Salt on Calgary streets?

[Zhariak]

So someone correct me if I'm wrong, but for the longest time I thought Calgary never used salt on the roads during winter? I thought that was one of the perks of living in this fine city, and they only used sand, gravel, and chemical... :)

Now rewind to the first snowfall this winter season, I remember them saying all over the news that they had to use salt due to the mild temperatures right below zero. I remember this caused a stir on some radio shows, and think I even remember a discussion or to on beyond. Then I heard 2 days ago in a city and roads interview that they are now using "A mixture of Salt, salt, and gravel".

Was the no salt thing a myth before? Or has the city started to regularly use salt now? I'm hoping they didn't do this as a "cost saving measure".

[Modelexis]

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/Roads/Pages/Road-Maintenance/Snow-and-ice-control/Salt-management-plan-FAQs.aspx

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/Roads/Pages/Road-Maintenance/Snow-and-ice-control/SNIC-policy-FAQs.aspx

5. How much road salt does The City of Calgary use?

The City applies approximately 30,000 to 40,000 tonnes of road salts annually (removed propaganda).

[Disoblige]

Car had so much salt residue on it last week from the snow. Had to wash it off quick. Looked so nasty.

[btimbit]

http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/Roads/Pages/Road-Maintenance/Snow-and-ice-control/Salt-management-plan-FAQs.aspx

Road salts include sodium chloride (NaCl), calcium chloride (CaCl2), potassium chloride (KCl) and magnesium chloride (MgCl2). The City of Calgary only uses sodium chloride and calcium chloride.

[ExtraSlow]

Calgary has always used saly on the roads, but they generaly use less of it them places in Ontario and Quebec.
Also, in very cold temps, they use very little, or none, as it isn't effective below a certain point.

In warmer weathr, they use liquid salt, then they change to solid salt/gravel mix, then to gravel.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by Zhariak
So someone correct me if I'm wrong, but for the longest time I thought Calgary never used salt on the roads during winter?

Was the no salt thing a myth before? Or has the city started to regularly use salt now? I'm hoping they didn't do this as a "cost saving measure".

Where on earth did you hear this? As said, they've ALWAYS used salt. Haven't you ever wondered why the streets are so white, even after the snow is gone? Or why there's so many rusty cars around? Lol.

[btimbit]

I've heard from lots of places that the city didn't use salt as well, a lot of people seem to think that Alberta as a whole only uses sand.:nut:

[lilmira]

For corrosion, the low humidity here probably helps a bit compared to the east.

We should tell people that we don't just use sand, we use the OIL SAND, yeeha!

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by lilmira
For corrosion, the low humidity here probably helps a bit compared to the east.

We should tell people that we don't just use sand, we use the OIL SAND, yeeha!

Bwahaha, for the win! :)

[benyl]

The use of sand is a myth too. It's always fucking gravel.

[Tik-Tok]

Originally posted by benyl
The use of sand is a myth too. It's always fucking gravel.

Gravel? Since when? All I ever see are boulders.

[joseph]

:werd: Haven't had my car a full year yet and I have 4 chips and a crack on my windshield.

[Willie Bobo]

Calgary has always used salt, but what's new (within the past four years) is the use/spraying of calcium chloride which makes the roads stay wet. It does a great job of melting the snow, but is nasty for everything else, including vehicles and civic infrastructure. I wish they'd abolish this crap.

http://www.ffwdweekly.com/article/news-views/news/calary-de-icing-roads-with-suspect-salt-solution-5249/

[Zhariak]

Originally posted by Willie Bobo
Calgary has always used salt, but what's new (within the past four years) is the use/spraying of calcium chloride which makes the roads stay wet. It does a great job of melting the snow, but is nasty for everything else, including vehicles and civic infrastructure. I wish they'd abolish this crap.

http://www.ffwdweekly.com/article/news-views/news/calary-de-icing-roads-with-suspect-salt-solution-5249/

I hate that shit... The Esky drives AWESOME on ice/snow, etc... As soon as I get on that Calcium Chloride shit, I'm slipping and sliding everywhere...

[whydontchathen]

Back in the 80's I too heard "Calgary doesn't use salt". And I'm not convinced that wasn't true, in the past.

Now is different, now they do use salt. But they didn't used to.

[Willie Bobo]

Originally posted by whydontchathen
Back in the 80's I too heard "Calgary doesn't use salt". And I'm not convinced that wasn't true, in the past.

Now is different, now they do use salt. But they didn't used to.

Are you sure about this?

The Montreal Gazette - Feb 3, 1982
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-DsyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=66QFAAAAIBAJ&dq=calgary%20road%20salt&pg=1126%2C691162



(found this digging up the FFWD article)

[soupey]

wish we could be like quebec and force winter tires...then they wouldn't have to budget as much salt/gravel use and just have the damn roads shovelled...put an end to white roads and broken windshields.

[firebane]

Originally posted by soupey
wish we could be like quebec and force winter tires...then they wouldn't have to budget as much salt/gravel use and just have the damn roads shovelled...put an end to white roads and broken windshields.

LOL :nut:

Winter tires aren't going to the be the savior to the ice on the road or packed snow that causes slippery conditions.

There needs to be a way to rid this.

[khanan]

Originally posted by soupey
wish we could be like quebec and force winter tires...then they wouldn't have to budget as much salt/gravel use and just have the damn roads shovelled...put an end to white roads and broken windshields.

Idk if they will be able to shovel every single time the snow falls, it would be better to use gravel/salt since it will stay there once and can help for the next snowfall, limiting it's use the next time around and so on...

About the winter tires, I do agree with you as I have seen too many people slide, even without a lot of snow. But in a city filled with more bad drivers than good ones that isn't gonna do much of a difference.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Willie Bobo
Calgary has always used salt, but what's new (within the past four years) is the use/spraying of calcium chloride which makes the roads stay wet. It does a great job of melting the snow, but is nasty for everything else, including vehicles and civic infrastructure. I wish they'd abolish this crap.

http://www.ffwdweekly.com/article/news-views/news/calary-de-icing-roads-with-suspect-salt-solution-5249/

Yep it's only been in the last few years that we have seen all this white residue on roads. If you park your car in a garage (especially heated) you need to wash this stuff off in a timely manner as it will accelerate rust.

As others said the term "sand" is used pretty loosely as it's basically crushed rocks and depending on the batch some are flat out rocks and some fairly fine. It's not like the US where they actually use real sand in some places.

I realize the city has to do this because half of Calgary drivers can barely drive under perfect circumstances but what ticks me off is when we get a light dusting and these guys in the trucks are pouring this stuff all over at intersections like it's a blizzard or something. They really only need to sand during large snowfall but this city does it in full force after a few snowflakes which IMO is wasteful and needless use of taxpayer money.

Also I never understood why the city feels it needs to gravel parking lots like it does. Nobody drives fast in parking lots so there's no collision prevention and when's the last time anyone got stuck in a parking lot? Typically people only get stuck at intersections or inclines and hills. Don't recall anyone ever getting stuck in a parking lot stall. Again completely wasteful and a waste of taxpayer money.

IMO the city needs some new blood in the roads maintenance department as they waste far too much taxpayer money in the winters considering how little snow this city really gets compared to other centers in Canada.

[btimbit]

^I agree, I always get the sense that half the time they're plowing/'sanding' just for the sake of using their budget. Even last week I saw a plow with the plow down on bare pavement, sparking along at 60 km/h

[Alak]

We need to have a beyond science fair. See who comes up with a weather machine.

[M.alex]

I've heard the last 2-3 years we use more salt than Ontario now :/

[jwslam]

We should all just live under the dome

[whydontchathen]

Originally posted by Willie Bobo


Are you sure about this?

The Montreal Gazette - Feb 3, 1982
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-DsyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=66QFAAAAIBAJ&dq=calgary%20road%20salt&pg=1126%2C691162



(found this digging up the FFWD article)

yeah, I'm sure that's what I heard. Not sayin' it was a fact, but that was the scuttlebut back then.....

[Idiot Stick]

Heated roads. The only way. Rip up all the streets, pave them again with a powered grid in the asphalt. Bam! You guys are all rich, make it happen! Haha

On that note, it's a common myth out here that Calgary doesn't use salt and that a car from Calgary is as rust free as a car in Florida or California. And of course you can't tell someone they are wrong without being ripped to shreds about something completely irrelevant either.

[Maxt]

Originally posted by btimbit
^I agree, I always get the sense that half the time they're plowing/'sanding' just for the sake of using their budget. Even last week I saw a plow with the plow down on bare pavement, sparking along at 60 km/h
I should have saved it for a post in a thread like this but I was to lazy. I had dashcam video of C o C doing their Echelon plowing technique on perfectly dry pavement in rush hour with about a km of backed up traffic behind them.. I have dashcam overload now, there is just so much silliness in traffic everyday..

[triplep]

Instead of spraying on chemicals, why don't they use beet juice? I remember watching Highway through Hell, and the road maintenance crews out there spray beet juice all over the Coq. as it greatly increases the temperature that water will freeze at. I guess it is effective up to -25. So I think it would help here in Calgary.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/340233

[btimbit]

Originally posted by Maxt

I should have saved it for a post in a thread like this but I was to lazy. I had dashcam video of C o C doing their Echelon plowing technique on perfectly dry pavement in rush hour with about a km of backed up traffic behind them.. I have dashcam overload now, there is just so much silliness in traffic everyday..

Jesus Christ. Yet, doesn't surprise me.

[ExtraSlow]

Originally posted by triplep
Instead of spraying on chemicals, why don't they use beet juice? I remember watching Highway through Hell, and the road maintenance crews out there spray beet juice all over the Coq. as it greatly increases the temperature that water will freeze at. I guess it is effective up to -25. So I think it would help here in Calgary.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/340233
The reason beet juice does that is because it's full of "chemicals" just like the salts that they use now. Just because it comes from a vegetable doesn't mean it's chemical free.

[SR54RNR]

I can't speak for the City of Calgary specifically, but Edmonton is using a fixed ratio of calcium chloride to material (sand). The sanding/plow trucks are programmed with a fixed ratio, so that the operator cant go nuts with the calcium chloride. The calcium chloride is in liquid form on the trucks, and is sprayed on the sand material as it leaves the truck, and cannot be applied without the sand material. I believe we are using 3mm crushed rock.

The trucks come from the factory with the ability to let the operator control the amount of calcium chloride he puts down.. some cities, such as Edmonton, lock-out this feature in order to try to cut down on the use of this stuff.

If the City of Calgary is ISO certified, like Edmonton, then chances are they are using a fixed application rate as well. Less Calcium chloride = less rusty vehicles.

[ExtraSlow]

Calgary has some trucks that can spray the liquid salt solution without putting down the gravel at all. Not sure if the operator controls that, or if it's pre-set at the shop.

[Ven]

I did some testing with the province using beet juice on overpasses. Works good and it's a viable alternative once costs come down. Whole different bucket of environmental issues and consequences when/if it becomes mainstream and ends up in the river. Everything on the road goes in the water supply, there is no treatment system for overland drainage.

Material rates are always adjustable by the operator in every city, Edmonton included. Road conditions are different from area to area and having a fixed application would leave some areas unsafe and others with greater environmental risk and material wa$te. The shift foreman makes the call as to how much material is applied and to what ratios. Temperature plays a big part too.

Scraping icepan creates sparks, the road might look mostly dry but the surface temp and moisture alarms are going off. When snow is predicted and hits that area untreated it's instant ice formation. By scraping the icepan it flash heats and groves the surface and lets material get to the base layer and stay there. You'll have a wet road instead of an icy one. It buys time by keeping that area safe until the next truck pass.

I used to lose my mind at these plow drivers sparking the blade down what looked like a dry or almost dry road. Now that I have worked in the industry I know the reasons why, but indeed the optics look bad. Dry blading a road is typically as quick trip to the supervisors office, the cost of blades and labour is not cheap. The only reason I could see a blade down dry is if the down pressure was set to 0 and it was for equipment set up or testing. A carbide blade will last for weeks with 0 down pressure on a dry road, but still spark like crazy.

[SR54RNR]

Originally posted by Ven

Material rates are always adjustable by the operator in every city, Edmonton included. Road conditions are different from area to area and having a fixed application would leave some areas unsafe and others with greater environmental risk and material wa$te. The shift foreman makes the call as to how much material is applied and to what ratios. Temperature plays a big part .

Actually we were both wrong, I just re-read what I typed out. The calcium chloride pumps are fixed-displacement pumps, set to xx litres per hour.. The operators have control of the application rate of the material, but the calcium pumps are on/off and will only put out a certan number of litres per hour, not adjustable by the operator. So the ratio of sand material to calcium varies on the application rate of the material.

This is how it works for edm, I can't comment on Calgary as I have never worked on any of calgarys equipment

[Nitron88]

Originally posted by heavyD


Yep it's only been in the last few years that we have seen all this white residue on roads. If you park your car in a garage (especially heated) you need to wash this stuff off in a timely manner as it will accelerate rust.

As others said the term "sand" is used pretty loosely as it's basically crushed rocks and depending on the batch some are flat out rocks and some fairly fine. It's not like the US where they actually use real sand in some places.

I realize the city has to do this because half of Calgary drivers can barely drive under perfect circumstances but what ticks me off is when we get a light dusting and these guys in the trucks are pouring this stuff all over at intersections like it's a blizzard or something. They really only need to sand during large snowfall but this city does it in full force after a few snowflakes which IMO is wasteful and needless use of taxpayer money.

Also I never understood why the city feels it needs to gravel parking lots like it does. Nobody drives fast in parking lots so there's no collision prevention and when's the last time anyone got stuck in a parking lot? Typically people only get stuck at intersections or inclines and hills. Don't recall anyone ever getting stuck in a parking lot stall. Again completely wasteful and a waste of taxpayer money.

IMO the city needs some new blood in the roads maintenance department as they waste far too much taxpayer money in the winters considering how little snow this city really gets compared to other centers in Canada.

You have my full support to apply as head of this department, I like your "do not do" platforms!

[Ven]

Originally posted by SR54RNR


Actually we were both wrong, I just re-read what I typed out. The calcium chloride pumps are fixed-displacement pumps, set to xx litres per hour.. The operators have control of the application rate of the material, but the calcium pumps are on/off and will only put out a certan number of litres per hour, not adjustable by the operator. So the ratio of sand material to calcium varies on the application rate of the material.

This is how it works for edm, I can't comment on Calgary as I have never worked on any of calgarys equipment

Actually no, you're just wrong. Litres per lane kilometre are completely adjustable by the operator, just like the dry only material. Would you like to go for a ride-along?

[SR54RNR]

Originally posted by Ven


Actually no, you're just wrong. Litres per lane kilometre are completely adjustable by the operator, just like the dry only material. Would you like to go for a ride-along?

wow, you must be an engineer.


what you must have missed...

This is how it works for edm, I can't comment on Calgary as I have never worked on any of calgarys equipment



The city of Edmonton builds its own sander bodies in-house. We use the Rexroth control heads, but the adjustable liquid functions are locked out, by request.

[speedog]

Originally posted by SR54RNR
wow, you must be an engineer.
So he gives an honest answer and you have to be a wad.

Nice.

I find it kind of interesting hearing from some people in the know as it has educated me as to why we see certain things being done the way they are - the optics of the situation are apparently much different from the reality of what's really going on.

[heavyD]

Originally posted by btimbit
^I agree, I always get the sense that half the time they're plowing/'sanding' just for the sake of using their budget. Even last week I saw a plow with the plow down on bare pavement, sparking along at 60 km/h

They have shifts and when these guys (or ladies) are out in the trucks they feel they have to at times do something even if it's not required so you will still see the odd truck sanding in some areas even during a Chinook.

[suntan]

I think the city used to use only KCl but's ludicrously expensive so they now use NaCl as well.