Replacing Airbag seats with buckets legal?

[CSMRX7]

Just curious if it is legal to replace reclinable seats with airbags with non-reclinable non-airbag seats? Also if injured in an accident could this affect my ability to make a claim?

[Hallowed_point]

It's probably legal as in you won't get a ticket from cps,
however insurance would frown on you removing safety
equipment without a doubt. I'd say it's in the same category
as racing steering wheels, cages etc/

[CSMRX7]

I know with a steering wheel you are removing a required safety device but side airbags are an optional device so not sure if they are treated differently.

[94boosted]

Really good question also interested in this as I want buckets too.

Another thing to consider is that when you pull the factory seats (with side airbags) the airbag "system" isn't working and is probably going to throw a fault code so in the event of an accident would the other airbags in the car deploy properly? I couldn't get a straight answer on this either. I guess if you get a cage, racing wheel and 5/6 point harness it's a moot point though.

[Heru-Farukon]

To answer the question about deployment. No they would not go off if the fault code is present.

And mentioned above, removing safety equipment will be frown upon when putting a claiming through to the insurance company.

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Isn't your M3 modified enough you already have some special insurance on it? Or are you talking about the Porsche?

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by 94boosted
Really good question also interested in this as I want buckets too.

Another thing to consider is that when you pull the factory seats (with side airbags) the airbag "system" isn't working and is probably going to throw a fault code so in the event of an accident would the other airbags in the car deploy properly? I couldn't get a straight answer on this either. I guess if you get a cage, racing wheel and 5/6 point harness it's a moot point though.



Originally posted by Heru-Farukon
To answer the question about deployment. No they would not go off if the fault code is present.

And mentioned above, removing safety equipment will be frown upon when putting a claiming through to the insurance company.

They will most certainly deploy with a code present.

The only thing that will take place with an airbag light present on the dash or cluster during an accident is the elimination of the faulted module or circuit, all other airbags and supplemental restraint systems will function as normal.

There is alway the option of removing the airbag modules from your stock seat and attatching them to the buckets. Many of the after market apolstry shops will do this when fabricating new seats.

You are required to transfer over the SRS tag from the seats and use airbag approved thread to stitch the seam where the airbag is in place as well.

People who remove them and leave them out typically defeat the warning light by placing a resistor in the circuit but being BMW, that side airbag more than likely has a logic board built in, and will need to be bypassed by another method.

[ercchry]

you should be able to figure out what resistor you need in place of the air bags so no codes are thrown.

EDIT: didnt read all of rick's post

[CSMRX7]

This is for the Porsche. I would be interested to hear from our insurance experts on the site to get their oppinions too.

Retrofitting the airbag is a good idea, but with a hard shell bucket this might not work.

[ercchry]

Rhys has been fitting his 996 with all them fancy factory race parts, buckets, cage, etc... he is under the impression that if it was offered as an option from the factory that it is fine :dunno:

[CSMRX7]

Originally posted by ercchry
Rhys has been fitting his 996 with all them fancy factory race parts, buckets, cage, etc... he is under the impression that if it was offered as an option from the factory that it is fine :dunno:

I can fit the optional GT2 seats as they have side airbags, and this what I will likely do, but also like the clubsport seats that are available in Europe and don't have the airbags.

GT2 Seats
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2008/nopq/2008-Porsche-911-GT2-Bucket-seats-with-foldable-backrest-1280x960.jpg

Clubsport Seats/ Carrer GT Seats
http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/features/epcp_1004_werks_one_porsche_911_turbo/28195312/epcp_1004_05_o%2Bwerks_one_porsche_911_turbo%2Bcarrera_GT_fixed_carbon_seats.jpg

[RickDaTuner]

I would go for the clubman seats, and get Porsche to reprogram the SRS module so it doesn't account for the side airbags.

If its a factory option to delete them and it's reprogrammed by the dealer to omit them in module programming then there really isnt much an insurance company can do.

[CSMRX7]

Not the cheapest seats in the world :)

http://www.suncoastparts.com/product/997GT3SEATS.html?Category_Code=2010GT3_seats

[RickDaTuner]

:eek:

That price is a little over the top.

[CSMRX7]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner
:eek:

That price is a little over the top.

No Kidding they are available for about 8k on the used market. The GT2 seats are buckets that can fold forward for backseat access and with side airbags are about 8k new.

[speedog]

Originally posted by CSMRX7
I know with a steering wheel you are removing a required safety device but side airbags are an optional device so not sure if they are treated differently.
How do you figure this - my 2012 cheap-ass Chev came with standard side airbags as well as standard seat mounted airbags, certainly they were not an option.

[CSMRX7]

Originally posted by speedog

How do you figure this - my 2012 cheap-ass Chev came with standard side airbags as well as standard seat mounted airbags, certainly they were not an option.

Transport Canada does not require on vehicles, although they come as an option or standard on some cars. Drivers and pasenger steering/dash airbags are required by Transport Canada for a car to be legal and as such the car would be illegal to drive without.

[speedog]

Originally posted by CSMRX7
Transport Canada does not require on vehicles, although they come as an option or standard on some cars. Drivers and passenger steering/dash airbags are required by Transport Canada for a car to be legal and as such the car would be illegal to drive without.
K, now that's better - optional per Transport Canada's rules but maybe not so depending on the vehicle/manufacturer.

[HO2S]

I think you will loose all airbag function. If you replace the seats you will loose the occupant classification sensors. With out those sensors the airbag system does not know who is sitting in what seats and does not know what bags to deploy. If you do get all of the airbag gear from you seats installed into the new ones the classification sensors will have to be calibrated.
I don't see a shop putting in airbags in non airbag seat, they would just be asking for a lawsuit.

I would be very suprised if you could just drop resistors in place of the airbags. For first generation airbag systems that would work but not on this car.

I can guarantee you the dealer is going to tell you to pound sand if you want them to change the airbag system. It is illegal for any shop or tech to dissable any safety system in a vehicle. They are going to follow the rpo codes for that car and thats it. If you show up with the sensors and bags in the aftermarket seat they MAY program it but they may not because they are taking on some liability. You are most likely going to have to find a aftermarket shop that has the factory tooling. Or have a light on the dash and possibile no airbags.

[ercchry]

guys with R35 GT-Rs are using these things (the u-turn harness, third from bottom on page linked)

broken engrish tells me it should work on most cars

http://www.worksbell.co.jp/en/products/boss/option.htm

[relyt92]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner





They will most certainly deploy with a code present.

The only thing that will take place with an airbag light present on the dash or cluster during an accident is the elimination of the faulted module or circuit, all other airbags and supplemental restraint systems will function as normal.

There is alway the option of removing the airbag modules from your stock seat and attatching them to the buckets. Many of the after market apolstry shops will do this when fabricating new seats.

You are required to transfer over the SRS tag from the seats and use airbag approved thread to stitch the seam where the airbag is in place as well.

People who remove them and leave them out typically defeat the warning light by placing a resistor in the circuit but being BMW, that side airbag more than likely has a logic board built in, and will need to be bypassed by another method. I don't know if it is different on certain vehicles but I had an airbag light on my 09 civic and was told my both the dealership and online that my airbags would not deploy at all in the event of an accident if the light is on.

[AE92_TreunoSC]

It's a liability so we say it wont deploy.

The light is on due to a small problem but now it's on and you don't know what other underlying codes can be tripped as well, such as main controller fault etc. You wont know if a second fault is ever triggered.

I will always cover my ass when returning an unrepaired airbag fault.

[Isaiah]

Originally posted by CSMRX7
Not the cheapest seats in the world :)

http://www.suncoastparts.com/product/997GT3SEATS.html?Category_Code=2010GT3_seats
What do you mean? You save 9.86% !

Originally posted by www.suncoastparts.com

MSRP: $19,859.00
Price:$17,900.00
You Save: 9.86%

[CSMRX7]

So turns out the since the side airbags are optional the dealer can actually code the car to think there is no side airbags. This is interesting but doesn't solve the insurance issue. As the car came with side airbags would insurance cover a claim if they were removed even though they are an option.

I could always ask my insurance agent but hate asking them questions like this as they just end up flagging your account even if you don't proceed.

[HO2S]

Originally posted by CSMRX7
So turns out the since the side airbags are optional the dealer can actually code the car to think there is no side airbags. This is interesting but doesn't solve the insurance issue. As the car came with side airbags would insurance cover a claim if they were removed even though they are an option.

I could always ask my insurance agent but hate asking them questions like this as they just end up flagging your account even if you don't proceed.
Keep in mind what is said over the phone is very different than what actually happens. I don't see why a reputable dealer would disable airbags. Even if it was a factory option to not have them they are still changing the safety system for that vehicle. Ide say you would drop your car off, then get a phone call saying that they can't/won't do the programming. You still will have to work around occupant sensors.

[ercchry]

Are you missing the part where he is installing OEM seats?

[HO2S]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ercchry
Are you missing the part where he is installing OEM seats? [/QUOTE


All that Im saying is the dealer will not re-program or dissable the airbag system. Even if he puts the GT2 seats in it still may set codes. The airbag squibs may be different.
You are taking a system that was designed to save lives and not be fucked with, then trying to by pass it or cheat it but still have it functual? It doesnt work like that. On top of that no shop will ever take on the responsibly of dissabling a safety system. Shops are getting sued over putting on rims with out tpms sensors in them you think they are going to be taking out airbag systems?


Im no insurance expert but after being in this industry for a long time and seeing the stupid shit people get sued over. Im sure If you take out the airbags and there is a fatality involved I can see you insurance company being difficult because you took out a system that may have saved that life.

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by CSMRX7
So turns out the since the side airbags are optional the dealer can actually code the car to think there is no side airbags. This is interesting but doesn't solve the insurance issue. As the car came with side airbags would insurance cover a claim if they were removed even though they are an option.

I could always ask my insurance agent but hate asking them questions like this as they just end up flagging your account even if you don't proceed.

It's typicall that most German manufactures will only use one module for various cars and have different programming for them. I say get'er done, this methode is always reversible if you want to sell the car as well.

Have some one else call for you, making sure they do not mention your name. I suppose this works best from a different phone number as well.

[94boosted]

What about those of us that don't have an alternative factory option for the seats (not trying to thread jack OP) are we SOL? :(

[CSMRX7]

So I figured out I am too fat for the clubsport/Carrera GT seats so that makes it easy to reject those (but I think the price was enough of an deturant).

The GT2 seats are plug and play and need no coding so that is an option or by a race only seat for the track.

[94boosted]

Originally posted by CSMRX7
or by a race only seat for the track.

And then swap the seat just for track days?

[RickDaTuner]

Originally posted by 94boosted
What about those of us that don't have an alternative factory option for the seats (not trying to thread jack OP) are we SOL? :(

If its a matter of getting rid if the light on the dash, then you'll need to get airbag simulators.

You can try and persuade a technician for your make or parts person to order you a set of the service simulators, or buy the universal ones from eBay or other speed shops.

Your not SOL but the options require a bit more effort.

Like other have mentioned, there are lower models without side airbags, and can be programmed the same way the Porsche would, but it's a little more involved.

In a GM vehs case you have to call Tech Support and get a new programming package for the vin of your Veh, and them reprogram it, but tech support is not so easily persuaded, and something like that will definitely bring up legal red flags from GM directly.

For Fords if you are able to get the proper as-built data for the model without side air bags, then you'll just have to use their scan tool to re write the binary of that module, there is a special code you need to enter to allow this to happen though.

Most imports will be a simulator though

[CSMRX7]

Originally posted by 94boosted


And then swap the seat just for track days?

That would be the plan.

[GTS4tw]

Its pretty funny that of all the parts on that site, seats are the most expensive I could find. Crazy stuff, I didnt even think there were $17,000 seats. I have 10 cars that arent worth as much as those seats combined! haha

[94boosted]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner


If its a matter of getting rid if the light on the dash, then you'll need to get airbag simulators.

You can try and persuade a technician for your make or parts person to order you a set of the service simulators, or buy the universal ones from eBay or other speed shops.

Your not SOL but the options require a bit more effort.

Like other have mentioned, there are lower models without side airbags, and can be programmed the same way the Porsche would, but it's a little more involved.

In a GM vehs case you have to call Tech Support and get a new programming package for the vin of your Veh, and them reprogram it, but tech support is not so easily persuaded, and something like that will definitely bring up legal red flags from GM directly.



They make a simulator specifically for this for my car (http://www.vetteworksonline.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=109) but my only real concern is nobody will gurantee that once the seat airbags are bypassed with this simulator the rest of the airbags will work.



Originally posted by CSMRX7


That would be the plan.

Seems like a lot of work

[RickDaTuner]

100% they will work, I've seen it first hand?

What needs to be explain is that when you remove the side air bag module, and install a simulator, all you are doing is elling the SRS module that there is air bag present. Whet comes time that you may find to itself in a side impact collision, the SRS will attempt to fire the side air bag and it will not deploy because there is no airbag present.

If the SRS module detect a forward or roll over condition, than each airbag will deploy as pre the condition.

When these type of simulator are used a Vehicle with a passenger presence system, then they will tell the SRS module that there is indeed a properly weighted passengers in the passenger seat and deploy as normal.

You cannot by pass a modern car with a passenger presence system due to the SRS system needing to have the weight sensor calibrated and zero'd out ,simulators can not account for this.

There are greater legal ramifications for a manufacturer to say that a supplemental safety system, will not function if one component is faulty, than for a single component to fault and allow th rest of the system to functn as normal in a collision.

[94boosted]

Originally posted by RickDaTuner
100% they will work, I've seen it first hand?

What needs to be explain is that when you remove the side air bag module, and install a simulator, all you are doing is elling the SRS module that there is air bag present. Whet comes time that you may find to itself in a side impact collision, the SRS will attempt to fire the side air bag and it will not deploy because there is no airbag present.

If the SRS module detect a forward or roll over condition, than each airbag will deploy as pre the condition.

When these type of simulator are used a Vehicle with a passenger presence system, then they will tell the SRS module that there is indeed a properly weighted passengers in the passenger seat and deploy as normal.

You cannot by pass a modern car with a passenger presence system due to the SRS system needing to have the weight sensor calibrated and zero'd out ,simulators can not account for this.

There are greater legal ramifications for a manufacturer to say that a supplemental safety system, will not function if one component is faulty, than for a single component to fault and allow th rest of the system to functn as normal in a collision.

Thanks a lot for clearing this up.

If I understand you correctly the weight sensor/bladder on the passenger seat does need to be swapped from the factory seat to the aftermarket seat so that the pass front airbags still functions correctly.

[RickDaTuner]

Yeah that would be the most ideal situation, some of the weight sensing gel packs are bondided to the seat cushion though.

It's often that manufactures will place the air bag and weight sensing circuit in their own sheilded runs to prevent electro magnetic interference from each other as the entire SRS system is very sensitive.

[HO2S]

The whole purpose of the seat sensor is for the airbag module to know who is in what seat and how much they weigh. Depending on how much the occupant weighs and how fast the vehicle is going and how hard the vehicle impacts determines how fast the airbags deploy along with the seat belt pretensioners.

I'm sure you could wire in resistors into the the airbag squibs, seat belt buckle squibs, and occupant sensors to fool the system. But what happens then you actually get into a accident and the airbag module sends 20V to 50V to your little radio shack resistors. Now that you have smashed into something and have possible injuries you have a fire to deal with from the resistors melting because they cannot handle 50v of power. I'd say a little piece of tape over the air bag light would be better.


When you program on a vehicle you have a calibration ID number. The program that you are flashing in has a actual part number from the manufacture according to your vin number. You don't just get a factory scan tool and make up your own shit it doesn't work like that. You cannot program what ever you feel like in a vehicle. If your vin does not correspond with the program you are trying to put in it's not going to happen.