Entry-Level Luxury Sedans: Would you buy?

[Tomaz]

So, I have started looking into purchasing a new vehicle again! Kind of. After cross-shopping eco boxes, hot hatches, and 4x4s, I was going to see what Beyonds opinion is on entry-level luxury cars. I have always been drawn in with words like “build quality”, “refinement”, and “Precision Engineering”, but have always wondered if those fancy words would apply to the lowest ranges of the brand.

My ideals of what a car should be are pointed towards “build quality”. I am not one for gimmicky features like parking assist and GPS. I am more concerned about dash buttons working in the future, panels staying firmly in place, the stitching in the seats keeping, chassis being firm and fun, engine and drivetrain being over engineered, solid driving feel, etc. I want a car that ages gracefully and stays true to the values it was built upon.

The parameters:
Brand New, being financed
$40k or less
Sedan or Estate
Drivetrain can be whatever, but prefer AWD or RWD
Auto and Manual are both acceptable

Some cars that have sparked my interest:
BMW 320i
Lexus is250
Mercedes CLA250
Cadillac ATS
Audi A4
Infinity Q50

So, Beyond, what are your thoughts? Would you buy an entry level luxury car? Which one would you get? Would you rather buy a fully-loaded “commoner” brand for the same money? Feel free to add any vehicles I may have overlooked or would suggest.

[max_boost]

Have a 328X and quite happy with it. :thumbsup:

[Asian_defender]

I was in the same boat as you. Went to test drive everything and looked up reviews. In the end the service at Lexus won me over so I ended up with an is250. Mind you if you're taller then 6 ft you'll probably want to move into the es. Can't beat Lexus for build quality. Even with the improvements on the new IS it's still built for a 5 ft chinaman

[flipstah]

Lexus IS250 RWD drives well and can be bought with AWD but pricing hits close to your mark with options.

If Cadillac is sticking with all touch controls, stay away.

BMW is always good for driving experience but their entry-level offerings are bare for what you get. You have to get goodies so make it somewhat 'luxurious'

Audi A4 is nice but boring.

If the CLA is anything like a C300, then I'd look elsewhere. So many plastics everywhere. Felt so cheap.

Can't say anything about Infiniti.

If it were me, I'd go with either a Lexus or the BMW and go on from there.

[clem24]

If you can stand the look of the Lexus.. Maybe. I'd say Q50 > IS > A4.

But really, with what you're paying for those OTD, you might as well buy Benyl's C63 for the same $$$ and likely suffer almost no depreciation after a few years.

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&postid=4170929#post4170929

[flipstah]

Originally posted by clem24
If you can stand the look of the Lexus.. Maybe. I'd say Q50 > IS > A4.

But really, with what you're paying for those OTD, you might as well buy Benyl's C63 for the same $$$ and likely suffer almost no depreciation after a few years.

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&postid=4170929#post4170929

$40k for a C63? That's a sweet deal for that much powah! :burnout:

Granted, the new Lexus front fascia is... debatable.

Either you love it or you don't. I personally find it to look like a sting-ray and comparable to Acura's 'beak'.

Whatever I would hate, you would love for all I know. :)

[rage2]

The CLA is the odd man out in the list. Competes at a lower sub entry level luxury segment.

[A790]

Buick Verano or Buick Regal?

The new Regal GS is gorgeous and has a 259 hp AWD turbo.

[bleu]

I would buy a more common brand...VW perhaps?

Of that list I prefer th A4.

[Graham_A_M]

I'd say take a Regal GS for a good boot. I bought one a few months back, and I love it. Mine has the 270hp 2.0 turbo, that I just had tuned. Now its 305hp.

Best handling sedan/car I've ever driven, it handles stupidly well, and its a blast to drive.

[colinxx235]

A4 chipped would be my choice

[Sugarphreak]

...

[know1edge]

Lexus wins in reliability

[dirtsniffer]

Fully loaded passat. Vr6 4motion.

[ddduke]

I have personally owned an is250, cts, a handful of newer bmw's, a clk, an m45 and used to have a a4 which I actually loved so much I handed down to the wife because I Couldn't bare to sell.

Here's my personal opinion on you choices.

Merc: great quality, interior stays intact, semi reliable, repair costs were highest out of the whole lineup.

Lexus: No room, felt like I was in a Corolla, doesn't feel like a luxury car at all, feels like an econobox with leather. Service with Lexus is great.

Cadillac: I couldn't get passed how poorly they're made, same interior quality as our company trucks, buttons wear out, check engine lights are constantly on, leather is fucked after a year, etc. I'll never buy one again (besides a classic) or escalade ext for towing.

Infiniti: IMO hands down the best bang for your buck, Most luxury features in class by far. Was super reliable for me, Hyatt service is shit, but that can affect you with more then the infiniti brand. Interior looked like new after 4 years. None of the buttons stopped working. But remember I had an m45, which is a fair bit different then a g37.

BMW: Absolute shit, interior pleather chips, flakes, rips like nothing. Heated seats stopped working on both my 5 and 3 series. Constant warranty issues. Repaired my hids in my 5 series 2 times at $1200/time. Harmon Kardon sucks balls compared to the competition. Idrive is fucking annoying even after using it for a year. Auto wipers are ALWAYS either too fast or too slow. If you're anal about your car and want to keep it looking new then don't buy a bmw. Drove it to Edmonton during the summer with no 3m on and got piled of rock chips, more then any car I have ever seen. Only bmw I will ever buy again will be an m5 which will strictly be a summer, beautiful day driver, hopefully giving it such limited use that it actually stays in good shape.

Audi: Best build quality by far. Paint is hard as fuck with no 3m and hardly chips, stereo system is best out of the entire lineup. Not the Most reliable but not the worst either, if it has warranty then who gives a fuck anyways, in 93k km mine has been in the shop 6 times on warranty. Interior is kind of boring but holds up amazingly and nothing has stopped working. Amazing in winter.

In the end my choice would either be Audi Or Infiniti and I highly suggest you stay away from BMW unless you plan or trading it in within 2 years.

[dirtsniffer]

That's funny, I've driven thousands of different bmws and haven't seen much destroyed leatherette and usually the leather (that's not 10+ years old) to be in great shape. Also haven't seen any interior trim that chips. Was yours painted?

Also I drive has always been ahead on the competition. It is constantly imitated year after year. I can't see you going from similar year BMW to anything else and having the infotainment be better.

[Xtrema]

IS250 - the last one was gutless. I assume not much is changed in this one or improved very little. I warmed up to the style but still its too out there for me.

320i - why bother, go buy a ILX.

CLA - can't comment. Looks OK.

ATS - fun car cheaply built and msrp too high for what you get.

Q50 - everything I have read is basically G37 with a new body. There isn't much wrong with the old G37.

A4 - its a bit dated and played out right now. And you won't get much equipment @ $40k. But a stage 1 tune and you get a cheap and fast awd sedan that's built right.

[heavyD]

Hard to beat the A4 for Calgary's weather. High quality materials, AWD, decent fuel mileage, and pretty attractive car overall.

[Canucks3322]

Only one I've owned was the IS250 awd...felt the same as driving my moms Corolla.....and was very underwhelmed with its luxury interior, in fact it was only 4 years old and looked like crap.

[eglove]

Went through most of those when I was looking for a car in January. Ended up with my Focus ST. Love it

[The_Rural_Juror]

A4 at that price range. Well built, low key, decent re-sale value. Won't get laughed at for driving an entry level BMW.

[852VR6]

Acura ILX?

[gamman]

Is250 no fold down rear seat due to structural integrity. How many owners actually push their cars? 2, 4? I doubt it's that high.

How much more $ was a 350 anyway?

All the other models are too new for me to comment on.

American cars reliability has come a long way. Some drive ok too.

New cars are the worst investment out there. If you can, try for a two year old car. But that's not baller.

[Twenty]

Lincoln MXZ? The new ones are stunning.

[sneek]

Originally posted by 852VR6
Acura ILX?

I test drove this car and I loved it, but it is out classed with this peer group. It felt a bit like a grown up ITR. It is a blast to drive and it looks somewhat professional.

It really depends on what you are looking for. I am betting the Lexus will last the longest but will be the least exciting. The Audi is a super boring but very practical and on the lower end with the BMW on reliability. I probably wouldn't want to own one long term, but Audi's of late have been much better.

The BMW will be fun to drive without enough power. Not the biggest fan of the F30's driving dynamics.

ATS is probably my favourite to drive but least likely to own. The suspension and steering is better than than the F30, but the quality still isn't there. Backup cameras on the Honda Civis look better than that low res crap in the ATS. The touch screen is a total joke. It uses an on screen QWERTY keyboard for text entry and it legitimately couldn't find GSL...The seats and build materials didn't feel great. The buttons feel like recycled pop bottles. There are a ton of GM building materials in the car that just made me feel like I was in a rental car.

I haven't driven the Q50 so I can't really comment on it, but it looks promising. I find the first gen G's had low build quality but everything after got better. Looks like quite a good package for the money.

[turbotrip]

Lexus IS250 is not the best in any specific category but is the best overall.

[Blue]

C250! the interior in it > all of the above imo.

[clem24]

Originally posted by Blue
C250! the interior in it > all of the above imo.

Hahaha WTF? The C Class interior, including the C63, is straight out of a Subaru.

[Tomaz]

Awesome responses! I'll be driving all of these over the coming months. We shall see who passes the bar! God I love car shopping.

Some of you don't classify the CLA in the same group. Why is that? It is about the same starting price (between $35k and $37k), about the same power, and looks to be about the same size. What am I missing?

Another point I should make is that I commute from Strathmore and put on about 50k - 60k kms every year, so longevity/reliability is a really big concern for me.

What about other car suggestions I should look at? Maybe I'll end up writing reviews for all of these. lol

[Lex350]

I have an IS350.....I'm short do the room doesn't bother me. I love the cat. That said I've had both an is250 and is250awd out while getting the oil changed in my car. I hated them both. It may look the same but drives completely different. It drove like your average rental car. The service from Lexus has been exceptional.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I voted for the A4. Mechanical reliability isn't really a concern with any of those cars if you're doing mostly highway, but they will hold up differently over time. The A4 is built better than anything on your list, great motor, and AWD. Add a chip and you get a good power bump as well. It is due for an overhaul in a year or two, but got refreshed for 2013.

You probably won't need more than 5 min with the ATS to see how poorly it's put together. I wouldn't even be looking at that one, especially if you plan on keeping this car for a long time.

Q50 will probably be the best initial bang for the buck.

The Lexus is the "safest" choice, and very boring.

Buy at least a 328 if you go for a BMW.

The C class rather than the CLA is what would fit into your list....I believe it's getting redone next year as well.

[msommers]

Curious why you're after a base luxury brand vs. a loaded regular brand.

Given the choices, I'd go with an A4 Quattro (or A3 Quattro S-line).

[Darkane]

Infinity Q.

The VQ engine is just SO DAMN reliable.

For all your build quality and future consideration concerns its Nissan man!

My brothers old g35 (06 sport) was just awesome. Started In -32 ft Mac winter not plugged in all day. Barely complained about it.

[dirtsniffer]

Originally posted by Darkane
Infinity Q.

The VQ engine is just SO DAMN reliable.

For all your build quality and future consideration concerns its Nissan man!

My brothers old g35 (06 sport) was just awesome. Started In -32 ft Mac winter not plugged in all day. Barely complained about it.

NVH is horrible...

[Lex350]

Originally posted by Darkane
Infinity Q.

For all your build quality and future consideration concerns its Nissan man!





Thanks for the chuckle. I need that today. :D

[Neil4Speed]

Originally posted by Darkane
Infinity Q.

The VQ engine is just SO DAMN reliable.

For all your build quality and future consideration concerns its Nissan man!

My brothers old g35 (06 sport) was just awesome. Started In -32 ft Mac winter not plugged in all day. Barely complained about it.

Most cars should start at -32 without a plug in... even my old Legend did no problem.

[Darkane]

1) NVH was addressed in the Q.

2) infinity build quality is good. Same factories as some nissans.

3) old cars with loose motors, 9:1 CR always start in the winter. NEWER vehicles have issues turning when it's -30 and below.

Turning over is a function of CCA. firing is a different story.

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by ddduke

Merc: great quality, interior stays intact, semi reliable, repair costs were highest out of the whole lineup.

Lexus: No room, felt like I was in a Corolla, doesn't feel like a luxury car at all, feels like an econobox with leather. Service with Lexus is great.

Cadillac: I couldn't get passed how poorly they're made, same interior quality as our company trucks, buttons wear out, check engine lights are constantly on, leather is fucked after a year, etc. I'll never buy one again (besides a classic) or escalade ext for towing.

Infiniti: IMO hands down the best bang for your buck, Most luxury features in class by far. Was super reliable for me, Hyatt service is shit, but that can affect you with more then the infiniti brand. Interior looked like new after 4 years. None of the buttons stopped working. But remember I had an m45, which is a fair bit different then a g37.

BMW: Absolute shit, interior pleather chips, flakes, rips like nothing. Heated seats stopped working on both my 5 and 3 series. Constant warranty issues. Repaired my hids in my 5 series 2 times at $1200/time. Harmon Kardon sucks balls compared to the competition. Idrive is fucking annoying even after using it for a year. Auto wipers are ALWAYS either too fast or too slow. If you're anal about your car and want to keep it looking new then don't buy a bmw. Drove it to Edmonton during the summer with no 3m on and got piled of rock chips, more then any car I have ever seen. Only bmw I will ever buy again will be an m5 which will strictly be a summer, beautiful day driver, hopefully giving it such limited use that it actually stays in good shape.

Audi: Best build quality by far. Paint is hard as fuck with no 3m and hardly chips, stereo system is best out of the entire lineup. Not the Most reliable but not the worst either, if it has warranty then who gives a fuck anyways, in 93k km mine has been in the shop 6 times on warranty. Interior is kind of boring but holds up amazingly and nothing has stopped working. Amazing in winter.

In the end my choice would either be Audi Or Infiniti and I highly suggest you stay away from BMW unless you plan or trading it in within 2 years.

Agree completely with this review. Same experience as me - having owned most of those brands.

As far as 'entry' level luxury goes though. I would skip it...and go and buy an accord or similar. Luxury (especially entry level luxury) cars are dead IMO since you can get most of those features in non-luxury brands now, and you won't have to worry about the higher cost of maintenance - (remember general wear items, oil changes, brakes etc. will also cost more - not just repairs).

[Mibz]

Originally posted by CLiVE
As far as 'entry' level luxury goes though. I would skip it...and go and buy an accord or similar. Luxury (especially entry level luxury) cars are dead IMO since you can get most of those features in non-luxury brands now, and you won't have to worry about the higher cost of maintenance - (remember general wear items, oil changes, brakes etc. will also cost more - not just repairs). Yup. My buddy just went through this and ended up with a fully loaded Accord. I don't know all of the cars he drove, but I know the IS250 and 320i were in there, and he said the differences were so negligible, in some cases favouring the Accord, that there was no value in spending more on the luxury brand.

It's been over a year since I've driven anything in that segment so it's just hearsay right now, but he's not completely retarded so I believe him :P

[dirtsniffer]

My parents Accord is awesome.

[Mitsu3000gt]

I was shopping for a G35 at one point, but both my S4's were more reliable (literally zero problems) than anyone I know with a G35/G37. I wouldn't hesitate to buy either car if the opportunity presented itself.

I like Nissan/Infinity but I don't see them as the poster child of reliability or build quality.

The latest Murano's seem to be extremely well built, much better than any other Nissan, and easily on par with Infinity.

If you're looking at the CLA make sure you look at the new A3 sedan...however they aren't coming until 2014. The Golf R should be around $40K as well.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by Mitsu3000gt
The Golf R should be around $40K as well. I dunno. A fully loaded GTI is $45K OTD right now. I'd expect a fully loaded GTI with AWD and 300hp to be a little more.

EDIT: http://i.imgur.com/pM8Mlp3.png

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Mibz
I dunno. A fully loaded GTI is $45K OTD right now.

Oh seriously? Well nevermind then...for some reason I thought a loaded GTI was more like $35K.

That's too much for a GTI IMO!

[Mibz]

Well after discounts our 2012 came down to like $38,000 or something, I was just quoting internet price, but I can't imagine an R would have the same discounts.

I dunno. All speculation right now. If we get the S3 as well then there's a chance the GTI and R will drop in price.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Mibz
Well after discounts our 2012 came down to like $38,000 or something, I was just quoting internet price, but I can't imagine an R would have the same discounts.

I dunno. All speculation right now. If we get the S3 as well then there's a chance the GTI and R will drop in price.

Yeah I can't see the S3 going much above $50K, which means nobody will buy the Golf R if it's only a few grand different. A base S4 starts at $53,000 as well which is well equipped as-is.

[Tomaz]

The only reason I was looking into luxury brands was just based on the ideal of better build quality.

All the regular branded vehicles seem to focus on useless (to me) features like park assist, adaptive cruise, GPS, cross-traffic alerts, automated do-dads, electronic thing-a-ma-bobs, the list goes on. Luxury brands on the lower end I find market things like laser-seamed chassis welds, strengthened suspension components, detailed inspections of panel gaps, and over-engineered materials. The luxury brands just offer the basic features I want, and market the design and quality instead of the gimmicky stuff I don't want.

So, if anyone can prove to me a Ford, Mazda, Nissan has the same amount of rigidity, quality of materials, and long-term/high mileage reliability, I'd be willing to waver a bit. :)

Speaking of common-branded cars that caught my eye, there are a couple mentioned here and a few others that seem interesting. Feel free to add to my list of cars I gotta drive. lol Just keep in mind what I mentioned above. Quality of build > gizmos.

-Ford Fusion SE 2.0 AWD
-VW Passat VR6
-Honda Accord V6 Touring

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Tomaz
The only reason I was looking into luxury brands was just based on the ideal of better build quality.

.....detailed inspections of panel gaps, and over-engineered materials

........ quality of materials, and long-term/high mileage reliability, I'd be willing to waver a bit. :)



You can save time by not looking at the Cadillac or Fusion, if your criteria is heavily weighted toward all out build quality, interior panel gaps, etc. I am anal about that stuff and the ATS is especially bad in that department. Nothing will touch the Audi in this respect, so you can use that as the baseline. That criteria is very high on my list as well when I am shopping that segment as well.

I was unimpressed by the latest Accord, it seems they have taken the interior quality down a notch.

VR6 Passat Highline starts at $36K and goes up from there. You can do better for your money IMO. I'd rather be in a mid-range A4, 3 Series, or C-Class. Q50 will offer huge bang for the buck as well if the pricing is similar to the G.

[dirtsniffer]

a super base A4 is 37k

[Manhattan]

Always been torn between the driving experience versus the bland interior of the 3 series. It has the worst interior out of the bunch by a mile but arguably the most fun to drive. I have yet to test out the A4 but they're so common around town it's become the new civic which is a turn off for me but that might not matter to a lot of people.

Like others have said, new car isn't the greatest investment. I'm interested in a 2012 3 series, ILX, or new CLA. If you don't go the the luxury route you can't go wrong with an Accord. Don't overlook the Korean cars if you can look past the Korean badge. Sonata 2.0T can be had fully loaded for $40K. Audi's used to be pure garbage in the 90s and look at them now. Korean manufactures are following the same path.

Also, like someone else mentioned if you're going to spend $40K get a used C63! Little to no depreciation makes up for the gas guzzling!

[lilmira]

A loaded GTI here should be about 41k, the 44k price is for ontario, it's default on the website. I think the Golf R was about 45k.

[Strider]

Originally posted by Tomaz
So, if anyone can prove to me a Ford, Mazda, Nissan has the same amount of rigidity, quality of materials, and long-term/high mileage reliability, I'd be willing to waver a bit. :)

Strictly speaking in terms of long-term and reliability, you'd be better served with something other than a BMW, Audi, or Infiniti.

https://pictures.dealer.com/j/jdpower/1048/d113c91c0a0d02b701d3ac6eb051e9f9.jpg

[HiSpec]

Have you consider the Hyundai Genesis sedan?

[flipstah]

I'd go for the CC than the Passat.

[HiSpec]

Originally posted by flipstah
I'd go for the CC than the Passat.

:werd:

[Asian_defender]

Originally posted by Strider


Strictly speaking in terms of long-term and reliability, you'd be better served with something other than a BMW, Audi, or Infiniti.

https://pictures.dealer.com/j/jdpower/1048/d113c91c0a0d02b701d3ac6eb051e9f9.jpg

Like many have said. If your looking for reliability and build quality, Lexus all the way

[Sugarphreak]

...

[relyt92]

Originally posted by HiSpec
Have you consider the Hyundai Genesis sedan? I may be a bit biased, but definitely something to consider.

[ddduke]

How the fuck is Porsche #2 on that list? Since when have they been considered extremely reliable?

[Graham_A_M]

^ Yeah no kidding, when I saw that list, I was thinking, THAT is horseshit. :nut:

Although I fully agree with all the brands near the bottom.

[asp integra]

Originally posted by heavyD
Hard to beat the A4 for Calgary's weather. High quality materials, AWD, decent fuel mileage, and pretty attractive car overall.

This over and over again, If i was looking for a new ride with your parameters I wouldn't look any further than an A4

[dirtsniffer]

I believe that only deals with the number of instances for new cars. issues within the first year, and who cares, you have warranty for that period.

I'll throw a base s60 into the mix.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Mibz
I dunno. A fully loaded GTI is $45K OTD right now. I'd expect a fully loaded GTI with AWD and 300hp to be a little more.

EDIT: http://i.imgur.com/pM8Mlp3.png

Luckily we don't live in Ontario, that's a 13% tax being calculated up there. A loaded GTI is $41K, Golf R was around $44K otd, which also comes loaded minus the DSG.

Problem is people compare base prices with no taxes and fees to stuff like the numbers above. A loaded IS 250 AWD is over $53K OTD, there is no such thing as a $37k A4. A base A4 quattro auto is $45K OTD, loaded it's closer to $55k.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by ddduke
How the fuck is Porsche #2 on that list? Since when have they been considered extremely reliable?

Watch them drop as the number daily driver increases with the new Macan.


Macan will be the next S4/Q5 in this town.

[ddduke]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Watch them drop as the number daily driver increases with the new Macan.


Macan will be the next S4/Q5 in this town.

Wouldn't they have dropped because of the Cayenne? It's probably one of the most unreliable vehicles made in the last decade.

[Graham_A_M]

Originally posted by Aleks


Luckily we don't live in Ontario, that's a 13% tax being calculated up there. A loaded GTI is $41K, Golf R was around $44K otd, which also comes loaded minus the DSG.

Problem is people compare base prices with no taxes and fees to stuff like the numbers above. A loaded IS 250 AWD is over $53K OTD, there is no such thing as a $37k A4. A base A4 quattro auto is $45K OTD, loaded it's closer to $55k.

I wish to god my buddy who has a '09 GTI was a member on this forum, he'd be more then happy to chime in as to how much of a train wreck those cars are for cost of maintenance & reliability.

Its unworldly

[schocker]

Originally posted by ddduke
Wouldn't they have dropped because of the Cayenne? It's probably one of the most unreliable vehicles made in the last decade.
Well that is 2013 so no. Perhaps the 911/Cayman/Boxster/Panamera have no problems which is evened out by the Cayenne :rofl:

[Cos]

.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


I wish to god my buddy who has a '09 GTI was a member on this forum, he'd be more then happy to chime in as to how much of a train wreck those cars are for cost of maintenance & reliability.

Its unworldly

I see daily threads at NASIOC and iwsti about unhappy owners and their WRX/STI problems. You think one buddy with a bat GTI means they are all train wrecks? All cars have problems and I'm not saying Audi/VW are the best but my brother has driven only Audi's over the past decade and he never has problems with any of them.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


Actually that is a chart which shows inversely how much money JD received under the table

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/03/the-truth-about-jd-powers-2010-vehicle-dependability-survey/


I have the "Best and Worst" cars of 2013 for Consumer reports, basically all of the cars mentioned by OP have better than average reliability. The Infiniti, ATS and CLA however were too new.

I always wondered why JD Power went from the 5-year to 3-year long term reliability as I feel that when you are looking long term it is more useful to know how the car fares after the warranty expires as you tend to see more separation from the more reliable to less reliable. Sounds like some manufacturers don't want you to know what happens after the warranty expires.

[A790]

Originally posted by Graham_A_M


I wish to god my buddy who has a '09 GTI was a member on this forum, he'd be more then happy to chime in as to how much of a train wreck those cars are for cost of maintenance & reliability.

Its unworldly
Our '08 GTI and '12 GTI have both been great to us.

[Mibz]

I'd love to see sources on the Porsche info going around here. From what I was told at Porsche Center, more than half the Porsches sold in Canada in the last year have been Cayenne's. Garage queens they are not.

As for reliability, you can't trust what anybody says about any car on the internet. You get the guy who floors his turbo car 30 seconds after starting it in winter and then complains that it's a shitbox when it starts leaking. Then there's the guy who thinks he shouldn't have to pay for regular maintenance so says the car is unreliable because he shelled out $300 for a spark plug change. Finally there are the backyard mechanics that do whatever cheap modification they can and then blame the car when it breaks.

I've had -one- unreliable car in my life, a Protege 5. I got rid of it but I sure as hell don't go around saying all Mazdas are mechanically terrible. I'm not that stupid.

EDIT:
http://press.porsche.com/news/images/83-chart.gif

[Cos]

.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by Cos
^^ didnt know that. I am just offering a guess as to why. Maybe they are that reliable? Haha

they just all blow up at day 1096 :poosie:

[flipstah]

Reliability is all about the person driving it. That's just my take on it.

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by Tomaz
Another point I should make is that I commute from Strathmore and put on about 50k - 60k kms every year, so longevity/reliability is a really big concern for me.


Given the mileage, have you considered a diesel?

As far as the 'better build quality' - much of that is marketing 30 years ago there was a larger gap in quality, not so much anymore.

IMO. Hyundai killed the luxury car, when they started including luxury features in their models for a fraction of the price. Then it started to be a requirement from other makes in order to stay competitive.

[flipstah]

TDIs are remarkable on mileage but unsure about maintenance in the newer models. MB makes Bluetec diesels but I've only seen them in SUVs.

I know earlier diesel engines were a pain and you can recognize a TDI, even from 2008, from its tractor-like rumble in the front.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by ercchry
they just all blow up at day 1096 :poosie: Unless it goes CPO, then it's day 1826.

[Mitsu3000gt]

JD power has so many flaws. A huge one is they do nothing to take into account the severity of the problem, nor the mileage. Certain brands have large percentages of their buyers from certain demographics. For example sake, lots of those Buicks probably only get driven to church every Sunday by the retired owner - obviously they aren't going to have many problems to report in 3 years when there is only 10k on the car.

Then you have the severity of the problem completely ignored. Maybe you took your S-class Mercedes back to the shop 5 times to get a light bulb fixed, but the guy in the Ford has a single catastrophic issue, which is only considered 1 problem. According to JD power, that Ford would be 5 times more reliable than the Mercedes, but which problem would you rather have dealt with?

Then you have all the problems with skipping model years, etc. Also, since it's only 3 years history, EVERY car is still under warranty. Unless you are at the dealership every day, who cares? 5-10 year reliability would be much more telling, or off warranty reliability. You would see some interesting shifts in that chart I think, which would reflect what most people already know. I also believe they rely on the owners and dealerships to report their findings, which can't be very accurate (though I'm not sure how else they would do it).

[dirtsniffer]

Diesel powered manual transmission passat....

[lilmira]

The dollar amount for repair may be a better measurement than the number of problems.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by flipstah
TDIs are remarkable on mileage but unsure about maintenance in the newer models. MB makes Bluetec diesels but I've only seen them in SUVs.

I know earlier diesel engines were a pain and you can recognize a TDI, even from 2008, from its tractor-like rumble in the front.

Golf Jetta TDI weren't made in 2007/2008 as VW took time to update the engine. The new ones are only slightly louder than the modern gas DI engines. (Except for the Cruze diesel, that thing is loud!).

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by Aleks


Golf Jetta TDI weren't made in 2007/2008 as VW took time to update the engine. The new ones are only slightly louder than the modern gas DI engines. (Except for the Cruze diesel, that thing is loud!).

I've owned a TDI Golf (2006) - great little car, but very basic.
My wife commuted to Canmore daily in it. It was very reliable, but in the end she decided she wanted something larger and AWD for highway commuting. Post 2004 the TDI engines weren't that loud.

[CLiVE]

Originally posted by flipstah
TDIs are remarkable on mileage but unsure about maintenance in the newer models. MB makes Bluetec diesels but I've only seen them in SUVs.

I know earlier diesel engines were a pain and you can recognize a TDI, even from 2008, from its tractor-like rumble in the front.

Believe MB makes the E Class with a Bluetec. Close to $60k though I think.

Or grab a used one...(only link I could find)
http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Mercedes-Benz/E-Class/CALGARY/Alberta/19_7308677_/?showcpo=ShowCPO

[flipstah]

Originally posted by Aleks


Golf Jetta TDI weren't made in 2007/2008 as VW took time to update the engine. The new ones are only slightly louder than the modern gas DI engines. (Except for the Cruze diesel, that thing is loud!).

My apologies. The MKV Jetta looks the same for such a long period of time, I naively assumed.

Its not as loud now but later on, it may. At least, that's what I found with the older Gen models.

Not trying to deter you from going diesel because they are good but just be prepared with what you have to deal with after.

[clem24]

Originally posted by flipstah
I know earlier diesel engines were a pain and you can recognize a TDI, even from 2008, from its tractor-like rumble in the front.

Or from all the black smoke spewing out the back.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Mibz

I've had -one- unreliable car in my life, a Protege 5. I got rid of it but I sure as hell don't go around saying all Mazdas are mechanically terrible. I'm not that stupid.

Well I guess we can agree at least that the Protege 5 was a terrible car as that it's also the worst car we have ever owned.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by heavyD
Well I guess we can agree at least that the Protege 5 was a terrible car as that it's also the worst car we have ever owned. Which is saying something, since I'm pretty sure we both owned Dodge Neons.

[Graham_A_M]

^ yeah, mazda is garbage. Ive owned 4 over a 7 year period, I'll never make that mistake ever again in my life... Being left on the side of the road with a broken down car about 30 or so times during those 7 years was far from fun.

[Sugarphreak]

...

[ddduke]

Originally posted by Mibz
I'd love to see sources on the Porsche info going around here. From what I was told at Porsche Center, more than half the Porsches sold in Canada in the last year have been Cayenne's. Garage queens they are not.

As for reliability, you can't trust what anybody says about any car on the internet. You get the guy who floors his turbo car 30 seconds after starting it in winter and then complains that it's a shitbox when it starts leaking. Then there's the guy who thinks he shouldn't have to pay for regular maintenance so says the car is unreliable because he shelled out $300 for a spark plug change. Finally there are the backyard mechanics that do whatever cheap modification they can and then blame the car when it breaks.

I've had -one- unreliable car in my life, a Protege 5. I got rid of it but I sure as hell don't go around saying all Mazdas are mechanically terrible. I'm not that stupid.

EDIT:
http://press.porsche.com/news/images/83-chart.gif


I'm basing my stereotype on hundreds of reviews that I have read about the Cayenne, you may have got a good one or you're overly anal about maintenance/preventative maintenance. I've wanted to buy one for the last 5 or 6 years but always hold off when I read the hundreds of yearly reviews from owners.

Go look on Edmunds, for every 1 good review there's 50 terrible ones. You're definitely right about many people not taking care of them buy a Cayenne is definitely not a 'reliable' vehicle.

[Mibz]

I took it in for service when the dash told me to, haha. If you're still interested, I'm selling mine with a year of Porsche warranty left on it. Full (and short) service history included. Guess I'm one of the lucky ones, cause yeah, there's a ton of bad reviews.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by Sugarphreak


That or the GLK250 Bluetec is about 50K all in

Sure not a sedan, but not really much of an SUV either. More like a wagon. Pretty nice inside regardless.

Also the Q5 TDI just hit dealerships in the last week or so, about the same price as the Mercedes only more power. 240HP and 428 lbs/ft of Torque.... 50K is a steal IMO, for either.

Yeah, been eyeing those Q5 TDI now that we don't get SQ5 with TDI.

Starting price for GLK250 vs Q5 TDI is $5K. GLK also more fuel efficient.

[Tomaz]

I did some initial visits to some dealerships last night just to see if I fit in the cars we have been chatting about, feel the control layout, check out passenger space, etc. I figured this would eliminate most of the vehicles on the list.

The Passat: Overall the car was OK at best, but what killed it for me was the fact the steering wheel and column were about 2" off-centre. It may not sound like a big deal, but come on, at least try to line up the driver with the controls! Two things that really surprised me with the car: Rear passenger space, and trunk space. The one that surprised me the most was the rear passenger space. Even with the driver's seat in my preferred position, I could sit in the back and have a few inches between my knees and the seat! To give you some reference, I am 6'3", 255lbs, and drive with the seat slid all the way back, fairly upright, and want to rest my wrists on the top of the wheel. The trunk could fit 3 golf bags, couple coolers, a chainsaw, shovel, and a dead body or two. Bloody Huge!

The Golf Wagon: The show stopped as soon as I sat in it and my forehead hit the sunroof wind deflector. How the hell do people fit in these cars????

Ford Fusion: "Not bad" was the first thought I had when I got in and found a good driving position. The seats formed around me well, didn't feel too spongy, or too firm. When looking through the cubbies and storage in the cabin, I find ample space for basically everything I have on me when driving. One thing I noticed about all these hiding spaces was that they were not overly accessible when behind the wheel (for those who don't know, most of the space is under and behind the "floating console", which either my legs cover access, or I can’t reach in from the front. Rear space would be adequate for most people, but I foresee my friends having issues getting in. Trunk is a great size, but I noticed fit/feel was lacking. Stuff would just start flying around and rattling back there.

BMW 320: Seating position was pretty good, quick feel of the interior was good, but not overly impressive. The gear selector threw me off at first, but I somewhat got used to it during my visit though I don't normally trust electronic gizmos like that. I didn't get too much time to fool around in the car as the salesman walked up to me with keys and away we went on a drive (this is the only car I have driven so far on the list). To not waste time, I turn onto deerfoot and start putting the car through its paces in the different driving modes. To be honest, I felt as if the driving modes didn't change much other than make more noise, and ruin the suspension. Eco mode turns the car into a neutered jalopy, Normal mode was best though the suspension was surprisingly soft and felt like it rolled around corners, sport mode just made more noise in both the engine and suspension without really doing anything noticeable with the performance. Overall, I was quite disappointed.

Infinity Q50: The amount of times the words "Nissan Q50" slipped out of my mouth was uncanny. Honestly, the entire interior reminds me of the Altima rental I had. Not saying it is a bad car, but I was really hoping for more than what was being shown. Earlier when I talked about companies loading up with features instead of focusing on build, this was a prime example. This car is trying to mimic the competition by providing the same if not more gadgets, changeable driving dynamics to mimic the ride, performance, and handling of competitors. It's like that one kid in high school that tries really hard to be everybody BUT himself. Another way to look at it, it is the Kia and Hyundai of the luxury class: trying to compete with the $50k and $60k car segment, but on a budget. And you can tell.

Lexus is250: I must say, I fell in love with it right away. I love the swoops, the F Sport grille, the slash LED DRLs, the angular rear taillights, everything. She is dramatic and beautiful. I was skeptical about how I would feel in the cockpit from what some of the guys have mentioned here on Beyond, but I can honestly say that I never felt more at home in a car. The seat seamed tight at first, but formed to my body in seconds. My favorable driving position was found with no compromise. In fact, I had to slide the seat forward a bit to fully depress the pedals. The steering wheel is dead centre to my chest, and I am not struggling to reach it either. 90% of the materials I could reach were perfectly fit, lots of soft materials to feel, and even the hard materials were formed with no protruding seams or rough edges. Bloody brilliant! Rear passenger space is less than desirable for a man my size, but not deal-breaking. There is ample space in the trunk for everything I'll ever need to haul. Oh, there are tie-down points in the trunk in case you have to drive like hell with golf clubs. The amazing part: they are made of machined metal and fold flush when you don't need them! What I am trying to say is that the designers and engineers of this car speak my language, and I appreciate that.

So, I have many more cars to sit in, and the few I'm interested in still need to be taken out for a drive. If people want to hear my personal thoughts and findings, I’ll just keep pumping this thread full of opinions from a big white guy. lol

[flipstah]

I'm surprised you didn't sit in the CC. WAY nicer than the Passat.

The ATS would be great for you if it wasn't for CUE.

[Tomaz]

Originally posted by flipstah
I'm surprised you didn't sit in the CC. WAY nicer than the Passat.

The ATS would be great for you if it wasn't for CUE.

They didn't have one in the showroom, and the salespeople were busy with paying customers. I'll be going back to check her out, and same with the ATS. I only have about 30 vehicles to check out. :poosie:

[schocker]

I am surprised you didn't like the Q50. At the last autoshow I sat in the M37 and the interior I thought was quite impressive especially coming from how crappy it was in my G35.

I would vote A4 though from the list as long as you like how it drives. I find the refreshed B8 to be quite sharp and the new one won't be out until MY 2015.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Originally posted by Tomaz


They didn't have one in the showroom, and the salespeople were busy with paying customers. I'll be going back to check her out, and same with the ATS. I only have about 30 vehicles to check out. :poosie:

If you care about fit and finish you aren't going to like the ATS. CUE is horrible as well, as flipstah mentioned. Honestly that was probably the most disappointing car I have looked at recently.

Interested to hear your opinion on the A4, as it seems to be the clear majority of the votes here. I think if you fit in it, you will like it the best.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Mibz
Which is saying something, since I'm pretty sure we both owned Dodge Neons.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Actually my SRT-4 only ever had one issue and it was the steering rack that was replaced under warranty. I didn't care for the rowing through a bucket of bolts feel of the 5-speed but otherwise the car ran good.

[flipstah]

I totally forgot to mention the Volvo S60!

They make pretty refined cars but stupid NAV systems with the control knob BEHIND the steering wheel. WTF!?

Not sure about 2013 if they changed that.

If you add AWD to the base model and not load it up with extra goodies, you can be $42k + tax and fees.

I'm sure you can work a deal out for one that's available on the lot.

http://images.conceptcarz.com/imgxra/Volvo/Volvo-S60-2013-Sedan-Image-07.jpg

[Mibz]

Originally posted by heavyD


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Actually my SRT-4 only ever had one issue and it was the steering rack that was replaced under warranty. I didn't care for the rowing through a bucket of bolts feel of the 5-speed but otherwise the car ran good. Yeah, mine didn't have any problems that I didn't cause myself. Like accidentally shorting my WGA to the battery and melting the spring.

Or, you know, putting it into a wall.