Advice? - Builders lien by sub for garage built by Shaw Renovation & Construction

[malbadon]

*short*
-contractor builds garage, gets paid.
-sub files lien, didn't get paid.
-need to pay sub obviously, get lien removed.
-need process explained of how to then go back to Shaw to get $$, since seems to want to dodge until everyone goes away.

*long*
We had a garage built over the summer by Shaw Renovation. All was great until a month after it was done when the concrete sub filed a builders lien because Shaw put a stop-payment on his cheque. Got a fun lesson in the Builders act, never heard of holding back 10% before that and shockingly the garage contract wasn't written with that in it..

Anyway.. talked to Jon Shaw, the owner of Shaw Renovation in October, got told a story about him having to stop payment on multiple jobs of the sub because of issues with work he did at one of the jobs (not mine I advised him since I was there when he did it). and to give it a few weeks while they worked it out.

Skip forward to the end of November and we get a letter from the sub advising he still hadn't been paid and he's having to take it to court. We email that to Shaw the first week of December and left a message, don't get a response.

Email, fax and leave a message the third week of December advising we expect this guy to get paid by the end of the month, no response.

Another message at the end of December and also talked to the sub to confirm he still hasn't been paid by Shaw.

Finally get in touch with Jon last Friday but he said was with a customer and would call me right back. Because I'm a wimpy idiot apparently, I said okay.
Obviously, no returned call.

Call again that evening, left a voicemail and sent another email stating my displeasure at the lack of response and explanation.

So following the trend, still nothing...

Need to know what the next step is, obviously need to pay the sub so he gets his money for the work he did. I've got nothing against the sub, dude just wants his $$ and is following the steps he is supposed to.

Do you pay the sub and then have to do a small claims thing again the main contractor? Does the sub complete his whole lien court thing to get the official confirmation of the lien, then you pay him, then use that decision to go back to the main contractor?

Or are you just left to huddle in the corner? I can't imagine what would happen if they didn't pay any of their subs, 10% sure as hell wouldn't cover that...
This must all be detailed somewhere on the internet, but all I can find is what the lien filer is supposed to do..

The crazy part about this is he knew we had more work to get done, new roof, siding, a deck, a retaining wall.... hmmm... think this has soured me just a wee bit.

[spikerS]

I am not sure here, but my best guess is as follows:

You never hired the sub contractor, the general contractor did, and as such, have no responsibility to the sub contractor.

I don't believe the lien on your property is a valid one since you never asked the sub to do the work, the contractor did, and as such, his (contractor's) bill, even if you never paid him. If there was a lien to be placed, the contractor should be doing it.

I would consult a lawyer, but the way my logic is working, I would think that heading into court with your invoice and cashed cheque that was made payable to the contractor would be enough to have the subs lien removed, and the costs passed onto them.

Basically the only part of the contract between the contractor and the sub that you are involved in, is that the work was done on your property.

I could be totally out to lunch, and I would be happy to be proven wrong, but this is what my logic and thought process tells me.

[spikerS]

and just to clarify my thought process a little.

I make tires, and I sell them to you for $25 per tire, and you in turn sell them to the public for $100 a tire.

now you have store credit with me, and I let you run up a $1000 file. But then you disappear. I can't go after your customers for your bills, I have to go after you.

[cet]

I'm not sure the answer but here (http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=77388) is a thread from Calgary Puck detailing the same scenario. For a moment I thought you had asked the question over there as well until I saw the dates were from 2009.

[malbadon]

thanks for that link cet, I'd already read it, it basically gets to the point I'm at (need to pay the sub myself to get the lien off) and stops there. Doesn't go into how the homeowner then goes about getting that money back from the main contractor.

spikers, it sucks but that is the process of the Builder lien act. While I'd agree its written to the sub-trades benefit, really those guys are the little people on the job and need to get paid.
The whole thing seems to be one of those "well you should just know this" acts that every contractor purposely ignores in their contracts to make sure they get their money in full from the homeowner the second they are done.

[Black Gts]

In my line of work the builder pays the framer, the framer pays us. If cheque bounces and framer takes off lien goes on the house. Usually the builder will pay it so they can sell, builder goes after framer. If your not selling let the courts deal with it. Otherwise you might have to pay first and go after the company.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by malbadon
thanks for that link cet, I'd already read it, it basically gets to the point I'm at (need to pay the sub myself to get the lien off) and stops there. Doesn't go into how the homeowner then goes about getting that money back from the main contractor.


DO NOT PAY THE SUB CONTRACTOR.

You have no obligation to pay the sub contractor, Shaw has a contract with the Sub, not you. If you pay you're just going to be out more money, and you'll never get it out of Shaw. You can't get the guy on the phone now, you think you're going to get him on the phone when you just took care of his major PITA problem?

[roopi]

Originally posted by Go4Long


DO NOT PAY THE SUB CONTRACTOR.

You have no obligation to pay the sub contractor, Shaw has a contract with the Sub, not you. If you pay you're just going to be out more money, and you'll never get it out of Shaw. You can't get the guy on the phone now, you think you're going to get him on the phone when you just took care of his major PITA problem?

:werd:

Don't pay this yourself. You will never collect it from the contractor. Just go down to the Shaw office until someone talks to you.

[lilmira]

http://www.ontarioconstructionlaw.ca/Index-of-Selected-Articles/Construction-Liens-FAQ.shtml

You might be on the hook. For sure bigger job will have holdback to prevent this from happening. Not sure how this applies to small job though. How much are we talking about here? You may need to hire a pro to govern accordingly.

[Go4Long]

The lien is valid. But he's not on the hook for it unless he gives this shaw douche bag a walk.

[lilmira]

If you can track down this Shaw company and get them to sort it out themselves, then yeah, everyone is happy.

What happens if Shaw just disappears, the lien is valid, the sub is still not getting paid and not likely will remove the lien? The owner is still stuck with it yes?

[88CRX]

Originally posted by malbadon

Anyway.. talked to Jon Shaw, the owner of Shaw Renovation in October, got told a story about him having to stop payment on multiple jobs of the sub because of issues with work he did at one of the jobs (not mine I advised him since I was there when he did it). and to give it a few weeks while they worked it out.

So Shaw Renovations is holding back payment to a sub on your garage because of issue on other projects/garages? Or am I reading that wrong?

[mobius]

Originally posted by 88CRX


So Shaw Renovations is holding back payment to a sub on your garage because of issue on other projects/garages? Or am I reading that wrong?

That was the 'excuse', but not necessarily the real story.

[JRSC00LUDE]

The Lien should definately be valid.

Your best bet is to contact the sub and explain that you have paid the job in full to the contractor but that you will lean on him to try and settle this so the lien can be removed. As said, DO NOT pay the guy yourself obviously but in this situation it is better to attempt to make the sub an ally than an enemy as he is under no obligation to remove that lien from your propterty, whether you like it or not.

As a contractor, I am usually required to sign a stat. dec. stating that all subs have been paid before final payments of funds are released to me. I understand on a small job it isn't the norm but it is a method of verification by the owner to avoid such situations occurring and, perhaps something for others to consider in the future.

[frozenrice]

Kind of a dick move on both the sub and builder. The builder should have paid the invoice on your job, but backcharged the sub on the other job that he had the beef on. I believe legally the sub cant lien your job since it's "paid". He'd have to lien the other job.
I could be mistaken, but that's how i understand it.

[Sal0]

Why not file a complaint to the Better Business Bureau? They seem to have a good rating, so it will likley be worth their while to fix this.

Good luck!

[autosm]

From what I understand the lien has to be renewed every year?

Unless you are selling the house soon? The lien holder has to renew it every term for them to keep it on your property.

I could be wrong this is second hand info from someone went through this.

I was told that this BS tactic only works for the short term.....?

:dunno:

[Khyron]

Jebus, I did not think that's how it worked - thanks for the insight even though it sucks for you... in future will get verification that subs were paid before paying. I usually pay for stuff same day/right away. Here's reason for delaying...

[AndyL]

Did that comment about due to another job happen to be via non verbal? (Ie text email etc)

if so, you could get it removed... friend had this scenario, ended at queens benched with a copy of the email, and had it removed...

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by Sal0
Why not file a complaint to the Better Business Bureau? They seem to have a good rating, so it will likley be worth their while to fix this.

Good luck!

http://monarchbasics.com/memo/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/laughing-at-work.jpg

[lilmira]

Do you usually have hold back on you Dave? Tiles are not exactly cheap. Not saying you would skip paying the supplier but what else can the owner do to protect himself?

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by lilmira
Do you usually have hold back on you Dave? Tiles are not exactly cheap. Not saying you would skip paying the supplier but what else can the owner do to protect himself?

Most builders will hold back 10%. But I won't deliver material until it's paid for. I used to, but it's risky enough giving a builder 10 or 20 thousand dollars worth of labour and hoping to get paid...never mind adding roughly the same amount for tile. No, tile is all COD.

But for the labour, on big builders it's always "net 30". And depending when their "cut off" is, that can be up to 60 days before I get paid. I don't invoice until the job is finished. So say their cut-off is the 15th. So I'll invoice then, and get a cheque on the following 15th. If it's a big job, I might have started a month earlier...so it's 60 days before I see any money.

Small jobs, it's "due upon completion".

But further to your question: It's tricky for both parties. I've done jobs on private homes where I invoice the builder. He's not paid me, and I usually wait 30 days. If I get "that feeling", I'll contact the homeowner and warn him "I haven't been paid yet....if your contractor doesn't pay me within two weeks, I'll be leining the job". That gets the homeowner on the contractors back, and gives him a heads up not to pay out the contractor.

[blitz]

Let's work on push this thread up the ranking on google.

It's un-acceptable to hold back payment on your job due to issues on another.




Shaw Renovations Calgary (http://forums.beyond.ca/st/364592/advice-builders-lien-by-sub-for-garage-built-by-shaw-renovation-construction/)

Shaw Renovations Calgary Problems (http://forums.beyond.ca/st/364592/advice-builders-lien-by-sub-for-garage-built-by-shaw-renovation-construction/)

Shaw Renovations Screwing me over (http://forums.beyond.ca/st/364592/advice-builders-lien-by-sub-for-garage-built-by-shaw-renovation-construction/)

Shaw Renovations Doesn't Pay Sub Contractors (http://forums.beyond.ca/st/364592/advice-builders-lien-by-sub-for-garage-built-by-shaw-renovation-construction/)

[malbadon]

Originally posted by Sal0
Why not file a complaint to the Better Business Bureau? They seem to have a good rating, so it will likley be worth their while to fix this.

Thanks, have filed, will see what that does.


Originally posted by 88CRX


So Shaw Renovations is holding back payment to a sub on your garage because of issue on other projects/garages? Or am I reading that wrong?

Your not wrong, basically the sub got handed one big cheque for 7 jobs including mine, then deposited it and had it stop-payment'd. So he's been screwed over on a big amount of $$, not just my job, thus he has liens on all the jobs since he hasn't been paid for any.



Originally posted by AndyL
Did that comment about due to another job happen to be via non verbal?

sadly was over the phone the one and only time we were able to have a conversation with Jon back in October when this first happened.

Thanks for all the advise so far, basically what I'd been assuming sadly. I'm usually the popcorn muncher during these stories....not used to actually being the story.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by malbadon


Thanks, have filed, will see what that does.

Absolutely nothing. BBB means nothing now days.



Originally posted by malbadon

sadly was over the phone the one and only time we were able to have a conversation with Jon back in October when this first happened.

Uhh...wait. When was the lien put in place? And when was this guys last day on the job? He has to file within 45 days of his last day of work. Even one day after that and the lien is not valid.

[lilmira]

This is a sticky situation for sure. Do keep us posted. I like to know about good businesses as well as the bad ones.

[Amysicle]

Originally posted by C_Dave45

Absolutely nothing. BBB means nothing now days. [/B] Yeah but if it helps accurately portray the way Shaw Renovations and how they resolve issues they've caused, it will help future clients to avoid picking them.


Shaw Renovations Calgary (http://forums.beyond.ca/st/364592/advice-builders-lien-by-sub-for-garage-built-by-shaw-renovation-construction/)

Shaw Renovations Calgary Problems (http://forums.beyond.ca/st/364592/advice-builders-lien-by-sub-for-garage-built-by-shaw-renovation-construction/)

Shaw Renovations Screwing me over (http://forums.beyond.ca/st/364592/advice-builders-lien-by-sub-for-garage-built-by-shaw-renovation-construction/)

Shaw Renovations Doesn't Pay Sub Contractors (http://forums.beyond.ca/st/364592/advice-builders-lien-by-sub-for-garage-built-by-shaw-renovation-construction/)

[C_Dave45]

^ For the life of me, I couldn't seem to find them in the BBB's website. Anyone have a BBB link for their rating?

[spikerS]

Well, it looks like I was proven wrong. Don't tell Baygirl. But it is good to learn new things!


Originally posted by C_Dave45






Uhh...wait. When was the lien put in place? And when was this guys last day on the job? He has to file within 45 days of his last day of work. Even one day after that and the lien is not valid. [/B]

I was wondering that too. assuming a completion date of October 31st, he could not put the lien on the house after December 15th. If it was any time after that, the lien is not valid...

[spikerS]

Originally posted by malbadon
All was great until a month after it was done when the concrete sub filed a builders lien

well, i guess there is our answer.

[C_Dave45]

Originally posted by spikers


well, i guess there is our answer.
Ahhh....lol. Helps if I read the OP a little more carefully.
Thank you sir.

[malbadon]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
^ For the life of me, I couldn't seem to find them in the BBB's website. Anyone have a BBB link for their rating?

http://www.bbb.org/calgary/business-reviews/general-contractors/shaw-renovation-and-construction-in-calgary-ab-35862


A+ rating, don't ask me... I honestly don't understand what is going on with Shaw Renovation. Still not a returned call or reply, screwing over the homeowner to keep a few extra bucks seems to be the new modus operandi...

[AndyL]

They forked over 500$ annually for a bbb membership, that's all that is required to have a good rating with the bbb...

[JustinMCS]

Originally posted by AndyL
They forked over 500$ annually for a bbb membership, that's all that is required to have a good rating with the bbb...

+1

BBB is a giant waste of time and is basically an advertising directory.

[malbadon]

Well the BBB thing at least kicked the hornets nest. No call but did get emailed a copy of a letter Jon from Shaw Renovation was sending me and one he was sending the contractor.

Basically my letter covers that he has issues with the work of the last job the guy did, requires repair, advises that he is committed to getting the liens removed from our houses and tells me going to the BBB won't get this sped up (no, but it sure did get you to finally email me...).

Letter to the sub basically says what is wrong with the work and what he expects done to at the site to reissue him a cheque for all the outstanding jobs.
(Of course from when I talked to the sub I recall him saying he had pictures of the site and it was fine, some I'm sure this thing is going to drag on forever...)

So other than the fact that I still don't think he has a right to not pay this guy for the jobs that were done right and still being ticked at the fact it took this much effort to finally get a response, it does sound like he's committed to getting this resolved, however long that takes... (and now I have it in writing).

/sigh

[blitz]

Keep going with the BBB until this is resolved, sounds like its something he values.

[FraserB]

Is there any way for you to track down the other owners that the sub placed liens against? Having multiple complaints show up at the BB and on their site might motivate him.

I would send an email to both the contractor and the sub saying that the issue will be refered to a lawyer unless they both meet with you to figure out your situation.

Have you looked into having the lien removed as AndyL mentioned now that you have him admitting that the lien was placed becuase of another job?

[AndyL]

Originally posted by blitz
Keep going with the BBB until this is resolved, sounds like its something he values.

BBB is now satisfied, he's a member and he's responded to the complaint, now his rating won't go down...

Now pull out the lawyer referral service, get some free consultations

[Lex350]

My cousin went throught a similar situation. The contractor didn't pay the sub-contractor so the sub out a lien on the house. My cousin then paid the sub to get the lien removed (he was selling the house) and then took the contracotr to court. I won his money plus damages but it was a big big hassle. Just the way it is here.

[malbadon]

Thought I'd just give this one some closure.

After I started this thread end up running into the sub while I'm out bar-crawling. awkward.

The next week in January we got cc'd on a letter sent to the sub saying they wanted the work at this other property fixed by April 15, and a letter to us saying there was no need to involve the BBB or talk to the sub. Apparently there'd been a death in the family over x-mas, thus the lack of getting back to us.

End of Jan we asked if they'd heard back from the sub confirming if he was complying or not. We got an email back stating we were not being patient enough (note, we are at month 4 now) and to stop involving the BBB, it was..colorful.

Replied back reiterating that they'd been paid in full and I had no intention of ending my BBB complaint until the lien is removed and a reminder that I was the injured party, not them. I was as forceful as I get, what being a non-confrontational wuss.

Didn't really hear anything more on it, BBB noted they were closing this unresolved and I got really busy Feb/Mar, until two weeks ago when the BBB emailed me asking if I'd heard anything after the April 15th deadline given to the sub.

So I sent an email and cc'd the BBB person asking for an update and got back an awesome ragemail! Called me stupid, how dare I keep the BBB involved, I was not be cooperative or understanding during this time of bereavement and that I better never call them in the future if I had reason to require them (hey, guess this means my "1 year warranty" is useless, *shock*).

Last line stated it had been more than 180 days and the lien was removed. I guess this means nothing got resolved between them all but some magical timeframe has lapsed where the sub didn't renew it (know autosm mentioned a year, guess its 180).

So I dunno, in the end (assuming the lien really is gone, will have to check that) I'm out nothing but 7 months of annoyance, have an interesting story to tell and know one contractor that will never be suggested by me to a soul I know.

[malbadon]

Reviving this one just to give the final ending :)

Got summoned to court as witness for the sub-contractor (Ultimate Finished Concrete Services) last week against Shaw Renovations.

Basically my involvement was just to state that the sub poured my pad, I didn't have any issues with it and that the sub didn't do any of the form work.

But my god the rest was awesome, the sub had the *homeowner* of the property that had been "done wrong" testifying for him! I finally got to learn this really did all boil down to some stairs and sidewalk that the homeowner had wanted with an exposed finished. The sub had never been told that so gave it the normal broom finish. Then instead of owning up to the mistake Shaw tried to make the sub redo the work for free by stating it had marks and knicks and footprints and things in it. Then the homeowner said that wasn't true and out came the pictures showing the original work in perfect broom condition, no footprints or nothin' and then the "fixed" work pictures, which I'll admit looked very nice but wasn't the point being contested, the judge used the phrase "apples to oranges" :)

It was over from the start from what I saw, basically "I don't want to pay him" versus 3 witnesses, mounds of paperwork and a bunch of photos. Shaw had also counter-sued for "fixing" the work for twice the amount the sub had been suing for the three properties he hadn't been paid (I assume to get him to drop the original suit). Not only did the sub get awarded the outstanding money he was owed but an additional 5% of that amount PLUS 5% of the dismissed counter-suit amount.

Icing on the cake was Shaw walking out of the court, storming past me and walking up to the homeowner telling her 6 inches from her face "Of course you know not to call me for any warranty work" and then striding off. I was gobsmacked at his douchery but she was all "pff, like hell I'd call you". Then I pointed out I was fairly sure all of us were well past our 1 year warranty period :).

So that's it, I bet it'll still take another year and two more court orders before the guy forks over the money to the concrete guy, but I'm impressed he really did stick with it and take Shaw to court to get the money he was owed, think most subs woulda just moved on and let Shaw pocket the money.. I mean hell, it took two years to go to court!

[spikerS]

:thumbsup:

[danno]

That's great. I've wired a few garages for and builder and it was the worst experience. He just wouldn't let me do things the proper way, cutting corners all the time. I feel sorry for people that bring these guys into their homes.

[egmilano]

what a nightmare, glad to hear everything is cleared up !

[botox]

That's good news. There is always two sides to a story and I guess he didn't want you to talk to the sub because you would find out who the real crook was.

[CapnCrunch]

It's ridiculous that the owner acts like that and is still in business.

[JustinMCS]

Awesome justice. Glad everything worked out!

[C_Dave45]

Going through a nightmare like this myself right now. Fucking shady builders.

[G-ZUS]

Originally posted by C_Dave45
Going through a nightmare like this myself right now. Fucking shady builders.

you gonna post a thread?