Buying brand new car 17-25k Opinions?

[funkedelic2]

never bought a brand new car and have a few questions if somebody can help me out. My girlfriend just recently sold her mazda 3 and we are looking to buy something brand new. The reason being is we would like to get 0% financing over 60+ month finance. Being a 2013 and not going for a 2014 isn't a big deal for us so looking to negotiate a discount on remaining models.

Anyone have suggestions on a new car at this price range? We are considering a new corolla or civic right now. Looking for a sedan with plenty of room, fold down seats, a few good options thrown in.

Sounds like a stupid question but how do you negotiate a new car. Obviously there is an MSRP sticker price but how much less should I expect to pay?

Any tips and tricks?

[colsankey]

I suck ass at negotiating, so can't help you there.

But you could look at the 2013 Mitsubishi lancer, it's got AWD available and should be under 25k. It's also 84 months at 0% if you want to go that route.

[Shlade]

Corolla or matrix?

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

2013 Cruze, GM offers huge incentives...

[Aleks]

Originally posted by funkedelic2
never bought a brand new car and have a few questions if somebody can help me out. My girlfriend just recently sold her mazda 3 and we are looking to buy something brand new. The reason being is we would like to get 0% financing over 60+ month finance. Being a 2013 and not going for a 2014 isn't a big deal for us so looking to negotiate a discount on remaining models.

Anyone have suggestions on a new car at this price range? We are considering a new corolla or civic right now. Looking for a sedan with plenty of room, fold down seats, a few good options thrown in.

Sounds like a stupid question but how do you negotiate a new car. Obviously there is an MSRP sticker price but how much less should I expect to pay?

Any tips and tricks?

What year was the Mazda3? 2013 Mazda 3s have 0% for 84 months right now and some other incentives due to 2014s coming in soon that is a new model all together.

2013 Civics lease really well, you can walk out with a 250/month all in payment with nothing down.

2013 Corolla, same story as 2013 Mazda3

As far as negotiating, cars in the 17-25k range typically have 1000-2000 at most in markup. Look for factory type incentives that are added on top of any discount you can get from the dealer. There are also loyalty incentives for brands that you already own or have owned in the last 6 months.

[jwslam]

http://forums.beyond.ca/st/374842/fs-2014-mitsubishi-mirage-5-speed/

Can't go wrong with a Beyond forum sponsor. :thumbsup:

[Tomaz]

Originally posted by Aleks


What year was the Mazda3? 2013 Mazda 3s have 0% for 84 months right now and some other incentives due to 2014s coming in soon that is a new model all together.

2013 Civics lease really well, you can walk out with a 250/month all in payment with nothing down.

2013 Corolla, same story as 2013 Mazda3

As far as negotiating, cars in the 17-25k range typically have 1000-2000 at most in markup. Look for factory type incentives that are added on top of any discount you can get from the dealer. There are also loyalty incentives for brands that you already own or have owned in the last 6 months.

My top picks would be Mazda 3 or Honda Civic as mentioned here. Corolla is a safe choice, but is very.... bland.

Might even want to check out the Korean options aswell seeing they are offering tremendous value these days.

If you buy a Dodge Dart, you will get the ban-stick. :rofl:

[Weapon_R]

I hear the KIA optra hybrid is on sale for 23k

[spikerS]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
I hear the KIA optra hybrid is on sale for 23k

If it is, that would be a no brainer.

that is sick!

*edit* got a bit ahead of myself there. is it the kia OPTIMA or the chevy optra?

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
I hear the KIA optra hybrid is on sale for 23k

Batteries not included?

[Weapon_R]

Saw it on RFD

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
Saw it on RFD

Saw the thread, no links to the advertisement, nor any proof of 6 grand off. It's also in BC, so probably a cash only, first time buyer, recent grad program, BC energy efficient rebate (residents only), and Kia's current $1g off promotion.



Originally posted by funkedelic2
Obviously there is an MSRP sticker price but how much less should I expect to pay?



Not much less on that segment of car. Not a lot of wiggle room when looking at $20g. Might be able to argue $500 off.

If she isn't a car person, just get a Civic. My wife loves our LX Coupe, lease is under $250/month (as previously mentioned), and it comes decently equiped. Power everything, blue-tooth, A/C etc.

[rx7boi]

Car negotiating is fairly simple if you do your research and go in with confidence.

1. Find the car cost/invoice pricing for the trim and model that you want online. Be aware that some sites show invoice pricing for US only but you can normally find a car forum with this information.

2. Estimate how much dealer makes from the deal. If car MSRP is $150, invoice is $100, and you get it for $120, it doesn't mean that the dealer made $20. Dealerships also get vendor funding for cars that they sell that add to overall profit amongst other things. Having said that, new cars generally have way lower margin, but they can make money back through interest if you're financing your car as well.

3. Calculate freight and other mandatory fees. Add it to your total.

4. Look at any incentives available for buying the car (but do not disclose that you know this to the salesman yet. Bring it up once you have a committed price.

5. When you have the final OTD amount for what you want to pay, take it in and negotiate using that number. Dealers want to make as much money as possible, you want to pay as little as possible. Dealers have a right to profit so be a reasonable adult and work it out.

I don't know what counts as a good new car sale for a dealership, but based on what I read online, you add 600-800 on top of the invoice pricing but I'm sure it is different for every car as well depending on trim rarity and popularity.

[Mitsu3000gt]

Honestly just get the Civic. I went through this exact same process 2 years ago. Yes, there are more fun cars, but not many that will give you the same peace of mind and resale value. I only drive about 3000km/yr now that I moved downtown, and I got a Civic because I wanted a car that would cost me essentially nothing to own, be 100% reliable, and not a giant POS. The Civic is exactly those things, and does it's job perfectly.

Do I miss having AWD and lots of torque? Of course, but I also love my $40, 600km fill ups, sub-$100 insurance costs, minimal loss on investment, and guaranteed reliability in the mean time. Costs are so low I don't even think of my vehicle when I think of my expenses. It costs me almost nothing.

[ercchry]

it really depends on what you want, in that range you are either at fully loaded compacts, or more base mid-sized sedans, or even CUVs...

you could get everything listed here or:

-ford:
-escape
-fiesta
-focus
-fusion
-f150 :rofl:

-kia:
-optima
-forte

-vw:
-jetta
-golf
-passat


soooo many cars :nut:

[funkedelic2]

Thanks guys for all the advice. We are looking for a compact sedan, however we do not want to get a Chevy or a dodge. Chevy because they lose absolutely all resale value and we both just don't like American cars. I would much rather drive a civic then a dart. Will be looking at a few dealers this weekend.

[roll_over]

Anyone know if the mirage will ever have an awd?

[dexlargo]

For how to negotiate, I agree with what rx7boi wrote.

For invoice pricing, you can go to carcostcanada.com and they will give you canadian invoice pricing for $40.

Unhaggle.com gives you Canadian invoice pricing for free, but they try to get you to pay for their negotiating service to help you close a good deal on the car you want.

I used unhaggle.com to get lots of invoice pricing information before I bought my last car. It seems to be alright.

I don't keep anything secret from the dealer - I show him the cost reports I obtained and everything and allow him to confirm whether or not they are correct - usually they agree that these are accurate invoice prices - if they don't agree I would let them explain where they say the discrepancies are, but if I think they're fucking with me, I'm gone. If I think they may have something legitimate I would say, okay, but you need to prove it, and if he does, then work with adjusted dealer cost.

Then the conversation/negotiation is just over how much profit is reasonable for the dealer? They need to make some money, so you should be fair too. In that price range of car, 800-1000 over invoice (after all rebates/promotions, etc.) is probably fair. The big surprise is that the MSRP is probably not much more than that - I'd be surprised if in that price range the MSRP was more than a couple thousand over invoice.

Anyway, that's it. -oh and you don't buy anything extra - no extended warranty, no 3M coating, no floor mats - all are cheaper elsewhere if you really want them.

[jcox20]

I used unhaggle for my 2013 WRX and basically just offered 4% above the dealer invoice price and the accepted it. Probably the easiest way to know you are actually getting a good deal.

[zieg]

You might be able to get into a decent 2013 Impreza if you wanna do the AWD thing..

[ExtraSlow]

carcostcanada is pretty good. It's a useful info point anyway

Four tips for negotiating on a new car (or any car).
- Never put a deposit down on a vehicle that is sitting on the lot. ever.
- Get everything in writing, including all fees, PDI, Freight, Inspection and taxes
- Negotiate on that total, not a monthly payment, not some made-up subtotal.
- Be ready to walk away. (hell do walk away once, it does wonders for your self confidence).

If you handle yourself like someone who understands your finances, and has senf control, you'll find most salespeople are actually pretty easy to deal with.

If you act like you can't be bothered to put a little effort into a $30k purchase, expect to be taken advantage of.

[funkedelic2]

Originally posted by ZiG-87
You might be able to get into a decent 2013 Impreza if you wanna do the AWD thing..

I want a wrx lol. We are going to go look at Subaru. Do they have any 0-1% financing specials?

[dexlargo]

^lol is right. Good luck getting a brand new WRX in your stated price range.

[funkedelic2]

Originally posted by dexlargo
^lol is right. Good luck getting a brand new WRX in your stated price range.

Obviously it would be around 35 or more but it's just a suggestion right now. Most likely we will end up with a civic/3 or corolla. If we find something we both really like with tons of value, the price range is flexible.

[zieg]

Well, look at the impreza anyway. You might be surprised.

[ercchry]

if you are up in that range for "the right car" ...i'd at least test drive an MB CLA250

[ExtraSlow]

In that price range, the impreza would be pretty high on my list. Haven't driven a recent mazda3, but I loved the 2007 that I owned. Hated all the dealerships though.

[CanmoreOrLess]

I'd look for a lightly used car with minimal kms, 2011-2013. Let the first owner take the depreciation hit and now my 25K budget is buying me what was originally a 35K plus vehicle. Now you have a serious level up in the type vehicle you can afford over buying a brand new depreciating Civic for example. Personally I'd be headed to a diesel wagon or sedan with a sunroof and winter tires. The smartest I know are also wealthy, they seldom buy a depreciating asset brand new unless there are tax write offs or a really great deal. I know of one guy who if he has to buy new (keeps it for a decade), he buys during the final week of the year, between Christmas and January 15th as no one is buying a big ticket vehicle at this time.

[FixedGear]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
I'd look for a lightly used car with minimal kms, 2011-2013. Let the first owner take the depreciation hit and now my 25K budget is buying me what was originally a 35K plus vehicle. Now you have a serious level up in the type vehicle you can afford over buying a brand new depreciating Civic for example.

:thumbsup:

[Twin_Cam_Turbo]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
I'd look for a lightly used car with minimal kms, 2011-2013. Let the first owner take the depreciation hit and now my 25K budget is buying me what was originally a 35K plus vehicle. Now you have a serious level up in the type vehicle you can afford over buying a brand new depreciating Civic for example. Personally I'd be headed to a diesel wagon or sedan with a sunroof and winter tires. The smartest I know are also wealthy, they seldom buy a depreciating asset brand new unless there are tax write offs or a really great deal. I know of one guy who if he has to buy new (keeps it for a decade), he buys during the final week of the year, between Christmas and January 15th as no one is buying a big ticket vehicle at this time.

Agree with this.

My car had 14700KM on it when I got it and I paid 62% of what a new one would have cost.

[Mitsu3000gt]

If I had $35K to spend, there are so many better cars than a WRX (IMO). And if you buy 1-2 years old, $35K can get you an EXTREMELY nice car.

[carson blocks]

Originally posted by funkedelic2
The reason being is we would like to get 0% financing over 60+ month finance.

Keep in mind that most of the time 0% financing is not actually free. There is usually a different cash price or a cash discount that would work out to about the same value as paying 3-5% interest over 5 years. Look at your total cost over 5 years, not just the rate.

[CapnCrunch]

Originally posted by CanmoreOrLess
I'd look for a lightly used car with minimal kms, 2011-2013. Let the first owner take the depreciation hit and now my 25K budget is buying me what was originally a 35K plus vehicle. Now you have a serious level up in the type vehicle you can afford over buying a brand new depreciating Civic for example.

+1. You'll be able to get her in a much nicer car than a Civic for the same money.

[ercchry]

Originally posted by CapnCrunch


+1. You'll be able to get her in a much nicer car than a Civic for the same money.

i take:

"The reason being is we would like to get 0% financing over 60+ month finance. "

as "we want cheap monthly payments"

if you go used, interest a side, your terms will probably be 4-5 years to pay it all back. so you are now probably over $800/month instead of some of this shit the dealers do that gets you the same dollar figure loan for ~$300/month (84 month, with balloon payment at end, haha)

[Xtrema]

Lowest monthly payment right now is 2013 Corolla if they have any left. 0% lease for 5 year work out to be around $200-$250 a month depends on options.

But that car is bland and quite shitty to drive. And I'm sure most are cleared off lots already as 2014s are landing.

[dexlargo]

Originally posted by carson blocks


Keep in mind that most of the time 0% financing is not actually free. There is usually a different cash price or a cash discount that would work out to about the same value as paying 3-5% interest over 5 years. Look at your total cost over 5 years, not just the rate. Word. I looked at all the numbers for the car I just bought and the offer of 0% financing had to be compared with the incentive for paying cash, which made the car $2250 cheaper than if financing was used.

You would have to run the math, but in my situation the cost to finance the amount I needed from my bank at 3.5% would be about $750, so it was a much better idea to do that than get 0% financing from the dealer.

[funkedelic2]

Thanks everybody for the advice. There was a lot of good points to keep in mind. After spending a week looking at a few cars in the "Compact Sedan" class, we have narrowed it down to 2 cars. Both Mazdas actually. We looked at the new corolla but were disappointed with how uninteresting the car was aside from its new looks. It was also disappointing to find that Toyota is still using the same 1.8 L motor and still using drum brakes. It seemed like the same car it has always been just with a new body.

We looked at the Civic, focus, and a few others. All of them could be summed up as "okay". We looked at the new 2014 Mazdas and were pleasantly surprised. We loved all the tech and new look of the new 3 and the beautifully redesigned bigger mazda 6.

So we have narrowed it down to a new 2014 Mazda 3 GT or a new Mazda 6 GS. We will be a little over the budget but really feel like it's a lot of car for the price. The 3GT seems to be the better bang for your buck but the 6 is such a gorgeous car and with some coilovers and 19s or 20s, the car looks like a Maserati.

[gpomp]

Good choice. IMO, the new Mazda's are so far ahead of the competition right now.

[Canucks3322]

WHAT?!?! the new Mazda 3's are already in the dealerships to test drive?! Had my on these for awhile now...might upgrade from my '04...hate the previous gen, so stupid looking with the smiley faces....

[funkedelic2]

Originally posted by Canucks3322
WHAT?!?! the new Mazda 3's are already in the dealerships to test drive?! Had my on these for awhile now...might upgrade from my '04...hate the previous gen, so stupid looking with the smiley faces....

I felt the same way about the last gen. Couldn't stand them. I highly recommend you go see and test drive a new 3! Mostly just hatches available everywhere right now. I am waiting for a GT sedan in meteor grey :love:

[Canucks3322]

^ ya I love my 04, owned a brand new one in 07 but sold it for a Murano...then earlier this year I needed a cheap daily and picked up an 04 with 225,000 km on it for $4600...carbon grey GT sedan, got my eye on the dark gray 14 GT sedan too....hope theyll give me something decent for a trade in :D :D

[Twenty]

I highly recommend the Focus.

[skylinegtr20]

Go with the Mazda or Subaru... Civic & Corolla are trash in recent years.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by gpomp
Good choice. IMO, the new Mazda's are so far ahead of the competition right now.

Yep Mazda builds a great handling little FWD car. It's a shame they don't age well but as long as you don't plan on owning it past 4-5 years that's not an issue but after that it's a matter of time until the inevitable rust and problems ensue. Even low mileage never winter driven RX8's will suffer from wheel well rust.

[btimbit]

Drove that market twice this year when both my sister and girlfriend were looking.

Ford Focus was my favorite small car, you could get a great one almost fully loaded for that price.

Maybe a little over budget for a bit of equipment, but the Ford Fusion was fantastic as well. And such a beautiful car

[Hallowed_point]

Originally posted by heavyD
Yep Mazda builds a great handling little FWD car. It's a shame they don't age well but as long as you don't plan on owning it past 4-5 years that's not an issue but after that it's a matter of time until the inevitable rust and problems ensue. Even low mileage never winter driven RX8's will suffer from wheel well rust.

I agree, they are great for what they are. But you're totally right on the wheel well rust issue.

[FixedGear]

pretty sure the mazda rust issues were solved in '05 or '06

[heavyD]

Originally posted by FixedGear
pretty sure the mazda rust issues were solved in '05 or '06

Nope. Still the quickest rusting cars you can buy by a longshot.

[Lex350]

Originally posted by heavyD


Yep Mazda builds a great handling little FWD car. It's a shame they don't age well but as long as you don't plan on owning it past 4-5 years that's not an issue but after that it's a matter of time until the inevitable rust and problems ensue. Even low mileage never winter driven RX8's will suffer from wheel well rust.


Yes to all of this....the other part is dealing with the Mazda service departments in town. Horrible! Especially Kramer!!!!!!!

[btimbit]

Originally posted by rotten42



Yes to all of this....the other part is dealing with the Mazda service departments in town. Horrible! Especially Kramer!!!!!!!

Oh my God, there is/was a younger blonde service advisor at Kramer. She's a CUNT with a capital K

[GreyFox]

Rather than creating another new thread, going to Bump this as I'm in a related dilemma.

Wife and I are looking for a car in about the same price range, although for the options we're after, we're going to end up right around 25k. That's pretty much the top end of our budget.

We've been browsing around for months now and seem to have narrowed down our options to a 2014 Mazda 3 (GS w/ convenience pkg + sunroof) or we recently looked at the Impreza (Sport Package) and found it was the only one that came close to the Mazda, although for somewhat different reasons.

The finance incentives for these 2 choices are probably the worst out of all cars we looked at - to be honest if Mazda had 0% we would've already bought one. Mazda had this offer but only on 2013's and the difference between the 13' and 14' are night and day. Mazda's current promo ("get it in gear") ends today so we're really hoping they offer some sort of incentive on the 14's that we could jump on. Same with Subaru.

Alternatively, we're looking at slightly used models of these (14' Mazda 3 or 2012+Impreza) as that might be our best financial decision, to let somebody else take the initial depreciation hit.

Major points for each -
Mazda 3
-GREAT gas mileage (important for me as I have a 35km commute, 1 way)
-Looks way better than the impreza
-Has better features than the impreza (touch screen with rear view cam, commander switch thing)

Subaru Impreza
-AWD
-Paddle shifters (can't have manual so next best thing)
-Good reliability and resale value?


I don't know much about Subaru's but 3/3 of my friends that I asked picked the Impreza over the 3, stating reliability and resale as the main factors. Consumer reports has also rated the Impreza as highly reliable.

Can anybody provide any insight into these specific models, past experiences or recommendations? For example, if the 2015 Impreza was coming out in April, might make sense to wait as they may start to clear out the 14's?

[Lex350]

^^^

Cons:

Mazda
Getting bent over by the Mazda service departments in town. Good luck with that.

[CanmoreOrLess]

I can't imagine buying another daily driver vehicle in Canada that is not AWD. Subaru is a solid pick, just buy in Red Deer or Lethbridge seems to be the world view on Beyond.

[faiz999]

yeah, what canmore said. awd in canada, esp calgary just helps so much.

that being said, FWD + winters will be just as good, save you on gas and with the mazda you receive more features for the price.

i didnt enjoy the service i received when i went the subie dealership in calgary but some have had good experiences, so i don't think its necessarily the norm.

never dealt with mazda so i dont have much to say about that but good luck in your search.

[realazy]

The new Corolla S with Tech package has a lot of options for the money. My friend just got into one with $0 down for $297/month with a 48 month lease.

[Aleks]

Mazda's gas mileage in real world won't be any different than that of Focus, Civic, Corolla, or any small FWD car. Don't be fooled by marketing. It will however be somewhat better than that of Impreza due to obvious reasons.

I'd go for Impreza due to resale and AWD alone unless you really put high importance on how a car handles and how much fun it is to drive.

[faiz999]

Originally posted by Aleks
Mazda's gas mileage in real world won't be any different than that of Focus, Civic, Corolla, or any small FWD car. Don't be fooled by marketing. It will however be somewhat better than that of Impreza due to obvious reasons.

I'd go for Impreza due to resale and AWD alone unless you really put high importance on how a car handles and how much fun it is to drive.

good point on the resale. i dont get it but subies hold their value better than pretty much every car on the market.

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by faiz999


good point on the resale. i dont get it but subies hold their value better than pretty much every car on the market.

Name a compact car that is under $25K with AWD.

Then you know why Subies hold the value better.

[gpomp]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Name a compact car that is under $25K with AWD.

Then you know why Subies hold the value better. Mitsubishi Lancer SE AWC :rofl:

[Graham_A_M]

I think you should take a good look at a Focus, rather then just pick between a Mazda 3 (which I would absolutely NEVER recommend) or a Subaru. There are a handful of great cars in that market segment, rather then just the two you seem to have your sights on.

Ive never looked at Focus' myself, but if you can land an ST for that kind of money, I'd go that route in a heart beat.

My older brothers GF has a Mazda 3, and being an 08 with 105k, its already starting to rust. its like. :rolleyes: Wow really?

[16hypen3sp]

If you want a Mitsubishi... buy in Red Deer at that dealership.
Ask for the salesman by the name of Logan. He'll set you up.

[gx12]

.

[GreyFox]

Originally posted by Aleks
Mazda's gas mileage in real world won't be any different than that of Focus, Civic, Corolla, or any small FWD car. Don't be fooled by marketing. It will however be somewhat better than that of Impreza due to obvious reasons.

I'd go for Impreza due to resale and AWD alone unless you really put high importance on how a car handles and how much fun it is to drive.

You're right - the difference between the 3 and those other cars wouldn't really be noticeable. But between the 3 and the impreza is. According to fuelly, average for the 2014 Mazda 3 is 7.5L/100km while the Impreza is 8.6L/100km....so I guess not as huge of a difference as what I originally thought. Good news is I'm going from 12.4L/100km so really anything will be a nice difference in fuel economy.

And I do put handling/fun factor fairly high on my list. Which is why the Mazda 3 stood out from a lot of other options that have been mentioned. However when I test drove the Impreza, I ranked it as 2nd overall for fun to drive.



Originally posted by Graham_A_M
I think you should take a good look at a Focus, rather then just pick between a Mazda 3 (which I would absolutely NEVER recommend) or a Subaru. There are a handful of great cars in that market segment, rather then just the two you seem to have your sights on.

Ive never looked at Focus' myself, but if you can land an ST for that kind of money, I'd go that route in a heart beat.

My older brothers GF has a Mazda 3, and being an 08 with 105k, its already starting to rust. its like. Wow really?

We've looked at lot's of different cars in the segment except the Lancer, Dart, Sentra and Jetta. Elantra, Cruze, Focus, Forte, Civic, Corolla, 3 and now Impreza are all the ones we considered but most were eliminated simply because they weren't as good as the 3.

We looked at a focus and thought they were pretty nice. Didn't get so far as driving one as a bit of research found that a lot of people ranked it pretty low as far as reliability of previous models and this models expected reliability. You can't get an ST for under 30k so it's out of budget, not to mention it doesn't fit some of our other criteria (auto transmission, wife to blame for that :banghead:)

I know the older Mazda's had rust issues, and I know somebody mentioned in a previous post that they still rust the worst of out them all, but how bad is it really? Consumer reports makes little or no mention of it so is it marginally worse than all the other brands or are we talking like 10x as worse?

And can anybody chime in with experiences in reliability/repair costs? Is the Impreza really that much MORE reliable? Or let's say the same thing goes wrong in each car, is one going to be significantly easier/cheaper to fix?

[Graham_A_M]

^ Hmmm, you should also take a look at the Velostar, Im SERIOUSLY not into Korean cars, but those are pretty sharp looking units.
Interesting, you should PM Rat Fink on here about their reliability, as he's a tech at a Ford dealership, so he'd help shed some light onto what issues they may have. I find that comment interesting about them being unreliable, as I know a couple people with them, and they've had no issues in anyway.... strange.

Do mazda's rust prematurely? Fuck yeah..... honestly? take a look around, get a feel for what approximate year a certain body style is, and look for rust around the wheel wells when you see them on the road. Its not rare to see year round driven mazda's that are perhaps 6,7 years old (or more) that'll have noticeable rust. I should take pics of that 08 Mazda 3 I was telling you about next time Im at my bro's house.

Another tip? dont go by Consumer reports. I absolutely hate that mag, and have a difficult time respecting anybodies opinion of who reads that. Anybody will tell you they're extremely biased towards certain manufacturers. Ive had extensive experience with lots of cars/trucks they've given very low reliability ratings for, and yet Ive overlooked countless of each in various fleets of vehicles, and have never had any "issues" they speak of.... not.... one. Some of them were utterly shit beat HARD in the oil patch and the like, still.......

Besides, are you really going to trust the opinion of a group of people that also test appliances, hair dryers and the like? its like.... fuck off guys, you have no business anywhere near a car. :rolleyes:
The killer for me was when they reviewed this one car, and had no tangible pro's on it, but for serious cons?
- Cup holders may spill, headlights are an odd shape....
Its like....

:facepalm:

you have GOT to be kidding me.

[GreyFox]

^Thanks gx12 for your input. Some of those items are nice to know about, even though some don't really concern me too much (blue tooth for example, I rarely use). I'll keep an eye out for those other issues you mentioned when test driving, especially if I find a used 2012 model.

And Graham, I take everything I read, whether it's consumer reports or beyond, with a grain of salt. The crummy thing is I don't know shit all when it comes to the mechanics of cars so I have nothing to rely on other than write ups in magazines or the opinions of people on an internet car forum.

It's tough to weigh some of the intangibles like: does this car have good reliability? Will this car be a complete rust bucket in a matter of 4 years? I can read specs and stats and weigh those against each other, and if I did, the Mazda wins against the Impreza in all areas except AWD...it's cheaper, faster, better handling, more features and more economic on fuel. I think the Focus comes in a very close 2nd when comparing just specs/numbers. So perhaps I'll test drive it just to see how it feels and really try and take the CR tests out of the equation.

If you happen to see that rusted Mazda I would like to see some pics. I'm going to start creeping on ones in random parking lots now as I've never noticed this before, but I've never been specifically looking for it either.

[tch7]

I bought my Mazda 3 new in '06. It's been great to me.
The only non-standard/premature repair that I've required was replacing the serpentine belt. There's a little bit of rust around the wheel wells and where the gravel shoots up (I drive on quite a few gravel roads), but you can't really see it unless you are really closely looking. If I compare it to my family's other recent vehicles (Fords, Toyotas, and a Kia & a Honda), it's been one of the least susceptible to rust and the most reliable. Maybe I've just been lucky.

AWD would be nice, but FWD with good winters works perfectly fine.

I'm often forced to rent vehicles for work, and some comments from this segment from the last few months:
Focus - Did not like it, due in large part to the weird auto transmission. I returned it early to swap for a different car.

Cruze - Well rounded, but being a Chev, and with all the recall issues, I'd never buy one myself.

Jetta - Stale.

[FullFledgedYYC]

I would seriously look at a Jetta 1.8T, that engine has really transformed the car, it's a great drive! Also, the Jetta has a MASSIVE trunk.

If you are interested let me know.

[Rat Fink]

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[heavyD]

Originally posted by Rat Fink
Since auto is a requirement, avoid the Ford Focus at all costs. The auto isn't a conventional auto. It is a dual-clutch manual transmission that a computer shifts. It is still relatively new technology in this application and it is not perfected by any means. Getrag should get shit-kicked for coming up with such a huge disaster for a transmission. I have a feeling when these things are outside of warranty they are going to turn to absolute garbage and most people will try and unload them onto the poor suckers out there. They shift quirky, burn through clutches, and have an input seal design that is prone to failure and contaminates the clutches. There is no way to redesign existing transmissions so all we do is replace the leaky seals with the same seals that are going to leak again, and give you a new clutch (maybe.....Ford actually wants us to try and clean the clutches...WTF?) so it will be a bandaid fix until it happens again - hopefully outside of warranty as far as Ford is concerned so you ditch the car and buy a new one. Other than that piece of shit transmission they are a great car. My 5 speed manual Focus, albeit underpowered (wish I bought a Mustang) is an overall excellent car that will give many years of reliable service......but I made sure to not get that dual clutch pile of crap for a transmission. The Dodge Dart has the same sort of technology from what I gather so I would probably avoid that one as well.

Don't blame Getrag for the crummy transmission. Like the crappy MT82 in the Mustang the DC transmission in the Focus is a Getrag/Ford collaboration where Getrag designs the transmission and supplies some parts and Ford assembles them in China (MT82) and Mexico (DC transmissions). Ford is cutting costs on assembly and it shows in reliability.

[n1zm0]

I think the new Mazdas are something to look at imo, well anything that's the new 'Kodo' styling, it's Mazda building their own cars again from ground up since they left their Ford affair.


Originally posted by Xtrema
Name a compact car that is under $25K with AWD.

Then you know why Subies hold the value better.

a used Suzuki SX4


Originally posted by heavyD
Don't blame Getrag for the crummy transmission. Like the crappy MT82 in the Mustang the DC transmission in the Focus is a Getrag/Ford collaboration where Getrag designs the transmission and supplies some parts and Ford assembles them in China (MT82) and Mexico (DC transmissions). Ford is cutting costs on assembly and it shows in reliability.

This is how I feel about almost every German/Japanese make and model ever manufactured in North America. Any import that has a VIN starting with 1, 2 or 3 I try not to buy normally, I'll always raher go for a J or a W VIN'd car over the former.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by n1zm0


This is how I feel about almost every German/Japanese make and model ever manufactured in North America. Any import that has a VIN starting with 1, 2 or 3 I try not to buy normally, I'll always raher go for a J or a W VIN'd car over the former.

Lots of reliable Honda's and Toyotas are assembled in Canada/US. Not sure why you would avoid them in favour of Japanese built as some of the worst assembled Japanese cars come from Japan like a lot of Subaru's, Mitsubishi's, Suzuki's and the worst Honda I ever owned (delsol) was assembled in Japan.

[n1zm0]

Originally posted by heavyD
Lots of reliable Honda's and Toyotas are assembled in Canada/US. Not sure why you would avoid them in favour of Japanese built as some of the worst assembled Japanese cars come from Japan like a lot of Subaru's, Mitsubishi's, Suzuki's and the worst Honda I ever owned (delsol) was assembled in Japan.

I'd think the delsol was maybe a separate case, i've know those things run +250k from my experience, it's just a CRX/Civic mashup with a hardtop isn't it?

But that's why I said I felt that almost every one of them is lower quality than their Japanese produced counterparts, I know there's good stuff made here (the accords from Marysville and the civics from Alliston namely) but I prefer my vehicle's were manufacturered in their home country personally, my views mainly come from the tank-like construction and reliability my parent's J made cars have shown me over the years as well as when working at the dealership taught me alot, the J Vin'd models had ALOT less TSB/Recalls than the 1&2 Vin'd ones. Also working there for that long I began to notice the little things besides mechanical issues, waiting for the car to go up the hoist, you start looking at how large the panel gaps are on some of that domestically made stuff for example, far more apparent than a J vin, never consistent too.

I also remember when I was a valet before that, we had a used ML320 we had to run to Lonestar because our mechanics couldn't figure something out, I dropped it off and the mechanic taking the keys was sure to let me know about how he felt working on those Alabama made Benz's, something along the lines of 'if its from the fatherland and the VIN starts with anything but a W, it's garbage'

[heavyD]

Originally posted by n1zm0


I'd think the delsol was maybe a separate case, i've know those things run +250k from my experience, it's just a CRX/Civic mashup with a hardtop isn't it?

But that's why I said I felt that almost every one of them is lower quality than their Japanese produced counterparts, I know there's good stuff made here (the accords from Marysville and the civics from Alliston namely) but I prefer my vehicle's were manufacturered in their home country personally, my views mainly come from the tank-like construction and reliability my parent's J made cars have shown me over the years as well as when working at the dealership taught me alot, the J Vin'd models had ALOT less TSB/Recalls than the 1&2 Vin'd ones. Also working there for that long I began to notice the little things besides mechanical issues, waiting for the car to go up the hoist, you start looking at how large the panel gaps are on some of that domestically made stuff for example, far more apparent than a J vin, never consistent too.

I also remember when I was a valet before that, we had a used ML320 we had to run to Lonestar because our mechanics couldn't figure something out, I dropped it off and the mechanic taking the keys was sure to let me know about how he felt working on those Alabama made Benz's, something along the lines of 'if its from the fatherland and the VIN starts with anything but a W, it's garbage'

Lower quality? The parts are all the same. They are just assembled at different facilities over the world. The most reliable Camry's are built in Indiana in a Subaru plant;

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/press-release/3WScQEz/2013-j-d-power-initial-quality-study.htm


Toyota Motor Corporation's Lafayette B Plant (SIA) in Indiana, which produces the Toyota Camry, receives the Platinum Plant Assembly Line Quality Award for producing models that yield the fewest defects or malfunctions. Plant awards are based solely on average levels of defects and malfunctions and exclude design-related problems.

There is no basis that supports your reasoning as reality is that North American assembled cars are just as well put together and in a lot of instances better put together than they are in Japan.

[01RedDX]

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[n1zm0]

Originally posted by heavyD
There is no basis that supports your reasoning as reality is that North American assembled cars are just as well put together and in a lot of instances better put together than they are in Japan.

Yeah it is a good point because the stats are in their favour, but I feel that in the past 15 years or so the N/A made foreign stuff has been lacking, but i'll always stick to my thoughts on that - people have had crappy cars from their original country of origin as well as foreign made ones. But on a higher level, I personally wouldn't want my GTR to be manufacturerd in the Canton Mississippi plant, my M3/M5 to be built at the Spartanburg, NC plant. Why do all the S3s coming to the North American market come from Ingolstadt when they can easily build it with the rest of the A3 sedans in Gyor? If you had the choice to pick an identical VW model made in Mexico, China or Germany, which one would you rather have? :dunno: given the choice i'd want the German-made one.

again just my 2 cents.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Hmmm this really goes against conventional wisdom. In my experience, all the Japan-built vehicles I've owned were by far the most reliable and well-built, but my experience is limited to Honda, Nissan and Lexus.

LOL conventional wisdom. You mean biased opinions. The facts say otherwise that some of the most reliable cars in the world are manufactured in North America. And "reliable" and "Nissan" are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not a fan of unions and have no personal interest in North American automobile assembly but I just hate internet false realities.

[01RedDX]

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[heavyD]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Me too.
http://m.autoblog.com/2013/10/28/consumer-reports-auto-reliability-japan/

So if the heading "Japan Continues to dominate auto reliability" has no basis in reality, my question is why do autoblog and consumer reports publish such blatant lies?

Nice try but that's brand talk not where they were manufactured which is what we are discussing here. The fact is that a lot of Japanese cars these days aren't assembled in Japan and as I've shown the most reliable line is manufactured in the U.S. You need to actually read up on this stuff like me not pull shit out of your ass to support your personal theories.

[01RedDX]

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[freshprince1]

I've owned a Mazda 3, and currently drive a Subaru. Both of mine were/are older models than you're comparing, but since you asked our opinions, here's mine.

Both are great, but I far prefer the Subaru.

The Mazda is great value, excellent bang for your buck. Reliable, sporty (for the class), economical, and lots of features. i really enjoyed my Mazda3. However, after a year, I felt that I wanted more car.

My Subaru is a legacy, so a size up from the class you're looking at, but i still feel it gives a good impression of the ownership of an impreza. Plus, the year i own, the size isn't too much different than current compact sedans.

With the Subaru, you feel like you're getting more of a performance car, and the AWD will make you wonder why you ever went without it. Resale will likely be better, and reliability has been great for me.

If performance is a decision maker, then Subaru is your choice. That, along with the fantastic AWD, makes it an easy suggestion for you.

Buying a Mazda is not a bad decision. But if you're comparing it to a Subaru...go with the Subaru.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


Nah, pretty sure history agrees with me here.

Nah history has nothing to do with today or the Oilers would be Stanley Cup contenders annually. I'm here to help steer people in the right direction and help do away with the internet false truths from people like yourself that simply don't know what they are talking about.

[01RedDX]

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[msommers]

What's the big differences between the Fiesta and Focus - ST variants?

[heavyD]

Originally posted by msommers
What's the big differences between the Fiesta and Focus - ST variants?

Chassis size, rear suspension configuration, and engine size mostly. The Fiesta is more a go-cart like car and probably overall more fun to drive around in the city like the old Suzuki Swift GTi (if anyone can remember that far back). The Focus ST is more on par with a GTI.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by 01RedDX

Oilers standings history has nothing to do with this thread. :dunno:

Exactly my point when you bring up "history" relating to some of the most reliable cars being manufactured today in North America. Did that post fly over your head?:dunno:

[01RedDX]

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[heavyD]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


No, I understand the analogy you're trying to make, but it doesn't apply in this case. Most of what you said isn't true, as Japanese manufacturing is still renowned for quality around the world. Just because that particular Japanese company's American plant got an award doesn't automatically mean that all quality manufacturing takes place exclusively in North America now. You're simply confusing co-variance for correlation.

I hate sidetracking threads like this but please state where I said quality manufacturing takes place exclusively in North America. All I did was provide evidence that North America makes cars just as well as Japan can which was contrary to some poor arguments made by you and someone else that quality was better in Japanese manufactured cars than North American manufactured Japanese cars which is not true. You are pulling shit out of your ass again trying to support your case in an argument you have already lost.

[01RedDX]

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[heavyD]

Originally posted by 01RedDX


But you haven't provided any irrefutable evidence of this since one specific American plant winning an award doesn't validate your claim. It shows they are improving, it shows they are capable of building them just as well, but you need an aggregate or an overall percentage of some sort to compare quality issues affecting all NA-built vs all Japan-built vehicles. Until then, I will only agree to disagree.


Oh but what about all the award winning Honda Odyssey that is exclusively in Canada? Or the Honda Civic also produced in Alliston (plant 1) that was awarded top marks by J.D. Power for initial quality? Bet you didn't even know that CR-V's are made in Canada. You do realize that Honda is still top 5 in reliability right?

What's this? Another manufacturing award for a North American plant? Say it isn't so;

http://canadianautodealer.ca/2013/06/honda-canada-receives-j-d-power-award-for-manufacturing/

What's this? An article detailing that Canadian Assembly plants rank amongst the worlds best? Can't be as I heard by a random poster on the internet that only Japanese plant are the best.

http://www.autonet.ca/en/2013/06/24/canadian-assembly-plants-rank-among-worlds-best

You see what I'm getting at here? The common denominator is that it doesn't matter where the cars are build it's all about the brand (Honda and Toyota for the most part). I imagine Honda could even make reliable cars built out of Mexico and China if they built facilities there. Canadians should never look at a Canadian built car with shame as we build some of the best.

LOL it's like arguing with my wife lol. Even when she's dead wrong she's right.:nut:

I agree we should stop sidetracking the thread as I think I've proven my point for any rational, non-biased thinkers that go through this thread.

[01RedDX]

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