747 crashes in Afghanistan - on video

[black13]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518

Just watching it made my stomach drop. :eek:

At least it was a cargo plane but 7 people were on board. RIP

[Aleks]

Looks like he stalled it. Wonder if whatever they were carrying wasn't properly balanced and shifted the CG back as the nose pitched up.

Either way never seen a vid quite like this before. :eek:

[Tik-Tok]

:eek:

Looks like a stall, that was quite the fucking steep pitch beforehand, especially if it wasn't empty.

[lilmira]

Mechanical malfunction? RIP mother goose

[rage2]

I've been watching way too many ep's of Mayday/Air Disasters, and I think Aleks is probably right. The landing gear was still down, so the problem must have happened pretty early on (landing gears are retracted pretty much right after rotation) and there was no recovery possible. Probably load shifting from the rapid climbout to minimize surface to air missile risks, and once all that weight shifts to the back, you're done.

Doesn't look like a mechanical problem to me. The pilots would've reduced the climb to stop the stall if it was a mechanical issue. The plane looked nearly vertical, way more angle than a normal rapid climb. With all the weight shifting to the back, there was no way you could reduce the climb angle.

[03ozwhip]

Originally posted by black13
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c32_1367332518

Just watching it made my stomach drop. :eek:

At least it was a cargo plane but 7 people were on board. RIP

fuck me. im not scared of flying but this is definitely my worst fear. i have dreams about this shit happening, but im always watching it happen.

i feel like its almost worse to watch it happen. ugh. dont like.

[Maxx Mazda]

Standard departure stall. AVHerald is saying load shift.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by rage2
I've been watching way too many ep's of Mayday/Air Disasters, and I think Aleks is probably right. The landing gear was still down, so the problem must have happened pretty early on (landing gears are retracted pretty much right after rotation) and there was no recovery possible. Probably load shifting from the rapid climbout to minimize surface to air missile risks, and once all that weight shifts to the back, you're done.

Doesn't look like a mechanical problem to me. The pilots would've reduced the climb to stop the stall if it was a mechanical issue. The plane looked nearly vertical, way more angle than a normal rapid climb. With all the weight shifting to the back, there was no way you could reduce the climb angle.

I have a series recording for Mayday setup on my PVR. Latest episode showing how the Lokomotiv KHL team crashed was pretty sad. Such pilot fail.

[Lex350]

I've read on a bunch of sites that it was a load shift during takeoff. Load shifts to the back...plane stalls.


In the aviation thread @ Skyscraperpage they said this aircraft had been to Calgary before delivering horses to Spruce Meadows.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Maxx Mazda
Standard departure stall. AVHerald is saying load shift.
I'll bet that if this plane + cargo took off at any other airport that didn't require such a steep rapid climbout to avoid ground attacks, the load probably wouldn't have become unsecured.

The pilots looked like they did a good job recovering from the problem. It's too bad they didn't have another 6-7000ft of air.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Maxx Mazda
Standard departure stall. AVHerald is saying load shift.

I don't know, I am speaking as an EX-PPL holder, with no jet time, but, my observations:

Hard to say if it is a load shift, I mean it makes sense, but this is 100% a stall on take off.

[spikerS]

Originally posted by rage2



The pilots looked like they did a good job recovering from the problem. It's too bad they didn't have another 6-7000ft of air.

There was no room to even attempt recovery of a plane that size at that low altitude.

The plane did exactly what is expected in a stall and became a rock, and for a plane that size, IMO, they are going to need pretty much double your estimate to perform a safe stall recovery.

*edit* what I mean to say is, that once that stall happened, all control became dead. The pilots could be going to town on the flight yolk and rudder pedals, but there was just not enough air speed over any of the control surfaces to be anywhere remotely effective.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Aleks
I have a series recording for Mayday setup on my PVR. Latest episode showing how the Lokomotiv KHL team crashed was pretty sad. Such pilot fail.
Yup, saw that the other night. Can't believe such a stupid mistake wiped out an entire elite hockey team.

My favorite is the Sully Hudson River episode. So badass.


Originally posted by rotten42
In the aviation thread @ Skyscraperpage they said this aircraft had been to Calgary before delivering horses to Spruce Meadows.
Looks like you're right.

http://mail.jetvideos.net/viewphoto.php?id=7560613&nseq=5

[eblend]

Originally posted by rage2


My favorite is the Sully Hudson River episode. So badass.



Yeppers, saw this a few days ago as well. I am really looking forward to the KHL episode, hopefully its sitting waiting for me on the PVR.

That crash is definatelly one of the worst ones I have seen. All the reneactments or amature video on mayday don't compare to the insanity of this crash. So sad

[rage2]

Originally posted by spikers
I don't know, I am speaking as an EX-PPL holder, with no jet time, but, my observations:

Hard to say if it is a load shift, I mean it makes sense, but this is 100% a stall on take off.
Well pretty obvious it was a stall on take off, but I mean way before it actually stopped dead in the air, the stall warning would've been going nuts in the cockpit. So unless the pilots were retarded, they would've nosed down the plane and easily recovered well before the plane was even in view of the camera. The fact that the plane maintained a ridiculous nose up attitude means that something was wrong, and most likely load shifting rearwards keeping the nose way up through the whole ordeal. Even if it was engine failure during takeoff/climb there would've been enough airspeed to get the nose down.


Originally posted by spikers
There was no room to even attempt recovery of a plane that size at that low altitude.

The plane did exactly what is expected in a stall and became a rock, and for a plane that size, IMO, they are going to need pretty much double your estimate to perform a safe stall recovery.

*edit* what I mean to say is, that once that stall happened, all control became dead. The pilots could be going to town on the flight yolk and rudder pedals, but there was just not enough air speed over any of the control surfaces to be anywhere remotely effective.
Yea I was just guessing on the 6-7000 ft. Looks like the plane did recover nose down as it crashed, figured 6-7k ft would be enough to gain some airspeed to get out of the stall. Of course that doesn't account for load shifting forward afterwards, they might've been stuck in a steep dive anyways if this did happen way up in the air.

[Lex350]

I always watch Mayday. I've even got my kids into it.

[sillysod]

Originally posted by rotten42
Load shifts to the back...plane stalls.



We have a small twin engine and people moving around when you're climbing makes a difference.

As soon as that load shifted that plane was doomed. That being said - contrary to popular belief - I think it is probably one of the best ways to go. No months dying in a bed with cancer or hours laying under a collapsed building. 15 seconds of "OH SHIT!!!!" and then game over.

[GS430]

Link doesn't work anymore for me. Here's a youtube one.

My stomach dropped watching that..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icfVsql38oc

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by rotten42
I always watch Mayday. I've even got my kids into it.

Have fun driving to Disneyland. ;)

[thetransporter]

does anyone want to share Mayday HD? series?

[rage2]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat
Have fun driving to Disneyland. ;)
:rofl:

I wonder how kids react to the show. For me, I've learned a few things of what to do and what not to do in a crash, and where to sit on a plane. Definately helping my survival odds! Just sucks that business/first class are the first to die! haha

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

My dad used to show me things like this when I was little, shit happens but I'm still totally comfortable flying.

My dad used to fly gliders and do testing for the British Military, and has a degree in Aeronatics and Astronautics, if he doesn't seem overly worried with air travel I'm just gonna trust him :P

[GS430]

Originally posted by Twin_Cam_Turbo
My dad used to show me things like this when I was little, shit happens but I'm still totally comfortable flying.

My dad used to fly gliders and do testing for the British Military, and has a degree in Aeronatics and Astronautics, if he doesn't seem overly worried with air travel I'm just gonna trust him :P

My dad can beat up your dad.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Originally posted by GS430


My dad can beat up your dad.

That's not the point, I'm saying it didn't really faze me when I was young, I don't think most kids would worry as they grew up and stay scared.

[OU812]

Originally posted by rage2

Well pretty obvious it was a stall on take off, but I mean way before it actually stopped dead in the air, the stall warning would've been going nuts in the cockpit.

The plane was at 1200 feet when it lost lift. Impossible to do anyting at that altitude.

[rage2]

Originally posted by OU812
The plane was at 1200 feet when it lost lift. Impossible to do anyting at that altitude.
Yea, don't think we were debating that one. Whatever caused it to go nose up and stay nose up made it unrecoverable at that altitude.

[roopi]

Global News just reported that Taliban claimed responsibility for this. Automobiles were part of the cargo as well.

[revelations]

I want to hear the CVR ....

[5fivespeed]

That CVR is probably long gone...

[flipstah]

Just dropped like a rock!

Statistically, planes are safer than driving so keep that in mind. What channel is Mayday on?

[Lex350]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSplat


Have fun driving to Disneyland. ;)

The Kids have no problem flying. We watched an episode right before we left for the airport last time for Mexico. What I tell them is that the investigations that are depicted on that show is what makes flying safer.

[1barA4]

The Air France episode was far more disturbing. Senior pilot takes nap, leaves co-pilot in charge. Speed sensor takes a crap (but no stall warning), so the co-pilot inexplicably throttles DOWN and pulls nose up at maximum angle of attack possible.

Senior pilot wakes up, yells at co-pilot for not throttling down enough, basically puts throttle at zero and now both are pulling on the stick back to climb harder. Stall warning is losing it's mind. Pilots contine to pull back and leave throttle zeroed until plane stalls, then crashes and people die.


(It's the Air France 447 episode, crappily summarized)

[rage2]

The AF447 episode hasn't aired yet but I've read pretty much everything on it already. Pretty sure throttle was maxed at TOGA and the plane dropped because Bonin kept his stick pulled back the whole time, and the angle of attack way way too high causing loss of airspeed and stall. All he had to do was push the stick forward, dived to regain airspeed and leveled out.

The captain took forever to get back because he was doing something with an off duty stewardess who flew with him on that flight. That wasn't covered in the official report, just in the media, and explains why it took him so long to respond to the cockpit calls.

[osspasha]

fuck thats why i hate planes, just u r sitting there not knowing wat can happen or goes wrong. and when something goes wrong u basically sitting there screaming and waiting to die

[Tik-Tok]

There were 3 pilots on AF447, the Captain was out of the flight deck when the shit started, but there were still two pilots flying. One of the biggest problems with FBW is that one pilot doesn't know what the other is doing. So while the PIC was going nose up the entire time the other pilot didn't know, and if he did, he could have told him to let the fuck go.

Either way, it was both their faults, and the captains fault when he came back to the flight deck, because all they had to do was look at the SAI to know what was going on.

[J-D]

Originally posted by rage2
The AF447 episode hasn't aired yet but I've read pretty much everything on it already. Pretty sure throttle was maxed at TOGA and the plane dropped because Bonin kept his stick pulled back the whole time, and the angle of attack way way too high causing loss of airspeed and stall. All he had to do was push the stick forward, dived to regain airspeed and leveled out.

The captain took forever to get back because he was doing something with an off duty stewardess who flew with him on that flight. That wasn't covered in the official report, just in the media, and explains why it took him so long to respond to the cockpit calls.

It's on the internet with german text... lol :bigpimp:

[n1zm0]

Originally posted by osspasha
fuck thats why i hate planes, just u r sitting there not knowing wat can happen or goes wrong. and when something goes wrong u basically sitting there screaming and waiting to die

well in most cases upon powerplant failure at least you can glide to the ground in fixed wing (and survive with the right circumstances like pilot experience/speed/sufficient ditch area - think Chelsey Sullenberger and the Hudson river incident) , if you lose the ability to auto rotate in a rotorcraft on engine failure or the jesus nut/pin fails (which is somewhat rare), you're just a brick in the sky.

[Maybelater]

Originally posted by osspasha
fuck thats why i hate planes, just u r sitting there not knowing wat can happen or goes wrong. and when something goes wrong u basically sitting there screaming and waiting to die

At any moment you could die, medical or otherwise. Damn, somebody can press a button and take you and everyone else out. No point in even worrying about it. At least it was fast.

[Maybelater]

I don't know why so many people on YT are commmentting with surprise about the persons reaction. Okay, yes, that is an insane thing to see. But, being a person on a military base in Afganistan I it probably isn't the first time he has seen some crazy shit. Besides, his driving back and forth probably is a good sign he was feeling a bit panicked and didn't know what to do.

It isn't like he is going to hero his way to the crash anyway, so much heat you probably can't even get close.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Maybelater
I don't know why so many people on YT are commmentting with surprise about the persons reaction. Okay, yes, that is an insane thing to see. But, being a person on a military base in Afganistan I it probably isn't the first time he has seen some crazy shit. Besides, his driving back and forth probably is a good sign he was feeling a bit panicked and didn't know what to do.

It isn't like he is going to hero his way to the crash anyway, so much heat you probably can't even get close.

Because Jon Stewart made jokes about how calm all those Russians were when they saw the meteor, so now it's the thing to talk about.

[Cooked Rice]

No air going over any of the control surfaces at that angle to have any effect what is done on the controls. Stall recovery is very difficult in a scenario like this, even if this happened at 40,000 ft, the higher you're up, the thinner the air, the more altitude required to recover. Also keep in mind, when a load shifts inside, the chances of it damaging vital components is very high. When the load shifted to the aft, I am very certain it penetrated the rear bulkhead and damaged components required to control the elevator/horizontal stab pitch/rudder.

[Maxx Mazda]

Another thought I had is not load shift, but what about improperly set stab trim? I'm not familiar with the 47 but I know on some of the stud I've flown if the stab trim is super out to lunch no amount of elevator input will be able to overcome it.

[Cooked Rice]

Yes could be possibility as well. If incorrect W&B info is given to the flight crew they could have set the trim wrong for takeoff. Could also have been possible the load plan was correct, but it was loaded in the wrong order as well, where things were placed where they shouldn't have been. Could have been a scenario where by the time they corrected the trim, the A/C nose was already too high, straps broke etc, domino effect of the equipment in the back. When it pitched forward, all the equipment probably slid to the nose.

[sillysod]

He didn't have time to get the gear up even after take off. So things would have started going sideways with in 10 - 20 seconds of being airborne.

Poorly loaded or a shifted load would have had the pilots doing everything to get the nose down pretty much as soon as it got off the runway.

Crazy thing is even something as big as a 747 stalls exactly the same as a small Cessna. It's so strange seeing something so big going into a stall.

[Cooked Rice]

The horizontal stab trim does not move as fast as the elevator. It is very slow moving when you adjust it, and it's over twice the size as the elevator itself and overpowers the elevator. Full deflection of the elevator takes under a second, while the horizontal stab can take well over 10 seconds to move from top to bottom of it's reach. Before takeoff they input the W/B numbers to retrieve centre of gravity data, and set the trim so the elevator can have effective control of the A/C once airborne, as well as other items like V1 and rotation speed. If set wrong, the horizontal stab is taking you for a ride.

I wonder if they have video anywhere of it rolling on the runway, I'm almost certain it would have struck the tail on rotation.

Here is a demonstration of the jack screw in the tail that moves the horizontal stab in order to trim it.

mFq06tGuxak

[Aleks]

Originally posted by sillysod
He didn't have time to get the gear up even after take off. So things would have started going sideways with in 10 - 20 seconds of being airborne.

Poorly loaded or a shifted load would have had the pilots doing everything to get the nose down pretty much as soon as it got off the runway.

Crazy thing is even something as big as a 747 stalls exactly the same as a small Cessna. It's so strange seeing something so big going into a stall.

To me watching that video it looks like they were extending the gears back out as they went down.

[sillysod]

^^ That would be the absolute worst thing you could do in a stall. Guaranteed they just didn't even get to wheels up before shit hit the fan.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by sillysod
^^ That would be the absolute worst thing you could do in a stall. Guaranteed they just didn't even get to wheels up before shit hit the fan.

That's what it looks like in the vid. If you look at the front wheel it looks like it's coming out as they get closer to the ground. Maybe they were hoping for a hard crash landing on the wheels if they could pick up some forward momentum?

[Cooked Rice]

Leaving the gear down actually pushes the nose down if the A/C has not stalled yet. There was a similar incident years back where a cargo aircraft was loaded wrong, and upon gear retraction on take off, the A/C pitched up uncontrollably.