Landlord not giving security deposit back. Court tips?

[Seth1968]

Cole's notes:

- No walk in report was done.
- The suite wasn't cleaned.
- No lease or rental agreement.

On top of all that, the landlord is a real douche, so I want to take him for all I can get.

I know he can't keep a dime, given that there is no inspection report, but I'm just looking for some court tips.

For example:

- Can I sue for my time involved, court costs, and the time it took to clean the place?

Thanks.

[Seth1968]

Sorry. I forgot to mention that I'll be the one representing the tenant in court.

[CompletelyNumb]

Did the tenant live in the suite, or is this a case of paying for the first month and entering the unit to find it like this? Or breaking a lease?

A signed lease isn't a requirement, a verbal agreement will hold up in court. I've gone through this before. With no move in inspection, it will be hard for them to prove any damages are linked to the tenant. As long as the place is moderately clean when he moves out.

[rob the knob]

http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/869.cfm

[Seth1968]

There is no lease or rental agreement, and the tenant lived there for 4 months.

Thanks for the replies and the link:)

[FraserB]

I'd get someone who knows what they're doing if this does got to court.

Start with the link Rob posted, they'll tell you what can and can't be done.

[Seth1968]

Ok, sounds good.

Thanks again.

[revelations]

Without any paperwork it means you have almost zero case. How does the arbitrator know who lived where when? Does the tenant have a bill under that address by chance?

I could just as easily be the landlord, you have no proof otherwise.:dunno:

[Type_S1]

He's keeping the DAMAGE deposit likely because the place was damaged. I don't have any sympathy for tenants talking about "douche" landlords. He owns the place, respect it. Your a douche for doing anything he doesn't see fit to the place.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by revelations
Without any paperwork it means you have almost zero case. How does the arbitrator know who lived where when? Does the tenant have a bill under that address by chance?

I could just as easily be the landlord, you have no proof otherwise.:dunno:

Good point.

Fortunately the tenant has signed rent receipts with the address, as well as bills?

[FraserB]

How long did they agree to stay? Having receipts could go both ways, it might prove tenancy, but can also show that there is a breached lease in play.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by FraserB
How long did they agree to stay? Having receipts could go both ways, it might prove tenancy, but can also show that there is a breached lease in play.

There is no lease or rental agreement.

The tenant was there for 4 months, at which point the landlord told him he had to move because his daughter wanted the place.

The landlord did not issue any written notice, but I guess that didn't matter as the tenant planned on moving anyway, due to things like the landlord not fixing things, and entering the apartment illegally, etc.

[FraserB]

Do they have a receipt for the security deposit?

[Seth1968]

Yes. It's for $800.00 and is signed, dated, etc.

[Go4Long]

Originally posted by FraserB
I'd get someone who knows what they're doing if this does got to court.


^This.

If you're going to the internet for legal advice you have no place being a legal representative for anyone.

[TomcoPDR]

Was this a shared accommendiation situation? Where the tenant was a roommate?

[codetrap]

Originally posted by Seth1968
Sorry. I forgot to mention that I'll be the one representing the tenant in court.

Step one, get a real lawyer.... and the rest will take care of itself.

[GTS4tw]

Not worth getting a lawyer for $800.

[Go4Long]

It's also not worth trying to "represent" someone by going on beyond for advice...the person that he is "representing" could likely do just as much good/harm him/herself

[GTS4tw]

Originally posted by Go4Long
It's also not worth trying to "represent" someone by going on beyond for advice...the person that he is "representing" could likely do just as much good/harm him/herself

True, but at least he is asking for advice, small claims court is there for non-lawyers to plead their cases. Everyone says "get a lawyer" for anything legal related, and that is good advice, but for $800!? No. Just fight it yourself and learn something about "the system". If you are in the right, and have taken appropriate steps to protect yourself, then you'll be amazed at how easy it is.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by GTS4tw


True, but at least he is asking for advice, small claims court is there for non-lawyers to plead their cases. Everyone says "get a lawyer" for anything legal related, and that is good advice, but for $800!? No. Just fight it yourself and learn something about "the system". If you are in the right, and have taken appropriate steps to protect yourself, then you'll be amazed at how easy it is.

Agreed. The whole point of small claims court is to make it simple for the average citizen to represent themselves.

This isn't a murder rap lol, it's a clear cut civil case. But anyway, last night the landlord gave back $500.00 of the $800, claiming $300.00 for cleaning. However, I was there on the move in (it wasn't cleaned), and on the move out (condition pretty much exactly the same as the move in).

Tomco, no just a single tenant.

[BrknFngrs]

Any idea why a walk through wasn't done and the condition signed off on when they moved in? Seems like a great (common sense) way to protect the tenant, no?

[CompletelyNumb]

The tenant was clearly ignorant and now has learned a valuable lesson and hopefully will cover their ass in the future.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by BrknFngrs
Any idea why a walk through wasn't done and the condition signed off on when they moved in? Seems like a great (common sense) way to protect the tenant, no?

The walk in report definitely protects the landlord, but I'm not sure how it possibly could protect the tenant, as without a walk in report, the security deposit cannot be withheld for damage.

At move in, the landlord was supposed to be there for the walk in, but he didn't show up, and didn't return calls.

[codetrap]

Well.. let us know how it plays out man. I'm glad you got the $500 back so far.

[revelations]

For 300$, you have to ask if its worth the time and headache to actually go through with the court system.

Send him a notice to appear at least - but I wouldnt personally pursue the matter in a court setting for that amount - unless you had some free time.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by revelations
For 300$, you have to ask if its worth the time and headache to actually go through with the court system.

Send him a notice to appear at least - but I wouldnt personally pursue the matter in a court setting for that amount - unless you had some free time.

I've considered that Rev.

I'll be calling that Service Alberta service that was posted. Problem is, I'm in Lethbridge, and it looks like they only have Edmonton and Calgary offices. Certainly not worth $300.00 to what will amount to be a full day.

Depending on what Service Alberta recommends, I was indeed going to send a registered notice to appear, but if I remember correctly, that"s $125 just for that. I'll find out for sure tomorrow if I can recoup that cost if I win (Which I'm sure I will).

[triplep]

So the tenants left the place messy? And they are upset that it cost them $300? Jeez, seems like a douche bag move by the tenants, if the land lord had to clean the place up after them.

It is there fault for moving into a messy place, they should have requested the land lord to clean it before they moved in but they didn't. If he is keeping $300, because the place was messy then it is their fault for not cleaning it up.

Do they have pictures of the place when they moved in? Pictures of how they left it after? Something smells fishy.

[AndyL]

Dont even waste your time with the LTAB / RTAB / Whatever they call it - decisions are not binding - it's basically a mediation service - you end up having to go to court anyway - so why waste the time with some kangaroo court first?

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by triplep
So the tenants left the place messy? And they are upset that it cost them $300? Jeez, seems like a douche bag move by the tenants, if the land lord had to clean the place up after them.

It is there fault for moving into a messy place, they should have requested the land lord to clean it before they moved in but they didn't. If he is keeping $300, because the place was messy then it is their fault for not cleaning it up.

Do they have pictures of the place when they moved in? Pictures of how they left it after? Something smells fishy.

Did you read the whole thread?:)

Should have got pictures, but that's not going to matter. There are two other people that were present at the move in (one of which was myself), that know the place was disgusting at move in. It took hours to clean it up.

[CompletelyNumb]

You also said they moved out leaving it as they found it. If it was unacceptable during the move in, then it was unacceptable in the move out as well. In all likelyhood he took the last tenants DD just like yours, and simply left it for the next guy. I would have refused to move in, landlords do legally have to clean the place before they had over keys.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by CompletelyNumb
You also said they moved out leaving it as they found it. If it was unacceptable during the move in, then it was unacceptable in the move out as well. In all likelyhood he took the last tenants DD just like yours, and simply left it for the next guy. I would have refused to move in, landlords do legally have to clean the place before they had over keys.

Without going into irrelevant details, I wish it were that simple. But I will say one thing about the landlord. He's about 70 to 80 years old, and I assure you, is suffering from the onset of some sort of dementia.

Bottom line:

1) The unit was not cleaned, we spent hours cleaning the place and throwing out left behind debris. Aside from the tenant, there are two people that can confirm this. I just need to find out if their statements need to be signed by a witness.

2) There is no walk in inspection for the reasons I already stated. As such, no amount of the security deposit can be held for cleaning.

There is no doubt that I'll win the case. I only started this thread because I have no confidence in a front line court clerk to answer CIVIL COURT questions such as:

1) Can I sue for the court submission costs?

2) Can I sue for personal time (money) to pursue this?

[englishbob]

I've only ever been awarded court costs and never lost wages etc and my cases were against non- payment which in small claims I'd guess would be the same?
On a side note I've lost as many times as I've won once even when the other party never showed.

[FraserB]

Court fees are usually awarded as part of the settlement, you can't sue for lost wages as they relate to your time. So pretty much all the prep and going to court is your own dime.

[mr2mike]

$300 to have the place cleaned. Pretty reasonable if he had to get the carpets cleaned. Just look up the prices of carpet cleaners.
Or just to get professional cleaners in to do a top to bottom scrub would easily be $300.

The cleaning/damage is stuff that is beyond normal wear and tear. If the stove wasn't cleaned up or the bathroom not cleaned up to a reasonable manner, it's his right to clean.
Your client could say, I'll go back and clean it and maybe he'll get the money back but sounds like it's already been done.

[Seth1968]

I just got off the phone with a rep from Calgary's Residential Tenancy Dispute Resolution.

I can't use the service, as the issue is occurring in Lethbridge, but I did get this info:

- The service is indeed legally binding. In this regard, they have the same legal authority as a provincial judge.

- If the tenant wins the case, then court costs are included in the settlement.

- If the tenant wins the case, then lost wages and the like are included in the settlement to a degree in which the judge deems reasonable.

[FraserB]

Go read the actual literature on small claims. The RTA person is most likely interpreting lost wages as wages lost directly because of the issues, not taking time off to pursue the matter in court.

[englishbob]

What he said.
Like I said earlier I've lost 'Clear cut' cases before.

[Seth1968]

Originally posted by FraserB
Go read the actual literature on small claims. The RTA person is most likely interpreting lost wages as wages lost directly because of the issues, not taking time off to pursue the matter in court.

Damn it Fraser, I'll look into that:)

What could possibly be the reasoning behind that?

Again, thanks for the input guys.

[dexlargo]

Can't you complain to Service Alberta and get them to force the landlord to pay? I may be confusing them with the dispute board, but I thought Service Alberta also enforced the RTA on clear breaches.

On court costs - this is usually just the filing fees, not the costs you incurred to get legal advice, etc.

On recovering cleaning expenses - no. Need to know why?

One question:

Why is the landlord withholding the security deposit?

This actually matters. While the Act does read that security deposits may not be withheld if no move-in and move-out inspection were performed, in reality, if the landlord is owed money for some other provable reason (rent, intentional damage, some other debt), no court is going to force him to pay back the security deposit.