad compounds that are used. I'm told that different pads fix the problem.

I thought it was a Mercedes parts trait, had no idea that BMW and Audis have the same problems. I drive hard enough in the summer where it's not an issue, it's just winter when I can't go hard on the brakes at all due to ice and low temps.

My last few MBs all have noisy brakes and cured by hard braking. The B doesn't have the problem, but that's because the brakes aren't oversized and gets worked hard under normal conditions. Of course, it only takes a few corners of back road driving to overheat them. I'd rather have noisy than overheating brakes.

colinxx235
12-27-2012, 08:41 PM
^

Yah summer with hard braking and warm weather I heard the scarce peep, nothing bad.

I got new ones on the front about a month ago as they were nearing end of life. Holy fuck this week has been embarrassing. Very very loud screeches. Less than impressed given Audi's claims of "best winter vehicles" etc

Twin_Cam_Turbo
12-27-2012, 08:48 PM
No matter what I try mine squeel in all temps, but only light braking, started to happen around 30000km and i'm at 43800km now. 200-0km/h stops don't help in summer, pressure washing them every week doesn't help. Its predicting brakes in the next 15000km or so, hopefully with some new pads and rotors all will be well again.

A2VR6
12-27-2012, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Twin_Cam_Turbo
No matter what I try mine squeel in all temps, but only light braking, started to happen around 30000km and i'm at 43800km now. 200-0km/h stops don't help in summer, pressure washing them every week doesn't help. Its predicting brakes in the next 15000km or so, hopefully with some new pads and rotors all will be well again.

+1 im experiencing this as well. Squeals under light braking under all temps. Hard braking = no noise but even after a few hard stops the brakes still squeal under light braking.

Cos
12-27-2012, 10:25 PM
.

Aleks
12-27-2012, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Twin_Cam_Turbo
No matter what I try mine squeel in all temps, but only light braking, started to happen around 30000km and i'm at 43800km now. 200-0km/h stops don't help in summer, pressure washing them every week doesn't help. Its predicting brakes in the next 15000km or so, hopefully with some new pads and rotors all will be well again.

I had this issue on my car this past summer on the rears. Couldn't make it go away and I had around 16,000 kms left on the brakes per sensor. Got sick of it and had BMW replace pads and rotors. Problem solved.

bart
12-28-2012, 12:27 AM
TTRS brakes squeaked too in the beginning, they have stopped since. They would only do it semi warm, if cold or hot they wouldn't. Didn't really care, I guess it comes with big brakes haha. S4/S5's same thing, but they made a recall on those cars, the brake pedal got mushy after that, bad idea oh well

turbotrip
12-28-2012, 02:24 AM
I've seen the problem on Benzes, BMW's, and some Porsche's but nothing near what is experienced in an Audi S/RS. I asked around and it seems the best solution other than replacing pads is to put anti-squeak compound/paste behind the pads. Anyone tried this?

bart
12-28-2012, 04:32 AM
i hear or rather not hear shims are another solution...

Buster
12-29-2012, 12:40 PM
Makes me feel better. The big Brembos on the Caddy squeel like crazy at low-ish speeds. Might also have something to do with the two piece track rotors I have on there.

The V seems to have done better in these conditions than some other RWDers on here. Of course, it's mostly sat in the garage for the duration of this crazy ice week.

But in general it does not have the tracking issues that are discussed here.

clem24
10-25-2013, 02:22 PM
Winter is approaching and any new Civic63 owners should give this thread a read. My Civic will be parked this winter as I don't want to subject it to any more winter abuse (and not that it was a great winter car to begin with).

As a side note re. changing the rear toe settings, I can confirm this really does improve tire wear IMMENSELY. I was thinking I was going to need new summers this year, but having driven on them as usual, and having put almost 10k on the car the past few months, the tires still look almost like they did at the beginning of summer!

It'll be going in for it's annual $800 oil change next week LOL. Well it's service A1 and I anticipate it'll be cheaper this time around.. Maybe $400 oil change? :nut:

shakalaka
10-25-2013, 04:25 PM
I already bought a winter set of tires/rims. Have the had toe in done since day one. Services A0 or something is a few thousand km's away. Should be good for winter.:dunno: