Thoughts on Windows 8?

[Seth1968]

I'm a computer tech, and have heard/read/experienced just about everything imaginable about W8.

Brief summary:

W8 is an incredible operating system that far exceeds W7 in speed and security.

Long summary:

The typical, "I hate Windows 8, I want the desktop back".

!) It's not Window's 8 that these people hate, it's the Metro desktop (similar to a dashboard in a car) . These people are erroneously implicating a whole OS (the cars engine) based on 1 of its 2 dashboards.

What's wrong with W8? Nothing actually, as W8 kicks ass. The problem is "the fail" in which W8 was deployed and marketed. Examples:

1) When you setup W8, there is no mention of the "Desktop" tile. The most important tile for most end users.

2) When you finally know of the desktop mode, there is no mention that a right click on the bottom corner (normally a left click on the old start menu), displays actions similar to the old start menu.

3) The dual interface makes sense, but allow the end user to choose what interface to boot from.

Bottom line:

The idea of a unified OS across all platforms is brilliant. MS's mistake seems to be in the marketing/testing division, but they gave in to the pressure of a CEO who was delivering the cross platform idea, but was careless in introducing it.

W8 (for lack of a better term), is failing due to general consumer ignorance, and dismal MS marketing and basic instruction. It is most certaintly not an issue with W8 itself.

[revelations]

Metro is idiotic on anything other than a touch screen.

For me W8, works best with a classic shell hack.

[firebane]

Win8? Tablet OS.

Stick with 7 unless they bring out Win 8.1

[SportEL]

Download Start8. It brings back the old familiar Windows 7 interface. I couldn't get used to Metro.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by revelations
Metro is idiotic on anything other than a touch screen.
100% THIS. Got a new laptop that came with win8. Thought it was cool, until I discovered that it interpreted my movements on the mouse touch-pad as if they were gestures on a touch-screen tablet. I'm minimizing and scrolling all over the goddamn place. Took me years to learn how to efficiently use a small touch-pad instead of a mouse on a laptop, and now that's all useless.

The Win8 laptop stays on the shelf unless I'm desperate.

[schocker]

I have used it only on my sister's laptop. It is a struggle to do anything and it is hard to find everything. Hate the metro interface but overall I know it is a good operating system. I will wait until 8.1 if the rumors are true (Boot to desktop, start button), before I start using it on my own PC.

[Xtrema]

8.1 on unofficial channel proved rumor is false.

MS is doubling down on Metro, even if it sinks the ship.

8 is great, they need to rip out Metro.

Doesn't matter, everyone relies on windows will be bankrupt within 5-10 years. The profit margin is already slim and volume is waning. MS just try to screw all business customers to cover their mistake on the consumer side.

Windows hardware is pure shit now. Low cost, low margin, no QA. I deal with servers all day long and all window devices supplier failed miserably just keep drivers and firmware stable. Its so bad that IBM is contemplating quiting the server business and sell to Lenovo.

And they better not screw with the kernel every year. If they do, I bet the enterprise cash cow will be gone too. Os and GUI refresh is usually 3 and the fast side and 7 yrs on the slow side. If I have to train people on metro, I may as well adopt OSX company wide.

[kJUMP]

i'm actually now beginning to enjoy using W8 on a regular desktop computer... figured out some things to bring back the good parts of W7 so that makes it bit easier. overall runs pretty smooth, my only gripe though is that it tends to "dumb down" certain processes, application executions etc which i never had an issue with in the first place...

[AaronK]

I cant stand it. Its still garbage IMO unless you have a touch screen.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by AaronK
I cant stand it. Its still garbage IMO unless you have a touch screen.

My point exactly.

Blanket statements from the masses who have no idea what their talking about.

[Vagabond142]

Windows 8, as a kernel, is actually quite nice. Windows 8, as an interface (ie Metro), makes me want to punt baby puppies in the face.

And I work in IT as well, so I get to hear the long and the short of it from clients, including those deploying Server 2012.

[Idiot Stick]

Originally posted by Xtrema
Its so bad that IBM is contemplating quiting the server business and sell to Lenovo.


Source? I've heard absolutely nothing about it and these things generally come through the pipeline to its technical employees such as myself

[ExtraSlow]

like this. http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/fuck-you-flowers.jpg

[taemo]

I've had Win 8 installed on my main pc and laptop at home and don't mind it, but then again I have Start 8 installed.

At work, we are still on Win XP SP3 and will be deploying Win 7, 90% of our servers are already Win 2008.
Absolutely no plan on Win 2012 Server or Win 8 yet.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Seth1968
My point exactly.

Blanket statements from the masses who have no idea what their talking about. Yup. But don't forget. Those masses are the ones that will not be putting their cash down for it. Remember OS/2? It was superior to the other operating systems of it's time in pretty much every respect. But failed to become adopted by those "ignorant" masses. What happened to it?

[AndyL]

Ok, whats this remove metro hack y'all speak of?

Found a way to turn off gestures or whatever they call the touchpad idiocy - that was a Good start. But I'd love to fully go back to a win7 style interface - its on a laptop not a frigging phone, I think they forgot that we expect things to function again...

[supe]

IMO people who don't like W8 are dinosaurs who don't like change. I commend Microsoft for putting out a beautiful looking product that is highly functional if you learn to use it.

Having said that, for the people who say it is touch screen optimized, you're right but its also keyboard optimized. If you seriously are mousing through the menu's, you are a dinosaur. Learn to hit the windows key and start typing the application you're looking for. This even goes for W7.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by supe
If you seriously are mousing through the menu's, you are a dinosaur.

OMG.... I'm laughing that you honestly said that. Are you old enough to remember OS/s that didn't have mouse support? They all died out like dinosaurs with the coming of the... wait for it... "graphical interface". That's when keyboard optimized OS's went the way of the dinosaur.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by AndyL
Ok, whats this remove metro hack y'all speak of?





http://www.classicshell.net/

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by codetrap
Yup. But don't forget. Those masses are the ones that will not be putting their cash down for it. Remember OS/2? It was superior to the other operating systems of it's time in pretty much every respect. But failed to become adopted by those "ignorant" masses. What happened to it?

I addressed all of that in my original post.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by AndyL
Ok, whats this remove metro hack y'all speak of?

Found a way to turn off gestures or whatever they call the touchpad idiocy - that was a Good start. But I'd love to fully go back to a win7 style interface - its on a laptop not a frigging phone, I think they forgot that we expect things to function again... This is the perfect example of why Win8 will probably fail. The average user. A typical example of the the millions of people that will choose, or not choose to lay down their cash when the rubber meets the road. People hear about it from their friends, who describe how it's basically unusable, and they have to re-learn how to use it all over again, and they don't care enough to put all that time into it. People like my dad, who will happily go out and spend $3k on a laptop, then bring it to me to have Win7 installed on it because he just wants it to work.

Then you have to "hack" win8 to use the classic shell. Because hacking an OS is something corporations with support contracts want to do all the time....

Numbers don't lie guys.. currently, Win8 is a failure. The adoption numbers are even worse than Vista, most developers don't want to touch it, and most users are happy with Win7 and don't want to pay for something they keep hearing sucks.


Originally posted by Seth1968
I addressed all of that in my original post.
Yeah, you did, but not great. The issue isn't the marketing. The issue is the shitty design. It's not failing due to consumer ignorance. It's failing because MS tried to foist their idiotic design on the public and the public is saying WTF? It fails the basic test for good design. "Can you sit down and just use it?"... if the answer it no, then the product has failed.

You can design the coolest car in the world with the all the integration of fighter jet technology complete with HUD, drive by joystick, holographic displays, adaptive grip tires and inertial dampeners. But if you nobody can drive it without taking a specific week long course, who's gonna buy it? So, when the company goes tit's up because they're not selling any cars, who failed? The consumer, who's too ignorant to drive it? Or the designer, who made it too complex to drive?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Idiot Stick



Source? I've heard absolutely nothing about it and these things generally come through the pipeline to its technical employees such as myself

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/04/ibm-looks-to-sell-its-x86-server-business-to-lenovo-as-profits-crash/

X series basically. Their AS400 line are still very profitable because they don't run Windows.


Originally posted by supe
IMO people who don't like W8 are dinosaurs who don't like change. I commend Microsoft for putting out a beautiful looking product that is highly functional if you learn to use it.

Having said that, for the people who say it is touch screen optimized, you're right but its also keyboard optimized. If you seriously are mousing through the menu's, you are a dinosaur. Learn to hit the windows key and start typing the application you're looking for. This even goes for W7.

I personally has no problem with changes. I ended up with using windows key to navigate around Metro. But if people are finding all kinds of shortcut, 3rd party programs and hacks to get around your design, you have already failed.

2nd when you have to run a company of over 1000 people, there are costs involved when making drastic changes to GUI. Nobody's core business is learning how to use Excel or waste time navigating Metro. If it's not intuitive, it'll fail. And Metro is far from intuitive.

When win95 came to the scene, there are no other options in other computing platforms for the masses. App devs conformed and we are stuck with that UI for 20 years now.

Windows no longer has the clout to force UI changes and the masses have moved on to Android and IOS devices. App devs now have options to ignore windows.

[supe]

Originally posted by codetrap


OMG.... I'm laughing that you honestly said that. Are you old enough to remember OS/s that didn't have mouse support? They all died out like dinosaurs with the coming of the... wait for it... "graphical interface". That's when keyboard optimized OS's went the way of the dinosaur.

Are you keeping up with the market TODAY where Android and iOS that are ripping the PC market apart with no mouse in site. The mouse is clunky and slow, a perfect tool for a dinosaur LIKE YOU.

Ok I'll agree that most of the market still expects mouse support for their PC use but if you actually learn to use the keyboard life becomes so much better.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by supe


Are you keeping up with the market TODAY where Android and iOS that are ripping the PC market apart with no mouse in site. The mouse is clunky and slow, a perfect tool for a dinosaur LIKE YOU.

Ok I'll agree that most of the market still expects mouse support for their PC use but if you actually learn to use the keyboard life becomes so much better.

Metro is fine on tablets. On vertical screens, it sucks. But it would be better if they include Kinect camera for every desktop Metro sold or find ways to integrate that with laptops. Then we can do all "Minority Report" on it.

And codetrap, everything always comes back in full circle. Mainframe made a come back as cloud computing. And keyboard shortcust are IN. :rofl: WYSIWYG is so 90s.

[codetrap]

Originally posted by supe
Are you keeping up with the market TODAY where Android and iOS that are ripping the PC market apart with no mouse in site. The mouse is clunky and slow, a perfect tool for a dinosaur LIKE YOU.

Ok I'll agree that most of the market still expects mouse support for their PC use but if you actually learn to use the keyboard life becomes so much better. LOL. I feel like a dinosaur some days. I'll happily agree with you that Android and iOS using TOUCH SCREENS is a WONDERFUL innovation. I turfed my PalmIIIx when the iPhone came out and I could read books on it, AND surf the web, and I didn't have to carry around a Stylus (phone mouse) anymore. And t was in COLOR.. WOOT!.

But, comparing a handheld/tablet OS to a desktop OS? C'mon man. :)

So, there's one thing that nobody has really mentioned... I personally hate fingerprints on my monitors. If I have to move to Win8 and buy 2x 21" touchscreens in order to use something simply like copy and paste... which I use ALL the time while setting up services on the network. I'd have to have to type out by hand the last Juniper config I did. It was almost 12k lines...

[supe]

Originally posted by Xtrema

I personally has no problem with changes. I ended up with using windows key to navigate around Metro. But if people are finding all kinds of shortcut, 3rd party programs and hacks to get around your design, you have already failed.

2nd when you have to run a company of over 1000 people, there are costs involved when making drastic changes to GUI. Nobody's core business is learning how to use Excel or waste time navigating Metro. If it's not intuitive, it'll fail. And Metro is far from intuitive.

When win95 came to the scene, there are no other options in other computing platforms for the masses. App devs conformed and we are stuck with that UI for 20 years now.

Windows no longer has the clout to force UI changes and the masses have moved on to Android and IOS devices. App devs now have options to ignore windows.

For the most part I actually agree with you. The market is clearly speaking and the ball is in Microsofts court to do something about it.

My point really is I give Microsoft a ton of credit for trying something new and if you learn to use it, its really a better product. We've seen blackberry and now iOS fall from their pedestals because they didn't innovate as fast as the market expected.

I just love seeing advances in technology, both in software and hardware. Even if it doesn't work, Microsoft will learn from it and release an even better product.

[DeleriousZ]

Aren't all computers moving towards ocular tracking, voice control and then thought-integration control? who needs a keyboard when you just think what you want to type!

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by codetrap
So, there's one thing that nobody has really mentioned... I personally hate fingerprints on my monitors. If I have to move to Win8 and buy 2x 21" touchscreens in order to use something simply like copy and paste... which I use ALL the time while setting up services on the network. I'd have to have to type out by hand the last Juniper config I did. It was almost 12k lines...

That's the other downfall of Metro for the experience users. They force one app per screen unless you switch back to desktop mode, which is totally retarded. And Metro is how they want the dev to write to.

[AndyL]

Originally posted by codetrap
This is the perfect example of why Win8 will probably fail. The average user. A typical example of the the millions of people that will choose, or not choose to lay down their cash when the rubber meets the road. People hear about it from their friends, who describe how it's basically unusable, and they have to re-learn how to use it all over again, and they don't care enough to put all that time into it. People like my dad, who will happily go out and spend $3k on a laptop, then bring it to me to have Win7 installed on it because he just wants it to work.


i think the major problem with it is the shortcuts and the fact that we're running xp/win7 interface programs on it...

99% of my issue with it - is the file menu - i mouse over there, click, find myself in the start menu, go to close a browser tab - on the start menu again... go top right to X out a program - wtf menu was that? Cant remember - gotten into alt-f4 habit again. the shortcut targets are too big, it obstructs the functionality of everything... yes thats for touchscreen devices, but i'm not using one - and the popup shortcuts now make it 1000x harder to do a basic operation, yes i can hit alt f - but then i have to put my coffee down :rofl:

[SportEL]

Originally posted by AndyL
Ok, whats this remove metro hack y'all speak of?

Found a way to turn off gestures or whatever they call the touchpad idiocy - that was a Good start. But I'd love to fully go back to a win7 style interface - its on a laptop not a frigging phone, I think they forgot that we expect things to function again...

I posted in the prior page to just install Start8. It's the best thing ever. 30 day trial. Then it's $4-5 after, but it is totally worth it.

[Maybelater]

Aha, Windows 8 is a failure. They are reporting that PC sales have dropped over 10% since Windows 8. I agree with a previous poster, you're right that many people are scared of Windows 8 because they can't adapt to the change of technology.

But, I don't know how Microsoft didn't see that, I really really don't, we live in a time period where a large portion of people over 30 still have trouble operating a computer and you just changed everything on them.

But who knows, maybe once the next generation is out Microsoft will tweak out the problems.

[revelations]

Originally posted by Maybelater
But, I don't know how Microsoft didn't see that, I really really don't, we live in a time period where a large portion of people over 30 still have trouble operating a computer and you just changed everything on them.

Microsoft is famous for

a) being late to the party,
b) completely out of touch with the average PC home user or
c) delivering absolute garbage software thats nowhere near ready for deployment


Its like they have had Gates' pet projects handed to the dev team sometimes.

http://www.complexmag.ca/tech/2009/05/a-history-of-microsofts-biggest-failures

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by Maybelater
we live in a time period where a large portion of people over 30 still have trouble operating a computer and you just changed everything on them.


LOL, this is the most retarded thing ive heard all day. How old are you, 14?

[revelations]

Originally posted by FixedGear


LOL, this is the most retarded thing ive heard all day. How old are you, 14?

I dont think hes that far off. :dunno:

[FixedGear]

I don't think I know a single person under the age of 50 who can't operate a computer. In fact, the only person I know who doesn't really use a computer is my 87 year old grandmother.

I'm 34, and used computers since I was old enough to read. We were lucky to have one at home, but we also used them from the first year I started school. I'm pretty sure that everyone in their 30s used computers all throughout school.

Don't trust anyone over 30. :facepalm:

[codetrap]

Originally posted by FixedGear
I'm pretty sure that everyone in their 30s used computers all throughout school.

Don't trust anyone over 30. :facepalm: I'm 38 and I remember when we got computers in school It was grade 7. Even then we only had a very short course on them in high school. Nothing like today.

When I was going to College, the height of technology was the 486DX2 x66, and 16Mb of ram was $1200

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by codetrap
I'm 38 and I remember when we got computers in school It was grade 7. Even then we only had a very short course on them in high school. Nothing like today.

When I was going to College, the height of technology was the 486DX2 x66, and 16Mb of ram was $1200

but clearly you understand how to work a computer, as does everyone else from (y)our generation. :dunno:

[Maybelater]

Maybe 30 was a bad cutnoff, but honestly the rate of two finger typers goes up more and more with age. I've met lots of guys around the 50 group who avoid computers as much as they can.

Not being able to operate a computer is a bad way to put it, being proficient is the issue.

[speedog]

Originally posted by Maybelater
Maybe 30 was a bad cutnoff, but honestly the rate of two finger typers goes up more and more with age. I've met lots of guys around the 50 group who avoid computers as much as they can.

Not being able to operate a computer is a bad way to put it, being proficient is the issue.

Am over 50, am a guy (last time I checked) and am still very much a two finger typer (sometimes throw a thumb or two in for good measure), always will be. Have been actively involved with computers since the late 70's (probably a bit before you were even a wet dream) - first real exposure was a PDP1140, punch tape and real toggle key programming. That thing is probably the reason for me still using less than a handful of digits to this day.

Fast forward to now and I still actively use computing devices to simplify my life whether it be through actual devices or web sites (IFTTT, Logmein and Dropbox are some of the best helpers out there for me). As a 30+ dinosaur, I still write basic scripts that run silently in the background to do tasks that I would have to otherwise hopefully expect my staff to do for me and then let IFTTT and Dropbox do the rest. My Dad, at 77, bought his first computer some 10+ years ago, bought some books to read and learn about it and both him and my grandmother never call me for help.

My mouse - still love it and am currently posting this from a 10 year old XP box that works perfectly fine for it's purpose. What I have issues with is that god damn iPad2 - so useless for trying to do real work on. Great as a toy/entertainment device or showing pictures/looking at web sites but my god, why does real productive stuff have to be so difficult to do on that thing compared to my Galaxy S3? BTW, also got three windows 7 boxes in the house and don't mind that OS - maybe I should fire up my old IBM PC with 95 on it and make a few posts (now a keepsake).

Anyhow, I know lots of 50+ people who actively use computing devices and very proficiently at the same time. At the same time, there are multitudes out there that have these very capable devices who use them just to surf, text and watch videos and somehow these folks (most of them under 30) are more proficient because they can type with more than two fingers? Shit, I just see these proficient kids eyes glaze over when I start discussing what a computing device can really do for them - shit, it's too technical for them if it's more than Facebook or watching that video on their iPod/iPad/iPhone.

[Maybelater]

People are taking this too personal. I didn't imply at any point that ALL older folk are outdated, useless and can't use a computer. That wasn't my point at all. And I wasn't talking about the technical end of computers because its basic functions we are talking about.

All I was saying is that its often older people who struggle with basic operation of a computer, but, yes, lots don't struggle with them and yes their is young people who are pretty computer illiterate. But when so many people still have issues with the basic functions of a computer, chances are totally changing the system is going to cause issues and those people are often the ones who struggle the most to adapt. I don't think I've ever met a young person who can't turn on and run a computer with some proficiency. But I've met enough older people who fail to even figure out how to navigate the Internet or if they computer does anything remotely unattended they are totally confused and need help.

[WhippWhapp]

Replaced the family room PC with an older(but much more svelte) HP Touchsmart AIO that came with Win7.

Swapped out the 320gb HDD for my old Intel 80gb SSD, fresh install of Win8 with Classic Shell, and the family is very happy.

Despite the older Core2Duo the system is very snappy, streams 1080p MKV's from the WHS fine and my 5yr old can fire up Netflix on her own from Metro using the touchscreen.

After I add a Logitech wireless touchpad for gestures, it should be pretty much perfect.

[flipstah]

For the ones that has used Windows 8 on a tablet (Lenovo® IdeaTab™ LYNX, Microsoft Surface), is it possible to install software (such as a diagnostics tool with a USB->OBDII dongle)?

I'm looking to get a tablet that can do this and the simple stuff (view pictures from an SD card, internet browse, read PDF's like a Kindle). Hoping Windows 8 isn't restricted.

Otherwise, I'd probably just look for a cheap netbook or an Android tablet, wipe it out, install XP.

[revelations]

Originally posted by flipstah
For the ones that has used Windows 8 on a tablet (Lenovo® IdeaTab™ LYNX, Microsoft Surface), is it possible to install software (such as a diagnostics tool with a USB->OBDII dongle)?

I'm looking to get a tablet that can do this and the simple stuff (view pictures from an SD card, internet browse, read PDF's like a Kindle). Hoping Windows 8 isn't restricted.

Otherwise, I'd probably just look for a cheap netbook or an Android tablet, wipe it out, install XP.

As long as your OBD2 software supports W8, it would be fine.

[TorqueDog]

FYI: Windows 8.1 preview is now available to the public: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/preview-download

I did hear some things about 32-bit Atom processors not playing nicely with it, so for the time being, avoid attempting to install on any of the Intel Atom-based notebooks/tablets.

[M.alex]

I'm still using windows XP .... nothing wrong with it after all this time :dunno:

[ZEDGE]

Running 8.1 on my laptop. You can now boot to desktop and the start button is back, although it takes you to the start screen. Lots of other things here and there too.

[dirtsniffer]

Is windows 8 pro worth the extra 35 bucks over windows 8?

[dirtsniffer]

I don't think pro includes many feaetures that I would need to have, but i am thinking you guys know more than i do

[sabad66]

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/compare

Do you use remote desktop at all?
Do you want to encrypt your hard drive?
Do you need to connect to a domain? (99% of the time this is no if it's personal PC)

If you answered yes to any of the above, then you need pro. Otherwise the normal edition is fine.

[Mibz]

Standard edition doesn't have RDP? Oh lawd.

[sabad66]

I think it has the client, but just doesn't allow you to host.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by Maybelater
People are taking this too personal. I didn't imply at any point that ALL older folk are outdated, useless and can't use a computer. That wasn't my point at all. And I wasn't talking about the technical end of computers because its basic functions we are talking about.

All I was saying is that its often older people who struggle with basic operation of a computer, but, yes, lots don't struggle with them and yes their is young people who are pretty computer illiterate. But when so many people still have issues with the basic functions of a computer, chances are totally changing the system is going to cause issues and those people are often the ones who struggle the most to adapt. I don't think I've ever met a young person who can't turn on and run a computer with some proficiency. But I've met enough older people who fail to even figure out how to navigate the Internet or if they computer does anything remotely unattended they are totally confused and need help.

Don't even talk to me about most seniors trying to use a computer.


It's like going into a bank lineup and seeing some seniors in front of you. Then it's like, explain every detail of a bank notebook, and figure out why that teller is just not interested in you.

[firebane]

Originally posted by Mibz
Standard edition doesn't have RDP? Oh lawd.

Neither does Windows 7 Home Premium and if you want to you need Professional.

And unlike some people I do like to RDP into my systems.

[ipeefreely]

Originally posted by firebane


Neither does Windows 7 Home Premium and if you want to you need Professional.

And unlike some people I do like to RDP into my systems.
There's a work around called "Concurrent Sessions". I use it for my Win 7 HP boxes.

Win 8/8.1 Pro also has Hyper-V as an add-on if you like playing around with virtualization.

On that note, anyone do the "free" upgrade to 8.1 yet? I just finished about an hour ago on my laptop... went pretty smooth! :thumbsup:

[Tik-Tok]

Anyone else catch Windows 8.1 gongshow on Reddit?